Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

[BunBun]

Victra: Kirby is mad cute

 

[TheManaLord]

xD at victra.

I also think people are a little thick and don't quite realize that our tier list is based largely on tournament results. And that not only has jiggs taken first at nearly every single even for the past 2.5 years but also 2nd 3rd 4th 5th and out to top 10 at major tournament at many instances.

People are blind to facts! Prove me wrong OH YOU CAN'T. Any anti-jiggs sentiment is ****ing useless theory craft GTFO of here.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The commentators said mango was laughing and joking when he was playing fox.

Also, i know nothing about their MMs from RoM2. How much money were they for? Amount of games? For all we know mango didnt give a **** because they didn't matter very much and he is cocky and doesn't care if he loses $30 to hbox because he knows he will 1) win a few sets if there are multiples and 2) win many other MMs that day and 3) win the tournament

tl;dr tournament set >>>>> random MMs




Care to tell me what these things are?




Marth didn't "develop" into a top tier character because of Ken. Marth has been a top tier character since the first tier list and at his lowest was a high tier character when top tier was Fox/Falco only.




You mean the stuff king was doing in 06?

Hbox and Mango are only more precise. Yeah, what they do is incredible and very over powering, but its not really stuff that is exclusive to puff. Puff can make a wall of bairs that is nearly impossible to get around, but every character in high and top tier have equivalent methods of getting to the same goal (gain stage control, keep it, take a stock).





Debatable in the sense that a lot of people think puff is higher, regardless of factual evidence.



King and Darc have done as expected of their character based on the tier placing. They have done about as well as falcon mains and peach mains and IC mains, overall.

To copy pasta your argument for any of those characters, all i'd need to do is convince mango to win a tournament with that character and then BAM i have a "solid argument" for why they should be top tier.




actually that is her weakness, because marth covers the air approach with an impassable sword. The idea is actually to approach on the ground with your shield. Puff can't beat marth's sword with her aerial priority and range because marth has more aerial priority and more range.



Again, the match-up is about ground mobility and stage control, not air priorty and safety.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CSjPMnuZi4
Watch that and tell me what happen every time mango tries to commit at m2k from the air and notice what happens every time he starts shield camping and approaching from the ground.

also, i would much rather get fair/bair'd by puff than shined by either spacie, grabbed by falcon or shiek, or dash attacked by peach. Puff's "combos" are mostly 1 hits that link together by stage control and opponent's mistakes.

i edited my post instead of double posting.... thread left without me tho XD

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Yeah it is a fact now puff above peach for a fact lol whens the last time you heard of peach winning a huge tourmen in the US? Europe is a bit different A named guy and worse top tiers.

I mean m2k rants ALL THE TIME about this stuff you can't help but dead on into the facts her flaws

easy to kill upwards
sheild break
no projectile
(bad wd and dd lol)


Rerally i'm thinking people need to change tactics or something when fighting puff because so far these tactics aren't amazing.

 

[yurr]

puff should replace peach...puffs weaknesses are not match making, that freaking rest is a killer though....

 

[-ACE-]

Also, i know nothing about their MMs from RoM2. How much money were they for? Amount of games? For all we know mango didnt give a **** because they didn't matter very much and he is cocky and doesn't care if he loses $30 to hbox because he knows he will 1) win a few sets if there are multiples and 2) win many other MMs that day and 3) win the tournament

tl;dr tournament set >>>>> random MMs

I can't remember everything, but if you consider M2K a credible source...

yeah i guess it's just a huge coincidence that when mango doesn't win huge huge tournaments, hungrybox does, with Darc always doing very well. Just coincidences (or the fact that hbox beat all of mango's characters in money matches at Rom1 and Rom2 both, except puff dittos at genesis tourney). Coincidence.

You really think Mango would lose a $30 MM to Hbox purposely because he's "cocky and doesn't care"?? Fail.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Lose purposely and not take as seriously as a tournament match are very different, and i really wouldn't put it past him to slack off in multiple small MMs. That and i've seen mango beat hbox in a GF set with his fox.

And no, i don't consider m2k a credible source.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol whatever dude. Not playing your best vs HBox = losing on purpose, basically.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Not to mango lol

 

[SDC]

Sveet, next time can you not quote your post? It makes it much harder for me to reply to it now lol XD.

I'm not a puff main, so I'm not going to be able to give you an extremely detailed list, although I'll try lol.

1. In general, over time, people's DI has improved. This means that now, Jigglypuff is nearly uncombo-able. If that isn't an asset, I don't know what is.

