Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee

[momochuu]

Well, like two Peach mains posted here. Not helpful at all, lol. I'm gonna save this match-up for later.


Next matchup is King Dedede.

 

[Smoom77]

Well, from what I've learned before, a lot of it's based on desyncing.

Blizzards practically beat out anything that he has. (Watch out, I believe his ftilt can go through if they space it right)
We can do the most dthrows (not alts) on him out of all characters. 33 THROWS!

I don't much on it. I just use lots of blizzards.

 

[Funen1]

I haven't fought any Dededes recently, but there is something that concerns me. Not long ago, Seibrik was going around saying that, through the use of D-air camping (his D-air outranges ours, I believe), this matchup was notably in Dedede's favor. Now, I'm inclined to disagree with that, as given Dedede's atrocious horizontal aerial speed the Ice Climbers would be able to reposition themselves if need be. Has anyone else here ever had Seibrik try this on them, and has it given you any real trouble?

 

[Firestormzero0]

i hate it when DDD's stand next to the edge and they suck you in when you try to grab them cuz then you try and break out and do a B move on accident and then either you die cuz nana got sucked up and you got throw off the edge and u fall to ur death. or nana dies cuz u got sucked up and nana fell to her death. Sad Days

 

[FrozenHobo]

i hate it when DDD's stand next to the edge and they suck you in when you try to grab them cuz then you try and break out and do a B move on accident and then either you die cuz nana got sucked up and you got throw off the edge and u fall to ur death. or nana dies cuz u got sucked up and nana fell to her death. Sad Days

or just ice block them if they try to camp the ledge. running into it is kind of asking for ****.

 

[Firestormzero0]

or just ice block them if they try to camp the ledge. running into it is kind of asking for ****.

Yes, i know this now! not then!

 

[Snipa4800]

Seibrik was going around saying that, through the use of D-air camping (his D-air outranges ours, I believe), this matchup was notably in Dedede's favor. Now, I'm inclined to disagree with that, as given Dedede's atrocious horizontal aerial speed the Ice Climbers would be able to reposition themselves if need be. Has anyone else here ever had Seibrik try this on them, and has it given you any real trouble?

Seibrik d-air camped me and the majority of the time I managed to get the uair in , he kept the match close though.

 

[Gates]

**** THIS MATCHUP.

Seibrik has good ideas for Dedede dair camping with ICs and it certainly helps the matchup, but it's really more like prolonging the inevitable than completely turning it around into Dedede's advantage. The ICs just take advantage of all of Dedede's weaknesses.

We have trouble with campers; you outcamp us.
We have trouble with people who punish us well; you can kill us off a grab.
We're big and avoiding **** is not easy; you throw Ice Blocks, Blizzards, hammers, and grabs at us and there's no way we can avoid it all.
A large majority of our metagame is focused around our grabs; we can't grab you until we kill Nana.

70:30 Ice Climbers' favor. If you know the chaingrabs, desynchs, and other basic stuff, you really shouldn't lose this. The only thing Dedede can really do is CP to a gay stage like Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise, but everyone does that to you guys so it's hardly worth mentioning.

And I'll say it again,

**** THIS MATCHUP.



AND NANA IS A CHEATING *****.

 

[Jupz]

I agree with Gates but don't think its that far in the IC's favour. Not sure what the ratio is though. Desynched blizzards can be beaten by Dair but your Uair can hit us in between Dairs. Or you could just wait until we land which will be tough for us. Dedede has a tough time getting through walls of Uair and Blizzard. Blizzard reduces our options to just a few and Uair slices through the remaining options, except for maybe spacing Ftilt. Waddles also don't go through blizzard because they have a hurtbox (though gordo's do).

Dedede can gimp Nana well however and maybe land an Fsmash on her.

 

[Prawn]

I'd say 60-40

if you're quick and unexpected about it you can bthrow or fthrow one of the climbers usually.

also air/platform camping works cause D3's dair > our uair iirc.

inb4 lain and atomsk hopefully?

 

[Diddyknight]

Meh, the match can go both ways assuming if both camp eachother. If both know what to do generally, they will camp near the ledge T_T

DDD can do to us:

Gimp us if were offstage
can seperate us from a grab
can keep us seperated too

T_T both yeah, this match is mostly is in IC favor >_>

 

[DTP]

Luigi Boards are discussing the IC's Match up!

