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Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee
- Thread starter Prawn
- Start date
Teh Future
Smash Master
lol sorry I just tested it and nana does still get hit so...
OLIMAR!!!
Everyone thinks this is like a 70-30 but this is not true at all.
At most 60-40 ICs and probably not even that.
Desynced blizzard ***** Olimar, yes its true and most people know that, the only thing that goes through it are purple pikmin so if he is on a purple one just shield, hes olimar so they probably aren't going to approach right after it and you can just desync again while hes camping for no reason. Basically Olimar has to try to get around blizzard which he can in certian situations Like if you rush forward and short hop blizzard with popo he can come from above, so you have to be careful with it if he has no purple pikmin you can take all day lol. The best way for Olimar to interupt desynced blizzard is with nair from above which if they land on the ground before the move ends combos into an upsmash so like I said be careful.
Once you hit Olimar with blizzard and he pops into the air have fun. Olimar is pretty bad once you get underneath and he only have one jump so you can combo with upairs and if his landing is choreographed than grab him > death. When CGing Olimar never try to spike him he will easily cancel it at really high percentages. If he is close to the ground its best to just stay there yourself because if you try to hit him with an arieal he can use his superarmor frames with whistle to take the hit and then smack you from the ground while you are recoverying from the move
When Olimar is recovering from the top of the screen you are not going to gimp him, he can whistle/airdoge ect all day. Instead stay on stage and force them to the ledge. When you put pressure on them there they will hit you with upair from beneath the stage so dont get too close to the ledge. Blizzard ***** here. If they are careless you can hit them with dtilt and it will pretty much always kill them unless they are really low percent.
The hardest part of the matchup is what to do once you get hit. Olimar has ******** combos and even though his grab game is obviously limited here he can still **** you pretty hard once you are in the air. His upair beats dair quite easily and it has a lingering hitbox. When you are recoverying from getting knocked off stage generally it is best to get close to the stage and then try to use squall horizontally, paralel with the stage unless Olimar chases you in the air or offstage in which case you can use upB. Like Snake dont try to go over him unless its to a platform or he is in the air because he can upsmash you out of it. Purple pikmin upsmash will kill you at lower percents than Snake uptilt, plus it is very quick and has few recovery frames.
Dont dash>shield or dash> anything as an approach,You will get pivotgrabbed and be throw away before the other climber has time to react.
I know people say squall is good here but I find the opposite to be true. Olimar can easily pivot grab or downsmash OoS and then you have the trouble of getting back to a neutral position.
The biggest problem in the matchup is how to recover, as ICs is very gimpable and Olimar can take advantage of this very well.
That was kind of messy and not in any order, but I hope it helps because I have a lot of expierence in this matchup.
OLIMAR!!!
Everyone thinks this is like a 70-30 but this is not true at all.
At most 60-40 ICs and probably not even that.
Desynced blizzard ***** Olimar, yes its true and most people know that, the only thing that goes through it are purple pikmin so if he is on a purple one just shield, hes olimar so they probably aren't going to approach right after it and you can just desync again while hes camping for no reason. Basically Olimar has to try to get around blizzard which he can in certian situations Like if you rush forward and short hop blizzard with popo he can come from above, so you have to be careful with it if he has no purple pikmin you can take all day lol. The best way for Olimar to interupt desynced blizzard is with nair from above which if they land on the ground before the move ends combos into an upsmash so like I said be careful.
Once you hit Olimar with blizzard and he pops into the air have fun. Olimar is pretty bad once you get underneath and he only have one jump so you can combo with upairs and if his landing is choreographed than grab him > death. When CGing Olimar never try to spike him he will easily cancel it at really high percentages. If he is close to the ground its best to just stay there yourself because if you try to hit him with an arieal he can use his superarmor frames with whistle to take the hit and then smack you from the ground while you are recoverying from the move
When Olimar is recovering from the top of the screen you are not going to gimp him, he can whistle/airdoge ect all day. Instead stay on stage and force them to the ledge. When you put pressure on them there they will hit you with upair from beneath the stage so dont get too close to the ledge. Blizzard ***** here. If they are careless you can hit them with dtilt and it will pretty much always kill them unless they are really low percent.
