Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

[SDC]

Aight, you know after Pound 4 this thread would happen.

Pound 4 Melee Singles results:
1. Mango: Jigglypuff/whatever-when-he's-feeling-cocky
2. Hungrybox: Jigglypuff

Possible modification to current tier list:

Top
Fox 9.88
Marth 9.85
Sheik 9.69
Falco 9.15
Jigglypuff 9.00

High
Peach 8.35
Captain Falcon 8.00
Ice Climbers 7.88

I am not arguing that she is "god tier" or "broken" or "best character in the game", I am merely arguing that she be placed in top tier, below the rest of the top tier characters. In my opinion there should be an extra spot added to the bottom of top tier for jigglypuff. This will take a spot out of high tier, but I think it will result in a more realistic tier list.

My own ideal list:

TOP:
Fox
Sheik
Falco
Marth
Puff

Definition of "Tier list" from SmashWiki:
"A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It indicates how professional smashers expect each character to be able to perform under tournament conditions. Tiers thus measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournaments. Tier lists are common in fighting games as well as many other competitive games involving a large selection of characters, such as Pokémon.
Individual match-ups affect but do not entirely determine a character's ranking. Sometimes a character carries an advantage over a higher-ranked character — such a match-up is known as a counter. For example, if Pichu held a winning match-up against Fox but suffered from worst matchups than Fox against every other character in the game, Pichu would be considered to counter Fox but still be ranked lower than him on the tier list. If two players at the height of the known metagame fought Fox vs. Pichu, the tier list alone could not predict the average outcome of the match."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the requirements for a character being top tier are (this list is not complete, I'm not omniscient, add to this, adjust this please):

Good matchups: Name one reliable, solid counterpick to Jiggz.
KO moves/gimping ability: many KO moves, including one that KOs at dramatically low %s (rest) that can be easily comboed into, and amazing gimping ability.
Recovery: This is obvious, one of the best recoveries in the game.
Weight: One of her only weaknesses, she is incredibly light-weight, making her easy to KO (however with good DI this is not nearly as big of a problem). However this is also a strength, as it makes her incredibly hard to combo.
Tournament results: Obviously, top jigglypuff users have been finishing very well in recent tournaments.

Add to/adjust/modify/correct this list please. Let's try to avoid flaming and off-topic insults, I'd like to have an intelligent and in depth discussion on whether or not she should be top tier.

Best jiggz vs best foxes/marth, all of them recent vids:

Mango vs Jman, Brackets from Winterfest in Orlando, FL 12/19/09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkAR_jMo5nk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLCvMxQcqOw

Notice how mango refuses to rest, despite multiple opportunities, and still wins the set.

Hungrybox vs Mew2King, Brackets from Winterfest in Orlando, FL 12/19/09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOqp61sfJM0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x91Q8aV72W0&feature=related

Lol at how, in first match, Hbox misses all his rests and still wins the match

Hungrybox vs Mew2King, Loser's Finals from Winterfest in Orlando, FL 12/19/09
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ET0CdOAcU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRtxrEE92bk&feature=related

Hungrybox vs Mew2King, Winner's Finals from Tipped Off 5, 09/06/2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPX_zM3TLes&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g5Z6JwPXLY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqGqZKsgWm8&feature=related

fox may well be the best character in the game but i haven't seen anyone in the community with the endurance to play fox at the highest level possible throughout an entire tournament

jigglypuff does not require that intense physical endurance to be consistent for a 2 day tournament, at least not that i'm aware of

which is why i think she's the top contender for a #1 placement in tournament

don't forget PP won r1 vs hbox @ rom2, by like last stock last hit, and played perfectly the whole match. once you mess up you die vs jiggs.

all the top tiers have a chance @ winning tournies i just think it's really hard for fox and falco these days, particularly for fox.

This is addressed to people saying that Jigglypuff is broken:

Why do you fail to consider that Mango and HBox are extremely good players?

M2K used to play Marth and made Marth look unbeatable. Same with Ken. But then M2K also knew way more about the game, was more technically precise and consistent than anybody, and sought to pick the best option for any situation. Ken used crazy reads and risky approaches but they almost always payed off because he could read through most people. As a result of their playstyles (different though they were), Marth appeared to be unstoppable. For more than 4 years.

