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Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee

Prawn

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Messages
3,031
Currently Re discussing Snake:

The previous snake writeup can be found in the next post.

Heres a quick list I made up for future discussions, if you want to discuss a different character/one of these ones sooner then just say so and I'll see what I can do. Everyone discussion will last about a week give or take, depending on the discussions activity. Please feel free to include matchup numbers, videos, quotes, and whatever else you think could help the discussion. I will compose a writeup at the end of each discussion and post it in this OP.

Order of characters discussed:

Snake
Diddy
Toon Link
Metaknight
ROB
 

momochuu

Smash Legend
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
12,868
NNID
Momochuu
3DS FC
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Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion - Week Twelve: Donkey Kong

Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion​

What not to do in a matchup thread:

  • Show character bias. A.K.A. Stay realistic with the ratios please. This goes for both sides of the matchup being discussed.
  • Post one liners as a "matchup summary". Keep the thread intelligent please.
  • Post "mindgames" as a factor in the matchup. I can't stress that enough. Don't make yourself look stupid by posting something like that.

General Understanding of Matchup Numbers:
  • 70-30 or less- Hard Counter
  • 60-40- Difficult, but winnable if you play the matchup correctly.
  • 55-45- About even. One side of the matchup may have something that makes the matchup slightly in their favor (i.e. a projectile, more range, etc.)
  • 50-50- Dead even

Week One: Snake
30:70​

Discussed on pages 1-3

Solid Snake...

Apparently he's trained in the art of killing children because he has every tool needed to destroy the Ice Climbers. Amazing camping ability (if not the best), long range attacks, lots of power behind those long range attacks, he's good at delivering passive damage, and he can kill quickly. Those are just a few of his good traits. If Snake gets Nana alone, she will probably eat a Snake FSmash which will probably kill her if she's taken even a little damage. It's not pretty at all. Snake Grenades can keep the Ice Climbers at bay and are somewhat hard to deal with if you have Nana struggling behind you. He can lay C4s and mines down giving you even more things on the field to worry about. This is another thing that makes the matchup so bad for the Ice Climbers. He can control the field so well, and there's so much to pay attention to that most Ice Climbers players get confused. These are all the things you'll have to worry about:

  • Nana
  • Snake
  • Yourself
  • The grenades that will be all over the stage
  • C4s and Mines

That's a lot of things to handle during a match. Look out for Snake's FTilt. It's amazing at racking damage if you attempt to get close, and it's pretty safe on block. You can powershield it, but that's easier said than done with Nana's 6 frame shield difference.

Everything's not terrible for the ICs though. Snake's kinda weak from directly under him, and the Ice Climbers have a very good UpAir. We can try to hobble him, but he can just drop a grenade in the middle of that so...x_x; If you don't get a grenade thrown into your short hopped Blizzards, it's actually pretty good against Snake. Chaingrabs are pretty difficult against him and UpSmash won't kill him until a retardedly high percentage if they have good DI. Spiking him from a grab could work if they're not good at teching the stage.

So yeah, Snake. Pretty hard matchup. Not impossible, but really freakin' hard. Be patient and just attack when you can. Keep an extremely close watch on Nana.


Ok, this is what I know.

- Desyncing is NOT good in this matchup. It will only **** you up. However, short hop approaching blizzards spaced REALLY well may have the capacity to block nades being thrown at you.

- Full hop ice block makes snake approach (or at least deters his camping) because they make him shield at awkward times and ****ing up his grenade cooking. Ice blocks also can stop snake from fsmashing your nana once he's separated you both.

- Squall hammer should be used more in this matchup then most others. But you have to realize that:
1) You have to squall the upper part of his body to not explode the grenade
2) Squall is good for moving away from bad situations. And there will be a lot of them.
3) Only squall if you are sure you will hit or shield poke. And don't just try and run around trying to squall him like an idiot.

- Squalling onto the stage isn't the smartest idea. Instead use upb more. However as FW said, you're now on the edge. This is where squall comes into play. If you are on smashville edge, wait for the moving platform and squall onto it. On Battlefield, Squall from the ledge to the top platform. On Yoshi's, squall to the middle platform as far from snake as possible. For the other stages, and in instances on every stage, you're going to just have to time the squall and try and pass through him. Simply standing up on the ledge I do a lot now.

- Do Hylian's Patented Snake-Killing-Whilst-Avoiding-Grenades CG(tm). When you grab them, immediately dthrow again into nana grabbing. Then immediately run past snake and pivot grab with Popo. You have to run a little farther then you think because IC pivot grab range is actually pretty sexy.

- When below snake, the Uairs are key. If the try to airdodge, fall with them and uair them out of it.

- The most likely way you're going to grab a good snake player is by pivot grabbing him when he's landing. It covers him simply falling, airdodgding, or bairing. If they start b-sticking grenades, this leaves them in a vulnerable position. I'm not sure if anyone's tried this yet but if they do that and you grab them, wait JUST the right time to cook the nade and then uthrow them. If they airdodge to avoid the grenade it's a free Belay. Probably very difficult to pull of though.

- Snake can't pull nades if you hobble them the right way.

- Never roll into or behind a snake player.

- Don't challenge nair. You have nothing to beat it with.

- Your dair beats his usmash explodey thing. However in some situations you're just going to want to squall away. **EXTREMELY USEFUL**

- The point of juggling him in the air is to uair him a bunch to get him to airdodge into the ground so you can grab him.

- If you grab snake, KILL HIM. If you let Snake out at 180% he's still dangerous to IC's.

There will always be more to learn for at least a while.


Week Two: Olimar​
60:40

Discussed on pages 3-5

Olimar is a campy player's dream come true. Long range, an annoying projectile, and a stupidly good grab range. Normally these would be good qualities against the Ice Climbers, but almost everything Olimar can normally do is stopped by Desynched Blizzards. The matchup isn't as simple as that though, as you can see from the ratio.

Despite Blizzard being very good in this matchup, Olimar still has attacks that can go through it that you should be aware of. Some of his pikmin grabs can actually grab you out of Blizzard. His grab range is that good. He can just jump over you and attack you, which is something that a lot of characters can do. His Side B (Pikmin Throw) doesn't do much to Blizzard and the tossed Pikmin just bounce off of it. It's still an annoying attack that should be looked out for.

