iKiLLOTz
Smash Journeyman
Jungle singed pretty g
Edit: Jungle Malph pretty g
Edit 2 : Jungle Panth pretty g
Edit: Jungle Malph pretty g
Edit 2 : Jungle Panth pretty g
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League of Legends
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
Rad
Smash Ace
what's your elo?
Aussierob123
Smash Champion
Sivir seems pretty strong if the user can get a decent farm. Surprised I don't see more of her actually. Everyone uses bloody yi and tryndamere.
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Smash Lord
I personally think sivir is the most powerful ranged carry in the game at the moment.
Tryn/Yi, are so common because their skill cap is so ridiculously low. Tryn makes noobs feel good about playing LoL.
Add me Rob: Ad3ptroid, I'll play a few games with you some time.
Tryn/Yi, are so common because their skill cap is so ridiculously low. Tryn makes noobs feel good about playing LoL.
Add me Rob: Ad3ptroid, I'll play a few games with you some time.
Master Yi's skill cap is very very high in my opinion.
Tryndamere's used to be pretty god tier high until they remade him.
Sivir is extremely strong but Vayne/Graves continue to prove they're the best at tournament level.
Tryndamere's used to be pretty god tier high until they remade him.
Sivir is extremely strong but Vayne/Graves continue to prove they're the best at tournament level.
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Smash Lord
Chaox swears by Sivir as the current best ranged carry in solo queue, but I use all of the ranged carries very regularly (apart from MF who is trash imo) and I'm bias towards Sivir because she is very underrated by most. Her ult is godly.
If Vayne gets even slightly fed, (to the point you have a high dmg item 3-4ish mins earlier than normal) it will always be a tough time for the other team if the Vayne is smart. However with Sivir, because of her pusher style, she can farm much faster than Vayne's single target clear. Which basically means if she doesn't get kills, she is still well set for end game, and gets there much faster.
With Yi, there is a tipping point, where he goes from mediocre to ridiculous. Once he has his 3-4 core final build items, he gets ridiculously strong. I jungle Yi very regularly too.
If Vayne gets even slightly fed, (to the point you have a high dmg item 3-4ish mins earlier than normal) it will always be a tough time for the other team if the Vayne is smart. However with Sivir, because of her pusher style, she can farm much faster than Vayne's single target clear. Which basically means if she doesn't get kills, she is still well set for end game, and gets there much faster.
With Yi, there is a tipping point, where he goes from mediocre to ridiculous. Once he has his 3-4 core final build items, he gets ridiculously strong. I jungle Yi very regularly too.
xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
eh u just stun yi then blow him up
Aussierob123
Smash Champion
I'll add you next time I'm on adept but I'm only level 14 and still pretty bad at the game rofl. Got a team of four though so maybe sometimes you can fill in for the fifth.
Leisha
Top Tier Pillow
Well since I have a new computer now, I should be on more often now. Hoping to improve too!
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Smash Lord
Yeh I'll fill in. Happy playing whatever format or position really. Let me know what you need and I'll play it.
Rad
Smash Ace
Hey good for you! I think you'll enjoy the game a lot more now.
Ledge_g2
Smash Ace
I've actually found Tryn to be the hardest character to consistently do well(for me) so far. Against good players that actually know how to fight against Tryn, it becomes so much harder. That being said it made me want to play him to the point I am consistent and now I love him. Also I know exactly how to deal with Tryn when I'm against him now and have no probs, unless the team feeds him too much ,_,.
Tryndamere definitely gets exceedingly harder the more coordinated the enemy team is. They over buffed his laning phase though, which removes a significant portion of his skill cap.
Ledge_g2
Smash Ace
Yeah pretty much. I find he can get character countered solo top and if that happens he needs a smart jungler to help him. That's why if I'm playing with randoms or people I wouldn't trust jungle, I tend to jungle with him.
Him jungling is uber skill in comparison to his faceroll laning.
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Smash Lord
If Tryn gets 3-4 successful ganks, he becomes fairly godly in terms of snowball to late game. His jungle speed is amazing after wiggles & beserkers. His laning isn't exactly face-roll anymore after the tweak to his Q too. I find he has a lot of hard counters top, and his jungle is mediocre compared to many others.
Late game he is the boss though.
Late game he is the boss though.
One gank should be enough for jungle tryndamere.
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Smash Lord
No, it takes a few to get him rolling. I jungle with him regularly if he isn't banned. Once he has core, he goes pretty hard. He is one jungler where you can afk farm for most of the match and do well too lol.