Look at HBox and Mango. HBox throws out aerials in the general place that people like to move, and then focuses on being safe elsewhere. He essentially exploits people's tendencies and favors safe, consistent play. The riskiest thing about him is the large quantity of rests he goes for, but when you consider how GOOD he is at resting you can hardly count it as a risk at all.

Armada himself said it after Genesis, that he got shook up by one of Mango's rests because he didn't think Mango could read him. That's what Mango does. He sees through your playstyle and hides his own intentions really well; it feels like you can't hit him because he knows where you're going to go, and what you're going to do, so he picks the appropriate counter to it. He's outthinking every other player and it makes Puff look unbeatable by association.

They're both incredibly efficient players who are good at abusing the weaknesses and playstyles of their opponents. That's it. Puff isn't broken. Go away.

--

For people saying she's top-tier: Sure. Why not? Her punishment game is incredibly powerful, she's got the mobility to implement it. Her power and recovery are balanced out somewhat by her weight, similar to how Fox and Falco are balanced by their gimpability and fall-speed.

Most importantly though is her aerial mobility, which gives her lots of potential for deceiving opponents in the hand of a smart player. Tiny adjustments to your spacing and speed can give people the impression you're going one direction when you aren't, or that you're going to be somewhere you won't. This is what gives players like Mango such a huge edge and allows him to work around characters with superior range; he's constantly working to fake out his opponents with subtle movement changes. Puff is a character that lets you work on this kind of mental level excellently. It's almost fair to say she has infinite capacity for mixup as a result.

So putting all that together, it's hard NOT to argue Puff for top tier. It's a large and heavily condensed top tier when you factor in Fox, Falco, Marth and Sheik, but I'd be willing to put her in there somewhere. But NOT in broken tier, or god tier, or even best in the game.

Jiggs today still have room for improvement. I 4 stocked Jman our first friendly at Winterfest by doing big combos.

Try this out.

Oh but I wanna say something first.

Jiggs aerials Fox once at 0% in the middle of FD then up throw rests. GUARANTEED KO. A grab in the middle of FD with perfect DI will KO fox at 11%, and Jiggs aerials do 12 >_>.

If you want a definite 0-death from a 0% grab, do up throw SH uair to regrab on Fox (yes it does work legit), then up throw rest them if they don't DI, or if they DI forward do pound rest. If they know about DIing the pound towards Jiggs, just do SH fair to regrab (this works if they DI the pound in, which is what people do to avoid the pound to rest combo)

After you SH fair to regrab them, you get a FREE DOWN THROW REST at the edge!! If they DI the down throw into Jiggs or not at all, then it combos to rest from 0 to 100%+!!! (you can F smash if you want to as well instead, or even chain grab!). The only way to avoid this is to DI away, which depending on where you are at, could be off stage, so jiggs can just jump off and fair with no risk to her at all and easily KO you!

Here's another trick you can use. Grab fox at the edge at 0%, and the Fox will expect back throw, and DI up and towards the stage.

SO JUST UP THROW REST THEM. If they don't DI the up throw fully away from Jiggs they will get comboed into a rest (or pound rest if you feel like it but that is unnecessary). So it is literally over a 50% chance of a KO no matter how you look at it in that position. Even with fully away DI (which if you back throw will most likely kill them) you can still link the up throw into a pound rest (unless they do the VERY weird option of DIing towards the stage normally instead of up and towards the stage and THEN DIing the pound towards jiggs where he is still in a horrible position. Odds are greatly, greatly in her favor of an easy KO besides all the free damage and positional advantage she is getting.

There I just named a ton of stuff jiggs don't do yet but can, besides ledge camping with Fair if they felt like it. No one "mastered" their characters yet at all, but Jiggs still has plenty of room for improvement just like the rest' of us.

@ Wobbles - Armada told me a day and a half ago in person at the hotel that he thinks Jiggs should be banned. Mango said Jiggs is dumb after pound4 ended. I don't want Jiggs banned but I do think she deserves it more than MK by comparison. The only thing MK has over Jiggs is that he's WAY more popular and gay stages help him too much which I don't think should be on in the first place. I don't support any banning except gay stages that shouldn't be on like rainbow cruise and brinstar in each game are both super stupid and should be banned.