Olimar has some pretty good smashes that can put you in bad situations or outright kill you if you're at the right percent. His FSmash and DSmash are pretty good, but not as good as his UpSmash. The Purple Pikmin UpSmash has amazing power and should always be something you look out for.

Ice Climbers can UpAir him a few times if he tries platform camping, which might make him think twice about doing it. Don't use Squall Hammer so much because you can get hit out of it and grabbed out of it very easily. Ice Blocks are...okay in this matchup. Nothing spectacular. They're usually used to make the opponent approach you, but Olimar almost never has to approach and his camping is better than the Ice Climbers'. Once you grab Olilmar you should not mess up the chaingrab. It's extremely easy to chaingrab him and he dies quickly to UpSmash.

Short summary: Play smart, watch him closely, use lots of Blizzard, and don't mess up your grabs.

Olimar:

~60:40

- He can totally grab you through blizzard. Why does no one know this?

- Olimar has no vertical attacks. This means you airdodge in towards him and grab. If he starts pivot grabbing, just start squalling into him. When they land they can land with a nair so make sure to shield the whole thing and they are screwed.

- Nair kills all pikmin on you.

- There is a hobble you can do that gimps Oli's at low percents (bthrow hobble to dtilt).

- Ice block sucks in this matchup.

- When you cg olimar it's like fireworks gong off.
Also, as for uair since it's been brought up a few times, our uair will go through anything you have. I don't think any of the Ice Climbers' moves will out prioritize it.

Ice Climbers' main approach is going to be Desynced blizzard, as not much else will be reliable enough to not get grabbed. And popo getting grabbed > Back throw is easily 30+ damage to nana. After Popo is back thrown, Nana will run straight into Olimar charging a down smash, and continue to be comboed afterwards.

Basically Olimar is never going to approach... ever. Neither character really has a safe approach that won't get them grabbed other than your Desynced Blizzard. Squall Hammer isn't a safe approach, as most of our fsmashes (3/5 colors) will go through it, as will our grab. Also a shielded Squall Hammer (in the air or not) can be followed with an up/down smash.

About blue or yellows or whatever being the only ones to go through blizzard... It's often thought that blues and whites have more range than yellows and reds but they don't. Red/Yellow/Blue/White all have the same grab range. Also I'm pretty sure a pivot grab will just about always go through a desynced blizzard.

I'm unsure of what the matchup is, but I feel it's around even.

Also, I liked the fireworks comment lain :laugh:


Week Three: Zelda​
45: 55​

Discussed on Pages 6-13

Zelda is a character with powerful, but fairly slow attacks. The hitboxes to most of her moves are very big, but have a lot of ending lag to them. The Ice Climbers get easily seperated by these attacks which is why many Ice Climbers players have a hard time with the matchup. They are still very capable of winning the matchup, it just requires more patience and more emphasis on punishing her mistakes.

Against Ice Climbers, most Zeldas will use a lot of smash attacks and Din's fire. Her smashes are hard to DI out of with just one character, but it's even worse when you're controlling two. D-Smash is a pretty quick attack and will mostly be used as a "GTFO attack" if she's being pressured. It also sends you at a bad trajectory if she hits you in the right spot. Her Up-smash is multi-hit and has pretty good knockback. At earlier percentages most Zeldas will use this attack twice to juggle you. It's annoying. Up-smash can be DI'd but if's very difficult. F-Smash is like a horizontal version of Up-Smash. You can't link it, but the properties are somewhat similar. Pretty good knockback, hard to DI, and multi-hit. If this move hits your shield you'll most likely be pushed too far back to punish her for it. 99% of the time if you try to rush in after a Zelda Forward Smashes, the Down Smash is coming right after that. Din's is good against recovering Ice Climbers because Nana can be late in airdodging at times. If Nana is separated in the air, Zelda's UpAir is quite devastating.

Ice Climbers have to stay together in this matchup. Nana isn't smart enough to...not get hit so Zelda will have a field day with her. Blizzards can be punished by Nayru's Love which will probably split the ICs up. It's best to not even Desynch Blizzard just because of Nayru's Love. Squall gets Forward Smashed so you have to be careful when using it. Ice Blocks are okay, but don't camp them for long periods of time because she can just use Din's Fire. Zelda will have a hard time not getting juggled with Up-air because of her slow airdodge and fall speed. If she fast falls and airdodges, just fast fall with her and Up-air. Being under Zelda in the air is ideal. Chaingrabbing Zelda has strange timing, but Back Throw hobbling works well.

To win versus Zelda, playing smart is necessary. Wait until she uses a move at a bad time and try to punish it. Stay together, and keep her in the air.


Personally I tihnk the thing thats going to make this matchup go one way or the other is how easily can Zelda seperate them. Off the top of my head I can thing that NLove, successful LK, and nair can easily seperate them, and her fsmash, dsmash, and Dins to an extent.

CGing her will be difficult, because we are not going to let you guys in grab range since Zelda has some quick GTFO moves like dsmash and NL. Since she's so light and floaty, you guys also might have to work the timing out for CGing too.
Ice blocks are slower than din's iirc... even when desynched and sent alternately. I treat it much like I treat waddle dees for some odd reason, just maintain a good position and send din's to the ground. It can trade a lot with ice blocks, but I find it to be the better part of the trade.

Just be extremely careful of dtilt - if one doesn't trip, the other often does, which messes up the SDI to get out of it, especially for Nana. I also find her the easiest character in the game to get any kind of killer aerial on >.> I blame her AI haha! Or Popo's AI for those Nana enthusiasts out there who main her :)
From the zelda's ive played, her best route to winning this matchup for them is if she camps (I hate to say this since Im sure theres some zelda pro out there that contradicts this, but most zeldas will camp). If she tries to be aggressive she generally gets grabbed and punished in the air too easy. Camping, Zelda can control 75% of the stage. At the far end she most definitely outcamps ICs. You can maybe trade hits with ice blocks and dins, but its not even close to worth it. And she can throw dins into the ground to make sure it explodes even if she does get hit with an ice block. Im not even sure if its possible to power shield with both ICs, it pushes you back and thats no good because it eats your shield and you need to approach.

Because of din spam its tempting to try to run in and stay in her face and punish her long lasting moves, but...up close isnt much better. Her smashes and specials last forever, and her dsmash comes out quick so trying to punish them if shielded just doesn't work. Powershielding the attacks to a grab only works if you catch it at the beginning and are close enough, otherwise the shieldlag and long hitboxes will screw you if you try to release your shield or punish. Its better to just be patient if an attack hits your shield as tempting as her laggy moves might be.

