Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[K 2]

75:25 I don't see any way for jiggs to penetrate G&W's fortress of priority. As long as G&W spaces bair correctly, jiggs doesn't have any answer to punish G&W. Also, Jiggs would have a hard time getting out of G&W's nair/uair juggle trap. G&W kills jiggs with an usmash at what, 60%?

 

[TheStig]

g&w kills jiggly easily. nair pretty much destroys jiggly. the only thing jiggly has going is that she can hit g&w in the early frames of nair, and camp. also she can drillrest g&w at 60%.

I think that 80:20 sounds right.

 

[GeneralWoodman]

80-20 sounds about right. The only way Jiggs can hit you is if she throws out a pound, as it has ridiculous priority. It can usually stop MK's tornado.

pound almost never stops tornado unless u hit the nado in its last frame in which all attacks would work at that point :/

 

[Metatitan]

75:25 gw. he kills really earlier, has higher priority etc. the only thing jiggs is praying for is lucky rollout/rest KO's and her air mobility (which doesnt say much considering theres no point in being mobile if u cant break through the other person's priority). I'd say olimar is a worse matchup for her although gw is just as bad

 

[illinialex24]

Actually guys you have something very wrong. Never take Jigglypuff to Green Greens unless you want to get beat. Thats where she will take you. Unfortunately, although it didn't turn out that well for me against NoJ, it was mainly because he's a much better player. This stage is a great CP for her despite the low ceiling. Its high enough to give her what she wants but not too high to make bucket breaking very useful. The explosives are in Jigglypuff's favor by a huge amount.

And on RC, U-smash kills at like 10%.......

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Green Greens is amazing for G&W. He can abuse the explosives pretty **** well; His Dair, Bair, and Fair trigger them without damaging you, as well as Dtilt, Chef, and UpB acting the same. Bucket Braking might not be as amazing as on other stages, but the camping ability he gains from playing here is great.

Also, on RC, G&W's Uair kills at 0% x)

 

[illinialex24]

Green Greens is amazing for G&W. He can abuse the explosives pretty **** well; His Dair, Bair, and Fair trigger them without damaging you, as well as Dtilt, Chef, and UpB acting the same. Bucket Braking might not be as amazing as on other stages, but the camping ability he gains from playing here is great.

Also, on RC, G&W's Uair kills at 0% x)

Trust me, not against a Jigglypuff. Her aerial mobility screws with him so badly here. This is the stage you want to ban, not CP against a Jigglypuff.

 

[Neb]

8:2, 75:25 at least. G&W wins out in the majority of the match-ups main points- KO'ing, priority, pressure, damage-output, traps, walls, camping, edgeguarding, range, survivability, and adaptivity. I just can't see this match-up being swayed over, simply because Jiggs has a tad bit more aerial mobility.

 

[illinialex24]

8:2, 75:25 at least.

Fixed. 75-25 I believe you meant. And I agree with 80-20 atm

 

[Tenki]

Sonic: (65/35)

General Matchup:

• Sonic also has a hard time landing kills, but if you aren't careful, they can sneak them in. Fsmash is probably his strongest one, but it isn't the fastest of smashes. On the same token, when in close range, dsmash is also quite strong but a tad slow. Other aerials that can kill are bair and up air when used higher up.
  
• Sonic can buffer out of the d/throwsmash combo, however his tech roll isn't too long so tech chases are certainly possible. Side/down b's certainly help sonic get out of up air spams, and his frame is sorta small, so nair combos get hurt a bit.

[1] Sonic's D-smash actually comes out faster than his F-smash, being about "10%" weaker in damage needed to kill. It has lower range than F-smash. In overall length of time, it's longer though.


[2] After reading this, I realized you meant the GAW d-throw.
Anyway, keep in mind that you can DI Sonic's D-throw downwards, do a standing tech, and get a free jab before he can do anything.

[3] Please make mention of Sonic's shield cancels for his spindashes. Side-B's charge (it slides backwards as it's charging) can be shield cancelled, and aerial down-B's release/landing can be shield cancelled as well.
Certain Sonics make quite a bit of use of these as fakeouts.

I don't mean to revive the discussion, just to bring up some 'corrections'/things that should, IMO, be mentioned.

 

[Veril]

G&W kills like a beast, whereas Jiggly just doesn't kill; the only time you should ever be dying below like 150 is if she lands a rest on you, otherwise she has very mediocre options...

Rest is a decent move, though. It can kill you pretty early if she lands it, so be careful with your jabs, as she can SDI into you and lay on the hurt. If she misses, it's game over for her. Also, be glad that your Bair is disjointed

Hey GW people. I'm a JBR member and probably the expert on rest, so I'll try to put in some useful stuff.

First off, I agree that GW is **** in a cake. The above comment has a few issues.

