Match Up Discussion: Meta Knight ~

[Anth0ny]

^ Wouldn't that make it 5.5:4.5 (.5;-.5)?

I meant to write that, I forgot the .5

Also, awesome post Ulevo. I'll definately try to use that dancing blade trick on someone. And the standard a trick is nice too!

 

[Ulevo]

But us Marths need something to beat the Snakes with!

But seriously, I could see why MK is better on Lylat and Cruise. UpB and down smash are just insanely quick kills. I agree that for this matchup, Battlefield is the way to go, even if it isn't that great of an advantage. It's 5.5:4.5 in Marth's favor.

For the record, Lylat Cruise tilts, and that messes up the spacing Marth uses to use his DThrow to FSmash combo, as well as his Grab Release set ups. Lylat Cruise = Bad vs MK for Marth. Same thing for any other stage that tilts, such as Pirate Ship.

 

[Shaya]

Ulevo, very nice information.
Even though grab release into DB is very much a common piece of my arsenal knowing how it can kill at around 72% is very nice information.

Also I'd like to add onto the anti tornado synopsis.
Marth's nair can cancel out MK's tornado and hit him as well (first hit cancels and second hit .. .hits). I've found that it usually doesn't work on the initially started tornado (usually because an MK does it too close to you), but a little bit of spacing is all that's needed.
Also very hard to time but nair can be anti-glide attack as well. But it's a very rare occurance. Standard ground A, if it's as you say; should be very useful, thanks.

 

[ChaosKnight]

in the discussion should we talk about some stages that you might think will help a marth out. i personally like luigis mansion because i cant be easily gimped or comboed and most Mks will tornado alot in there(gives my counter more use than other places) and it gives you enough space to camp the Mk.

Edit: oh and ive noticed that if you hit the house with an attack it delays the attack which may be an advantage at times

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

CK are you insane? did you not watch any of the Metaknights on Luigi's Mansion ROFL


They can Tornado you, make you freefall onto the ground, tornado while you're on the ground to make you auto stand up into the tornado



Luigi's Mansion is banned here in tournament now too thank god

 

[VietGeek]

in the discussion should we talk about some stages that you might think will help a marth out. i personally like luigis mansion because i cant be easily gimped or comboed and most Mks will tornado alot in there(gives my counter more use than other places) and it gives you enough space to camp the Mk.

Edit: oh and ive noticed that if you hit the house with an attack it delays the attack which may be an advantage at times

Luigi's Mansion is bad for both MK and Marth imo. He can't combo you as easily but the stage is so ****ing big that you can't vertically kill him most of the time, and the building messes up your spacing.

Most MKs will try to Uthrow you to get you to the top Luigi's Mansion and **** you with Dsmash or Shuttle Loop or just anything since they now have room to stick to a basic gameplan. Horizontally, the stage is also big, and you might not be able to recover back from a hit, but MK can from most of your attacks.

MK can gimp you here more easily than you can gimp him. Not a good Counterpick for MK in my opinion.

EDIT: Eh, NEO basically said everything that really needs to be said, lol.

 

[ChaosKnight]

yea yea ive known to do crazy counterpicks but what else would be a nice stage to keep you away from the MK but let you get those hits

 

[VietGeek]

yea yea ive known to do crazy counterpicks but what else would be a nice stage to keep you away from the MK but let you get those hits

Battlefield? You have a slightly advantage there and the platforms hinder the Tornado, Glide Attacks and so fourth. The stage is small so it allows both characters to get in kills relatively well, but your range and better control of platforms gives you the minuscule advantage you require against MK.

I guess Final Destination could be another viable choice but as said before, MK does well on the same stages as Marth is.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

MK is basically a harder to target Marth due to his size with: more speed but less kill options, much better recovery, and high priority b-moves. MK still has the advantage in the match-up so besides battlefield (which gets banned against Marth A LOT) he doesn't have any actual "counter" stages. Final Destination is good for Marth because he can do the grab release without worring about MK landing on a platform for safety. So even if they ban battlefield, you have FD



baaaaaaaaahahahahahaha



the rise of marth

 

[Shaya]

Ulevo, could you post a video of you doing this 72% death thing on MK?
I tried to replicate it and was only successful at around the 100-110% range.