He has a tipping point much like Yi, I just prefer Yi more.
Edit: Patch notes released.
They are nerfing so many of my champs
He has a tipping point much like Yi, I just prefer Yi more.
Edit: Patch notes released.
They are nerfing so many of my champs
Ledge_g2
Smash Ace
I find I only need about 1 gank too(getting the last hit), although I don't get Wiggles. If I get 3-4 ganks the rest of the game should be easy in terms of demolishing life bars.
1 successful gank is pretty much all most of the viable junglers need to remain up to par.
At least in the current jungle.
At least in the current jungle.
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Smash Lord
So after 1 gank, you are set for the rest of the match? I can't agree with that. Some cases sure, like rammus, who needs very little farm to keep up, and a gold per second item keeps him in the game. But characters like Tryn and Yi with more expensive builds, definitely need more to do well. Sure you can AFK farm the entire match, but you'll be behind between levels 5 and 16.
A carry like Tryn needs more than one kill to be relevant mid game against a good team.
What do you get instead of wiggles Ledge? I even find myself getting wiggles on tryn solo top.
A carry like Tryn needs more than one kill to be relevant mid game against a good team.
What do you get instead of wiggles Ledge? I even find myself getting wiggles on tryn solo top.
Aussierob123
Smash Champion
Are they making volibear even better.
Ledge_g2
Smash Ace
Well of course not 1 gank for the whole game, but if you are playing good players there shouldn't be too many deaths before lvl 6 and one kill on Tryn by lvl 7ish is enough to keep him up with the rest of the characters in terms of ability. I think the key is to know when to try to gank and when to simply keep jungling. Normally if you try to gank and get nothing at all, a majority of the time it will leave you behind in exp and gold and most good players have wards anyway; so only try gank when you're sure it will give your team some kind of advantage or it's too risky imo.
I normally finish boots, get zeal and then start to build the black cleaver while getting the scepter in there somewhere too. If you are ****** noobs then it could be worth getting IE before black cleaver somewhere.
I find this works well as zeal gives all stats Tryn needs and the black cleaver is a very good value for money item that also works well with him. IE is amazing but really does cost a lot of gold which you need to spend sooner to keep you on par.
I dunno, just how I play him.
I normally finish boots, get zeal and then start to build the black cleaver while getting the scepter in there somewhere too. If you are ****** noobs then it could be worth getting IE before black cleaver somewhere.
I find this works well as zeal gives all stats Tryn needs and the black cleaver is a very good value for money item that also works well with him. IE is amazing but really does cost a lot of gold which you need to spend sooner to keep you on par.
I dunno, just how I play him.
Pete278
Smash Lord
I've always wondered, how do you guys feel about playing Wii DotA? Is there any shame to it after a match, like an 'I've wasted my life' kind of feeling?
Aussierob123
Smash Champion
There's a wii dota?
xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
he is saying its a bad dota copy.. i believe.
the answer is yes alittle.
the answer is yes alittle.
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Smash Lord
I always rush an IE into PD after wiggles and boots. The free ward on wiggles, plus armor, lifesteal, proc on creeps I find too valuable. If I can I go Zeal then IE, but if I'm having one of those amazing matches where everything is falling into place, I always go for damage first.
Volibear I found to be quite useless in most team set-ups. In lower play he is viable, and now with an escape, he might find a place back on teams again.
Volibear I found to be quite useless in most team set-ups. In lower play he is viable, and now with an escape, he might find a place back on teams again.
Ledge_g2
Smash Ace
I feel that tryn is fast enough jungling he doesn't need the proc on creeps. I also find that atk speed + crit + MS is much more valuable than armour + lifesteal + 20? dmg. the ward is good but you can use that logic with any character, I find Tryn is very item dependent so his items should be focused on carrying and not supporting the team.
I think attack speed is important to get earlier than when you're getting it. More attack speed means more crits and faster rage. It's why I get Black Cleaver before IE too, the armour reduction passive + atk speed helps him drastically.
You're build is alright if you get 3-4 ganks I guess, but realistically against good players you really can't rely on that. Unless you constantly play people that can't deal with Tryn
.
I think attack speed is important to get earlier than when you're getting it. More attack speed means more crits and faster rage. It's why I get Black Cleaver before IE too, the armour reduction passive + atk speed helps him drastically.
You're build is alright if you get 3-4 ganks I guess, but realistically against good players you really can't rely on that. Unless you constantly play people that can't deal with Tryn
.
xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
i love the black cleaver on vayne =P
i love the black cleaver in general
i love the black cleaver in general
black cleaver is pretty mediocre.