1. Jigglypuff can kill. Why people think otherwise is probably because people let the f-air get stale. Fresh f-air is a good KO move. Unfortunately Jigglypuff is also great at dying.

2. Really good Jigglypuff mains don't miss rest. I miss it all the time on wifi, but offline it almost neverr happens and I'm not pro. Missing rest is so avoidable that it shouldn't even be considered an issue at the highest level.

3. B-air really isn't that great.


You know we can SDI into your jab. That's a rest interrupt, there are others: b-air, d-throw chases, nair. They vary in terms of the SDI and spacing. N-air and b-air are situational, d-throw we can f*** with consistently but its tough. That said, don't use d-throw when you're at KO%. You'll get punished.

What you may be less familiar with are perfect rests, or resting through or around hitboxes. Rest's invincibility frames give it priority over EVERYTHING. Your d-air can be perfect rested pretty consistently with practice and I know Jigglypuff mains who can pull it off pretty well. Poorly spaced anything is gonna eat a rest. I don't feel like listing everything.

Basically since very few people have really had to deal with Jiggly ATs (they exist now lol) I don't generally counterpick vs. GW. Once someone catches on then I probably will.

75:25

We'll ban Corneria, you should ban Green-Greens.

 

[cutter]

Veril, what are some of JP's ATs, and how can they be used constructively in a match?

 

[illinialex24]

Veril, what are some of JP's ATs, and how can they be used constructively in a match?

Very basic ones are include Boost Smashing, which is actually very effective on G&W compared to just about everything she has. She also has a very good waveland that works fairly well and makes her a very good grab character especially with her fairly good grab range. Also, she can rest interrupt a lot of moves and this is very useful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQSEhawLRuE&fmt=6

She also has a sing lightstep that allows her to stay under the ledge fairly well if she needs to.

Another AT is she can actually wall cling indefinitely on the blocks of Green Greens, and she can move off immediately making it a very good CP.

 

[omegablackmage]

Jigglypuff: (80/20)

General Matchup:

• Jigglypuff is a very floaty, aerial, mobile character that can be a deadly edgeguarder in the right hands. She's very light and not very strong, but can be really hard to hit if played well.
• Her best priority/range is probably found in her pound, which shouldn't be taken lightly. She also gets invincibility frames on her rest, which can allow her to interrupt many attacks. Bair/fair/fsmash also have pretty good range too.
• Her best ko moves are likely to be fair, smashes, and possibly a rest if she can sneak it in. These moves aren't particularly strong, but they can kill you at around the 120 range for sure.
• Jigglypuff is probably one of the most aggressive edgeguarders in the game. Given that she is really floaty, has a lot of jumps, and a very strong forward air, she can really do some damage offstage. However, gw can interrupt all of jigglypuff's aerials with his own, she would only be able to guard gw if she can catch him off guard.
• Although jigglypuff has a lot of jumps, she would have a hard time getting around his hitboxes. She has no way to effectively lower or raise herself around gw, and would have to move forward or back, which could put her in even more of a bad situation.
• She doesn't have any particularly devastating combos, keep in mind that her dair can trip into smashes, and some of her tilts can combo into boosted smashes if you aren't ready for them.
• Jigglypuff is too light to buffer a roll out of your downsmash, and she has poor roll lengths so dthrow should be your bet most of the time. Up air spam also works really well vs jiggz because she is so floaty and doesn't have any good b stick/momentum shifting tricks.

General Strategies:

• Overall this matchup you will outkill, outrange, outprioritize, outrecover, essentially do everything better than jiggz, which is why i gave it an 8/2. If you just pressure her a lot with aerials, you'll rack up damage quick and be able to kill her with an upsmash at around 70 damage or so.
• Things to keep in mind, if you jab combo her, she can di into you and rest. Pound can reach through your nair. Her boosted upsmash goes a surprising distance, and its pretty fast too. Don't underestimate how fast the fair can kill when its fresh.

Stages:

• Best stage to fight her is RC likely, due to early upsmash kills, but halberd works well too.
• Avoid green greens/norfair if possible, she does probably the best on those stages. Most neutrals should work out well for you.

 

[Hylian]

Marth:

Try to get him off stage alot because he's pretty easy to gimp.

On stage he's a nightmare and has an answer to almost anything you do .

 

[ShadowLink84]

Marth:

Try to get him off stage alot because he's pretty easy to gimp.

On stage he's a nightmare and has an answer to almost anything you do .

G&W: BAIR!
Marth: SHORYUKEN!
G&W: Nair?
Marth: THUNDERBOLT CUT!
G&W: DTILT!?
MarthOKE!
G&W: FSMASH!
Marth: YOU MISSED! TIPPER SMASH!