 

[Ulevo]

Ulevo, could you post a video of you doing this 72% death thing on MK?
I tried to replicate it and was only successful at around the 100-110% range.

I don't have any video recording devices unfortunately. My Dazzle still hasn't come in, so I'm a little annoyed about that.

Grab Meta Knight and make sure not to touch him. Once he jumps back, wait a little. When he's at the heigh of about over Marths model, dash towards him and perform Dancing Blade. Make sure you use Forward, Up, Up, Up. The Grab Release is essential, as doing it on the ground will not pop MK high enough in order for a tip to be landed. You're likely not landing the tip of Dancing Blade. You'll know when you land it.

 

[Steel]

I don't have any video recording devices unfortunately. My Dazzle still hasn't come in, so I'm a little annoyed about that.

Grab Meta Knight and make sure not to touch him. Once he jumps back, wait a little. When he's at the heigh of about over Marths model, dash towards him and perform Dancing Blade. Make sure you use Forward, Up, Up, Up. The Grab Release is essential, as doing it on the ground will not pop MK high enough in order for a tip to be landed. You're likely not landing the tip of Dancing Blade. You'll know when you land it.

I can do it ^_^, ill head into training and give it a try at 72.

 

[Steel]

K, i couldn't get it to work until 76 Ulevo. And I guarantee my hits were tipped. He would fly up very high to the top of the ceiling, but wouldn't go over the top. 76% seems to be the sweet spot. Ill upload it soon.

 

[Steel]

OK - here it is.

Grab release to dancing blade kill at 76%:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Fn7BNvtoU

 

[Jibbles]

Grab release to dancing blade kill at 76%:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Fn7BNvtoU

Wait.
It probably can't be 76%
Note how your Dancing Blade did 21% there (76%-97%), and it's the last hit that has any knokback, meaning that the previous hits don't count. Seeing as the Up combo total usually deals 14% because there's damage negation, you could say it kills at 83% I suppose

 

[Steel]

Wait.
It probably can't be 76%
Note how your Dancing Blade did 21% there (76%-97%), and it's the last hit that has any knokback, meaning that the previous hits don't count. Seeing as the Up combo total usually deals 14% because there's damage negation, you could say it kills at 83% I suppose

Well I think that is what Ulevo meant... i think.

If he had it actually kill with the last hit adding up to 72% then he corked his sword.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I have heard knockback is slightly less in training mode, so that might be it.

 

[Ulevo]

Hm. Unfortunate news guys. It seems that the decay given to the Dancing Blade is too much for the attack to KO Meta Knight effectively outside of Training mode. I have issues KOing Meta Knight until past 120% at times. I knew decay would effect it, but not to that extreme.

Oh well. The other things I mentioned still work quite nicely, and Dancing Blade should be your primary attack out of Grab Release as it will accumulate the most damage and renew your moves.

 

[Nibbity]

I read through pretty much all of this, and no one really seemed to mention B down as an important factor against meta knight.

In my opinion, because Meta Knight also doesn't have longe ranged things, I keep my mind on B downing Meta knights moves, and I find it very useful against aggressive ones who like to try to jump off the edge and spike, or just turn out to be a little predictable. His B over can also be punished through counter, and it's sort of easy to predict it and counter it unless your stuck doing another move.

Anyways, counter seems to be very effective for me during any meta knight match because of some of his attacks can become easy to see and punish. I know this isn't much, so try not to trash this if you find it useless.

 

[Shaya]

OK - here it is.

Grab release to dancing blade kill at 76%:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24Fn7BNvtoU

Video removed by its user?

What's up?

Edit:

Never mind, did it anyway.
First possible chance is around the 72% mark, IF you do hit them a couple of times (two times to be exact) where successfully done final damage is 96%, non-tipped leaves at 88%.
So yeah, if you hit him and the final damage is 96% or higher (ignoring decal) it's his death.
Steel was right then when he says that 76% is more accurate.

 

[VietGeek]

Video removed by its user?

What's up?

In a REAL battle, Dancing Blade decay prevents MK from dying from Dancing Blade up. In Training Mode, decay does not affect any moves so it alludes one to thinking this gimp was viable.

It's sad really, we find a lot of things from this grab release, but the best ones are always shut down, lol.

I read through pretty much all of this, and no one really seemed to mention B down as an important factor against meta knight.