The problem for Zelda is that she gets owned in that 25% of the stage she doesnt control so long as your patient and dont run into junk, and unfortunately for her it's an easy position for the IC's to take against a campy zelda. If you stand close to her but just outside the range of her smashes she really can't do anything to you. If she dins she gets grabbed. Basically anything else she does from there she can be tilted, blizzarded or grabbed; while she has a very hard time punishing you. Up close she cant really nyru your blizzard unless it hits the tail end of her attack, otherwise itll knock you out of the blizzard animation and shes stuck finishing nyrus with enough time for a grab. She might try to retreat, but eventually will run out of stage. And if she tries to go above or through you can punish her in the air with your better aerials and it puts her at risk of being grabbed.

yeah <_< I typed more then I thought I would. But I'd say IC's have a clear advantage as long as you dont run into stuff, basically what fly said.
Some observations :)

It's a free grab for the ICs if Zelda whiffs usmash or dsmash. As fast as they are they both have loads of ending lag. Also for some reason, ICs can sometimes get out of usmash when hit aerially, so they can probably SDI out of it easier than other characters.

Fsmash is tougher to deal with since it has good range and low cool down lag...which makes it very safe and very spammable. A lot of ICs I've fought make the mistake of trying to punish a shielded fsmash (especially by grabbing) but it's generally not a good idea, though it might be plausible out of a spotdodge. A ton of Zelda's moves have ridiculous cooldown at the end, but she really only needs fsmash to cause some trouble.

You can have some fun if you manage to get her airborne, she really can't do anything to defend herself from underneath so she's good uair fodder. Although she has decent horizontal aerial speed so you might have to do some chasing.

I don't think ICs really have anything that will force Zelda to approach, so that's definitely a plus for her and Din's will probably be more of an annoyance for the ICs than other characters.
Chok I disagree... I think zelda does okay against the ICs. I think it's a pretty even fight - Fsmash, Jab and Dtilt are unpunishable on their shield. Jab and dtilt are unpunishable on spotdodge, as is Fsmash if you're comfortable with charging. Nana has problems with the dtilt lock, and Din's/Ice Blocks trade, which favours din's.

She isn't approaching at all in this matchup, and Nana dies in the 70s, less so with Uair. It's just that Nana is the easiest character in the game to land any sort of power aerial on because she sort of drift or floats everytime she gets separated and put in the air - which is a perfect setup from any dash attack, usmash, ftilt, fsmash, din's.

Blizzards barely outrange her, but she can turnaround shield and Bair OoS those consistently.

There's just no reason for her to use moves that will make her punishable, like Dsmash, Nayru's and Usmash when she can poke safely at a distance and camp from afar. If she is using those moves then it's her player's fault for putting her at risk of grabbing.

I think this match can easily sway, I'd call it even. But I don't think this matchup happens at a high enough level for anything to be really be justified yet. Aside from Ryoko, DM, NL as far as tourney matches are concerned I wouldn't call anyone else a reeeeally good zelda player =p Lessthanthree
LOVE
I thought you only used sheik? >.<

Week Three: Sheik
70:30

Discussed on Pages 7-13

The Ice Climbers are probably Sheik's worst matchup. Most of her tools are shut down by them.

  • F-Tilt lock isn't as effective because there are two of them. If she doesn't get both of them in the lock, she's open to get grabbed.
  • Needle camping isn't as effective because Ice Blocks absorb most projectiles in the game. Needles are no exception. From long ranges, Ice Blocks are more effective.
  • She doesn't have many reliable attacks that separate them. This is a really strong factor in determining how well a character does versus the Ice Climbers.
  • She has a hard time KO'ing in ways that aren't gimping.
  • Popo alone can chaingrab her to 60% because of her fall speed and other factors.

The Ice Climbers on the other hand, don't have to work as hard as her to win in the matchup.

  • The Ice Climbers win up close because most of Sheik's attacks are shield-grab bait.
  • This is another matchup where UpAir is extremely useful. Sheik doesn't have many options when someone is directly under her.
  • They don't have to work very hard for getting grabs because of how unsafe many of Sheik's moves are on block.

It's a massacre of the worst kind. Most Sheik mains will probably switch to Zelda to fight the Ice Climbers. There's not much else to say about this matchup.




Week 4: Diddy Kong
45:55?

Discussed on pages 13-15

*Write-up soon*


Week Five: Metaknight
40 : 60​

The Ice Climbers vs. Metaknight matchup has been discussed for a long time and has slowly evolved. In the early days of Brawl, Ice Climbers vs. MK was a complete massacre and people considered MK to be the ICs' worst matchup. He's fast, has a lot of priority, can separate them, and can gimp Nana so easily anyone can do it. However, as time went on the Ice Climbers gained a few tools that can shut down a lot of things Metaknight can do to other characters.

Blizzard walls stop the tornado and some of MK's more aggressive approaches completely, and he can be pivot grabbed out of it. UpAir has a lot of priority and can hit MK for quick, sudden damage if he stays under them while vulnerable. There's also the chaingrab. The fact that Metaknight can't make too many mistakes is what makes this matchup not as hard as it used to be.

Metaknight played a very aggressive game against Ice Climbers before, but now playing like that means suicide. Most Metaknights will be flying overhead, Down Air camping and tornado'ing away to a platform when their jumps run out. If this doesn't work for them, they might submit to ledge camping. Both are silly, but can be overcome by playing carefully and capitalizing on their mistakes.

If a Metaknight is Down Air camping, you can either wait out a Down Air and punish it with an Up Air (this is risky because of MK's small ending lag on a lot of moves), or you can wait until they use all of their jumps and wait until they use Tornado if they do use it. If they do it, punish accordingly. If the Metaknight is Up Air'ing on the ledge, Blizzard can still hit him but it's best to just stay away from the ledge.

Metaknight's ability to separate the Ice Climbers is unparalleled. Not getting hit with some of his attacks like Down Smash is somewhat difficult because of the 6 frame difference in the ICs' shields. If Nana is offstage, she is likely not coming back. Pretty much one hit from DAir, NAir, or FAir is enough to gimp Nana if she is offstage. If you're quick enough, you can hit MK to disrupt this, but if he's too far offstage there's nothing you can do but watch...