The hardest part of the matchup is what to do once you get hit. Olimar has ******** combos and even though his grab game is obviously limited here he can still **** you pretty hard once you are in the air. His upair beats dair quite easily and it has a lingering hitbox. When you are recoverying from getting knocked off stage generally it is best to get close to the stage and then try to use squall horizontally, paralel with the stage unless Olimar chases you in the air or offstage in which case you can use upB. Like Snake dont try to go over him unless its to a platform or he is in the air because he can upsmash you out of it. Purple pikmin upsmash will kill you at lower percents than Snake uptilt, plus it is very quick and has few recovery frames.
Dont dash>shield or dash> anything as an approach,You will get pivotgrabbed and be throw away before the other climber has time to react.
I know people say squall is good here but I find the opposite to be true. Olimar can easily pivot grab or downsmash OoS and then you have the trouble of getting back to a neutral position.
The biggest problem in the matchup is how to recover, as ICs is very gimpable and Olimar can take advantage of this very well.
That was kind of messy and not in any order, but I hope it helps because I have a lot of expierence in this matchup.
I think the snake discussion at the moment is too interesting then to already move on to olimar, about olimar though, run forward with shield+dodge might be a way of getting grabs, if shielding wasnt recomended, false predictability ftw.
Dtilt for edgeguard oppoturnity is probably a good thing too when talking about snake, probably best on BF...
Dtilt for edgeguard oppoturnity is probably a good thing too when talking about snake, probably best on BF...
lain
Smash Master
Olimar:
~60:40
- He can totally grab you through blizzard. Why does no one know this?
- Olimar has no vertical attacks. This means you airdodge in towards him and grab. If he starts pivot grabbing, just start squalling into him. When they land they can land with a nair so make sure to shield the whole thing and they are screwed.
- Nair kills all pikmin on you.
- There is a hobble you can do that gimps Oli's at low percents (bthrow hobble to dtilt).
- Ice block sucks in this matchup.
- When you cg olimar it's like fireworks gong off.
~60:40
- He can totally grab you through blizzard. Why does no one know this?
- Olimar has no vertical attacks. This means you airdodge in towards him and grab. If he starts pivot grabbing, just start squalling into him. When they land they can land with a nair so make sure to shield the whole thing and they are screwed.
- Nair kills all pikmin on you.
- There is a hobble you can do that gimps Oli's at low percents (bthrow hobble to dtilt).
- Ice block sucks in this matchup.
- When you cg olimar it's like fireworks gong off.
Teh Future
Smash Master
Only certian Pikmin have a grab long enough to actually go through(Only blue?) and if it is desynced then most of the time the other climber will break the grab and then Olimar is screwed.
r3d d09
Smash Master
This is probably my toughest matchup. I will play my friends oli and take some notes and post later this week.
Jupz
Smash Master
Nice summaries lain. 
Olimars Fsmash and Usmash are quite effective at stopping approaches. Beware of his Uair which can split you up really easily. His aerials are effective at ****** Nana and he can spike her (and you if your not careful
). He can use the whistle armour to get down from juggle traps and avoid kill moves
Olimars Fsmash and Usmash are quite effective at stopping approaches. Beware of his Uair which can split you up really easily. His aerials are effective at ****** Nana and he can spike her (and you if your not careful
). He can use the whistle armour to get down from juggle traps and avoid kill moves
Diddyknight
Smash Lord
Imma bullet point of what i know of this matchup >_>
* He can grab you out of Squal Hammer
* When doing the Sh blizzard wall, Only the yellow pikmin go through
* Squalling a lot is useful for this matchup mainly because Squall hammer goes through almost everything Olimar has
* Vertical Approches(lower than Nerds Rope) are needed mainly because he can attack you only up, down, and ...diagnal(UpB)
* Oli's Smashes will break Squall Hammer if its the right pikmin, and the right timing of smash
* Pikmin throwing can be removed from Nair(imo i like it, not sure on other aeriels)
* Spamming Fsmashing Oli's are annoying to deal with, so approach from above
* Watch out for Tether Feint ( UpB to lagless smash/ anything)
* IB can be useful in this matchup also......Gimping lol
* Must Gimp or Kill if land grab....Oli usually can make it up for the damage
* ......
