Jigglypuff for Top Tier?

[Fortress | Sveet]

I vote for unbanning hyrule as a CP in order to counter the imbalance that is puff

 

[Rappster]

i say that AT THE MOMENT, jiggs is top tier.

according to smashwiki (nothing else had a definition) "A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It indicates how professional smashers expect each character to be able to perform under tournament conditions."

but how do you measure metagame?

super theory bros is part of it, but just as important are tournament results, because that's where expectations meet reality (theoretical probability vs experimental probability).

At the Moment, it seems to be the case that Jigglypuff, when played as well as humanely possible, tends to perform as well or better than the best fox/sheik/falco/marth/etc.

Therefore, it makes sense to move jiggs up to top tier for now, but that position may well be temporary.

Also, Tiers are decided by the votes of prominent smashers (or at least smashers that are put it into the MBR), so if they believe Jiggs is good enough, xe'll be in

 

[dch111]

good job at completely missing my point. the theoretical strategy vs. jiggs doesn't work because there's very little room for error. mistakes are inevitable when humans are playing. the mental game in the matchup far outweighs the theoretical "jiggs can't win because fox runs around and fires lasers" idea because we don't play super theory bros. in tournament.

Quoted for truth. The tier list doesn't (though I think it isn't meant to) take into account player mistakes. Marths these days aren't building that "perfect wall of sword swipes" very well.

I think part of the whole argument lies in what people think the tier list represents, and expect it to show. For actual tournament results, I'd argue that human Marths will never get that theoretically perfect sword wall going to achieve that tier list ideal (I have seen some early M2K matches that came close though). If you made a separate list where it is assumed the players make a mistake about every 20 seconds, Puff might be higher. Puff mistakes, even missed Rests* are more forgiving than when someone makes a mistake versus Puff (often combos to a Rest, or at least a Fsmash or bunch of Bairs, which are on par with other good characters' punishes. but ****, that Rest).


*you can afford one about once every other stock when you're at low percent...it's usually worth it if you can guess 50/50 as we've seen in tournament matches

 

[Strong Badam]

ahhh it's nice to see random people discussing the deep inner workings of the game.

 

[Cosmopolitan]

super theory bros.

lol

So basically what you're getting at is that a tier list that's representative of each character's practical potential shouldn't be based on the results you would probably get if the matches were all tool-assisted. With tool-assistance, the match is virtually 100% technical. When humans are playing, there's technique and there's mindgames. Not only does technique vary from player to player, but it also lacks the consistency that tool-assistance can generate. And beyond that, mindgames adds an entirely different dimension to the game that makes the metagame picture even hazier.

Clearly, the human element has to be taken into consideration. Because Jigglypuff doesn't have nearly as much technical potential as characters like Fox and Falco, and thus relies more on a combination of mindgames and patience (i.e. waiting for the more technically oriented players to make a mistake), she is far less prone to technical error. Even when she doesn't space optimally, her incredible DI can usually take her out of harm's way. Thus, Jiggs is generally considered a "safe" character, and when used with good mindgames, patience, and knowledge (e.g. frame data and hitboxes), she produces superb results.

 

[dch111]

Clearly, the human element has to be taken into consideration. Because Jigglypuff doesn't have nearly as much technical potential as characters like Fox and Falco, and thus relies more on a combination of mindgames and patience (i.e. waiting for the more technically oriented players to make a mistake), she is far less prone to technical error. Even when she doesn't space optimally, her incredible DI can usually take her out of harm's way. Thus, Jiggs is generally considered a "safe" character, and when used with good mindgames, patience, and knowledge (e.g. frame data and hitboxes), she produces superb results.

Yeah, agreed. It took me awhile to understand what the tier list really meant in relation to actual tournament performance of each character in practice.

 

[Strong Badam]

i read cosmopolitan's post and i don't see where he disagreed with me, or even commented about my post

 

[Brick_Top]

I think he only said "lol" to "super theory bros", and the rest of the post is in response to the op. I was confused as well, but I think that's what happened.

 

[Cosmopolitan]

I was addressing Strong_Bad's post. I just went ahead and explained it in more detail since he had a pretty good point.

 

[Brick_Top]

yea, but at the top of the last page, he proposed that tier lists don't matter, so I don't really understand what point you were enforcing? idk, i'm confused

 

[Strong Badam]

o ok

my previous point stands though. tiers are pointless to argue about. we'd get a lot more accomplished if we just played the game rather than arguing about tier lists on the internets.
most good players have their own opinion of the tier list. heck, the MBR have varying lists and that's how the lists are made; averaging them.
tier lists in Marvel or Guilty Gear are never updated because no one cares about them and they just play the game and get better. i really wish Melee players were more like other fighting game communities in that respect.

 

[napZzz]

she's the best character in melee. easy.

 

[Cosmopolitan]

Yeah...tiers give you an idea of how characters generally perform, but they don't say much about how well characters can perform - just look at Taj, Fumi, Aniki, etc. You shouldn't really let tiers dictate your character choice unless you care only about winning (with the least amount of effort).