Discussion JUST started so hopefully we can get a good amount of info right from the get go. Any input from you guys would be awesome and greatly appreciated

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=252978

 

[Fogo]

I say it's 70:30, in agreement with gates for the most part, but i feel like unless it's lain or other ic's at top level they're pretty easy to read.

Like a lot of scrub ic players dash > shield, and as DDD you can pivot grab that easy. Plus pivot grab beats ic dash grab. But the camp/desynch stuff is ******** , no answer for that besides a perfectly spaced bair > Blitzkrieg on nana lol

Oh and Dair camping is -ok- but they can wait and just uair us, it's nowhere near as effective as mk's =/

 

[momochuu]

No Dededes. Gonna move on. This isn't a matchup that takes a while to discuss anyway.

Next character is Donkey Kong.

 

[r3d d09]

Blizz wall, desynced IB and just for meep. pivot grabs = win

 

[swordgard]

Blizz wall, desynced IB and just for meep. pivot grabs = win

Hmm.


Down-b=no blizz wall. Charged dk punch= no blizz wall. Pivot grab= win.

 

[FrozenHobo]

its in our favor. i'm just sure how far.

 

[meepxzero]

60:40 ice climbers.

Donkey Kong can kill ice climbers in a few hits so he is not to be underestimated.

Blizzard wall ***** him. You can approach with ice block chaser, but if they ps then u cant really punish them.

His up b is impossible to beat so just shield the entire thing or roll away if you can.

Dont mess up infinites.

 

[Ambient_Horizon]

I'm a new ICs player so if anything sounds ******** you now know why.

I'd say this is 60-40 in ICs favor also.

Dk has outrageously high KO potential which can spell disaster for someone that's not cautious. He has WAY too many kill moves. Giant Punch, All of his Smashes, Headbutt can set up. And he has 3 spikes. If you let him separate you from Nana you'll likely see her eat a spike.

Also his range is ******** as well. His Ground Clap and F Tilt are great for getting grounded opponents out of his face. Giant Punch and F Smash kill early as **** and reach far as hell. Beware.

And Dks can that abuse their SA frames are scary. Multi hit moves can neutralize this sometimes.

Generally we can beat him in the air just beware of his Bair. Great range and it can chain a few times.

Lastly never stay under DK. You will not win.

As far as advantages ICs can juggle him all day. Blizzard Walls **** him. DKs blindspot is 45 degrees in front of him. Basically in his face. Its not that hard to set him up for a grab and when you do you can get that stock easy. He has a massive frame so the timing on grabbing him is less strict than most. Seriously F Throw to F Throw is so easy on him its stupid.

Also DKs have issues with spammable projectiles. Desynch a Ice Block while he's on the defensive to tack the pressure on.

That's all I have for now. Hopefully that didn't sound too ********.

 

[Ambient_Horizon]

Sorry for the double post. For some reason I can't edit my posts.

Correction: Never stay ABOVE DK not under.

 

[swordgard]

Also, dk punch>blizzwall lmao.

 

[Ambient_Horizon]

And that. That move is ******** powerful.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

The wolf boards are discussing the Ice Climbers matchup. Any input in appreciated.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237768&page=33

 

[Smoom77]

loldead

I'm feeling dumb since I can't really add anything to the disscusion...

 

[Prawn]

Sync'd squall > down b

short hopped syncd blizzards can do good in this matchup if you're not dumb with the spacing

Nair combos into itself/lots of other stuff at low percent.

Squall can **** this matchup if you don't overuse it. and running PS grab is broken in this matchup lulz

 

[Smoom77]

I remember once I didn't even PS the fsmash, and I still could shield grab him. We were sooooo confused.

 

[Prawn]

Yeah DK is the best heavyweight vs ics(except for snake, of course), but hes still not THAT good, prolly like 60-40

 

[FrozenHobo]

DK gets ***** by our specials, and our attacks can combo him effectively. some of his stuff is ridiculous, but he needs to mindgame in order to be able to set up any of it.

BF is one of DK's best stages due to the carry -> stage spike aspect. keep in mind that he has SA frames for the start of his carry animation so you won't be able to stop him if he grabs nana near the ledge. with his size and speed he can put up a good fight, but his lack of options against squall, desynced blizzard and even ice blocks hinders him immensely.

60-40 ICs

 

[EverAlert]

Holy **** thread activity.

BF is one of DK's best stages due to the carry -> stage spike aspect.

