Match Up Discussion: Meta Knight ~

[Steel]

i love this thread, even tho emblem i have to correct you.



this is easily marth's worst match up.




NONE of his "marth" **** works here my friend. and if you play a patient, camping metaknight who waits for your lag and doesn't even throw out any of his non-lagging attacks it is the most annoying **** ever to exist. btw falling f-air should only be done against a metaknight at mid-range to long range, if he's a few character lengths away from you he can dash attack the landing lag like sheik can

Falling fair doesn't have any landing lag. You can just spot dodge, shield, roll, among other things as soon as you land. Falling fair into Dtilt, dancing blade, or jab works as well.

EL is right, you have to camp MK. Don't blindly rush in - stay back and be patient. Let him approach you and keep him away with tilts and fairs. Don't forget you have the grab release as well. This sets up to AT LEAST free hits, often times at higher percents you will kill him.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Another thing that works well against glide attacks is dolphin slash (and just against MK in general).

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Metaknight is a interesting match.

Reminds me a lot of Melee's Sheik.
More difficult edgeguard, more difficult to recovery against, pretty predictable game, faster offensive tactics, and not too many defensive options (MK doesn't even have a projectile too), and annoying grab game.

Actually in this match exclusively Marth needs to fight camping about the entire match.
You can't be offensive unless this is really really safe to do like Pivotting Grab him.
And you don't have to be even so, Metaknight will always be close to you. Meta needs to be closer.


Marth needs to close his gaps more than actually be worried about getting hit for a Metaknight.
Metaknight's combos and pressure are actually a lot illusionary, most of his attacks doesn't deal too much damage. Basically saying one hit dealed by Marth is about the same damage of Metaknight's three~four hits. Marth should worry about not lost your midair jump in the middle of them and get off stage at first place. Most Marths lost their stocks more due a poor DI or a loss of a Midair Jump than actually be at KO damage range.

Forward Aerial IASA cancelled landings with Jab/Dtilt/Dancing Blade helps closing the defensive gaps as well too.

Metaknight can be patient too, this is true.
But his game becomes more limited to Forward Tilts to deal damage in Marth.
This is occasionally a good idea to mix with his high speed game, but not to be his main way of dealing damage.

The only thing that is actually annoying in Metaknight is his stupid fast grab game (also with Down Tilt setting up to this). Even so, you can combat this with retreating Aerials, or even grab game too.
Also grab release doesn't allow that Metaknight lives further in absurd percentages.

Its more an even match than I usually thought in my opinion.
Its a so boring match.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Instead of just saying I'm wrong you need to contribute what you have discovered. I described what to do if MK tries to attack. If you have faced MK's that try to camp you back then you need to post what works from your own experience, not just shoot me down.

I'm also posting from my own tourney experience so the stuff I'm saying does work, but if you have more to add then you need to say so.

Just saying that a camping MK is annoying does nothing.

Anyway, it is Marth's worst match-up but it is by no means a bad match-up.

Marth is at disadvantage but from what I can tell it's only 4/6 which is fine.

I did contribute what I have discovered thus far involving the match, falling f-air should be done at a certain range because a well timed dash attack can still smack you in your landing lag. And Steel2nd, yes it does. Go look for yourself. Although it is minimal, falling f-air auto-cancelled still has landing lag that can be punished by "dart" type attacks. My opinion, which I stated earlier, also seems to be shared by many. Who is shooting you down? Lol relax xD


Edit: I also tested Marth's jump, which starts a little later (from what I recall) in comparison to his melee jump. It appears Metaknights hitbox for his foot when he does the dash attack extends slightly above his actual foot so you can also get tagged sometimes just jumping. Just something to keep in mind

 

[Emblem Lord]

Land lag from the fair is the same as Melee at 7 frames. It's EXTREMELY difficult to punish.

If you fear being punished you should just roll back.

And if you are still being punished for it, then you really need to work on re-adjusting your spacing. It's primarily used as a wall and a baiting tool.

You want MK to attempt to punish you can so you can get in a free hit.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

If you read my post, I said falling f-air should be done at a certain range. I am aware that is difficult to punish, hence me only mentioning two dart attacks that I've seen capable of doing so. If you're within about 2-3 Marth's (rofl it's how I measure distance in brawl) within a waiting Metaknight (as they so often do) I would avoid a falling f-air, unless they were dashing at you while you were still in the air (falling away) then you could come down on their dash attack/grab with it. But it's dangerous to bait at that distance against someone who is intentionally waiting for your landing lag.

