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Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

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Dark Sonic

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I know for a fact Marth can up+b OoS.
Jiggs bair litterally outranges Marth's up B. Marth cannot up B a retreating bair from Jiggs. Premptively up Bing does hit Jiggs out....with the sourspot. And even so, the punishment for misreading Jiggs with this move is FAR greater than the reward for landing it.

Marth players have been premptively fairing, nairing, uptilt, and f-smashing Jiggs bairs for years. The fact that Marth can get away with that is the only reason this matchup isn't in Jiggs favor. Now all we need is another character that can do the same thing without getting rested every time they try to recover.

Also, Marth's roll has more lag than Jigg's bair+air time. <_<

And ignore the powershielding comment. That was just me having too much fun with theorycraft (maybe because I'm accidently powershielding normal moves a lot and kick myself for not capitializing on how cool powershielding is Q_Q)
 

gm jack

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Give it time. Kage showed Jiggs wasn't impossible to beat (even if Mango wasn't at his best). Let people find out ways to fight Jiggs effectively. It may just be that people have to play the theoretic matchup to the extreme, camping and outspacing Jiggs with what few moves they do have. If Jiggs dominates, over time, couter strategies should emerge. If Jiggs continues to dominate on a scale where it is play jiggs or lose, then a ban could be considered. Until then, accept what is happening, and either be the better player or join in.
 

Wobbles

Desert ******
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1) Mango is one of, if not THE smartest player this game has ever had. His main character is based on subtle movement deceptions and luring the opponent into range even though Puff doesn't always have the range or movement advantage.

2) People drastically underrate HBox and insult his playstyle without bothering to realize how good he is, or that he's basically playing Puff like M2K played Marth. Then again, M2K got criticized for having a "gay" playstyle too and nobody cheers for him either. That leads me to believe people don't give two ****s about how GENUINELY good you are unless you're a walking combo video. Otherwise you're just "gay."

Maybe I'm biased because people did the same thing to me every time I won a tournament? Every time I did something people thought was "stupid," "gay," "unfair," "broken," etc., people told me my character didn't even belong in the game. You know what that sounds like? JOHNS. ICs, not even seventh best, and they're broken and stupid and unfair. Jigglypuff couldn't even touch the top spots of a tournament because of Fox, Marth, and Sheik. Now she's broken? In the hands of two players who are smarter and more precise than everybody else? Johns.

For starters, by insulting a character you do a disservice to the player--stop being so **** disrespectful. Second, you start johning about the character, you fail to see what it is that makes these two guys so good, and you're blinding yourself. Players who do that will NEVER reach the top.

Most situations in this game--when the players have equal tech skill, spacing, game knowledge--come down simply to prediction and making the right call. If one player is smarter than the other and makes good calls 9/10 times, it will look like the character is unbeatable, and will be indistinguishable from . But really? Mango can just see through everybody and HBox is trying to push the limits of Puff's safe play. So we had a Jiggs ditto in the finals. Our two best players are Jigglypuff mains, WHAT DID YOU EXPECT.
 

TheManaLord

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hbox's secondaries are ****ing scrubtastic are you kidding me lol? yeah he's really good at abusing the gayness that is puff.

IC aren't gay they don't have the most reliable ways to grab or anything

jiggs gameplay base is pretty broken on the other hand.
 

Eggm

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The only thing that bothers me about jiggs is how much easier it is to play her at the current top level of play that's required to win nowadays compared to a character like fox or sheik. Her stay safe strategies are simply unmatched in how easy they are the execute. If it weren't for that I wouldn't hate jigglypuff so much. Btw, I'm in no way saying she's easy to play. My jiggs blowwwwwwwws and I find her hard to use, its just clear that shes easier to execute safe play while waiting for gimps than it is with fox or sheik. The combined combo of easily executing safe play and the fact that its hard to really really punish her hard for mistakes cause of her extreme floatyness just makes it really hard to keep up with. Shes certainly not the best, but IMO the easiest to perform at top play when it comes down to crunch time at a tournament.
 

null55

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until Dr. Peepee awakens to save us all, Jiggs is going to be ****** tournaments.