 

[PentaSalia]

is Uairs useful against marth? i'm guessing yes
just wondering lol

 

[cutter]

Uair is pretty good considering he has a blind spot below him due to his crappy Dair, but Marth does have good aerial mobility so he can get out if he knows what to do.

 

[omegablackmage]

kinda, but he has decent air movement and if he reads you right he can counter a nair. I've had a hard time keeping marth in the air on stages like fd, but that might be just me.

Also for the everyone coming in for the rediscuss, please read the current write up i have on marth, and argue any discrepancies you see with it, or bring up new points that might outdate what we have up there right now. ALSO PLEASE PUT A RATIO WITH YOUR THOUGHTS

 

[Neb]

When Marth approaches, I like to crouch, this pressures him into fast falling the majority of his air-game, which limits some of his aerial mix-ups. If he enters your bubble vertically, stuff his attack with your upb (may need to angle), if he doubles his aerials, shield the initial blow, and follow up with a shield grab, jab, dtilt, dasha, or upb, crouching also usually guarantee's a whiff.

You need to capitalize on your juggle traps, and edgeguarding. And you shouldn't really be approaching, just punishing spacing mistakes. Every time he advances, simply walk just barely out of his blades tip, and punish the cooldown.

 

[PentaSalia]

thanks ,Uair seems to work a fair amount of times against marth
best not to over use it though
anything to get marth in the air x_X
dtilt kinda works as well

like Hylian said, on stage he's a nightmare

 

[omegablackmage]

yeah he really is, which is a big problem for gw. You really can't approach him at all, unless its gunna be a big mixup, like a land behind grab or something, which gets old quick. Im def thinking this matchup is at least 4/6 given how good marth is at punishing us.

 

[cutter]

One more thing before I leave for the day; be aware that if you're shielding Marth's side B he can stop the move early and try to punish your shielding (because you'll probably be assuming Marth will be doing all 4 attacks on his side B) with something like a grab or even a neutral B for an easy shield break.

 

[PentaSalia]

lol yea,i hate when that happens
totally don't expect it
i try and upB instead of shielding

as for marth i say i agree 4/6,but not any less
the fact that if you get him in the air you have advantage,is good enough that marth doesn't dominate G&W................that much lol

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Marth's Uair is really good, some Marth's chain Fair to FFUair, which is ****.

G&W can kill Marth pretty early, Marth's quite light, but I don't really know how G&W can approach Marth at all.

Marth's Counter can mess up G&W pretty badly, especially Bair and Dair, not to mention those telegraphed smashes, so be careful. Also if you go for a Bair on Mrth's shield he can Whale Render you which kills fairly early.

You can gimp Marth pretty easily, his recovery is pretty suckish, and yours a G&W is great, which takes away his possibilities of gimping you, especially with your invincibility frames on Up-B.

Marth can kill upwards surprisingly well with tipper Utilt and tipper Uair, both killing at about 105-115% fresh iirc, and on you as G&W most likely more in the 90-100% range.

Don't let him zone you too badly or it will be a very tough fight for you, make use of your aerials off stage for quick kills, and try for an early smash on him if possible.

60-40 Marth

 

[Neb]

If your sitting in your shield while dancing blade is in use, just upb during the stance transitions.
But in terms of approaching, my objective is to get inside, so I like throwing out moves like dtilt, fsmash, or dashA at ranges that will hit the tip of his sword, this way I have a chance at clashing while at safe distance.

 

[cutter]

Yeah you can definately up B if Marth decides to end his side B early; it's just a little trick he can use if he's conditioning you into shielding all four hits.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Try to get him off stage alot because he's pretty easy to gimp.

I disagree with this statement. Marth is VERY hard to edgeguard if he knows what he's doing. He outranges all of the stuff you would normally use to edgeguard. His counter offstage can be retardedly hard to punish. You can't put him in the position where he can be edgeguarded if he knows how to DI (it's impossible to land sourspot D-smash against a good Marth....you have to get too close to do that, and he will probably Up-B, grab, or do some other nonsense to you if he sees you starting up D-smash).

The one thing you can get that is guaranteed on his recovery is D-air. D-air will hit him out of his Up-B. You can hope to stagespike him, but I'm pretty sure a good player will figure out how to edgetech it. At really high percents....it can kill I guess.

As I said earlier, I'm convinced Marth is G&W's worst matchup. He can shut down G&W consistently anywhere. The key word being consistently. G&W doesn't have the range to challenge Marth without taking a risk at any time. Marth's broken defensive game doesn't help things at all either.

 

[Hylian]

*facepalm*

You know it's possible to space off stage right? And you being on the stage while marth is recovering gives you a huge advantage in the spacing game.