Metaknight cannot afford to make a mistake, and if he does you have to make it top priority to punish it. Most of the time in this matchup, you will be doing Blizzard/UpAir walls and using them to get through MK's powerful attacks. You can't afford to make a mistake either because Nana will most likely die because of that mistake.

Your most used attacks in this matchup will be:

  • UpAir
  • Blizzard
  • Up Smash can be used to punish the glide from Shuttle Loop
  • Forward Smash is fairly quick and powerful. It can KO MK at about 90% at times if you hit him with the tip of the hammer.

That's pretty much all of the attacks that are most effective against Metaknight. >_> Against Metaknight you HAVE to punish him or he will make quick work of you.

Meep's write-up on ICs vs. MK:

Okaay where do i start.....

Depending on the type of mk you fight it they either camp you to hell, know how to fight you properly, or just suck badly and run into mistakes. If they camp you to hell be prepared to chase them down the entire game and keeping track of the timer and percent/stock.

Camping mk: You want to time your uairs and beat their dairs. If they space you horizontally with dairs. You can do nairs or bairs after their dairs are done. YOu wanna space really well or else they will just do a tornado on you. If they tornado run away and shield or if you react fast enough and predict it pivot grab them. Its pretty much a game of running in and out and wearing the mk out. I start using desynchs to bait them into doing stuff. Ice block chaser and blizzard so they jump. Sometimes you can even combo them into that and an usmash for a kill.

Mks that know the match up: They will focus more on trying to seperate nana and popo and do sneaky stuff. If they know the match up well. Dont bother saving nana if shes way the hell out there. You will have to rely more on mindgames and your solo climber. just remember if they are under 50% u can dthrow cg them to the ledge and when you die you get a garenteed infinite where they cant struggle out. Some things to keep in mind are a lot of times they will dash grab you because you tend to shield a lot. If your fast and predict this always grab them b4 they grab you. They will feel dumb and you get a free infinite. Sometimes if u time the grab well enough u can use armor frames and beat their dash attack.

Mks they dont know what they are doing: These are fun lol. THese are the mks that spam short hop fairs and dtilt ftilts. If they fair you and space it badly remember you can shield and dash grab them for an infinite. And its pretty self explanatory to shield the entire ftilt and grab and grab them if they space dtilt poorly.

Remember to always use your shield the very last moment of everything because you need the full shield to block tornado (tilt your shield up). This match up is all about having really fast reflexes and reacting to all of mks attacks. And always run away from tornado if u see it coming or pivot grab it. Most of the time they will go after u a little and leave.

At low percents you want to dthrow as fast as you can and have nana regrab dthrow/fthrow and start your dthrow/bthrow infinite. Dont start bthrow at low percent as you have to wait a half a second to start it (good players will struggle out). When they are 60% or higher you can do bthrow at the start because they will be high enough percent to not get out.

What ive found lately is to play like wario in this match up. IC have a decent air dodge and they can avoid a lot of attacks just airdodging everywhere. Like mks tend to spam dsmash a crap load when ur next to them. A well placed short hop airdodge behind them or next to them can land you a free grab.

Also learn to buffer bthrow-dthrow cg. Learning this can allow you to start cging them on platforms consistently. Most mks tend to feel safe landing on platforms, but if you land a grab on the platform then they wont feel safe anywhere.

Just remember if you time ur grabs a lot of times they will out beat mks attacks because of armor frames. Its hard for me to tell what situations you can do this, but it is possible.

I dunno what else to add XD, but yea i hope this helps everyone else out there. Just give mk a really hard time when fighting you and ull usually come out on top. I know when i started ic and was learning them it felt like a struggle to land infinites and grabs, but if you play properly and make them feel uncomfortable the entire game then more than likely people choke easier. This not only applys to mk but pretty much anyone u fight ic with.

Just remember while mk is a character that has all the options to win we have the ability to limit options to win. Its pretty much a double edge sword fighting mk because he still has the tools to win, but hes pretty much limited to spamming dair and out playing you. Hope this helps someone because its starting to sound like nonsense and its really late XD.


Discussed on pages 15-20


Week Six: Wario
40 : 60​


Week Seven: Marth
55 : 45​

Marth vs. ICs is pretty much both sides trying their best to not screw up. If Marth screws up, he dies to a grab. If the Ice Climbers mess up, Marth's FAir can basically carry her offstage or make coming back onstage very difficult. He's pretty good at keeping them at bay, which may give some Ice Climbers players trouble.

Marth's better tools in the matchup are Forward Air and Down Tilt. Look out for these moves. Normally, Dancing Blade is a great attack versus many characters, but very few characters can risk hitting the Ice Climbers' shield when they're on the ground. Forward Air is great because:

  • It trades hits with Blizzard, but Forward Air does much more damage. It'll hit the ICs out of Blizzard and it won't finish.
  • You can hit the Ice Climbers out of Squall Hammer with it. Making recovery/approaching pretty difficult.
  • It's just a good spacing attack in general and fairly safe.

If you're playing as the ICs and a Marth whiffs a Forward Air, punish it. You can actually run under him and pivot grab him sometimes when they're SHFA'ing.

Things to look out for with Down Tilt:

  • This attack also hit the ICs out of Squall Hammer if they use it grounded.
  • Beats Ice Block camping by hitting them (The Ice Blocks) back.
  • Pretty long range, so it's pretty difficult to attempt to rush down a Marth on the ground.

This matchup is very player dependent. It can go either way depending on how you play it.

In my experience...

This matchup is 100% spacing. If you **** up you'll take a lot of damage and Nana will probably die. If the Marth ****s up he gets chaingrabbed. It's all about spacing while trying to pressure/predict and create openings.