does this mean she's the best in the game? no. few people are actually saying that. but to say that she isn't top tier, Sveet, is really silly at this point, IMO. Jiggs has arguably the best edgeguarding, and like the strongest effective move in the game, and just runs around ******. she has like one bad match-up. how is this ***** not top tier?

i like how she's like the exact opposite of Falco (real good off the stage, can't be gipped really easily, floatyness and ability to easily change direction in the air), and just as Falco's downB should lead to a KO with hard work and prediction, Jiggs just skips all that and gets to what would theoretically be the result of Falco's comboing (but of course if Falco messes up it's back to lasering, if Jiggs does it usually can mean death, depending on the character she's fighting). i think she's tied with the bird for second... both behind Fox, who's the only actual broken character. but when it comes to humans playing this character, Jiggs is ********. i think that's an important thing to understand, who can we, humans, not computers, CONTROL CONSISTENTLY and mindgame the best with and be mindgamed the easiest against.

PS - resting. oh my ****ing god such a gay *** move.
 

Razor

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1) Mango is one of, if not THE smartest player this game has ever had. His main character is based on subtle movement deceptions and luring the opponent into range even though Puff doesn't always have the range or movement advantage.

2) People drastically underrate HBox and insult his playstyle without bothering to realize how good he is, or that he's basically playing Puff like M2K played Marth. Then again, M2K got criticized for having a "gay" playstyle too and nobody cheers for him either. That leads me to believe people don't give two ****s about how GENUINELY good you are unless you're a walking combo video. Otherwise you're just "gay."
yeah, but you're arguing something slightly different. all we're saying is that jiggs position on the tier list is lower than it should be. a tier list should be an informative ranking list that smashboards has produced for the community. to ignore jigg's success as a char is intellectually lazy.

and comparing m2k's marth to jiggs isn't legit either; ken and azen were there before m2k. and m2k's marth is/was a running combo video with gimps and gays littered all over the place. so much fun to watch.
 

null55

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plus, M2K takes "risks". **** is fun to watch.

i love that guy, and i'm pretty sure he's gonna come back and ****.
 

dch111

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Sveet, I think part of the confusion in this thread stems from the fact that the wiki smash definition of a tier list implies that they are strongly influenced by tournament results (doesn't help that most people go there to see the tiers). Whereas the MBR tier list posted on that page, if I understand correctly, is more based around the potential of each character if played with few to no mistakes on both sides. As you start adding in (even in the weakest case, equal amounts of) mistakes on both sides, some characters will become worse at a faster rate than others (especially the technical ones). Similar confusion goes for the current 64 list, which was more based off of match-ups than the definition in the beginning.
 

-ACE-

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In a perfect world, Fox ***** puff really hard. He would never get grabbed, always keep a safe distance and camp/laser her until she's at kill percent and ko her with one of his many great ko moves. In reality, the metagame, as well as many individuals' skill levels have advanced, and Fox still beats puff (but it's definitely not ****). However, we don't live in a perfect world, and Fox mains (just like anyone else) make mistakes. And puff just happens to be the ****ing best at punishing them. I use Fox as an example because he is definitely puff's worst matchup. It's complete and utter insanity to think she's not top tier material, imo. Not to mention tournament results are supposed to have a big impact on tier lists.
 

Rubyiris

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Jigglypuff is def. not top tier. Mango and Hb0x are just that much better than the rest of the world.

world: stop sucking **** and step your game up.

Foxes: Stop losing to characters not named Fox and Falco. You have absolutely no excuse. Your character is THAT good.
 

-ACE-

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So you're asking humans to stop making mistakes?

That's like asking Rubyiris to quit *****ing about how he can't improve.

Or like asking Sveet to admit he's wrong.

:chuckle:
 

x After Dawn x

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In a perfect world, Fox ***** puff really hard. He would never get grabbed, always keep a safe distance and camp/laser her until she's at kill percent and ko her with one of his many great ko moves. In reality, the metagame, as well as many individuals' skill levels have advanced, and Fox still beats puff (but it's definitely not ****). However, we don't live in a perfect world, and Fox mains (just like anyone else) make mistakes. And puff just happens to be the ****ing best at punishing them. I use Fox as an example because he is definitely puff's worst matchup. It's complete and utter insanity to think she's not top tier material, imo. Not to mention tournament results are supposed to have a big impact on tier lists.
There's no such thing as perfect and your entire argument is flawed.