I think we should just ban puff .. I'll be fine without her

LOL mango <3

It is quite frustrating watching people who don't even play Jigglypuff discuss the merits of the character, because you have no idea what it's like playing from the Jiggly's side. First off, I keep seeing Doc mentioned as a possible Jiggs counter, and that is just false. I've played some good Docs, and while it's not an easy matchup by any means, his lack of range and overall slow movement make it so he can't be as gay as his projectile would otherwise allow him to be. He has a rather limited and predicable recovery as well, and he can in fact be up-tilted or up-aired to a rest. Although, in his defense, his cape allows for very damaging punishments for a missed rest.

Also, after playing a lot of Sheiks, and watching some other Jiggs do the matchup, I am starting to doubt Sheik's dominance in the matchup. It is just soooooo easy to rest her, even without combos. If you hold down the whole match, you're pretty much guaranteed a rest per stock lol. Also, she can't kill you from a missed rest at 30% like most of the other top tiers, so you can spam rest a lot more against her. Her strongest move is upsmash, and it doesn't kill until after 50 or 60 on most stages. She could always change to Zelda and use the toe to kill earlier, but most Sheiks don't think about that, and don't use Zelda enough to be able to properly space the attack.

Marth is a little different. His lack of a projectile makes it harder for him to effectively play gay/campy against Jigglypuff, but his sword has some stupid range. The biggest problem is that it is actually a lot easier to punish him than some people think. An errant shielded forward smash or an ill-timed grab means he just lost a stock, and even without rest Jigglypuff can very effectively edgeguard him despite his **** sword.

Fox is the only true counter to Jiggs, and even then it's only slight because of how easily she can **** him up if he makes the smallest of mistakes. Screw up a wavedash or miss an l-cancel too close to Jiggylpuff, and you've basically forfeited your stock. However, if you keep your distance, you are allowed more mistakes. Big stages like Dreamland actually favor Fox in this match-up, because it allows him more room to retreat. I have long hated Dreamland because I have a friend who has learned to play extremely campy, and it is next to impossible to catch a determinedly gay Fox on that stage.

Jigglypuff wins, more than anythign else, because she is the best punisher in the game. Sure, her aerials are pretty **** good and her aerial mobility make her pretty hard to track down most of the time, but she beats most people because she can punish the smallest of errors with a one frame kill move. The key to defeating her is to reduce the number of mistakes you make, but more importantly to reduce the number of OPPORTUNITIES you have to make mistakes. Any time you approach or make the first move, you are opening yourself up to making a mistake because you are giving the Jigglypuff a chance to react to your action, which in turn makes you adjust to meet their move. When you force them to make all the first moves, you won't make as many mistakes that can be punished with rest.

Jigglypuff is an extremely good character, and I would not disagree with adding her in the top tier. However, I do think that Marth and Falco are pretty even with her, and that Fox is slightly better.

I'll try to keep this post updated with the most current arguments.
Discuss

 

[Charlesz]

Thats seems pretty accurate imo, but DBR aint gonna change the tier list =]

 

[Siglemic]

I know, the list needs changing badly

puff dittos were so stupid

 

[AceSox]

Seems, debatable. I'm no competitive expert, but maybe putting Puff below Peach might be a better spot. :/
Just a thought.

 

[-ACE-]

Puff is top tier. Whether they change that stupid "final" tier list or not, she is.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

NO SHE ISNT......

if you want to straight up talk about characters, puff deserves to be directly below peach.

troll logic:
Player A wins a large tournament with Character X, therefore Character X is top tier.

I don't think anyone needs a counter example to see how flawed this logic is.

 

[Zatchiel]

Jiggs is one of my mains in melee and brawl, she is awesome in both hands down...
JIGGLYPUFF IS! TOP TIER!(In melee)

 

[Stev]

Where was the NEXT placing puff?

 

[Siglemic]

Puff has been placing well in tournaments so consistently

She deserves to be in top tier

 

[S.G.]