Discussed on pages 25-28



Week Eight: Lucario
? : ?​

Okay, here's the deal:
1: Iceblock forces approach- This helps a lot in the MU. When you have both climbers, one will eat AS, the other will get lucario. Simple enough. The ability of this to work beyond forcing an approach is limited though if lucario takes the fight to the air.
2: Spaced dair is virtually unpunishable- This is normally a hard issue against a char with good grab range like D3, but ICs are terrible dealing with dair, it separates them in opposite directions in knockback, it outranges and outspeeds uair/utilt, and when on a platformed stage, is going to be a bugger to deal with, since it has enough range to connect from an immediate jump-> dair. Shield pressure of this move against ICs and the double hitbox of this move is crazy safe.
3: Ground moves: Good lucarios know that in this MU, they'll have to use them wisely. If fsmash somehow gets PS'd by both climbers without being properly spaced/strutterstepped, it's the lucario's fault completely. This move is pretty safe on block vs. ICs + has IASA frames, so it isn't punishable really at the end unless something outranges it outright (blizzard does this, though not very useful). ftilt is pretty much the same story, two hitboxes, FASTER than fsmash, nearly safer on block, and punishes the CPU climber unless you shield in anticipation, in which PS alone getting the grab is relinquished. Dair and ftilt alone are really, really good IC separators.
Offstage game: Lucario gimps solo IC really easily, and if there's an attempt to rescue offstage, lucario has the advantage. Dair makes this a strong reality, in conjunction with fair.
Nair autocancels, has a lingering hitbox, and has range + comes out of fair's IASA frames, making his landing much easier. Once again though, lucario + platforms = better chance at this MU.
1/2 gimp is nearly just as bad for IC as lucario getting infinited, safest MU for lucario to face, sopo gets outcamped (AS fires faster), out-ranged, out sped (ICs are probably the highest on the tier list that are overall slow framewise where it counts). Plus Lucario moves are safe on block, and solo dthrow CG hardly gives any gain.
Stages with platforms give lucario a ton of safety. uair is ICs most reliable reply to aerial harassment, and is once again, outranged and is slower.
If and when Lucario gets CG'd, if lucario can get a gimp (once again, some really good separator tools), he's back in.
Another thing, lucario gets killability vs. midweights as early as in the 100% range. Iirc, ICs are on the light side, and being behind one stock makes lucario more killworthy than what people make him out to be (for those who don't know, he gets a buff for when he's behind a stock), which gives him a decent 65% or so to have some killpower against ICs assuming they're in the 80% range or so.
Lucario has safe options, platform superiority, and good separating/gimp capability, plus longer ranged, lingering hitboxes make for safer moves on shield + are icky against Nana. I don't see how this is IC favor, I'm sorry, let alone 60:40.
Another note: Fair will not be used close to the ground, it has landing lag, I'm getting implications that people haven't seen lucario zone effectively once within SH distance. In a very crude sense of the MU, it's like Lucario has traded a little less range and speed for more safeness on block.
Blizzard is going to help a bit, as are Ice blocks, and pivot grab.
Edit: I can now see it possibly being in ICs favor. I kind of get where Meep is going with this, and with the neutrals on hand, I'd say it's 50:50. The fact that lucario is hard to grab is negated a bit by the fact that he takes a long time to kill. I also think that whoever gets the first stock/if lucario gimps one/if ICs infinite (or miss) determines a whoooole ton of who wins the MU. Meep has been approaching this correctly, minus the pluses of lucario's game.
fight him regularly from 0-50%. Then only focus on grabbing at that percentage using blizzard/ice block setups and pray u dont mess up cging him.... Lucario is the ultimate test on ice climber skill imo because he can either be one of the easier or harder match-ups for ic. It all comes down to landing an infinite and not fuking up. Lucario at low percents should never kill you until ur 150%. This match up is all about paying attention to percentages and using his aura boost to your advantage and not against you (cg him at low percents).

I know its predictable to wait for grabs against lucario, but its the only solution. Most of his aerials can be shield or pivot grabbed if timed correctly (yea i always say pivot grab everything, but it really is THAT effective.)

Imo u should practice cging 3 chars in brawl which are mk/snake/lucario. It gives u a range from light, heavy, and mid. Lucario is one of those characters YOU HAVE TO practice cging otherwise ur making it harder for urself for this specific match up.

I may have lost to azen's lucario last time we played, but its only because i messed up cging which many ic mains will feel if they lose to lucario mains. If he ever enters a tourney again im not losing to it. >_>

60:40 ic if your prepared for the match up.
40:60 ic if your unprepared for the match up.

Week Nine: Sonic the Hedgehog
? : ?​

I play with both Sonic and ICs (Played this match too on both sides) so I can help a bit here.

Your gonna wanna try to wall the crap out of Sonic. DO NOT attack him, unless you know your gonna put pressure on him. As you know, he's extremely good at punishing. Homing attack is now unpredictable, especially when your separated since it could hit either Nana or Popo (Doesn't mean Sonic is gonna spam it).

In a nutshell, don't get baited into doing moves that leave you vulnerable. Desynched anything helps alot and keeps you safe. Now the problem ICs will face is:

- Sonic is one of the harder characters to grab due to that speed of his. So forget about focusing on grabs, you'll be killing him the old fashioned way most of the time. Only go for grabs when you pin him down and he doesn't have much room to move.

- On the note of Spin Dash, it has invincibility frames at the start of his Side B. The down B one is faster than the Side B one and will be used as a punishing tool most of the time. If you get hit, Popo might escape (Not likely) but Nana will feel the full force of the attack and follow up most of the time. Study up on his spins, it's a bit much to post all that stuff here. On the side note, his spin dash roll from his Side B is invincible if he starts it from a slope(Ex: edge's of Yoshi's Island- Brawl version).

- NEVER GET SEPARATED!!!! He WILL keep you two apart for a long time for obvious reasons.

- Try to focus on a ground game more, Sonic can take advantage of you more in the air. Be extremely careful when recovering, 9/10 times one of you (Worst case scenario none of you) will make it back. He can also drop springs while your recovering.

This match is just something you need more experience in to do well. He has alot of tricks to contend with ICs, if he gets predictable, you already won. Most Sonic's will play a hit and run game on ICs since they don't want to get their stock *****. It's also important that you do not lose Nana. If you do, Sonic can either:

A) Finish you off quickly with little fuss from you.

B) Be a jerk and run away (NEVER fun when your by yourself)

So what about stages? Well, FD is good as usual (Let's be honest, it's getting banned if you're a IC main) so try these:

- Battlefield is great against Sonic. Stay under the platforms and you shoundn't have to worry about him zooming over your head. It's also good Homing Attack repellant :D. It's small size also strenthens your grab game against him.

- Smashville is okay too. Helps with your recovery and your projectile game is useful here. Sonic's will try to control the platform so you'll have to deal with that. Once again, a good stage against him.

- Pokemon Stadium 1 is great too. Some transformations like the rock one limits Sonic's movement. If anything, pick this one.

- Castle Siege is okay, the first part is very small and we all know what that means. Second part is grounded, but it is large so it isn't so good here. 3rd part is like FD but tilts around, it's ok. I would pick this against Sonic if I can't think of anything else, you'll only have to be careful of the 2nd transformation since it gives Sonic the freedom to run around the place.