uhhh....not sure if this is right or not but...Correct me if im wrong ^_^;;
* He can grab you out of Squal Hammer
* When doing the Sh blizzard wall, Only the yellow pikmin go through
* Squalling a lot is useful for this matchup mainly because Squall hammer goes through almost everything Olimar has
* Vertical Approches(lower than Nerds Rope) are needed mainly because he can attack you only up, down, and ...diagnal(UpB)
* Oli's Smashes will break Squall Hammer if its the right pikmin, and the right timing of smash
* Pikmin throwing can be removed from Nair(imo i like it, not sure on other aeriels)
* Spamming Fsmashing Oli's are annoying to deal with, so approach from above
* Watch out for Tether Feint ( UpB to lagless smash/ anything)
* IB can be useful in this matchup also......Gimping lol
* Must Gimp or Kill if land grab....Oli usually can make it up for the damage
* ......
uhhh....not sure if this is right or not but...Correct me if im wrong ^_^;;
Tin Man
Smash Hero
power sheilding into olimar works well, and if he grab u, u can punish with nana.
blizzard wall works well, ice block can be an effective gimp
short hop squall hammer to uairs racks up a lot of damage, when oli is above u, go full offensive, however he can whistle instead of air dodge then uair.
iunno if oli uair goes through ICs down air.
short hopped synched ice blocks work well.
Matchup is definately in IC advantage.
blizzard wall works well, ice block can be an effective gimp
short hop squall hammer to uairs racks up a lot of damage, when oli is above u, go full offensive, however he can whistle instead of air dodge then uair.
iunno if oli uair goes through ICs down air.
short hopped synched ice blocks work well.
Matchup is definately in IC advantage.
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this... Do you mean diagonal? Because that's obviously where Olimar lacks. But vertical, although our usmash lacks priority, it's one of our better attacks. Also, as for uair since it's been brought up a few times, our uair will go through anything you have. I don't think any of the Ice Climbers' moves will out prioritize it.
Ice Climbers' main approach is going to be Desynced blizzard, as not much else will be reliable enough to not get grabbed. And popo getting grabbed > Back throw is easily 30+ damage to nana. After Popo is back thrown, Nana will run straight into Olimar charging a down smash, and continue to be comboed afterwards.
Basically Olimar is never going to approach... ever. Neither character really has a safe approach that won't get them grabbed other than your Desynced Blizzard. Squall Hammer isn't a safe approach, as most of our fsmashes (3/5 colors) will go through it, as will our grab. Also a shielded Squall Hammer (in the air or not) can be followed with an up/down smash.
About blue or yellows or whatever being the only ones to go through blizzard... It's often thought that blues and whites have more range than yellows and reds but they don't. Red/Yellow/Blue/White all have the same grab range. Also I'm pretty sure a pivot grab will just about always go through a desynced blizzard.
I'm unsure of what the matchup is, but I feel it's around even.
Also, I liked the fireworks comment lain
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this... Do you mean diagonal? Because that's obviously where Olimar lacks. But vertical, although our usmash lacks priority, it's one of our better attacks. Also, as for uair since it's been brought up a few times, our uair will go through anything you have. I don't think any of the Ice Climbers' moves will out prioritize it.
Ice Climbers' main approach is going to be Desynced blizzard, as not much else will be reliable enough to not get grabbed. And popo getting grabbed > Back throw is easily 30+ damage to nana. After Popo is back thrown, Nana will run straight into Olimar charging a down smash, and continue to be comboed afterwards.