2. A few techniques for KOing certain characters have been learned and perfected. Jab-cancel-->rest has been discovered. Upthrow rest when DIed incorrectly is an easy KO on spacies, and puffs are getting better at mixing up their timing with this so it's harder to DI the upthrow. Puffs in general have improved their edgeguarding game greatly, puff can now confidently gimp the majority of the cast. Fsmash is being used more, it's quite useful, Hbox uses Upsmash effectively. Puff user's comboing has improved. Puff users have improved their efficiency with uptilt rest, and comboing into rest with other moves, like Uair, Bair, and also Crouch-cancel DIing into rests.

3. The recovery technique has been perfected to a point where puffs can recover from literally anywhere on the field.

4. (I know I'm kind of going out on a limb with this next argument, but try to understand what I'm saying lol, I'm not sure if it's that good of an idea, but I think it might just be possible)
As time has gone on, melee players' DI, spacing, and mindgaming creativity has improved. Due to puff's design, her floaty, ariel maneuverability, she accentuates, heightens, magnifies a player's mindgames, spacing, and DI. She is dependent upon spacing, mindgames, and DI. The better your spacing, mindgames, and DI, the better the puff. Thus, as players improve, puff will also improve, exponentially so. Of course you can say this about all characters, they will seem to be better when their player gets better. But, because puff's fundamental playstyle is all DI, spacing, and mindgames, she will get exponentially better as the player improves, to a larger degree then with any other character. It is only logical to assume then that puff will only improve with time, and get better as melee players in general do.

True, and my smash history isn't that great lol, but didn't Ken at least help establish marth as a top tier after he had dropped down to high tier? Why couldn't Mango and others do the same for jigglypuff?

Of course every good character can do similar things that jigglypuff can do, but no character can do it like her, or as well as her. Of course everyone can do some of the things that the best characters in the game can do, but the best characters are the best because they can just do it better, that's why they're top tier lol. Every character can combo, KO, and recover, but jigglypuff does it far better, which is why she deserves a spot near the top.

"Without factual evidence"
No factual evidence? Are you joking? What better factual evidence is there then a dominant performance by jigglypuff users in every recent major (inter)national tournament?

Just because every puff main doesn't win everything doesn't mean she's not a top tier character. According to your logic, because of all the falco, fox, marth, and sheik mains that place poorly, and don't win tournaments, the top tiers should be moved down. As you said, player skill comes into play. Just because someone is using a good character, doesn't mean they're guaranteed to win it all.

And I think it's already been shown that Mango needs puff to win major national tournaments, at Genesis he needed puff, and at Pound 4 Mango went puff after Hbox p!ssed all over his fox.

You're speaking in old terms, yes marth's sword can keep her back, but does the hitbox stay out forever? No. Can marth keep on swinging that thing every second of the match? No. There will be holes, there will be weaknesses, things that a good puff will be able to exploit, and punish.
Also, I never said it was good for puff, I'm saying that it isn't as good for marth as many would like to think it is.

I've seen that vid, and I've got to say, you picked a horrible video to use for your case lol, Mango two stocks M2K. Yes of course it's not all about ariel maneuverability, there is some ground game involved, but really, this vid does not help your point that marth has advantage against puff lol.

You must not play very good puffs then lol, and if a puff only chains hits on you, if they play it right, then they don't even need to combo, they can just hit and run, racking up damage until their ariels knock you offstage for a KO or gimp, or they can just rest/smash you lol.

EDIT: I'm done for now, I might be back on again later tonight, who knows who cares lol

 

[TheManaLord]

Superior player excuse is bull****.

Ken was the King of Smash. His skill excelled others and he happened to main Marth. He was the dominant force for a long time... until slowly other players began to reach his level. Players were doing well against him earlier on but only inconsistently... (ex azen chu) but eventually other players with other characters began to reach his level and could compete with greater consistency (ex m2k pc kdj) and then eventually M2K pulled away from the rest and his main character was originally fox but he saw incredible dominant success with Marth. marth was top of the metagame and people even had debates declaring marth the best in the game, he even reached second on the tier list!

That was years ago... a puff began to rose, Mango was slowly climbing up the charts and he did, yes he did. and he proved his dominance and he won pound 3 from losers beating every other established pro in the way, we all know about this. With puff.

mango was an exceptional player with an exceptional character. What if Ken played puff what if those other players did? Who gives a **** that's bull**** fantasy. It didn't happen, mango happened to do it.

mango's skill exceeds all others and he can beat other great players with his secondaries... most of the time. That was for at least a year we were in this phase where M2K sucked and got beat down by Mango (rom).