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Smash Lord
I have to agree with Shaya, I have never had a situation where I have chosen black cleaver. If I do want the armor penetration, I always take last whisper.
Ledge_g2
Smash Ace
It's not Armour Pen, It's Armour Reduction which is on the stack better and also can make Armour go below 0 giving bonus damage last time I checked. It also helps your allies do more damage because the armour reduction will work for anything physical damage.
I think Black Cleaver is so good due to the fact that it is so much cheaper than IE meaning you could get Black cleaver and Zeal for abouts the price of IE. This combination is made of cheaper components and therefore more consistent. IE by itself isn't that good because your attack speed is still crap which means harder to get rage which means not taking full advantage of his Passive. If you are getting fed like a mofo than yeah go for other items, but it is much easier to build Black Cleaver when you aren't exactly getting fed.
I think Black Cleaver is so good due to the fact that it is so much cheaper than IE meaning you could get Black cleaver and Zeal for abouts the price of IE. This combination is made of cheaper components and therefore more consistent. IE by itself isn't that good because your attack speed is still crap which means harder to get rage which means not taking full advantage of his Passive. If you are getting fed like a mofo than yeah go for other items, but it is much easier to build Black Cleaver when you aren't exactly getting fed.
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Smash Lord
Given that most teams (who are worth playing) will only let a game last about 30-40 minutes, your job as the AD carry is too get the maximum damage output as early as possible. AS doesn't scale particularly well with many AD carries when compared to damage. I used to be in the AS mindset as well (Given I main Kogmaw and Vayne most of the time, who scale off percentage on AS). I used to black cleaver all day about 2 months ago.
Then I decided to IE/PD path, and I'll never look back. The difference is, your crits are high as they are, and now you will hit for an extra 50% damage on top of that, as well as getting 80AD off one item slot. Basically meaning that with the Crit you are hitting for 200AD (provided you crit) with over 50% Crit chance. If you do the math on the BC, you penetrate 45 armor on the 3rd consecutive hit so lets say you have the 55 AD plus the 45 AD from the pen ( cbf doing actual math ) so you hit for 100AD, with 35% crit chance (no crit from BC) but lets say you do crit, you hit for 55+55+45= 155AD. You hit for 30% or whatever it is faster now so you may get 1 AA more in, in 5 seconds ( again rough, don't shoot me ).
So now I'll let you do the math on how much more damage the IE outputs in 5 seconds with 1 AS compared to 1.3 AS for ~$960 gold more and providing you crit as much without the 25% crit IE provides. Remembering too that you need 3 hits to stack the penetration to provide that extra AD.
Each to there own though, I just prefer IE raw damage path, and this doesn't consider everything, like IE making farm easier, or the blackcleavers utility in team fights. Go with whats comfortable.
Then I decided to IE/PD path, and I'll never look back. The difference is, your crits are high as they are, and now you will hit for an extra 50% damage on top of that, as well as getting 80AD off one item slot. Basically meaning that with the Crit you are hitting for 200AD (provided you crit) with over 50% Crit chance. If you do the math on the BC, you penetrate 45 armor on the 3rd consecutive hit so lets say you have the 55 AD plus the 45 AD from the pen ( cbf doing actual math ) so you hit for 100AD, with 35% crit chance (no crit from BC) but lets say you do crit, you hit for 55+55+45= 155AD. You hit for 30% or whatever it is faster now so you may get 1 AA more in, in 5 seconds ( again rough, don't shoot me ).
So now I'll let you do the math on how much more damage the IE outputs in 5 seconds with 1 AS compared to 1.3 AS for ~$960 gold more and providing you crit as much without the 25% crit IE provides. Remembering too that you need 3 hits to stack the penetration to provide that extra AD.
Each to there own though, I just prefer IE raw damage path, and this doesn't consider everything, like IE making farm easier, or the blackcleavers utility in team fights. Go with whats comfortable.
Whilst a flat infinity edge will produce less damage than a black cleaver and zeal, the difference is very minor, and for each point of attack speed, crit chance and ad with IE scales 50% harder. It's not very surprising that it only takes a little bit more for I.E. to exceed cleaver when considering having the same amount of gold at a later point.
Cleaver is mediocreish because the current meta actually involves a lot of armor. Frozen Heart is a very common top item now. Soraka and Sona are two (if not the two) most popular supports.
It requires multiple auto attacks, and the armor debuff scales post hit, so you aren't even getting 15 armor reduction on the first hit - this means a lot more than you'd think.