I thought it was just implied that since you're suppose to camp against MK with your great defense that Counter would be reasonable.

Perhaps it isn't as commonly spoken of as we're trying to find other moves to use. You cannot realistically Counter every one of MK's moves and win.

 

[Shaya]

I read through pretty much all of this, and no one really seemed to mention B down as an important factor against meta knight.

In my opinion, because Meta Knight also doesn't have longe ranged things, I keep my mind on B downing Meta knights moves, and I find it very useful against aggressive ones who like to try to jump off the edge and spike, or just turn out to be a little predictable. His B over can also be punished through counter, and it's sort of easy to predict it and counter it unless your stuck doing another move.

Anyways, counter seems to be very effective for me during any meta knight match because of some of his attacks can become easy to see and punish. I know this isn't much, so try not to trash this if you find it useless.

An aggressive MK will try to force you into the air where you are at a severe disadvantage.
Counter is the worst possible move in this case. When you use counter you slow down, giving MK the time he needs to set you up further.

On the ground it has its uses but can be devestating.

 

[Kizzu-kun]

In a REAL battle, Dancing Blade decay prevents MK from dying from Dancing Blade up. In Training Mode, decay does not affect any moves so it alludes one to thinking this gimp was viable.

It's sad really, we find a lot of things from this grab release, but the best ones are always shut down, lol.

Keep in mind that this theorically guarantees KO if Metaknight is above that damage and you recently respawned.
He can't create an advantage so easily.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Keep in mind that this theorically guarantees KO if Metaknight is above that damage and you recently respawned.
He can't create an advantage so easily.

You gotta grab first...



That said, noob question I know, but I completely forgot, do all the final strikes of the dancing blade suffer move degradation together? Or do they all degrade separately.


If so, all you need to do is lay off the final up-strike and the combo is still viable, albeit requiring a little higher damage.

 

[Steel]

Video removed by its user?

What's up?

Edit:

Never mind, did it anyway.
First possible chance is around the 72% mark, IF you do hit them a couple of times (two times to be exact) where successfully done final damage is 96%, non-tipped leaves at 88%.
So yeah, if you hit him and the final damage is 96% or higher (ignoring decal) it's his death.
Steel was right then when he says that 76% is more accurate.

I took it down because training mode isn't accurate. There is no move decay and MK won't die nearly as early in a real match.

 

[Ulevo]

You gotta grab first...



That said, noob question I know, but I completely forgot, do all the final strikes of the dancing blade suffer move degradation together? Or do they all degrade separately.


If so, all you need to do is lay off the final up-strike and the combo is still viable, albeit requiring a little higher damage.

No, Dancing Blade as a whole degrades itself regardless of variants in tilted direction or number of the move. In other words, if you just spammed the first Dancing Blade hit the entire match and then went to use a full combo involving all upward variants, it would be much weaker.

Also, this combo as I just tested doesn't start to KO fresh if pulled off at about 105% without DI.

 

[adumbrodeus]

No, Dancing Blade as a whole degrades itself regardless of variants in tilted direction or number of the move. In other words, if you just spammed the first Dancing Blade hit the entire match and then went to use a full combo involving all upward variants, it would be much weaker.

Also, this combo as I just tested doesn't start to KO fresh if pulled off at about 105% without DI.

nice...[/sarcasm]


Ok, nice to know. I generally spam all the variants way too much for it to have mattered (it IS the best move ever, lol), but this would've given me and incentive to avoid the up finale. Guess that's out.

*sigh*

 

[Ulevo]

Alright everyone, discussion of Meta Knight is over. A synopsis is constructed and I am awaiting on a few clarifications to make some edits before posting it up, which should be sometime today.

Until then, discussion for match ups on Snake will be a go. Discuss!

 

[Anth0ny]

Just after this Weekly Discussion Thread was created, an awesome Snake thread was started, and quite honestly, I don't know if there's much more we could cover here that wasn't covered in that thread.

Snake Thread

 

[Kizzu-kun]

Wouldn't be better if we create a new thread?

I mean, for example, if we discover something that changes drastically Metaknight match-up and need to rediscuss that. So we can keep the older discussions yet active just for that case, but focusing in new match-up discussion more. Also older discussions wouldn't affect the new ones, I see in a close future people wanting to discuss Metaknight match-up yet.