Well now it's a little different... Mango is still on top, but he has to rely on his puff in the hardest of situations. The best players in europe get 3rd and 4th and only puffs above them, their hatred and opinions on puff match that of M2K. You think it's conjecture? It's their bitterness that they didn't pick up puff first and that they can't now because of the time they've invested into their careers.

Hungrybox's gayass style exemplifies the gayass overpowering qualities of jigglypuff. I traveled to florida in 08 and played him... and his secondaries blew then and they still blow now. It's the character.

It's not just the two of them, there are other jigglypuff players and to cite them all would be pointless, you all know them.

A lot of characters in the past have been brought up by exceptional players, like marth fox falco and sheik. NOw puff. Well what the **** is next? Use your brains idiots. There's not much left, there's no wild card that's going to come and change the metagame anymore.

---

Jigglypuff is gay and broken because of several reasons.

She has a limitless applicable recovery. She will recovery in all but extraordinary situations. Sure sometimes she won't, but that doesn't defeat the fact that her recovery VASTLY EXCEEDS the capabilities of EVERY OTHER CHARACTER.

She can't get comboed anywhere near the levels of safety, reliability, consistency, and effectiveness of ANY OTHER CHARACTER. Nothing truly works, there are very few combos or safe entrances against jigglypuff.

Broken priority and aerial mobility leads to exceptional camping and planking ability. Puffs don't even abuse ledgestalling in melee because they don't have to yet.

A OHKO move. That's competitive disaster in this case. In other games not so much, they're pretty ******** in Guilty Gear... well check this **** in this game it comes out invincible instantly and it can be comboed into against any character from grabs or moves or simply to punish... move against your shield, laggy move, recoveries, from your team partners grab... yeah ok there's more get it?

The gimping. **** the OHKO move she can kill you with any other move starting at 0% too.

---

This doom has long been foreseen. I've followed the foreign scenes long before it came popular and studied abroad in japan in 2005 and their sentiments were prophetic.

------

Something else to note is the evolution of gameplay and knowledge. A random scrub with natural talent can no longer walk into a tournament in do well. This isn't 2004. Everyone who plays has to know something and have prior knowledge and practice and experience to do even remotely well in tournament. Every pro that can compete has good DI and they are very conscious of all factors of gameplay. This was not the case when Ken or even M2K were champion.

Today at this evolved age there is no more gameplay evolution to come. It's been plenty long enough to get to this point. The train has to stop somewhere.

 

[Ben-Teezee]

How can anyone still argue about this after pound4 and rom2 and genesis?

The biggest tournaments in history of smash and Jiggs keeps winning!

Player skill vs character advantage is a pretty deep argument. The main example usually used is how mango is so much better than everyone that it doesnt matter who he uses. However even though that logic is flawed (he will always go jiggs when he needs to win aka grand finals of genesis and pound4).

lets use hbox as an example instead. When you watch mango play, you can see clearly how he adapts and just completely figures out his opponent. when u watch hbox however, Its perfect execution of bair wall of pain and rest combos and gimps. While im sure he reads his opponents to some extent, its not as apparent because the characters over powering qualities are just soo apparent.

I honestly believe Jiggs is higher than most characters. I think we should re-evaluate why the other chars are top and remember that our (USA) tier list was based on character usage and tournament placings, not the hypothetical way the japanese made theres ( based on how chars should do in hypothetical situations.) while i think both ways have their merits, I think its hard to ignore the placings of hbox, mango, and to a lesser extent darc, over the last year.

Some things to think about:

- Over time different chars were considered top for different reasons.
Shiek was considered top because of her dominance over almost all of the cast. However with how much other chars have advanced. shes become nothing special. matchups that used to be Hugely in her favor are either non-existant (the mid-low tiers) or alot closer to even (peach/marth). why is she still considered sooo good? how many top shieks still exist? amsah in europe and m2k in states? wow yep amazing character.

- I still think Fox is the best. However when was the last time a fox won anything more than a local tourney? Foxes dont even place in top 5 @ majors!

- I think Falco is prob one of the best if not the best char in singles. However he's one of the few double edge swords in top tier. At even level of player skill even the low tiers can take advantage of his abysmal recovery and he's probably the one they go most even with. However theres no way you can deny how good this character is.