 

[Emblem Lord]

While Marth should mix-up between camping and going on the offensive everyone once and awhile. If MK starts waiting you need to use your good aerial movement to mess with your spacing.

And sometimes when they don't expect it you can rush in with Dancing Blade and they won't even shield. You can also get a grab or a pivot grab if you are close enough.

This is just yomi layering and mix-up games though. But it's important since you don't want to get predictable.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

VERY VERY HBDKFZYHGUSAIUES IMPORTANT: DO NOT... I REPEAT.. DO NOTTTTTTTTTTTTT BE FOOLED BY THE TORNADO LANDING ANIMATION/LAG!!!


I'm sure many of you are aware that if Metaknight finishes his Tornado at a certain height he can land with no lag. However, the actual height for this is deceptive as ****. When Metaknight lands from a tornado don't always try to rush him immediately, otherwise you will have a. a downsmash waiting for you as you dash in with your opening frames unable to shield or b. get sidestepped when you try to grab thinking he's open.


More often than not I've been trying to wait to see what the Metaknight tends to do after they Tornado - Downsmash, sidestep, roll, tornado again (gay) etc.



Patience is a virtue


Patience is key

 

[Emblem Lord]

It just depends how much MK mashes the Tornado. If he mashed it to the fullest he will lag after the Tornado. If not then he will not lag no mater how high he is.

You just have to take note of how long his tornado was active and then decide whether or not you can actually punish him.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

What I'm saying is, the lag is VERY minimal and in being minimal, EXTREMELY deceptive. You will think you can punish him when really you can't, that's why my post is a warning to be patient about it.

 

[Shaya]

I've been playing against MetaKnight with Marth quite often recently.

His MetaKnight is a beast who puts Marth in a horrible position. (KO's wise it's about 2:3, but wins wise it feels a lot more like 3:7).
Meta Knight can easily 3 stock a Marth, while in the opposite situation is near impossible.
MK barely even needs to use his tilts against Marth, all he needs is good air game and an approach to get you into the air, as well as his dsmash and edgeguard techinques.

MK's dsmash/fsmash outranges all of Marth's attacks (perhaps not SB), and has very little lag. If one does not evade it or perfect shield it is very hard to follow up against it.
One can not rely on counter at all for anything but his B-moves. It must never be used in the air.
N-Air I believe is the best approach to MK, and found it to be one of the only viable attacks I could use to punish MK. It's two strikes gives Marth the 'buff' he needs, the first strike seemingly cancelled out some of MK's attacks, leaving the second one to hit.

The hardest thing about MK is getting into range for your own attacks without being in a lot of danger yourself. As I previously said the main ways I find is fast falling nairs, and dtilts. Their speed leaves you safe in most cases, and his nair can send MK very far and kill. Dancing Blade is fantastic as well, but if predicted just doesn't have the range, possibly resulting in a smack by MK.

Next thing I came to notice is that Marth has the advantage if MK is directly above him. Usmash is often hard to hit with, but utilt and uair while MK is above you I believe outrange MK. Uair was a very good approach to MK where there is a platform stage. Unfortunately MK can very easily move around the stage so being below him is not easy. One should be afraid of an MK's glide attack while trying this approach, depending on your position you may still win out, but probably not.

Also, pretty much any aerial attack Marth uses against MK one should rarely ever push forward, only ever downwards/backwards. It's not optimum but I feel is the only way to keep yourself safe. One needs to space themselves appropriately to get a tip'd smash; all the while keeping themselves out of his range.

As someone already said, MK vs Marth is a boring match. One or both can run away all day, unfortunately for Marth if he is the one who changes to aggressive, whatever MK's position is, will most likely be slaughtered.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Alot of what you said is just untrue.

MK's smashes don't outrange Marth's tilts.

Also MK can 3 stock Marth when Marth plays dumb or doesn't know the match-up. The key is to know the match-up and be patient.

Marth has less room for error which is very true, but once you know what to do it gets ALOT better,

 

[Shaya]

Alot of what you said is just untrue.