If Mango can win tournaments with his spacies/falcon/sheik/grandma's wheelchair, why does him winning with his best character equate to said character being god tier?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So mango and hbox aren't amazing players, they just happen to use a broken character? I think its much more likely that they use a pretty good character (tied for 6th spot) and are just talented at reading their opponents and controlling the stage.

 

[Zatchiel]

Maybe you havent seen my post, ill be nice, Look at Post Lucky #7, If you dont understand that, you are NOT Melee Potential....

 

[SDC]

I've added the following to my original post:

I am not arguing that she is "god tier" or "broken" or "best character in the game", I am merely arguing that she be placed in top tier, below the rest of the top tier characters. In my opinion there should be an extra spot added to the bottom of top tier for jigglypuff. This will take a spot out of high tier, but I think it will result in a more realistic tier list.

Correct me if I wrong, but the requirements for a character being top tier are (this list is not complete, I'm not omniscient, add to this, adjust this please):

Good matchups: Name one reliable, solid counterpick to Jiggz.
KO moves/gimping ability: many KO moves, including one that KOs at dramatically low %s (rest) that can be easily comboed into, and amazing gimping ability.
Recovery: This is obvious, one of the best recoveries in the game.
Weight: One of her only weaknesses, she is incredibly light-weight, making her easy to KO. However this is also a strength, as it makes her incredibly hard to combo.
Tournament results: Obviously, top jigglypuff users have been finishing very well in recent tournaments.

Add to/adjust/modify/correct this list please. I'd like an intelligent and in depth discussion on whether or not she should be top tier.

 

[Zatchiel]

Jigglypuff is one of the most reliable chars in the game...That Rest is almost a OHKO on everybody...

 

[Keblerelf]

You are always at death % when playing against jigglypuff.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I agree with seanthedonconsidine, I don't see puff going down.

 

[Brightside6382]

Good matchups: Name one reliable, solid counterpick to Jiggz.
KO moves/gimping ability: many KO moves, including one that KOs at dramatically low %s (rest) that can be easily comboed into, and amazing gimping ability.
Recovery: This is obvious, one of the best recoveries in the game.
Weight: One of her only weaknesses, she is incredibly light-weight, making her easy to KO. However this is also a strength, as it makes her incredibly hard to combo.
Tournament results: Obviously, top jigglypuff users have been finishing very well in recent tournaments.

Add to/adjust/modify/correct this list please.

1. Name one reliable counter-pick for Fox, Falco, Shiek, Marth. Overall these characters have better matchups in general.

2. All the characters in top and high tier can gimp at extremely low % and have many reliable kill moves with the exception of Marth.

3. She has that

4. You forget that she gets camped very easily. That's her fatal flaw

5. Mango and Hbox are more then 2 people? Look directly below these two and you'll find an onslaught of Fox's, Falcon's, Falco's, etc.

 

[TheManaLord]

Old news brother.

Jiggs is not top tier. She's the BEST in the game and in top tier BY HERSELF.

To say otherwise is ****ing ignorant. This isn't pound 3. It's pound 4. now there's TWO unstoppable puff mains.

the MBR needs to SHAPE THE FUKC UP and start to update some ****.

 

[ETWIST51294]

LOL show me ONE match where Hbox died below 100% thats not on YS.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

LOL show me ONE match where Hbox died below 100% thats not on YS.

Amen brother

Ppl have learned how to di, it's crazy.

 

[Zatchiel]

No, if the other player is good enough, its nt always 0-death, DI has most effect on it anyway...

 

[TheManaLord]

Nobody remembers genesis? Or all the other tournaments of the past two to three years? Puffs are all around. Get over it. She's the best. ******s. I hate most of you who disagree with me because it's so **** obvious.

 

[Zatchiel]

Wow, jiggs may not go down easy, but if i was Jiggs and it was a ditto, jeez, your life would be no more fun...

 

[SDC]

Old news brother.

Jiggs is not top tier. She's the BEST in the game and in top tier BY HERSELF.

To say otherwise is ****ing ignorant. This isn't pound 3. It's pound 4. now there's TWO unstoppable puff mains.

the MBR needs to SHAPE THE FUKC UP and start to update some ****.

I hate most of you who disagree with me because it's so **** obvious.