- Marth is amazing. I think he's like fox in the fact that he's under-represented. However there has to be a reason for this. Using marth at the highest level is Extremely difficult. He goes even to less than even with all the high/top tiers with his best matchups probably being who peach?(outta the top tiers i mean). While he is an amazing character again I dont think we are taking the metagame and his representation into account in the tiers.

My revised tier list based on tournament placing and my perception of the current metagame. the score i give them is based on if 10 was the character being perfect considering a) matchups b) singles and teams c) representation in tournaments d) tournaments placing.

Top
1. Fox 9.6/10
2. Falco 9.4/10
3. Jiggs 9.4/10

High
4. Shiek 9.2/10
5. Marth 9.0/ 10
6 Peach 8.9/10

High-Mid

7. capt. falcon
8. Ganon
9. Doc. Mario
10. Samus
11. Iceys

then everyone else.

Please note that while theyre lower in place the difference in score is not that great i just think jiggs is slightly better than the other top tiers.

 

[x After Dawn x]

before the OP wants to discuss jigglypuff's position on the tier list, he should probably realize that a new tier list would be

fox
falco
sheik
marth

before jigglypuff would get moved into top tier.

 

[victra♥]

no. Jiggs is top tier.

JIGGS IS TOP TIER. I SWEAR TO GOD.

I think Jiggs is better than Sheik and Marth. ;D

 

[Aves]

Pretty good list.

Top
1. Fox 9.6/10
2. Falco 9.4/10
3. Jiggs 9.4/10

High
4. Shiek 9.2/10
5. Marth 9.0/ 10
6 Peach 8.9/10

High-Mid

7. capt. falcon
8. Ganon
9. Doc. Mario
10. Samus
11. Iceys
.

I would go with,

1)Jiggs
2)Fox
3)Marth
4)Shiek

5)Falco
6)Peach
7)C. Falcon
8)Ganon

 

[undyinglight]

I am one of the few Marth players who believe that Marth is at a disadvantage vs. Jigglypuff.

 

[theunabletable]

I have not seen any evidence that Puff is NOT top 2 or best in the game.

Mango and Hbox didn't lose a single set today (except Hbox losing to Mango's Puff...). Hbox won RoM2, Mango won Genesis, Mango won RoM (okay he didn't go Puff in grand finals, but he had already ***** M2K in winner's finals), and Mango won Pound 3.

Matchups are completely theoretical and subjective. Tourney results are factual.

The facts are that Puff has won pretty much every major tourney in '09/'10.

Puff is obviously best in the game. There is no factual evidence to make us think otherwise.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sveet, next time can you not quote your post? It makes it much harder for me to reply to it now lol XD.

my bad. i thought it would be easier to find (if you click the little arrow in the opening of the quote, it brings you to the post)

I'm not a puff main, so I'm not going to be able to give you an extremely detailed list, although I'll try lol.

1. In general, over time, people's DI has improved. This means that now, Jigglypuff is nearly uncombo-able. If that isn't an asset, I don't know what is.

That is true, but to an extent. you can still perform throw->fsmash combos with both fthrow and dthrow. If they are holding forward and you dthrow, fsmash. likewise, if they are holding back and you fthrow, you have a fsmash.

Other than that, its still not a big deal. If marth just took 1 fair at a time and every stock he killed puff off the top at 150% with a tipper fair, the match-up is still in his favor. She is just locked down that bad.

2. A few techniques for KOing certain characters have been learned and perfected. Jab-cancel-->rest has been discovered. Upthrow rest when DIed incorrectly is an easy KO on spacies, and puffs are getting better at mixing up their timing with this so it's harder to DI the upthrow. Puffs in general have improved their edgeguarding game greatly, puff can now confidently gimp the majority of the cast. Fsmash is being used more, it's quite useful, Hbox uses Upsmash effectively. Puff user's comboing has improved. Puff users have improved their efficiency with uptilt rest, and comboing into rest with other moves, like Uair, Bair, and also Crouch-cancel DIing into rests.

jab resets rarely happen, and i dont think i've ever seen one on a marth

uthrow rest works on spacies and thats it. if they mix up their throw timing, you just keep holding away and you get out. its not like someone DIs for 1 frame then stops....

puff still isnt nearly as good at gimping as marth is. she lacks 1) grab range 2) ground mobility 3) low startup move that hits under the stage with low end lag 4) vertical mobility

puff is forced to leave the stage or at least feign that she is. there are ways to force her to commit to one option then get outside her range and safely recover (for example, fox can DJ high immediate firefox. puff can't get up there before fire starts and fair doesn't go thru fire)

Don't get me wrong, she does have a great off stage game and a great edge guard, but its not as flawless as some people make it out.