MK's smashes don't outrange Marth's tilts.

I don't know how many times I tried a dtilt or ftilt (even though I know they can move you slightly forward) to MISS then just get downsmashed without the MK moving at all. How far is this range between the two attacks?

Marth has less room for error which is very true, but once you know what to do it gets ALOT better,

This is why I feel Marth can really still turn the tides on MK overtime. MK is mostly predictable, just overall its the fact he is all-round godly.

 

[Jibbles]

I find it very odd that the MK boards actually thinks the match up is in Marth's favor, and then this being the opposite.

 

[VietGeek]

I don't know how many times I tried a dtilt or ftilt (even though I know they can move you slightly forward) to MISS then just get downsmashed without the MK moving at all. How far is this range between the two attacks?

There is little range difference. Dtilt out ranges Dsmash slightly if you're in tipper position. Spacing against MK is very strict. Ftilt out ranges Dsmash barely as well. If you whiff a Ftilt even slightly while moving, you'll get Dsmashed. If you whiff a Dtilt, just don't do a second one and instead use the IASA frames to roll away (both situations are assuming you are too FAR away, not to close).

Fsmash however, seems to have the same range as Ftilt and Dtilt. If you are in range for them to tipper, you're in range for a Fsmash in the face. However, Fsmash is seldom used so that's not much of an issue.

At least, I could never out space MK's Fsmash with a Ftilt or Dtilt.

As for how bad the match-up is: Even if you just camp and punish with Counter, Dancing Blade, release grabs to Fair, retreating Fairs and Dolphin Slash, etc., you can still get most of the better MKs down to the last stock at least. To get three stocked by a MK is to basically try to go all aggro throughout the whole match and try to play it like a conventional "Marth vs. X" match which it is not.

 

[Ulevo]

I find it very odd that the MK boards actually thinks the match up is in Marth's favor, and then this being the opposite.

I would assume it's because they believe Marth has longer range, which for the majority of attacks, is actually false.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Nah. It's mostly because they recognize that Marth has the ability to shut down or answer any approach that MK has. MK is the most aggro oriented character in the game, so to fight a character that has such a good defense is somewhat frustrating.

It actually makes me happy to know that the other side sees Marth as a threat and they do not underestimate him. They respect what he is capable of which is a nice thought. And the fact that both sides give the advantage to the other character is a testament to how close the match is in reality IMO.

 

[Hylian]

All I know is that Roy_R destroys Metaknights with Marth. He used to lose to the same MK player every tournament, but then one week he came back and 6-1'ed the guy in the grand finals...Since then I have seen him destroy every MK player in texas.

He spikes them out of thier up-b.
He up-b's them out of fair/bair/nado/drill.

He tippers them out of glide attack.

At 0% he grab-fthrow-nair-Fsmash and it almost always hits.
And he just doesn't let MK's back on the stage.

Seriously >_<. Watch Roy_R play MKs lol. It's scary.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth can't tipper MK out of his glide if MK knows that they can hit the attack button from about 2 character lengths away and still get the hit.

Spiking MK out of his up b is just a matter of Roy_R predicting his opponent. Also it's better for MK to Drill Rush back to the ledge anyway so stuff like that doesn't happen.

Edgeguarding MK is hard, but not impossible. Marth can harass his recovery, but that's usually it. If an MK is consistently being edgeguarded by Marth they should mix-it up or just glide to the other ledge under the stage. Or once again they can Drill Rush and the only thing Marth could really do is counter.

No one is saying MK is unstoppable. We are saying that as a character MK is superior with superior tools and that this match is in his favor.

Roy_R's basic gameplay is exactly what I described in my original post. Smart and patient. That is how you beat MK.

 

[Hylian]

Marth can't tipper MK out of his glide if MK knows that they can hit the attack button from about 2 character lengths away and still get the hit.

Spiking MK out of his up b is just a matter of Roy_R predicting his opponent. Also it's better for MK to Drill Rush back to the ledge anyway so stuff like that doesn't happen.

Edgeguarding MK is hard, but not impossible. Marth can harass his recovery, but that's usually it. If an MK is consistently being edgeguarded by Marth they should mix-it up or just glide to the other ledge under the stage. Or once again they can Drill Rush and the only thing Marth could really do is counter.