Continuing on, the best that ranged carries can generally muster is a minor amount of auto attacks against a coordinated team in most team fight situations, blackcleaver starts looking swell after 4 auto attacks. Infinity Edge in 4 auto attacks can very easily kill a lot of characters assuming an okay critical strike chance. One auto attack with infinity edge can deal 250% more damage, and that's a lot more scary to an enemy tank than "oh, i have 200 armor, now i have 160!"
Cleaver is an okay item in terms of dueling - which is obvious. But it just doesn't have the utility required in team fights to be worthwhile. Bloodthirster is giving more damage (and a lot of ranged carries have AD scaling on their abilities) and life steal, which is allowing dem ranged carries to last longer in fights and actually be able to handle 1v1ing against tanks/bruisers (You'd have to be pretty fed / well taken care of for you to take no damage while stacking up cleaver). Infinity Edge is plainly allowing you the ability to be able to kill carries in 2-4 auto attacks, which competitively, every auto attack counts, A LOT. Black Cleaver has a hard time fitting.
At least on ranged carries.
There's some good usages of it for some melee characters (and this actually is a more beneficial situation because someone who is 'tankier' who scales with lasting longer in team fights rather than each individual auto attack will be reducing armor for the ranged carry to deal even more damage), but that's about it.
Ezreal and Corki have "acceptable" usages of it. Ezreal being all applying 2-3 stacks of with reasonable instantaneous actions. Corki having his aoe armor shredder, plus no auto attack steroid, plus the extra armor shred from cleaver can really really wreck people. But in those two cases, they're short sighted gains (I suppose a good early item if you're at a nice lead so that you continue to wreck ****). But, assuming you always have a lead is silly, and if you're trying to farm to survive and become a threat later game, Infinity edge and bloodthirster are providing a lot more.
Cleaver is mediocreish because the current meta actually involves a lot of armor. Frozen Heart is a very common top item now. Soraka and Sona are two (if not the two) most popular supports.
It requires multiple auto attacks, and the armor debuff scales post hit, so you aren't even getting 15 armor reduction on the first hit - this means a lot more than you'd think.
Continuing on, the best that ranged carries can generally muster is a minor amount of auto attacks against a coordinated team in most team fight situations, blackcleaver starts looking swell after 4 auto attacks. Infinity Edge in 4 auto attacks can very easily kill a lot of characters assuming an okay critical strike chance. One auto attack with infinity edge can deal 250% more damage, and that's a lot more scary to an enemy tank than "oh, i have 200 armor, now i have 160!"
Cleaver is an okay item in terms of dueling - which is obvious. But it just doesn't have the utility required in team fights to be worthwhile. Bloodthirster is giving more damage (and a lot of ranged carries have AD scaling on their abilities) and life steal, which is allowing dem ranged carries to last longer in fights and actually be able to handle 1v1ing against tanks/bruisers (You'd have to be pretty fed / well taken care of for you to take no damage while stacking up cleaver). Infinity Edge is plainly allowing you the ability to be able to kill carries in 2-4 auto attacks, which competitively, every auto attack counts, A LOT. Black Cleaver has a hard time fitting.
At least on ranged carries.
There's some good usages of it for some melee characters (and this actually is a more beneficial situation because someone who is 'tankier' who scales with lasting longer in team fights rather than each individual auto attack will be reducing armor for the ranged carry to deal even more damage), but that's about it.
Ezreal and Corki have "acceptable" usages of it. Ezreal being all applying 2-3 stacks of with reasonable instantaneous actions. Corki having his aoe armor shredder, plus no auto attack steroid, plus the extra armor shred from cleaver can really really wreck people. But in those two cases, they're short sighted gains (I suppose a good early item if you're at a nice lead so that you continue to wreck ****). But, assuming you always have a lead is silly, and if you're trying to farm to survive and become a threat later game, Infinity edge and bloodthirster are providing a lot more.
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Smash Lord
I can't believe I actually agree with Shaya on something lol.
Redact
Professional Nice Guy
hey guys invoker came out for dota
woo hero with 13 skills
woo hero with 13 skills
/ thread
Rad
Smash Ace
Ghostblade is very similar to Black Cleaver but it provides CDR/Crit/MS and has better parts. Probably better on melee heroes in every situation than Cleaver.
RANDOM THOUGHT (I SUCK)
RANDOM THOUGHT (I SUCK)
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Smash Lord
M5 beats TSM in World Masters Final. Peoples thoughts on the match?