Any other stage isn't so good against Sonic. He pretty much outshines ICs on the rest of the stages.

Overall I would call this even, the match could switch very easily depending on the stage. Sonic has much more stage options than ICs and one mistake from either side could end very poorly for said player. It's probably 55:45 ICs though but I haven't really seen anything to warrant that or anything higher than that yet (Same goes for Sonic, but it looks like it can go to 55:45 Sonic due to said things above).



Week Ten: Princess Peach
? : ?​


Week Eleven: King Dedede
? : ?​
 

momochuu

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Matchup Schedule:

Olimar
Zelda
Diddy Kong <--- Rediscuss
Metaknight
Lucario
Pikachu
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Marth
Mr. Game and Watch
Peach <--- Rediscuss.
Zero Suit Samus
Wolf
Sonic
Toon Link
Wario
Sheik
Samus
Pokemon Trainer
R.O.B.
Pit
Ness
Luigi
Jigglypuff
Lucas
King Dedede
Ike
Captain Falcon
Bowser
Ganondorf
Fox
Falco
Link
Yoshi

 

Prawn

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Snake is easily Ice Climbers hardest matchup at a top-level. Many of Snake's moves will desync you, and getting a grab off(and completing it without some sort of explosion taking place)can be difficult if the Snake knows what hes doing.

That being said, I completely think this matchup is winnable. For easy damage/a possible KO(if you're not confident in your infinites) I suggest chaingrabbing to the edge and spiking/releasing, if the other player panics you may be able to get a cypher grab off which will either doom the ******* to a minus one stock OR in the case of a good player add a hefty sum of damage at his own hand(by way of C4).

Ftilt is the climbers worst enemy, a good desyncing tool at times with good GREAT range and damage to boot. Abuse blizzards/blizzard desyncs/ice blocks to maintain a stable ranged game.

Another advantage Snake has in my opinion is his edgeguarding potential. Once off the side a barrage of mortars, C4, possibly Nikitas, and grenades are sure to be headed your way. Getting back on at certain angles is going to be super difficult, not to mention the ICs fairly predictable/gimpable recovery. You need to learn to read your opponent and make due with what you have, which is easier said then done.

If you're down to one climber, the best advice I can say is blizzard camp. Dthrow CG only works for a short period, you're basically a sitting duck to a good snake. If you have the opportunity, Dthrow CG to the side and air release off the stage, hopefully you'll be able to do damage/possibly cypher grab gimp with the edgeguard.

Our best weapons are:

-CGs
-Uairs
-Blizzards

Use them like a pimp uses a hoe.

Ideally I think FD would be the best choice here, but from experience I can say a lot of Snakes aren't going to let you have that gift. Most likely first round you'll end up on Smashville or Yoshi's Island(I assume you all know to strike BF and Lylat)depending on the other players preference. On smashville WATCH FOR THE MOVING PLATFORM C4. I've been constantly desync'd and set up for an easy Nana kill by this too many times.

As for counterpicking, FD/Smashville is ideal I'd say, and if you win Game 1 switch to a secondary or prepare for a game 3.

____

I should add I'm not THAT knowledgeable about this matchup and this is off the top of my head but yeah.

EDIT: Ask Meep about this matchup, I know he is convinced it's winnable and has studied it.

Oh by the way, I agree, 70:30.
 

Hylian

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Learn my CG to get away from nades. It helps a LOT.

Dthrow --> Dthrow --> Running pivot grab.

This will keep both climbers safe from the explosion of a nade if you grab him while he's holding it.
 
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Ftilt is the climbers worst enemy, a good desyncing tool at times with good GREAT range and damage to boot. Abuse blizzards/blizzard desyncs/ice blocks to maintain a stable ranged game.
Be careful about using the Blizzard. Blizzard is more easily punishable by Snake than Ice Blocks are. Blizzard will put you in a laggy attack and a long hitbox. This is perfect for Snake to throw a grenade into and blow you up. So if you plan on using blizzard you have to make sure it pretty much lands in his face. Or there isn't a grenade in his hand already. If you simply use it to wall, you'll be punished for it.
 

Diddyknight

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I found that not doing Squall in this matchup is really useful. Desync'd Blizzard tends to stop nades if its uncooked but, if its cooked, Blizzard is such a bad idea >.<

Juggling him in the air is a fun lil game to play with him though. If you space IC aeriels correctly when Snake is holding a nade, it wont explode.

Multi-hit moves are a no-no unless you can only aim for his head using Squall or Blizzard. Since Nades doesnt seem to explode

Small facts for the matchup i know of >_>
 

r3d d09

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I find if they're not cooked nades when being tossed at you, it's an excellent mind game. By using them or i kinda learned to be able to grab nade. grab player. shield to where it doesn't harm you but it harms snake, then continue from there.
After awhile, he will change his game to cook them, by then I de sync ice block him and try and make him stall.
Idk, I'm just giving my input even though i'm a mediocre IC player xD
 

swordgard

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Your best bet vs snake to get grabs is that once he is in the air to punish his landing with a pivot grab.

Contrarely to what most people think, snakes best weapons vs ice climbers isnt his tilts, but his back throw coupled with fsmash. One well placed back throw to fsmash will kill nana leaving you with a bad sopo.

Imo this matchup is 6.5-3.5 if not 6-4.


I really dont feel like doing a huge wall of text today >.< Sorryz


Either way i think this is a great initiative from the ics boards.
 

momochuu

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I don't think my matchup summary in the OP is adequate. Someone post good **** so I can add it to the OP. *Looks at Bnzaaa*
 

Attila_

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non-snake mains always neglect snake's true edgeguarding beastiness. nair/ffbair off the edge will not be used often, but will pwn most who arent either expecting it or are trapped under it. nair will defs beat squall btw. blow up mines as soon as they are planted, cause otherwise nana will probably run right into them. actually there is a glitch (ive only seen it on yoshi's island) where if a mine is planted in the middle of the stage (under the platform) and nana happens to go on that platform, she will not move until the mine is destroyed. she ignores you completely and eats fsmashes.

and id advise all to ban norfair, cause snake will easily kick your *** there. its a lost cause.
 

Smasher89

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Something in the matchup that I feel should be a main concern to discuss is how to turn the granades against him. Some strategies with that can probably sometime stop the snakeplayer from picking up a nade and our grabs gets more effective.