No one is saying MK is unstoppable. We are saying that as a character MK is superior with superior tools and that this match is in his favor.

Roy_R's basic gameplay is exactly what I described in my original post. Smart and patient. That is how you beat MK.

Ah, but have you tried pivoting the Fsmash to get the tipper?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Stuff like that is still risky. It's much safer to just shield and up b/shield drop d-smash. Or run under him and U-smash/bair.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

No it isn't really risky, its just requires a extra technical skill.

 

[Shaya]

Horribly naive here, I know; However, where are Roy R's Marth vs MK matches?

Youtube searching generally only shows up him vs Hylian and some other tournament finale against ICs. Couldn't find one with him against MK.

 

[Anth0ny]

Horribly naive here, I know; However, where are Roy R's Marth vs MK matches?

Youtube searching generally only shows up him vs Hylian and some other tournament finale against ICs. Couldn't find one with him against MK.

Here's one, more are under "related videos".

 

[Steel]

Don't try to beat MK's glide attack. You won't.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think we need to just do all the hard match-ups first. So this thread can be as productive as possible.

Next up should be Snake or Dedede. I think we all covered MK nicely.

 

[Hylian]

Don't try to beat MK's glide attack. You won't.

What a horribile mentality.

 

[Steel]

What a horribile mentality.

You can shield > up b it or counter it yeah, however the MK would have to screw up for you to win that battle with an attack.

 

[ScythedBlade]

F-Smash Tipper

I know I may not have wall posts ... but doesn't an F-Smash Tipper finish Metaknight at like 80 or 70%? His lightness really makes those tippers own ... The only problem is who can sit close enough and time it so that the pixels work~

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Fsmash tipper kills a level 9 Snake at the center of Final Destination at 88% in training mode, so I would imagine it would kill Meta Knight, much much sooner.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Ah, but have you tried pivoting the Fsmash to get the tipper?

So basically he just predicted his opponent and punished him? Doesn't sound like any character specific advantage. It's more like Roy R just learned to predict Metaknight players better. And learn what Marth can do to punish Metaknight.

 

[Ulevo]

You can shield > up b it or counter it yeah, however the MK would have to screw up for you to win that battle with an attack.

I do agree that this has stupid priority. But there are likely ways to deal with it, such as Dolphin Slash, Counter, Shield Grab, Shield Drop, et cetera. I'm going to be doing some tests later on to aid with the fight against MK.

I know I may not have wall posts ... but doesn't an F-Smash Tipper finish Metaknight at like 80 or 70%? His lightness really makes those tippers own ... The only problem is who can sit close enough and time it so that the pixels work~

Landing an FSmash tip on Meta Knight is very, very difficult to do. His attacks have little to no lag on them, and he is fast otherwise, so catching him at a punishable time to use the attack and actually hit him is rare.

 

[Pierce7d]

Fsmash just leaves Marth WAY too open, and Metaknight is the King of punishing.

I know I'm kinda late, so I don't have much to add that isn't already here, but I learned a lot.

Oh and btw, I have a much easier time fighting Snakes than MetaKnights, but then, that was before I properly knew how to fight MetaKnight.

 

[∫unk]

Random tidbit, but if you're going for the f-smash you want to stutter step back because when they attack are always trying to get close to you, so this has led to a few good tippers in my experience.

But don't go for the f-smash unless you're pretty sure it'll tip or hit because its too easy to punish ><

 

[Pierce7d]

Random tidbit, but if you're going for the f-smash you want to stutter step back because when they attack are always trying to get close to you, so this has led to a few good tippers in my experience.

But don't go for the f-smash unless you're pretty sure it'll tip or hit because its too easy to punish ><

Very true, and if Metaknight is that far from you, then just don't Fsmash. Fsmash should only be used to punish Metaknight when he does something dumb and is punishable at close range, or when he's in the air, and you have a really . . . clear shot.

Let's talk about stage match-ups. I usually have an easier time with Metaknight on Battlefield.

A) less shuttle loop shenanigans.
B) Marth abuses platforms
C) platforms help evade tornado/ protect from overhead tornados
D) Smaller stage = easier KOs

 

[Emblem Lord]

No real point in talking stages IMO.