No offense, and I'm not sure if you're trolling lol, but can we try to avoid posts like this? This doesn't help the discussion at all, and will only provoke incendiary replies from those who don't agree. Thanks.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

If this keeps on going the list must change, seriously. Yeah, I'm whining here lol

 

[Zatchiel]

Sure, no prob, But i sure dont think that ANY jigglypuff player is going
down too easily, if they land rest even once, the match is decided...

 

[ETWIST51294]

M2K and Hbox both agree that Jiggs is the best character.

 

[Zodiac]

No, jiggly puff is not top tier, her meta game is still developing so every time they find out the match up it develops and the matchup has to be adujusted, when her meta game slows down, like it starting to right now, she will get ***** by marth and sheik.

 

[-ACE-]

NO SHE ISNT......

if you want to straight up talk about characters, puff deserves to be directly below peach.

troll logic:
Player A wins a large tournament with Character X, therefore Character X is top tier.

I don't think anyone needs a counter example to see how flawed this logic is.

Lol. I never said she's the best in the game. How many national and GLOBAL tournaments will puff have to place high at for people to see the truth? 3 puffs in top 5 at RoM2, Puff ditto GF's at Pound 4, and Mango HAS TO PICK PUFF TO BEAT HBOX. Hello? lol.

 

[Zatchiel]

I agree That Jigglypuff is the Best character in Melee.....

 

[TheManaLord]

****s been discussed through and through since the beginning of Mango's rise. The discussion is OVER the MBR has to get off their ****ing fat lazy ***** and do something that helps the community like reflect the changes over the YEARS they've been idle.

A ****ing useless relic.


People are either A. in denial because they don't WANT puff to be the best
or B. stupid if they don't think she IS the best

and I don't care who you are I detest you as a person if you fall under either category.

 

[SDC]

No, jiggly puff is not top tier, her meta game is still developing so every time they find out the match up it develops and the matchup has to be adujusted, when her meta game slows down, like it starting to right now, she will get ***** by marth and sheik.

Yes, her metagame is still developing. But I don't agree that it's slowing down. If anything, it's just getting better. I don't know Pound 4's complete results, but jigglypuff's performance has improved with Pound 4, from the top 3 finishers, to the top 2 finishers. A dominant top 2 at that. Once the videos of Pound 4 are released, I hope it will become apparent to everyone how convincingly Hbox (not even talking about Mango) defeats the other top tier characters.

 

[-ACE-]

I don't think she's better than Fox, but that's all I can really say at this point.

 

[ETWIST51294]

And lol at Jiggs getting ***** by Sheik. Hbox 3-0'd Amsah and missed like 3 rests in the fist match and still 2 stock him.

 

[Zatchiel]

Fox? is that it? ive seen IC Players Destroy fox players, and ive seen a Jigglypuff player
Kill them both in less than 5 minutes!

 

[-ACE-]

Fox? is that it? ive seen IC Players Destroy fox players, and ive seen a Jigglypuff player
Kill them both in less than 5 minutes!

Lol. Hopefully you're trolling.

ManaLord laying down the law haha

 

[SDC]

****s been discussed through and through since the beginning of Mango's rise. The discussion is OVER the MBR has to get off their ****ing fat lazy ***** and do something that helps the community like reflect the changes over the YEARS they've been idle.

A ****ing useless relic.


People are either A. in denial because they don't WANT puff to be the best
or B. stupid if they don't think she IS the best

and I don't care who you are I detest you as a person if you fall under either category.

*sigh* Please see my previous reply to your posts:

No offense, and I'm not sure if you're trolling lol, but can we try to avoid posts like this? This doesn't help the discussion at all, and will only provoke incendiary replies from those who don't agree. Thanks.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Fox doesn't have a good recovery and is very easily gimped

 

[Zatchiel]

True, you have knowledge, And Fox's Recovery is where anybody can take atvantage, even a pichu....

 

[SDC]

Fox doesn't have a good recovery and is very easily gimped

Fox's recovery is actually quite good, it takes a great deal of skill to gimp him effectively, consistently, and reliably. Good fox mains know how to mix up and diversify their recovery so they don't get gimped so easily. Just because Armada makes it look easy, that doesn't mean it is lol.