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I vote for unbanning hyrule as a CP in order to counter the imbalance that is puff
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Quoted for truth. The tier list doesn't (though I think it isn't meant to) take into account player mistakes. Marths these days aren't building that "perfect wall of sword swipes" very well.good job at completely missing my point. the theoretical strategy vs. jiggs doesn't work because there's very little room for error. mistakes are inevitable when humans are playing. the mental game in the matchup far outweighs the theoretical "jiggs can't win because fox runs around and fires lasers" idea because we don't play super theory bros. in tournament.
lolsuper theory bros.
Yeah, agreed. It took me awhile to understand what the tier list really meant in relation to actual tournament performance of each character in practice.Clearly, the human element has to be taken into consideration. Because Jigglypuff doesn't have nearly as much technical potential as characters like Fox and Falco, and thus relies more on a combination of mindgames and patience (i.e. waiting for the more technically oriented players to make a mistake), she is far less prone to technical error. Even when she doesn't space optimally, her incredible DI can usually take her out of harm's way. Thus, Jiggs is generally considered a "safe" character, and when used with good mindgames, patience, and knowledge (e.g. frame data and hitboxes), she produces superb results.
I think him switching off Falco against Armada at Genesis, and him switching off Fox to Puff at Pound 4, and him playing winner's finals at Winterthing as Puff, and him playing Puff against Hbox at Genesis, and him playing Puff against Hbox at Pound 4 in winner's finals is sufficient reason to question this statement.If Mango can win tournaments with his spacies/falcon/sheik/grandma's wheelchair, why does him winning with his best character equate to said character being god tier?
you could probably do it mathmatically if you averaged all the potential options weighed against risk/rewardbut how do you measure metagame?
theres probability involved? i thought it was about player skill and character matchups....super theory bros is part of it, but just as important are tournament results, because that's where expectations meet reality (theoretical probability vs experimental probability).
this relationship is non-existant.... for example, what is "as well as humanly possible". do you think mango plays "as well as humanly possible"? i think hes pretty good but probably still far from that.At the Moment, it seems to be the case that Jigglypuff, when played as well as humanely possible, tends to perform as well or better than the best fox/sheik/falco/marth/etc.
Therefore, it makes sense to move jiggs up to top tier for now, but that position may well be temporary.
ahhh it's nice to see random people discussing the deep inner workings of the game.
mango played 1 game as fox, and was ******* around. He wasn't very warmed up and was making a lot of mistakes. Even with that, he only lost by 1 stock.... Hardly call that "****"I think Jiggs definitely deserves to be top tier. I would even say top 3.
I think the main argument is that Mango and Hbox are just better than everyone else, and because of that, they are winning tourneys, not necessarily because of the character.
But something just really gets to me when Mango's Fox got ***** by Hbox's jiggs. Mango is the better player, right? Yet the best Jigglypuff counter (Fox) can't beat the less-skilled player (Hbox).
And don't say Mango's fox isn't good enough. Mango's fox ***** Hbox at winterfest.
strawman argument so hard. nobody has said puff sucks, and in any other competitive game with 25+ characters, 6th best is still good enough to win tournaments if the most talented players play the character.I like it when mango goes jiggs when he has to win.
I also like how hbox is only good with jiggs.
but no man. Jiggs sucks. The players are just too good. They can win multiple tourneys with any character.
Because that happens all the time, especially during 2009.
puffs his main because puff is better than all these other trash characters. So when he needs a win he goes to the god tier rest machine.KK maybe you can answer this.
Why is it surprising in any respect to see someone play their main when they absolutely want a win?
If Mango sandbagged like hell playing CF all tournament, then in the finals he wanted to play serious and went puff, how does that say anything about puff's tier ranking when there are tons of factors that went into the decision (he's comfortable with the character, he has the most experience with puff... ect)
idk i remember him playing puff before he beat m2k...puffs his main because puff is better than all these other trash characters. So when he needs a win he goes to the god tier rest machine.
i agree, jiggs`ruins this gameI was talking to armada last night. We both want Jiggs banned.
edit - idc if it happens cuz I know it won't, just saying. Smashboards underrates that character so much.
Why not try a different character? Who knows, it could be something like DK or Samus that could end up being a jiggly counter. Maybe someone with a great up+b punish out of shield if Jiggs is attempting to shield pressure, or someone that has a great early % vertical KO?I was talking to armada last night. We both want Jiggs banned.
edit - idc if it happens cuz I know it won't, just saying. Smashboards underrates that character so much.
This made me laughI was talking to armada last night. We both want Jiggs banned.
Nah dude, you're really amazing. Being able to place 2nd in Brawl and 5th in Melee in a biggest tournament to date is something that everyone should respect . I mean, being able to be so good at two very different games at the same time, good **** M2K.I am getting really tired of this game though in all seriousness. I always choke, let people down, lose a lot of money which I need in the process, and it makes me really sad. Smash sucks now
lol OS you so sillyWho knows, it could be something like ... Samus that could end up being a jiggly counter.
....bair is safe on block <_<. No character can REACH Jigglypuff before she's out of lag (so Samus is out of the question here, and DK's up B might simply not be fast enough...like Link's)A good punishment for him bairing your shield (up+b OoS is the big thing here)
I know for a fact Marth can up+b OoS. If Jiggs is at a high enough % or there is a platform above Marth for him to land on, Marth can up+b and hit Jiggs. I used to do it pre-emptively all the time.....bair is safe on block <_<. No character can REACH Jigglypuff before she's out of lag (so Samus is out of the question here, and DK's up B might simply not be fast enough...like Link's)