They do well on the same stages, so counter picking will just come down to what you are comfortable on.

Although Marth is a bit better on BF then MK is IMO.

But MK is better on Lylat Cruise and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better on Rainbow cruise.

Ban Rainbow Cruise in tourney.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What a horribile mentality.

Well, do we have something that reliably goes through it?

Though, in glide there's not much else he can do as far as attacks go, so if we can find something reliable, it'll be a major disadvantage for mk.

Counter seems to work so far, but that relies on predicting when he'll attack, an attack that goes through it would be much more useful.

 

[Anth0ny]

No real point in talking stages IMO.

They do well on the same stages, so counter picking will just come down to what you are comfortable on.

Although Marth is a bit better on BF then MK is IMO.

But MK is better on Lylat Cruise and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better on Rainbow cruise.

Ban Rainbow Cruise in tourney.

But us Marths need something to beat the Snakes with!

But seriously, I could see why MK is better on Lylat and Rainbow Cruise. UpB and down smash are just insanely quick kills. I agree that for this matchup, Battlefield is the way to go, even if it isn't that great of an advantage. It's 5.5:4.5 in Marth's favor.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

^ Wouldn't that make it 5.5:4.5 (.5;-.5)?

 

[Ulevo]

Wonderful news Marth mains! ~

Alright guys, I think you'll like this treat. I now have found a fairly reliable way to kill Meta Knight at earlier percents. I also have tested a few things you might like.

First off, the kill method. Release Grab to Dancing Blade is able to kill Meta Knight starting at 72% and up on Final Destination. Don't believe me, right? Normally, if you attempt to use Marths upwards Dancing Blade attacks, the final swing would miss Meta Knight at lower percents (BTW, in case you didn't catch that, don't use it on MK at lower percents. Use the Red/Green variations). However, at higher percents, starting at around 70ish%, MK starts to pop upwards. If MK is grabbed and released and the Dancing Blade combo starts at around 72%, MK is in perfect range for a final tipped blue swing. 72% is the lowest MK can die from if the combo starts at that percent without DI. The higher the percent, the harder it becomes to avoid due to added hitstun and the fact that you can use the combo faster to ensure the tipped hit (the lower the percent, the more it needs to be timed).

This is by far the easiest method I've found to kill MK with. Smash DI may screw with this, and DI may too, but they cannot escape the combo through regular DI, and avoiding the tip through regular DI seems rather difficult as well. I should also note that using a regular Dancing Blade combo won't work, as it won't pop MK far enough in the air to tip with it. It needs to be from a Grab Release. As for my other findings, I think they're rather useful.

Mach Tornado: First off, if you find yourself stuck in it, the best method used is to break free is to not DI at all. Leave the control stick alone. On most occasions, Marth should bounce upwards at some point. This will allow you to fast fall an Air Dodge through the rest of the Tornado. Now, if you wish to out prioritize the nado, FSmash, Dolphin Slash, Dancing Blade (risky), and Shield Breaker all work fairly well. I thought I would mention these, as MK users who like to fight at close quarters and like to stay on your *** all the time may activate it too close in order for you to use your Counter fast enough, so these will help you out.

Drill: If you are caught in this, the best method against it is to Smash DI into it. Semi Circle the control stick towards MK and if done properly, you should only recieve 1-2% damage and you will break free. Also, if spaced properly, this leads to free tipped FSmashes. This gets a little more complicated if the drill is curved upwards, but the same strategy generally follows.

Glide Attack: I have found a rather reliable counter for this in the form of Standard A. Dolphin Slash is a great alternative, but it is risky at low percents due to lag. If MK isn't pushed back far enough, he will just come back and **** you during lag. To remedy this, use the Standard A. If MK used the Glide Attack, it will clank with MK, and this gives you enough time to grab MK and start up a Grab Release set up, or FSmash/Dolphin Slash him too. If MK decides to cancel his glide and land in front of you in hopes of grabbing you from your shield, he eats a Standard A. Awesome huh?

Standard A: Most MK won't use this against Marth, but it happens, so I thought I would mention this. FSmash, DSmash, DTilt, Shield Breaker, Short Hop Counter, AND Dancing Blade all go through this. Don't attempt your aerials or FTilt if this happens, as it will be a waste of your time.