3. The recovery technique has been perfected to a point where puffs can recover from literally anywhere on the field.

recovery technique? yea she always comes back XD

4. (I know I'm kind of going out on a limb with this next argument, but try to understand what I'm saying lol, I'm not sure if it's that good of an idea, but I think it might just be possible)
As time has gone on, melee players' DI, spacing, and mindgaming creativity has improved. Due to puff's design, her floaty, ariel maneuverability, she accentuates, heightens, magnifies a player's mindgames, spacing, and DI. She is dependent upon spacing, mindgames, and DI. The better your spacing, mindgames, and DI, the better the puff. Thus, as players improve, puff will also improve, exponentially so. Of course you can say this about all characters, they will seem to be better when their player gets better. But, because puff's fundamental playstyle is all DI, spacing, and mindgames, she will get exponentially better as the player improves, to a larger degree then with any other character. It is only logical to assume then that puff will only improve with time, and get better as melee players in general do.

While spacing and DI do increase as players get better, mindgames.... well mindgames don't really exist at a high level, or at least are often misunderstood.

Player skill is mostly determined by how well they gain stage control, move around the stage, how well they can edge trap, how well they can edge guard, and how well they adapt to how the opponent is doing these things.

Puff at the high level plays similar to ganon. you get center stage and then you just make a wall of priority and slowly push your wall towards the edge until they get hit. There are ways through it, though. If you shield a rising bair, you can hit her before another comes out. If she lands on your shield with an aerial she has to space away from danger which gives you room to maneuver.

Did anyone see armada play? How do you get past a peach when your back is to the edge and she is floating ~1 roll distance away and platform height? Answer is, you don't. If she hits your shield, she doesn't have to space because there is no lag.

True, and my smash history isn't that great lol, but didn't Ken at least help establish marth as a top tier after he had dropped down to high tier? Why couldn't Mango and others do the same for jigglypuff?

No because tier lists aren't based on tournament results, but instead on actual metagame advances.

"Puffs are really good at mindgames" isn't a metagame advance.
"Puff's neutral b can cover 5 options from the edge and go neutral with the remaining ones" (not real) would be a metagame advance.

Of course every good character can do similar things that jigglypuff can do, but no character can do it like her, or as well as her. Of course everyone can do some of the things that the best characters in the game can do, but the best characters are the best because they can just do it better, that's why they're top tier lol. Every character can combo, KO, and recover, but jigglypuff does it far better, which is why she deserves a spot near the top.

i'll give you the recovery part, but the others i highly disagree. Puff doesn't combo very well, especially compared to the other high and top tier characters.

Her KO potential is very high risk/high reward (rest). But any time puff rests at 50% or higher, she is basically dead unless they DI wrong (try to survival DI instead of DI to die faster) which basically boils down to just trading stocks.

The rest (no pun) of her KOs all come from edge guards and edge traps.

"Without factual evidence"
No factual evidence? Are you joking? What better factual evidence is there then a dominant performance by jigglypuff users in every recent major (inter)national tournament?

tournament results are just anecdotal evidence.

Just because every puff main doesn't win everything doesn't mean she's not a top tier character. According to your logic, because of all the falco, fox, marth, and sheik mains that place poorly, and don't win tournaments, the top tiers should be moved down. As you said, player skill comes into play. Just because someone is using a good character, doesn't mean they're guaranteed to win it all.

no, thats your logic not mine. i have always claimed that tournament results are independant of tier rankings. i thought the phrase (in quotes) "solid argument" was a tip off that i was copying your logic to show you that it is wrong.

And I think it's already been shown that Mango needs puff to win major national tournaments, at Genesis he needed puff, and at Pound 4 Mango went puff after Hbox p!ssed all over his fox.

Ok maybe mango needs puff? Do you need puff? Do i need puff?

Mango is a player, his MAIN CHARACTER is jigglypuff. Why would it be shocking at all that he would use his main character in the grand finals of a tournament?

Did you know, before mango it was unheard of for even the best player in the world to pull out random secondaries and win large tournament? Thats the overall skill gap between mango and everyone else. So if he has to try, do you think its because of the match-up he has to play or do you think its the player he has to play against?