Basically Olimar is never going to approach... ever. Neither character really has a safe approach that won't get them grabbed other than your Desynced Blizzard. Squall Hammer isn't a safe approach, as most of our fsmashes (3/5 colors) will go through it, as will our grab. Also a shielded Squall Hammer (in the air or not) can be followed with an up/down smash.
About blue or yellows or whatever being the only ones to go through blizzard... It's often thought that blues and whites have more range than yellows and reds but they don't. Red/Yellow/Blue/White all have the same grab range. Also I'm pretty sure a pivot grab will just about always go through a desynced blizzard.
I'm unsure of what the matchup is, but I feel it's around even.
Also, I liked the fireworks comment lain
Blue and white have slightly more range, i just tested.
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
From a regular grab it isn't enough to make a difference though. It visibly is, but where the pikmin's grab box is isn't much of a difference from red/yellow. However from a pivot grab, the difference is extremely noticeable.
pretty sure i main snake and have posted a few times in here...
i posted this about a week ago in the q&a thread and no one seemed to know about it then, either...
just for the record, i only approach with sh squall if the oli doesnt have enough room to retreat and pivot grab. push him towards an edge first.
and if he grabs one ic from a pivot grab good luck punishing it with the other. you can move that fast, and if you chase youll probs eat a dsmash.
r3d d09
Smash Master
What grab works best for oli? or is it a personal preference?
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
You're talking about what colors, right?
For comboes, all pikmin work well except Purple. Blues deal the most damage from throws and are best for separating the ICs due to the back throw knock back. Yellows also work well against you, as the electricity from the DThrow hits Nana extremely easily. White pummel does the same.
Blues and Purples are the easiest to kill with from throws, but purples are hard to grab with most of the time. Yellows kill as well, but not until really high percents (170ish). Reds and whites will pretty much never kill you but are alright for dthrow comboes/setups, as are yellows.
edit: just realized what you were talking about ^^;
Prawn
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2009
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- 3,031
r3d d09
Smash Master
BananaHammock follows through with the answer i was looking for. lol. thanks for the in depth stuff though Hilt.
Fino
Smash Master
IC's are fun to play, because you get to abuse the olimar sterotype of just spamming smashes and grabs.... and running away to do it again.
It's really all olimar can do... =-/
Blizzard does well against olimar, but that's about all you guys have to get a grab.
~Fino
It's really all olimar can do... =-/
Blizzard does well against olimar, but that's about all you guys have to get a grab.
~Fino
Noa.
Smash Master
This matchup is very even.
Icies are forced to approach and every approach gets ***** by Olimar. Fsmash and standing grab beat any ground approach and we can pivot grab approaches with aerials.
The exception is blizzard since Oli has such trouble with it. Our ways to deal with it are purple toss, certain color pivot grabs, or jump over and nair.
Icies blizzard and infinite is what makes this an even matchup.
As for stages. Olimar would probably want a stage with a lot of space to camp and pivot grab. It could be difficult approaching him on Final. Halberd is also a good stage for Oli because of the low ceiling kills with usmash. Smashville may be better for the Icies since it's smaller than Final but not riddled with platforms like battlefield.
Icies are forced to approach and every approach gets ***** by Olimar. Fsmash and standing grab beat any ground approach and we can pivot grab approaches with aerials.
The exception is blizzard since Oli has such trouble with it. Our ways to deal with it are purple toss, certain color pivot grabs, or jump over and nair.
Icies blizzard and infinite is what makes this an even matchup.