Doesn't work: by holding up as he walks off the ledge you auto-release. Even if armour frames prevent you from hitting him out of a Nana stage spike directly, you can force her to hold up by jumping above him as he walks off with her (I believe; not sure about her in-grab dynamics). D0N's going to hate me for saying this...

But yes, I agree with 60:40 ICs for the above reasons.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Holy **** thread activity.



Doesn't work: by holding up as he walks off the ledge you auto-release. Even if armour frames prevent you from hitting him out of a Nana stage spike directly, you can force her to hold up by jumping above him as he walks off with her (I believe; not sure about her in-grab dynamics). D0N's going to hate me for saying this...

But yes, I agree with 60:40 ICs for the above reasons.

really... i'll keep that in mind for future matches.

 

[Smasher89]

Lol, and I thought mashing/teching (iof at so high % mashing dont really matter) was the best option, lol if that allways works ang gets DK in a bad position^^

 

[Ripple]

BF is one of DK's best stages due to the carry -> stage spike aspect. keep in mind that he has SA frames for the start of his carry animation so you won't be able to stop him if he grabs nana near the ledge. with his size and speed he can put up a good fight, but his lack of options against squall, desynced blizzard and even ice blocks hinders him immensely.

60-40 ICs

that's actually not true. DK does not have SA on cargo hold, its all heavy armor. which means if he wouldn't get knocked down by an attck then the grab is not broken.

but ICs specials do not **** DK like you make them sound. Ice blocks are not a problem, down b sends them back. blizzard is out ranged by down b. and squall CAN be punished.

just watch my recent games with lain

but yes I agree 60-40

 

[Teh Future]

^don't forget upsmash kills nana at 68% =(

 

[phi1ny3]

So when are ratios going to be updated?
And what does Meep say about the Lucario ratio after what's happened?
I also want to see what the verdict on Peach is.

 

[momochuu]

Not enough posters here to do that, sadly. ._.

 

[Teh Future]

So when are ratios going to be updated?
And what does Meep say about the Lucario ratio after what's happened?
I also want to see what the verdict on Peach is.

you mean after Meep lost to a Lucario because he messed up chaingrabs like 5 times on their last stock?

lol

 

[phi1ny3]

Naw,
He lost to Junebug once when he didn't know how to CG
Zucco beat him like twice when he DID know how to CG Lucario.
I really think that it's near like 55:45 Luca's favor, but I dunno.

btw do you think something like Viridian will happen to Meep again? I felt it was a little unfair for Meep even though it was legal in some way I guess.

 

[Prawn]

gliding under the stage is dumb, everyone *****es about ICs and don't realize the only character that can truly take advantage of it is MK, and if MK is truly the best character in the game why are we allowing them to do even more broken ****?

on topic:

SNES conversation between Lain and Meep while we were smoking,

Lain: Lucario beats ice climbers or at least goes even man!

Meep: No no ICs ****

at least that was the general idea of it,

basically back then I think Meep was right, but I think Lain saw the truer potential of what lucario can do vs ICs, so lucario ICs is prolly like 50-50 MAYBE lucarios SLIGHT advantage? but i dont really have any experience, i mean PatG and I play and our games are usually close, but in no way do I think he wins cause lucario beats ICs.

IMO from the time i've spent playing PatG it's like 50-50

 

[phi1ny3]

That was before Zucco came in.

lucario beats ic lol.

Yea zucco didnt time me out. The entire match up is me grabbing lucario at 0% and him trying to hit me and kill me at 150%.

I give up using ic on lucario =(. I have to rely on grabs the entire time and its stressful.

Ic are the very least are top 5. At least on the highest level of play. Its just unfair how they can win off of one grab some

of the time.

No offense to meep, I really respect what he does for this character (him and Lain of course).
Oh and I don't think the character with a fruit for a name (I don't want You-know-who to come in) v. ICs is like 60:40 her favor lol.

Edit: Oh yeah more corrections, fair doesn't have IASA, just really ridiculously low end lag, and fair is really safe in this MU from what Zucco and others have told me.

 

[Teh Future]

ICs vs Lucario is not in Lucario's favor lol. It's at worst even and probably not even that. The only dumb thing about the matchup is that you don't want to go to smashville because he can camp the platform very well. Other than that I don't even know why this matchup is that annoying to people(besides Lucario being generally annoying) you have to play very careful and near perfect in a lot of matchups more so than this imo (Marth, MK, Snake)