You're speaking in old terms, yes marth's sword can keep her back, but does the hitbox stay out forever? No. Can marth keep on swinging that thing every second of the match? No. There will be holes, there will be weaknesses, things that a good puff will be able to exploit, and punish.
Also, I never said it was good for puff, I'm saying that it isn't as good for marth as many would like to think it is.

Yea, there are gaps. But now you have to have a puff in position to hit the gaps. Do you know how hard it is for the fastest characters in the game to get through his sword? Against fox I can swing my sword in place without leaving an obvious gap as long as i don't fall into a pattern.

Autocancel nair-> retreating fair -> dj fair -> ff uair -> dtilt -> pivot bair -> dj dair -> edge cancel uair -> ftilt -> pivot grab -> AC nair -> shffl fair -> ect ect ect


edit: what i'm trying to say is, marth vs fox is even and fox has a rough time punishing this. puff has a crazy hard time punishing this. i've tried the match-up in reverse and its brutal. mad respect to mango

I've seen that vid, and I've got to say, you picked a horrible video to use for your case lol, Mango two stocks M2K. Yes of course it's not all about ariel maneuverability, there is some ground game involved, but really, this vid does not help your point that marth has advantage against puff lol.

if you want i can go through the whole thing with you and point out all the mistakes m2k made. basically every time he got hit, there was something else he should have done and either made a spacing mistake or a technical mistake.

You must not play very good puffs then lol, and if a puff only chains hits on you, if they play it right, then they don't even need to combo, they can just hit and run, racking up damage until their ariels knock you offstage for a KO or gimp, or they can just rest/smash you lol.

do you realize how general that is? aside from the word "rest", you can change "puff" to any other character and have it still make sense.

Something else to note is the evolution of gameplay and knowledge. A random scrub with natural talent can no longer walk into a tournament in do well. This isn't 2004. Everyone who plays has to know something and have prior knowledge and practice and experience to do even remotely well in tournament. Every pro that can compete has good DI and they are very conscious of all factors of gameplay. This was not the case when Ken or even M2K were champion.

ORLY?

ORLY???????

Do you even have a clue about what you're talking about? It really sounds like you don't.

Anyways, the rest of your post was utter garbage and i dont even feel like wasting the time it would take to break it down, seeing as you probably would ignore it and continue your troll rampage.

Player skill vs character advantage is a pretty deep argument. The main example usually used is how mango is so much better than everyone that it doesnt matter who he uses. However even though that logic is flawed (he will always go jiggs when he needs to win aka grand finals of genesis and pound4).

When did it suddenly become uncommon for someone to use their main character when they really want to win?

lets use hbox as an example instead. When you watch mango play, you can see clearly how he adapts and just completely figures out his opponent. when u watch hbox however, Its perfect execution of bair wall of pain and rest combos and gimps. While im sure he reads his opponents to some extent, its not as apparent because the characters over powering qualities are just soo apparent.

So you notice how well he is at edge trapping and edge guarding, and thus the character is broken? Do you also watch kage and think ganondorf is top tier, cause that guy just spams ganon's priority around until you go off the stage (aka 1 hit lol) and then methodically edge guards you. Its a general strategy you do with every character (for the most part).

I honestly believe Jiggs is higher than most characters.

Yea, she is. 6/7 out of 26 = PRETTY **** HIGH

I think we should re-evaluate why the other chars are top and remember that our (USA) tier list was based on character usage and tournament placings, not the hypothetical way the japanese made theres ( based on how chars should do in hypothetical situations.) while i think both ways have their merits, I think its hard to ignore the placings of hbox, mango, and to a lesser extent darc, over the last year.

who said our tier list was made like that? brawl tier list is made off of tournament results, not melee.

Some things to think about:

- Over time different chars were considered top for different reasons.

No its always been the same reason, they are really good. Not to mention its been the same 5 characters at the top since the first tier list, just in different orders (sheik fox falco peach marth was the first tier list)

Shiek was considered top because of her dominance over almost all of the cast.

yep

However with how much other chars have advanced. shes become nothing special.

huh?

matchups that used to be Hugely in her favor are either non-existant (the mid-low tiers) or alot closer to even (peach/marth).

nah those matchups are still really good for her

why is she still considered sooo good? how many top shieks still exist? amsah in europe and m2k in states? wow yep amazing character.

players playing the character is not related in any way to how good the character is. if everyone dropped fox, he would still be #1.