As for stages. Olimar would probably want a stage with a lot of space to camp and pivot grab. It could be difficult approaching him on Final. Halberd is also a good stage for Oli because of the low ceiling kills with usmash. Smashville may be better for the Icies since it's smaller than Final but not riddled with platforms like battlefield.
meepxzero
Smash Master
umm this match up is as even as mk vs olimar. Just like mk if the ic knows the match up its watever ratio mk vs olimar is if the mk knows what to do. People dont get the fact our blizzard is our approach. While we slowly blizzard wall toward you the only choice you have is to hide at the ledge or jump over us and pray we dont grab u. If you get caught in blizzard we can grab you. You guys have gimmicky things like planking with ur tether, but if we corner u at the ledge its riskier for you. We can blizzard you off the ledge and take it from you.
I guess the match up might be different if you have the ability to grab us out of blizzard. but if we predict your doing that we can blizzard/ic with the other climber and catch u b4 you can pull off a throw.
Olimar is a homo character and can only be beat with homo tactics. Pretty sure the ic u olimars are playing arent doing it right.
I guess the match up might be different if you have the ability to grab us out of blizzard. but if we predict your doing that we can blizzard/ic with the other climber and catch u b4 you can pull off a throw.
Olimar is a homo character and can only be beat with homo tactics. Pretty sure the ic u olimars are playing arent doing it right.
r3d d09
Smash Master
I agree with this. the oli i play is annoying, and very "homo". people saying this is an even match up, i highly doubt. if it was an even match up... why is it one of our first matchup discussions?
Not bashing any players, their opinions, anything.but the people that think it's an even match up. could we see some gameplay? maybe we are doing something wrong. Or you're doing something we don't know.
Or possibly it's just me and the oli i play. yay for being mediocre
kackamee
Smash Master
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/1877421
I'd appreciate it if someone told me what I did wrong in this matchup.
I'd appreciate it if someone told me what I did wrong in this matchup.
Prawn
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2009
- Messages
- 3,031
Not to be "that guy" but I just saw you mess up your second CG when you grabbed at over 50ish percent,
when they have that much damage and you have that much time to think and execute, you should NEVER mess them up, EVER.
EDIT: Approach with blizzard, even if its not desync'd, just SH blizzard.
My friend plays a FANTASTIC olimar and I know this matchup quite well because of it, I, in fact, LIKE the matchup.
If you get the opportunity, SH with both climbers and blizzard falling in at a diagonal angle from olimar, don't let him get under you to USmash, but find the "sweet spot" where he can't hit you.
Regarding squall, ONLY squall when you KNOW the last hit is going to get Olimar, and don't use it as an approach unless you go from retreating -> directly into squall to throw them off.
If the oli is really grab happy, you can blizzard desync and then switch it to Bair walls to throw them off.
If the IC plays creatively this matchup is easy. IMO.
Protip: Get Oli off the edge, get Nana to edgehog and Popo to stay on the stage, if he up+bs and hits nana off simply jump off and save her, if he has enough hangtime to get back on the stage just Bair, blizzard, or even Fsmash him back off. If they try to whistle the hit, then get Nana back on stage and get a grab. It takes a lot of time to get used to controlling the climbers when one is on the edge and one isn't, but its a very effective strategy to know against certain characters.
r3d d09
Smash Master
First match, the commentators said it. you were pushing too hard for a grab near the end.
Could you have CP a different stage in your favor instead of SV the whole time?
MOAR Dair
Cloud9157
Smash Journeyman
Unless I've been missing it the whole time I've mained him, all of the carrots have the same range except for purple. I think white gets a bit more distance than any of them as well.
6-4/55-45 sounds pretty good. Once we separate you and Nana is at a high enough percent , she is gone with a Dsmash. And Sopo has almost no prayer against one of the best ranged characters in the game.
The problem for us is separating. Nair may be able to do it. It's tough to shield, but it is definitely possible to shield the whole thing. If it hits, Usmash/Utilt will begin the separation. Fair one of the two and then take care of Nana.
Once we get grabbed, you should have him. From what I've seen from Lain v M2K, lightweight characters are not that difficult to CG, or maybe Lain is just that much ****.