And obvious, one sticky thread with the links to all weekly discussions.
Its just an idea, don't blame me XD~

--I'll make a post sooner, I can't write right now--

 

[∫unk]

For snake, if you use the up b combo between 0-11%, you can almost guarantee a up tilt follow up.

Tested against level 9's on attack (and jump) and humans (so DI and air dodging included).

What happens is the snake will either air dodge or not do anything at all, but either way it sets up for an u-tilt.

You can follow this up with another u-tilt, SH u-air, or SH f-air (depending on how they DIed and if they jumped)... does ~50%.

The times when the opponent got out was when they SDI out of the dancing blade up combo or when they delayed their air dodge for the up tilt so only the back part of the up tilt hit and it didn't send them back up. It still did 25%.

 

[Steel]

Snake is a great juggle target like Junk just stated.

This is a match up where you will want to use that up throw to put him in a bad position. Juggle him, and if he comes down by air dodging onto the ground you can just grab him again.

 

[Anth0ny]

Snakes will usually try to recover high over the stage and fastfall airdodge down to land. Don't punish him in the air, as it will only give him another upB and he will probably dodge your attacks anyways. Wait for him to land and punish accordingly.

Should he for some reason not recover high above the stage, a nair while he's still holding his Cypher will go through his super armor. As well, remember the grab trick at the ledge of any stage. If he's holding the cypher and you grab him without attacking or throwing, he will break free and slowing fall to his death, and there's nothing he can do about it

Unless he can use his down b recovery. I haven't faced many good Snakes, can someone confirm?

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

You should attack Snake while he is recovering high, if only to get damage on him.

As for gimping here is my opinion

Gimping

- High Recovery

Cypher: There isn't much you can do, if you can get out there fast enough you can hit him with a bair, fair, or uair. When he is coming down you can juggle him, just watch out for the C4. You then can **** him with uair, or if he is at a high enough percentage possible KO him with Dolphin Slash (or Uair).

C4: Snake will almost never use C4 on as high recovery as it would probably kill him.

- Low Recovery:

Cypher: You have many options here, it is extremely easy to spike Snake so if the situation allows it go for it. However if the situation does not allow it, fair is a great tool. So is nair, but you must hit him while he is ascending at a slower pace or his modified Super Armor will only allow you to get the first hit in. Bair works as well, it just takes more time to set up. Another interesting feature is that if you grab Snake out of his cypher and not do anything, he will be unable to use it until (or if) he hits the ground. If he is to far to grab, you can fsmash him out of it.

C4: Sometimes it is better to leave Snake alone if he does this, but if your skill level is high enough there are some thing you can do. You can go right next to him and allow the C4 to stick onto you, and then air dodge. Snake can reverse C4 to counter this though. You can go above him and try to spike him before the C4 goes off. Countering his C4 can be very effective. Also you can dolphin slash and sweet spot the edge to stage spike him.

Fair: Sometimes Snake will try to use this as they're recovering; just use fair, nair, uair, or counter to shut it down. It really doesn't cause much of a problem.

As for the Snake guide, I accidentally deleted part of it, but luckily it was stuff like CP's and Vids (the meat of the guide is still there). I asked if I should redo it, but not a whole lot of people said I should so I figured it was unnecessary.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I don't kno if he can down b recover after that tactic (which is a good one), but even if he can, at high damages that can kill him so that can be fine if you hav racked up enough damage before this grab, you should be fine, and you can just spike him rite bak down if he can down b recover.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Which tactic are you referring to, the cypher grab?

 

[Ulevo]

Sorry for the trouble guys, but Kizzu brought up a valid idea. Future discussion of these match ups may be in order as the game evolves, and I might want to edit these accordingly depending upon new discoveries that may be made, so I'm making individual threads for each character and placing the links in one index thread.

So basically, go to the Snake thread to discuss your Snake matters there. This is Meta Knight only.

 

[BanKai029]

Well, i'd just look him in the eyes and punch him in the nose. Tell him hes a bad meta knight. im sure he'd learn his lesson. If not i'd waahooooo kick him into another world

 

[Steel]

stickied? lol

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Shouldn't the index be stickied instead, or be put in the useful thread sticky?