 

[BBQ°]

I think Jiggs definitely deserves to be top tier. I would even say top 3.

I think the main argument is that Mango and Hbox are just better than everyone else, and because of that, they are winning tourneys, not necessarily because of the character.

But something just really gets to me when Mango's Fox got ***** by Hbox's jiggs. Mango is the better player, right? Yet the best Jigglypuff counter (Fox) can't beat the less-skilled player (Hbox).

And don't say Mango's fox isn't good enough. Mango's fox ***** Hbox at winterfest.

 

[victra♥]

I like it when mango goes jiggs when he has to win.

I also like how hbox is only good with jiggs.

but no man. Jiggs sucks. The players are just too good. They can win multiple tourneys with any character.

Because that happens all the time, especially during 2009.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

WIN with ice climbers and ness I would love to see that, they are both really hard to be good as.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Mango can win tournaments with his spacies/falcon/sheik/grandma's wheelchair, why does him winning with his best character equate to said character being god tier?

I think him switching off Falco against Armada at Genesis, and him switching off Fox to Puff at Pound 4, and him playing winner's finals at Winterthing as Puff, and him playing Puff against Hbox at Genesis, and him playing Puff against Hbox at Pound 4 in winner's finals is sufficient reason to question this statement.

Mango, you up for going all Falcon at Apex?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

KK maybe you can answer this.

Why is it surprising in any respect to see someone play their main when they absolutely want a win?

If Mango sandbagged like hell playing CF all tournament, then in the finals he wanted to play serious and went puff, how does that say anything about puff's tier ranking when there are tons of factors that went into the decision (he's comfortable with the character, he has the most experience with puff... ect)



edit- addressing these posts

but how do you measure metagame?

you could probably do it mathmatically if you averaged all the potential options weighed against risk/reward

but once you start playing on a high level you can see it pretty clear.

super theory bros is part of it, but just as important are tournament results, because that's where expectations meet reality (theoretical probability vs experimental probability).

theres probability involved? i thought it was about player skill and character matchups....

in any case, tournaments show the prowess of the players not so much as the character.

At the Moment, it seems to be the case that Jigglypuff, when played as well as humanely possible, tends to perform as well or better than the best fox/sheik/falco/marth/etc.

Therefore, it makes sense to move jiggs up to top tier for now, but that position may well be temporary.

this relationship is non-existant.... for example, what is "as well as humanly possible". do you think mango plays "as well as humanly possible"? i think hes pretty good but probably still far from that.

if you want to go to human limits, i think fox or marth are still the best because spacing and tech skill to that degree is perfectly within human potential even though nobody has done it in a while.

ahhh it's nice to see random people discussing the deep inner workings of the game.

I think Jiggs definitely deserves to be top tier. I would even say top 3.

I think the main argument is that Mango and Hbox are just better than everyone else, and because of that, they are winning tourneys, not necessarily because of the character.

But something just really gets to me when Mango's Fox got ***** by Hbox's jiggs. Mango is the better player, right? Yet the best Jigglypuff counter (Fox) can't beat the less-skilled player (Hbox).

And don't say Mango's fox isn't good enough. Mango's fox ***** Hbox at winterfest.

mango played 1 game as fox, and was ******* around. He wasn't very warmed up and was making a lot of mistakes. Even with that, he only lost by 1 stock.... Hardly call that "****"

I like it when mango goes jiggs when he has to win.

I also like how hbox is only good with jiggs.

but no man. Jiggs sucks. The players are just too good. They can win multiple tourneys with any character.

Because that happens all the time, especially during 2009.

strawman argument so hard. nobody has said puff sucks, and in any other competitive game with 25+ characters, 6th best is still good enough to win tournaments if the most talented players play the character.

 

[napZzz]

KK maybe you can answer this.

Why is it surprising in any respect to see someone play their main when they absolutely want a win?

If Mango sandbagged like hell playing CF all tournament, then in the finals he wanted to play serious and went puff, how does that say anything about puff's tier ranking when there are tons of factors that went into the decision (he's comfortable with the character, he has the most experience with puff... ect)

puffs his main because puff is better than all these other trash characters. So when he needs a win he goes to the god tier rest machine.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

puffs his main because puff is better than all these other trash characters. So when he needs a win he goes to the god tier rest machine.

idk i remember him playing puff before he beat m2k...

he plays puff for his own reasons.

 

[victra♥]

We should host more super theory bros tournaments. Sounds like a pretty fun game.

 

[t3h Icy]

The way Hungrybox plays doesn't allow for several character to recover safely vs Rest. Watching Amsah vs Hungrybox, Hungrybox would grab the edge and when Amsah used Vanish onto the stage, Hungrybox would Rest him. With Fox and Falco, it's harder to do, but he's done it against Phantasm many times. Marth, Peach, Jigglypuff and characters that don't have so much landing lag from their recovery moves are much safer. Of course though, that's not even mentioning Bair and Fair gimping.

I really think a lower tier character will be the counter to Jigglypuff, since most of the higher ones seems to be seriously exploited against Jigglypuff in some way.