6-4/55-45 sounds pretty good. Once we separate you and Nana is at a high enough percent , she is gone with a Dsmash. And Sopo has almost no prayer against one of the best ranged characters in the game.
The problem for us is separating. Nair may be able to do it. It's tough to shield, but it is definitely possible to shield the whole thing. If it hits, Usmash/Utilt will begin the separation. Fair one of the two and then take care of Nana.
Once we get grabbed, you should have him. From what I've seen from Lain v M2K, lightweight characters are not that difficult to CG, or maybe Lain is just that much ****.
r3d d09
Smash Master
Not just maybe, definition of **** is Lain + *player/character name here*
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
No, Nair is a horrible idea lol. It's extremely easy for ICs to shield it and easy to follow up with a grab otherwise. It also wouldn't really separate them much in general. Not enough mess with Nana without popo interfering. Back throw is definitely our best option for separating the Ice Climbers, as Nana runs right into our charged Down Smash right afterwards.
Cloud9157
Smash Journeyman
Nair would work, but not often enough that the IC player wouldn't catch on and punish it with a grab.
When we try to grab, we have to space the grab perfectly or desynced Blizzards will wreck us and let them get a grab in. But if we do get the grab, Bthrow is good as you said, as Nana doesn't think about her own safety.
Thats about it for separation though. =\
When we try to grab, we have to space the grab perfectly or desynced Blizzards will wreck us and let them get a grab in. But if we do get the grab, Bthrow is good as you said, as Nana doesn't think about her own safety.
Thats about it for separation though. =\
Teh Future
Smash Master
Olimar can use nair on top of short hop blizzard (desynced or not) but its dangerous because if we predict it you are going to eat an upair/full hop blizzard and will most likely ending up using your second jump which can = grab.
r3d d09
Smash Master
i think we should post from post to post of character discussion.
I know this is going to get a massive thread... trust me. we will have multiple re discussions by next year
so
Snake posts from #-# something like that.
I know this is going to get a massive thread... trust me. we will have multiple re discussions by next year
so
Snake posts from #-# something like that.
stoopdklutz
Smash Journeyman
I thnik the match up is 55-45, Ice CLimbers favor. The best tool in this match up is blizzard, and yeah, it doesn't even matter if you use is desynced or not, just be sure your hitting him with it, or at least stopping his pikmin with it. Never be directly above him though, he can use uair or Usmash and it may seperate the two climbers. Also, watch out for a grab happy Olimar, they got awesome range on their throws.
Desynced blizzard is the best approach here, I think.
Desynced blizzard is the best approach here, I think.
Tin Man
Smash Hero
what was the ratio for the snake matchup?
r3d d09
Smash Master
I say new matchup
momochuu
Smash Legend
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- Momochuu
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Okays. 60-40 it is for now.
Next character is Zelda. I picked this matchup so early because a lot of people seem to think Zelda vs. ICs is like 60:40 in her advantage which I find ridiculous. We need to settle this matchup. =X
Also, I'll finish the Olimar write-up by the end of the day.
Next character is Zelda. I picked this matchup so early because a lot of people seem to think Zelda vs. ICs is like 60:40 in her advantage which I find ridiculous. We need to settle this matchup. =X
Also, I'll finish the Olimar write-up by the end of the day.
Teh Future
Smash Master
hmmm I played a zelda long time ago, I just remember her fireball thing to be really annoying lol. I dont really know anything
JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
do the IC have a move that can outprioriterize Dins?hmmm I played a zelda long time ago, I just remember her fireball thing to be really annoying lol. I dont really know anything
i think IC win at camping anyway since unless Zeldas jumping high enough to throw the fireball, alternating iceblocks stop her camping, Nayrus doesn't work on them so well either.
i haven't played this matchup for a while, but Zelda can separate them pretty well w/ fsmash and Dsmash since nana might not block it in time. possibly Nayrus, but thats more risky since its laggy.
i think at worst it could be 60:40 zelda, but i can see it being even.
sorry i don't have much input.