I could also make up some BS about how in a perfect world, puff never gets hit by fox, avoids all his lasers, and rests him the exact frame that he happens to jump by her once she corners him. This isn't super theory bros.
 

-ACE-

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There's no such thing as perfect and your entire argument is flawed.

I could also make up some BS about how in a perfect world, puff never gets hit by fox, avoids all his lasers, and rests him the exact frame that he happens to jump by her once she corners him. This isn't super theory bros.
There might not be any such thing as "perfect" but what I was getting at is this: if Fox doesn't make any mistakes, he essentially wrecks jigglypuff's world. Don't even pretend that any jiggs could avoid all of a top level Fox's lasers lol, unless he sucks at camping. You also missed my entire point too haha, that this is actually NOT super theory bros but reality, where people make mistakes. Lol.
 

Niko45

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So the argument for jiggs not being top tier is that Hbox is leagues beyond M2K that he can beat all his top tier mains, including AT LEAST a top 5 Marth/Sheik/Fox in the world, with a lower class character?

Hbox is obviously a very high level player, it is a pre-requisite for placing the way he does regardless of character, but now ur basically annointing him a complete god since, using NO ALTERNATES, he is able to run through the absolute best players in the world with the 6th/7th best character? Can I remind you that Hbox is a relatively new player, and that he's been on the scene for less than half the time M2K or Darkrain or Cactuar have? You are suggesting that this is one godly player.

Regardless of whether or not you want to predict that Jiggs will be figured out in the future, JIGGS IS TOP TIER RIGHT NOW. There is no disputing it. In 6-12 months if Jiggs falls off the map, then lets talk about moving her back. THERES JUST NO STANDING ARGUMENT FOR JIGGS NOT BEING TOP TIER AS OF THE PAST 2 YEARS.
 

Smoke and smash

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Jiggs is CLEARLY top 5 in this game. You can't ignore how much success that character has had at the END of a meta that was developing for NINE ****ING YEARS. Yeah, I'm giving the credit to jiggs and NOT Hbox/Mango whoever. To say that they are just better at this game than everybody else is ignorant. There are a lot of really smart players who play this game, and proclaiming a person or people as god is horrible and whoever believes in that **** needs to rethink the situation.

If fox and falco are the best characters and jiggs upthrow immediately kills them, that doesn't mean mango/hbox are better than the rest of the world. TBH, falco should never beat jiggs in thoery. Fox should, but theres still upthrow


In conclusion- upthrow...and jumping with di'ed aerials.

edit- ^guy can read minds o.0

edit #2- guy below cannot
 

TheManaLord

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people shut about theory

jiggs can camp the ledge and never be hit by a single laser ever

jiggs is gayer than the rest of the cast she is better than the rest of the cast.
 

-ACE-

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people shut about theory

jiggs can camp the ledge and never be hit by a single laser ever

jiggs is gayer than the rest of the cast she is better than the rest of the cast.
lol jiggs would get hit by a few lasers before she got to the ledge. Then she could time herself out if she really wanted...
 

trahhSTEEZY

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It's too funny seeing players using very top tier characters WHINAXING about puff.

wobbles said:
Jigglypuff couldn't even touch the top spots of a tournament because of Fox, Marth, and Sheik. Now she's broken? In the hands of two players who are smarter and more precise than everybody else? Johns.
Thisthisthisthisthis.

It seem's like everyone thinks just Puff is broken and has advanced over every character just because there is some AMAZING professionals playing puff.

Puff won't reign forever. I just think people have underestimated her before, and with mango introducing puff to the world awhile back, it started some ****.

I personally think players jsut need to adjust to the puff playstyle.
 

TheManaLord

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As long as you're not Sveet I don't mind that much. I hate Sveet!!! He gets under my skin :mad:

(But not under my muscles because they're huge)
 

SDC

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There was a state here, it's gone now...
she can airdodge to it from proper port selection and not be hit by a single laser SHUT UP THEORY
As long as you're not Sveet I don't mind that much. I hate Sveet!!! He gets under my skin :mad:

(But not under my muscles because they're huge)
Troll. Number. 1. LOL.