I'm also wondering about how Kage would do against Mango again. Kage couldn't beat Hungrybox and lost to Darc (I believe) at Pound 4, so I think it's just Mango.

I want to see Dark Hart vs Hungrybox. =)

 

[Mew2King]

I was talking to armada last night. We both want Jiggs banned.

edit - idc if it happens cuz I know it won't, just saying. Smashboards underrates that character so much.

 

[victra♥]

Wow, Jiggs banned? Really? I think Jiggs is like...the best character, but not banned worthy.

I suppose if you look at it from an outside perspective, a character who can combo into a OHKO move at as low as 0% is pretty ****.

 

[MateriYA]

I was talking to armada last night. We both want Jiggs banned.

edit - idc if it happens cuz I know it won't, just saying. Smashboards underrates that character so much.

i agree, jiggs`ruins this game

 

[Overswarm]

I was talking to armada last night. We both want Jiggs banned.

edit - idc if it happens cuz I know it won't, just saying. Smashboards underrates that character so much.

Why not try a different character? Who knows, it could be something like DK or Samus that could end up being a jiggly counter. Maybe someone with a great up+b punish out of shield if Jiggs is attempting to shield pressure, or someone that has a great early % vertical KO?

 

[t3h Icy]

There's 25 other characters, someone has to be capable.

 

[Devil Ray]

i don't think jiggs ruins the game, but hungrybox is sorta hurting the game. all the practice and work ppl put into their chars is ruined by a non-technical, campy, bair-only jigglypuff.

 

[Eggm]

Cactuar, " Of course a character with a 1 hit kill move is eventually going to be the best".

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I was talking to armada last night. We both want Jiggs banned.

This made me laugh

E: So I guess it's safe to assume that the tier list won't change no matter what, even if Jiggs reigned for the next ten years it wouldn't make a difference. If so, I can stop whining and go home. Please, could someone clarify this?

E2: I find it funny anyway, that after so many years a Jiggs main can do so good at tourneys spamming two aerials.

 

[Mew2King]

I am getting really tired of this game though in all seriousness. I always choke, let people down, lose a lot of money which I need in the process, and it makes me really sad. Smash sucks now

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I am getting really tired of this game though in all seriousness. I always choke, let people down, lose a lot of money which I need in the process, and it makes me really sad. Smash sucks now

Nah dude, you're really amazing. Being able to place 2nd in Brawl and 5th in Melee in a biggest tournament to date is something that everyone should respect . I mean, being able to be so good at two very different games at the same time, good **** M2K.

E: Sucks though that Plank was such an *** with you guys.

 

[Paradigm]

Who knows, it could be something like ... Samus that could end up being a jiggly counter.

lol OS you so silly

 

[Overswarm]

From what I saw, there are only two things you need to be good vs. Jiggly:

A good punishment for him bairing your shield (up+b OoS is the big thing here)

A good vertical KO for if Jiggs mispaces

 

[Dark Sonic]

A good punishment for him bairing your shield (up+b OoS is the big thing here)

....bair is safe on block <_<. No character can REACH Jigglypuff before she's out of lag (so Samus is out of the question here, and DK's up B might simply not be fast enough...like Link's)



...maybe if people start powershielding bairs like they do lasers (the window is technically larger after all, it might not be IMPOSSIBLE), we can start looking at other punishment options (maybe Marth can uptilt or d-smash or something. That'd certainly be **** lol).

But...I don't expect people to do that consistantly anytime soon.

 

[Overswarm]

....bair is safe on block <_<. No character can REACH Jigglypuff before she's out of lag (so Samus is out of the question here, and DK's up B might simply not be fast enough...like Link's)

I know for a fact Marth can up+b OoS. If Jiggs is at a high enough % or there is a platform above Marth for him to land on, Marth can up+b and hit Jiggs. I used to do it pre-emptively all the time.

Just because he's attempting to bair your shield doesn't mean you have to let him. I don't care if you up+b before his bair reaches you or even if you roll towards him with perfect timing and then do something, there are always answers.

 

[TheManaLord]

Nothing works it's been eight years. We are all smart enough. There is nothing. She should be banned but it's way too late.

People don't even want to trust their smash idols? M2K Amsah Armada and tons of other who carry the same ideas.

People are ********.

 

[황미영]

People just need to space better and punish when able.
If everyone's crazy technical playstyle isn't working against jiggs, then just try to gay it up a bit more.
And also, can't you just use a projectile after block the bair? There a plenty of options out there people just need to figure out what is the best one.

And yes I suck so I have no clue what I am talking about.

 

[Niko45]

Didn't read the topic, don't want to get bogged down in the madness I'm sure is taking place here, but I will just weigh in that anybody saying Puff is NOT top tier is completely and utterly delusional. Facts are facts. We're looking at like 2+ years of complete dominance.

The debate should be whether or not Puff is top CHARACTER, and even the case against Jiggs being the best is pretty difficult at this point.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I personally see Jiggs for 3rd, after Fox and Falco.