I´m not sure but maybe IC's have a way around granadestripping, what if popo drops the nade and Nana emidiatly(wrong spelling?) picks it up and throws it at snake...
 

r3d d09

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Something in the matchup that I feel should be a main concern to discuss is how to turn the granades against him. Some strategies with that can probably sometime stop the snakeplayer from picking up a nade and our grabs gets more effective.


I´m not sure but maybe IC's have a way around granadestripping, what if popo drops the nade and Nana emidiatly(wrong spelling?) picks it up and throws it at snake...
This is what i was thinking. I'm a partial snake alt. and if you know nades. there is a lot of stuff you can do with them.
once snake throws them you can pick up and:
1. bounce them. down c stick *bounces off ground into the air*
2.throw back *obvious*
3. pick up both and throw them back *serious business ;)*
4. Do my tactic listed in an above post.
5. i don't know if this works, but snake can throw one nade, pull another out and shield drop it causing the first nade to lose it's momentum.
if this works for us for IC's. we can grab both nades. Smash throw one at snake. shield drop 2nd nade to cause first nade to stop near him. then spam A or something to throw the 2nd nade back at him.
I know it's fancy... but that's how we IC's roll. lol
a lot to do in 5 seconds, but i believe it's possible. ^.^
 

Teh Future

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In my expierence, which is not that much, 60-40 matchup.

Snake has the tools to destroy ICs, but ICs have some good tools of thier own. We all know what snake can do, but everyone seems to be neglecting Ice blocks. Obviously snake outcamps you, but Ice blocks can be helpful to:

-blow up grenades that are on the ground/platforms

-blow up mines

-stop snake fsmash before it hits nana.

Everytime someone gets nana bthrow'd by snake I see them run forward and try to hit snake or whatever, but I think if you just sit outside tilt range and wait for snake to do something I think he'll have a harder time fsmashing nana.

recovering above snake is generally a bad idea with upsmash/grenades/uptilt, so when recoverying you will probably end up using their upB more than in most matchups, especially because snake doesn't have the easiest time hitting popo out of it. A problem with this is you're now stuck on the ledge against snake... On smashville you can camp until the platform moves above you(?) but on other stages just time in between grenades/upsmash I guess.

The only problem I ever have against snake is when they camp on platforms with grenades/ect. So if anyone really has any tips against that it would be helpful
 

Attila_

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This is what i was thinking. I'm a partial snake alt. and if you know nades. there is a lot of stuff you can do with them.
once snake throws them you can pick up and:
1. bounce them. down c stick *bounces off ground into the air*
2.throw back *obvious*
3. pick up both and throw them back *serious business ;)*
4. Do my tactic listed in an above post.
5. i don't know if this works, but snake can throw one nade, pull another out and shield drop it causing the first nade to lose it's momentum.
if this works for us for IC's. we can grab both nades. Smash throw one at snake. shield drop 2nd nade to cause first nade to stop near him. then spam A or something to throw the 2nd nade back at him.
I know it's fancy... but that's how we IC's roll. lol
a lot to do in 5 seconds, but i believe it's possible. ^.^
as a snake main ill tell you that only snake can strip grenades. he can also make you throw them a certain way if he's awesome. the best way to counter a grenade is to power shield it, jump and glide throw it back at him. it only gives him a few frames to time the strip, which makes things for him extremely difficult, espc cause he's not really given time to work out what's going on.

try and mix it up. hold it for a bit before throwing (provided he can't strip it), or let nana air catch it and then throw. mindgames are what snake is all about, so you gotta play them better than him.
 

r3d d09

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something i just noticed as i was practicing CG's on snake. when i get to the ledge I Fthrow footstool him, and then he instantly cyphers up. then i figured out this is perfect for a short hop to fair.
the reason i footstool is because he's too low of percent to try and nana fair him at the edge, and you end up spiking him anyways.
Can i get some input from a snake if they would instantly cypher, another thing is if they do survive the fair. they will have to c4 recover causing them more damage and also setting up for another fair.
input please?
 

meepxzero

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The only problem I ever have against snake is when they camp on platforms with grenades/ect. So if anyone really has any tips against that it would be helpful
Throw ice blocks at them while they are on the platform. It makes their nades explode on them. You can also shield poke but makes sure you dont hit the nade, but the ice block thing is safer.
 

momochuu

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Red Dog, I dunno about that. =S Sounds situational and stuff.

Are we done with this character orrrr...?
 

Jupz

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Also note that if you're holding a grenade and snake shield drops his, your grenade will fall out of your hand.
 

Attila_

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something i just noticed as i was practicing CG's on snake. when i get to the ledge I Fthrow footstool him, and then he instantly cyphers up. then i figured out this is perfect for a short hop to fair.
the reason i footstool is because he's too low of percent to try and nana fair him at the edge, and you end up spiking him anyways.
Can i get some input from a snake if they would instantly cypher, another thing is if they do survive the fair. they will have to c4 recover causing them more damage and also setting up for another fair.
input please?
if ever i find myself under the ledge (from a low damage spike, wolf's dthrow or whatever) ill always do the following:

1. use my double jump to get some distance from the edge, blowing up any c4 i have while doing so
2. use cypher to get further distance from the stage (as to avoid further edgeguarding from most characters)
3. use c4 until i get to about 70% staying away from the stage, with the intention of recovering from above (i wont even think of going back near the ledge unless a c4 would kill me, in which case id tech the ledge)

it kinda sucks, but if a snake finds himself there, this is the only safe way to get back on the stage. the extra damage is definately worth keeping your stock. although noob snakes will probably cypher reactively.

Also note that if you're holding a grenade and snake shield drops his, your grenade will fall out of your hand.
its called stripping, and quite a few people have already brought attention to it...
 

r3d d09

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if ever i find myself under the ledge (from a low damage spike, wolf's dthrow or whatever) ill always do the following:

1. use my double jump to get some distance from the edge, blowing up any c4 i have while doing so
2. use cypher to get further distance from the stage (as to avoid further edgeguarding from most characters)
3. use c4 until i get to about 70% staying away from the stage, with the intention of recovering from above (i wont even think of going back near the ledge unless a c4 would kill me, in which case id tech the ledge)

it kinda sucks, but if a snake finds himself there, this is the only safe way to get back on the stage. the extra damage is definately worth keeping your stock. although noob snakes will probably cypher reactively.



its called stripping, and quite a few people have already brought attention to it...