Dude I don't know if you're trolling, but your posts are hilarious XD.

I'm happy that the thread has taken off, I'll reply to some of you later after I get some things done.
 

Quic

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Seriously why are people looking at jigglypuff for top tier as johns? she has so few flaws, i'm not saying she should be banned or she is the best in the game or anything, but what i am saying is that she is just not high tier.
she has:
-An almost infinite recovery.
-Rest, and attacks that combo into it.
-Aerials that are rediculous, her nair, fair and bair all have amazing damage/priority and her uair sets up for rests.
-Great aerial mobility, which apart from being great for her recovery, is also a great tool for spacing.
-Easy to gimp with.
and the things she has against her boil down to 2 things, her weight is low, so she dies relatively early(stage dependant because if she's not off through the blastzones she's back) and she's kinda subseptible to camping.
surely these flaws are there, but she is in no way tied with captain falcon in high tier, she should be top, and not due to johns but due to logic =/
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
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As long as you're not Sveet I don't mind that much. I hate Sveet!!! He gets under my skin :mad:

(But not under my muscles because they're huge)
Hahahaha. Sveet doesn't bother me much, he actually makes me laugh.

On another note, I need to start lifting again.. after 8 years of going at it I took the last 2 off... I'm such a slacker :(
 

TheManaLord

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Ahhh I just started back up again after a few year hiatus! I'm working all upper body right now... but who doesn't when they first start up again? That's where you show off the most!

But I'm doing mostly cardio with the weight training mixed in. 4 miles a day on an elliptical with decent resistance is burning me 400-600 calories per half hour of use! It's great for tone because your upper body gets into it just as much. I love ellipticals they've helped my routines a ton.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Just an announcement, I've quit posting seriously in this thread. The trolls have taken over and I don't even care. You have only yourselves to blame.


Now that i have that out of the way....

Puff is sooooooo gay! You can't ever combo her and whenever you make a mistake you get rested! YOU CAN'T BEAT HER!!!!!!! Just look at tournament results, nobody has been able to beat puff since pound 3 TWO YEARS AGO! Back then it was only mango, but now there is hbox and he even gayer than mango! They say fox > puff but mango and hbox >> foxes, its not fair at all!
 

Rain(ame)

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I'll take a potato chip....and eat it!!!
I'd say...IF she moved up...it'd be right below Falcon/Peach (probably below Peach) That's IF she moved up. I did VERY well against a more experienced Puff in my pool, and honestly felt like I should have won. No Johns, though. I lost, and will learn from my mistakes. Peach can definitely shut down Puff if she plays the match up right.

Puff isn't Top tier. High tier, yes, but not top tier. This goes to show that characters below the big 4 are capable of winning a tournament, is all.
 

Rykard

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I feel like people are missing the point of seanthedonconsidline's original post which was him arguing that Jiggs should be placed in top tier or at least take peach's current spot on the tier list. That being said, arguing about how good Jiggs is against other top/high tier characters should be more geared towards how good she does in comparison to Peach and Falcon who are who she needs to get past on the tier list in order to get a place as a top tier character. For example, in North America, we currently have around 4 notable falcon mains (Darkrain, SilentSpectre, Scar, Hax$), a bunch of peaches (most of which i probably haven't heard of but notably VWins, Pink Shinobi, and Wife and i'm going to include Armada just for the sake of how good he is) and 3 Jigglypuff players (Mango, HungryBox, Darc). We should be then evaluating how each of these Falcons and Peaches who arguable represent the top level of play for each of these characters are performing against other high and top tier characters in comparison to those who use jigglypuff.
 

-ACE-

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Regardless of how good or bad (LOL) jiggs may seem to some people, there's nothing that can be said against her dominance in tournament. This is a tier list we're talking about, not a list of "who is the best character in the game". Tourney results should matter, regardless of who the player is.
 

Strong Badam

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jiggs isn't dominating
2 players are
jiggs is top tier for sure
but seriously guys... why does it matter?
 
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