- I still think Fox is the best. However when was the last time a fox won anything more than a local tourney? Foxes dont even place in top 5 @ majors!

jman got 5th at pound 4, zhu got 4th at genesis, ect ect



the rest of your post was all opinion with no support...
















edit- anyways, what i'm trying to say overall is that puff is about where she belongs already. If any of the characters above her were a little worse, then yeah she would be better than them, but as is i can't even see puff being better than peach, much less breaking the tie with falcon.

 

[EPsilon933]

MaNg0's and Hungrybox's Jigglypuff are the best character(s) in this game, not Jigglypuff in General. I'm too tired to write a good arguement to back this up, but I see too many people base their reasoning solely on what two people did and no one else can do. Hell, MaNg0 plays Jigglypuff only against other other Jigglypuffs and Peaches it seems, and MaNg0 can win with any character (in general).

 

[victra♥]

lol. The arguments against Jigglypuff being top tier/the best character in the game is hilarious.

When players do well with a character, it shows the potential of that character. The tier list should reflect this.

The arguments towards "such and such character isn't good, only the player is" but that player can only do as good as the limitations of a character will let them. Especially in the case with Mango and Hbox where they are both winning tournaments left right and center for all of last year, and atm 2010 as well. These aren't small local tournaments mind you. It really goes to show that Jigglypuff has the options (not to mention potential) of being the best in the game.

Anyone who thinks Jiggs STILL isn't good enough to be in Top Tier is just really really ignorant. Just accept it. Jiggs *****, really really hard.

 

[Charlesz]

aGREE WITH victra and epsilon.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Since when is high tier too limiting to win tournaments? its not like anyone is saying puff is low tier and mango is that amazing... i'm saying puff is a high tier character and mango is amazing.

 

[Strong Badam]

no .

 

[victra♥]

Since when is high tier too limiting to win tournaments? its not like anyone is saying puff is low tier and mango is that amazing... i'm saying puff is a high tier character and mango is amazing.

But if a character is continually winning tournaments...it's top tier material.

The way I see it, or at least what makes sense to me is, when a player is winning as many tournaments as hbox and mango are, the character plays a big role. Yes, obviously Jiggs isn't low tier, but players would not be able to win tournaments that consistently unless the character they were using had a lot of options. This is mostly the reason why certain characters are better than others. The have better options.

On that note, I think Jiggs has enough options to be top tier. Just looking at the year's worth of tournaments and NOT thinking Jiggs is top tier is seriously really ignorant. They way things are going, everyone's just gonna cover their eyes and ears regardless of how many times jiggs proves that she's top tier material.

It makes no sense to me.

 

[Strong Badam]

proposal: tier lists don't really matter and in the end you should spend less time arguing about them on the internet and more time playing the game

 

[Gauthic Von B Schönen]

but If A Character Is Continually Winning Tournaments...it's Top Tier Material.

Denpaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!

 

[Paix]

I 100% agree with Victra.

 

[victra♥]

proposal: tier lists don't really matter and in the end you should spend less time arguing about them on the internet and more time playing the game

yeah...*sigh*

Denpaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!

taken out of context. gg.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But if a character is continually winning tournaments...it's top tier material.

The way I see it, or at least what makes sense to me is, when a player is winning as many tournaments as hbox and mango are, the character plays a big role. Yes, obviously Jiggs isn't low tier, but players would not be able to win tournaments that consistently unless the character they were using had a lot of options. This is mostly the reason why certain characters are better than others. The have better options.

On that note, I think Jiggs has enough options to be top tier. Just looking at the year's worth of tournaments and NOT thinking Jiggs is top tier is seriously really ignorant. They way things are going, everyone's just gonna cover their eyes and ears regardless of how many times jiggs proves that she's top tier material.

It makes no sense to me.

I see where you're coming from, but i still sort of disagree.

i agree that puff has all the options she needs to be sucessful. I just disagree that only top tiers have all those options. From my point of view, top tier is for the most absolute dominant character(s). I may be old fashioned, but i disagree with falco being in top tier in the final tier list because of the gap (numerically) between him and the others. 9.9, 9.9, 9.6, 9.2.

Anyways, i think instead of trying to fit puff into top tier by labeling attributes top tiers have/need, we should talk about ordering and leave labeling the tier divisions to a separate task.

For example, i havent seen anyone explain how puff is better than falcon or peach yet they want to put her below falco based on tournament results.

 

[Gauthic Von B Schönen]

taken Out Of Context. Gg.

Denpaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

 

[Strong Badam]

proposal: tier lists don't really matter and in the end you should spend less time arguing about them on the internet and more time playing the game

end of thread

 

[The_Blue_Bomber]

I don't know anything about Melee as I never played it competitively.

I'd just like to drop in and say this thread is hilarious. I can't tell if ManaLord and Lucas Perfected are trolling or not... But wow.

That's all.

 

[King Siegfried]

I'm with Sveet ... we nonPuff players just need to suck less.

Kudos to Mango and Hbox ... also to Amsah and Armada, M2k and Jman ... those last 4 appear to be doing a better job of trying to suck less.

But they still suck slightly more than Mango and Hbox ... this is the ONLY reason they didn't place higher.

It's all about making less mistakes.

 

[TemPesT-]

i think fox's have to step it up and just start ****** puff. fox is so much faster, and can kill puff so early... and learnd to DI that helps. idk, i KNOW puff *****, but in my head i just don't see how she beats fox when he can camp her, kill her from grabs really low %, and just run circles around her in general until he can get a grab, or resort back to camping.

don't flame me.

 

[Strong Badam]

lol the game is far deeper than "camp until you can kill her and then kill her," the reason jigglypuff players can stand a chance is because of the deep mental game that goes on in jigglypuff vs. character matches.

 

[Koskinator]

if m2k picks up ganon
he will beat mango

 

[Velox]

lol the game is far deeper than "camp until you can kill her and then kill her," the reason jigglypuff players can stand a chance is because of the deep mental game that goes on in jigglypuff vs. character matches.

yeah, that must be it, jigglypuff's are the only players that have "deep mental games"..

 

[Cosmopolitan]

isai won tournaments for years and falcon is clearly not top tier

That was many years ago, when the Melee metagame was still developing, and there were only a handful of top pros.

Now, the Melee metagame isn't developing quite as quickly. We've discovered most of the (useful) ATs and tactics. Matchups have been explored extensively. The top 25 players or so are all immensely good and would have been considered top pros in Isai's era.

With that being said, we have to examine the characters in the context of the people who play them. Let's take a look at some Jiggs results...

M2K's Fox gets beaten by Jiggs (Mango)
Mango's Falco gets beaten by Jiggs (Hbox)
Amsah's Sheik gets beaten by Jiggs (Hbox)
M2K's Marth gets beaten by Jiggs (Mango)
Armada's Peach gets beaten by Jiggs (Mango)

By intuitive reasoning, Jiggs > Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, and Peach, right?

Not necessarily....

It's probably more reasonable to conclude precisely what the results say - Mango's/Hbox's Jiggs > M2K's Fox, Mango's Falco, Amsah's Sheik, M2K's Marth, and Armada's Peach. At least for now, that is.

You can also think of it in a more Melee-oriented fashion. Suppose Mango, Hbox, M2K, Amsah, and Armada were computer players with numeric levels for specific characters. The corresponding table would probably resemble the following:

95 - Mango's Jiggs
90 - Hbox's Jiggs
85 - Mango's Falco
80 - M2K, Amsah, and Armada [and their respective character(s)]

Note: these values are obviously arbitrary and were selected primarily for demonstration

In other words, when HBox plays Jiggs, he plays like a level 90 CPU. When M2K plays Marth, he plays like a level 80 CPU. etc., etc.

In Melee, when a level 9 Jiggs beats a level 8 Marth, it does not automatically mean Jiggs is a better character than Marth. It's when a level 8 Jiggs (fairly consistently) beats a level 9 Marth that you have a strong indication of Jiggs being better than Marth. As suggested by the above table, the latter doesn't seem to be the case for Mango/Hbox, who have demonstrated exceptional skill (i.e. CPU) level with Jiggs.

Additionally, the skill (i.e. CPU) gap between Mango/Hbox and M2K, Amsah, and Armada probably is not huge at all (as is also suggested by the above table), but it's very difficult to put exact numbers to the skill of each one. For that reason, I would say that Jigglypuff is almost inarguably top tier, but her exact position is pretty much inconclusive. Imo, she's probably at least 5th.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^ this supports my theory that m2k is in fact a terminator robot sent back in time to destroy the melee metagame forever!

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah, that must be it, jigglypuff's are the only players that have "deep mental games"..

good job at completely missing my point. the theoretical strategy vs. jiggs doesn't work because there's very little room for error. mistakes are inevitable when humans are playing. the mental game in the matchup far outweighs the theoretical "jiggs can't win because fox runs around and fires lasers" idea because we don't play super theory bros. in tournament.