I did this at the tourny that i hosted. and it seemed to work quite well, just chain to ledge. Hobble, they double jump/cypher, fair, then they c-4 themselves.
at times it killed them, others they damaged themselves heavily, just leading to a grab to a charged smash.
Try it in some friendlies sometime.
 

ChamP_SlayZ

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In this match-up I have learned the hard way if ur close to snake... GTFO! NEVER try to fight him head on. I like to Ice block n Desync blizz pending on the situation of course(like nades n c4s n such) n try n try again for the grab if u can't CG snake very good then this match-up is like impossible lol IMO 65-35.
 

r3d d09

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In this match-up I have learned the hard way if ur close to snake... GTFO! NEVER try to fight him head on. I like to Ice block n Desync blizz pending on the situation of course(like nades n c4s n such) n try n try again for the grab if u can't CG snake very good then this match-up is like impossible lol IMO 65-35.
I believe it was Hylian, but he has a grab that basically retreats out of nades. It might be in an earlier post on this thread, i think there was a video to it as well.
 

Hylian

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I believe it was Hylian, but he has a grab that basically retreats out of nades. It might be in an earlier post on this thread, i think there was a video to it as well.
Yeah, it works really well. I took razers snake to 3rd game last stock at hobo and he got 1st >_>. I always got away from his nades in time when I grabbed him.
 

ChamP_SlayZ

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Yeah that sounds like a good idea. Only thing is u gotta watch for those silly broken tilts! Lol =( snake is hard to fight.. go ICs!! Yay!
 

momochuu

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'kay. It's Monday, and no Snake mains are coming to this thread, so I guess we can move on.
 

lain

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The silliest matchup in the game

Ok, this is what I know. (everything futurewrestler said is right)

- Desyncing is NOT good in this matchup. It will only **** you up. However, short hop approaching blizzards spaced REALLY well may have the capacity to block nades being thrown at you.

- Full hop ice block makes snake approach (or at least deters his camping) because they make him shield at awkward times and ****ing up his grenade cooking. Ice blocks also can stop snake from fsmashing your nana once he's separated you both.

- Squall hammer should be used more in this matchup then most others. But you have to realize that:
1) You have to squall the upper part of his body to not explode the grenade
2) Squall is good for moving away from bad situations. And there will be a lot of them.
3) Only squall if you are sure you will hit or shield poke. And don't just try and run around trying to squall him like an idiot.

- Squalling onto the stage isn't the smartest idea. Instead use upb more. However as FW said, you're now on the edge. This is where squall comes into play. If you are on smashville edge, wait for the moving platform and squall onto it. On Battlefield, Squall from the ledge to the top platform. On Yoshi's, squall to the middle platform as far from snake as possible. For the other stages, and in instances on every stage, you're going to just have to time the squall and try and pass through him. Simply standing up on the ledge I do a lot now.

- Do Hylian's Patented Snake-Killing-Whilst-Avoiding-Grenades CG(tm). When you grab them, immediately dthrow again into nana grabbing. Then immediately run past snake and pivot grab with Popo. You have to run a little farther then you think because IC pivot grab range is actually pretty sexy.

- When below snake, the Uairs are key. If the try to airdodge, fall with them and uair them out of it.

- The most likely way you're going to grab a good snake player is by pivot grabbing him when he's landing. It covers him simply falling, airdodgding, or bairing. If they start b-sticking grenades, this leaves them in a vulnerable position. I'm not sure if anyone's tried this yet but if they do that and you grab them, wait JUST the right time to cook the nade and then uthrow them. If they airdodge to avoid the grenade it's a free Belay. Probably very difficult to pull of though.

- Snake can't pull nades if you hobble them the right way.

- Never roll into or behind a snake player.

- Don't challenge nair. You have nothing to beat it with.

- Your dair beats his usmash explodey thing. However in some situations you're just going to want to squall away. **EXTREMELY USEFUL**

- The point of juggling him in the air is to uair him a bunch to get him to airdodge into the ground so you can grab him.

- If you grab snake, KILL HIM. If you let Snake out at 180% he's still dangerous to IC's.

There will always be more to learn for at least a while.

Meep knows a ridiculous amount of crap on this matchup. He'll chime in later probably.
 

Hylian

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Retreating full hopped bair will hit snake out of nair and won't explode a nade if they nair with a nade like uair will.

If you know a nade is going to explode when you grab them and you can't get away then just start dashing forwards. Nana will fthrow and you can intercept snake with fair/bair and possibly kill him at high %'s.
 

lain

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If you know a nade is going to explode when you grab them and you can't get away then just start dashing forwards. Nana will fthrow and you can intercept snake with fair/bair and possibly kill him at high %'s.
LMFAO brilliant. This is the kind of power IC's have. Let's figure out how to work **** out like THIS.

And no I'm not talking about crazy *** throw combos. I'm talking about using the power of both to get around any obstacle.
 

meepxzero

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teaching the babies....
lain pretty much hit up all the points i woulda hit up lol. Sorry im lazy for typing stuff. You have to play ic literally PERFECT to stand a chance in the match up.

Instead of alt grabbing for a kill after 60-80% depending on how badly the snake struggles out I reccomend hobbling. Its better to kill snake dead then to *** up a cg at around 120%. If you hobble expect to do it to 150% to garentee he dies.

The ustream is a pretty good idea of how the match up should be handled. Even the vid i wasnt playing perfect (messed up some crucial infinites), but if i messed up more times hrnut coulda easily have taken the win.

belaying snakes cypher can net you a quick kill if they dont expect it.

oh yea having an awareness of where the c4 and nades are is CRUCIAL.
 

Teh Future

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Is the pivot grab thing the ONLY way to get out before the grenade explodes? You can input nana to dash before shes regrabs after dthrow and she goes pretty far away, then you just input another dash attack w/ popo and he will dash forward and stop right in front of nana for the regrab. The only thing is that I dunno if this is far enough to be away from the grenade exploding.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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Is the pivot grab thing the ONLY way to get out before the grenade explodes? You can input nana to dash before shes regrabs after dthrow and she goes pretty far away, then you just input another dash attack w/ popo and he will dash forward and stop right in front of nana for the regrab. The only thing is that I dunno if this is far enough to be away from the grenade exploding.
I'm pretty sure one of the climbers will still get hit by the nade. Either way, my version always gets you away so >_>.
 
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