If you hit marth with a Dtilt by the edge he is pretty much dead. Just run off and fair. If he jumps, then DJ fair and it will hit him. If he falls, keep falling with him. Fair as you are falling at a certain point(where he would try and jump and fair you) and if he jumps into he dies. If he doesn't jump into it you can up-b back and edgehog him. You can also drag marth downwards with nair, bair to up-b, Dair for quick edgeguards, and so many other things. GW has a ton of options for edgeguarding marth considering how linear marths recovery is.

 

[K 2]

I don't really have a problem with Shield Breaker mixed in with Dancing Blade. Just DI up and jump or 'chute away.

If you perfectly space a turtle, can Up b out of shield hit you?

I find charging smashes really effective against marth. Given the fact that G&W's smashes are all telegraphed enough to be easily countered, you might be able to bait a counter and hit them with a charged smash. However, Marth could just Up b you.

How do you guys get around Marth's uair. Everytime I up b to escape from Dancing Blade, I find myself having to get around marth's uair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you hit marth with a Dtilt by the edge he is pretty much dead.

Wow no, that doesn't happen unless you're playing on a stage like Yoshis.

Just run off and fair.

If he sees this coming...it won't stop him from using counter or a F-air, unless he's like 1000 miles away from the stage.

If he jumps, then DJ fair and it will hit him.

*insert what I said earlier plus dancing blade boost*

If he falls, keep falling with him.

I fail to see how you're going to fall with him when he can put an aerial where you are that has more range than you do.

Fair as you are falling at a certain point(where he would try and jump and fair you) and if he jumps into he dies.

He doesn't die if he just Up-Bs. Chances are he'll either make it to the ledge, or it will trade hits, you get stagespiked or killed, and he saved his jump and gets to do that and another Up-B to make it back to the stage.

If he doesn't jump into it you can up-b back and edgehog him. You can also drag marth downwards with nair, bair to up-b, Dair for quick edgeguards, and so many other things. GW has a ton of options for edgeguarding marth considering how linear marths recovery is.

Again I pretty much disagree with all of this. Most of the options you have on Marth involve him making a mistake such as DIing badly or just being unfamiliar with the odd trick you might have up your sleeve that can be countered with a different attack. The only thing that is guaranteed and reasonably safe is D-airing his Up-B. It is true that when his recovery gets punished, it usually hurts him SEVERELY. However he has all the tools necessary to make it back to the stage consistently if he isn't dumb.

 

[UTDZac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUbtBqXEKKQ

Here's an interesting video with my G&W vs. Marth where I failed to gimp him, it's interesting. He isn't THAT good of a marth, but he beat me game 1 with Marth in our set.

I also agree the best advice is to gimp him. With a lot of play experience with a good Marth from my area, it honestly isn't all that difficult. It takes a lot of practice and knowledge of knockback from your attacks as well as range from Marth's attacks when trying to recover. Once you learn this, it makes the matchup much easier, but still tough. Don't lose your cool and stay super focused even after an early gimp.

Constantly look for openings in the Marth's attack patterns, it's really the only chance we have of getting in damage. It's so difficult if you play aggressive against Marth, as he usually has an answer for everything you try to do.

Be very wary of using Bair/Nair on the Marth's shield at high percents. UpB out of shield from Marth can lead to a free KO if you try to land one of those attacks on him. This is true especially if you nair coming back up from the ledge against Marth's shield.

As for getting the kill, it seems Dsmash is a very strong choice to kill with. Marth, as a character, will be trying to space like mad especially in the G&W matchup. Dsmash sweetspotted is practically just as lethal as Marth's tippered Fsmash with nearly the same sweetspot range. Walking Dsmashes are one of my key kill moves I love for. I need to re-lookup the percent marth dies at without DI and with DI (including a fastfalled aerial).

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-smash SUCKS against Marth. It's near useless in this matchup. The only time I ever use it is if for any dumb reason, he missed the sweetspot of the ledge.

There are pretty much two ways you can get a kill in this matchup. F-smash out of shield against one of Marth's Smashes, or F-air out of shield against some of the stuff he didn't space optimally against. And shieldcamping is dangerous against Marth if he knows how to space, D-tilt trap, and mix up with Dancing Blade.

Powershielding consistently is very important against Marth IMO.

 

[_Phloat_]

Make him approach.

I play a lot like DMG in this matchup, the 1% lead is a very valuable thing to me. I just kinda hover in and out of his range. Empty shorthops. Bair when he fairs, pushing it in to punish between fair swings.

Not an easy matchup, and the reason I have MK and Snake. I don't really know much about this one as GaW =[.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Make him approach.

I play a lot like DMG in this matchup, the 1% lead is a very valuable thing to me. I just kinda hover in and out of his range. Empty shorthops. Bair when he fairs, pushing it in to punish between fair swings.

Not an easy matchup, and the reason I have MK and Snake. I don't really know much about this one as GaW =[.

That's pretty difficult because Marth is tied with Game & Watch in aerial mobility, making air-camping (as Wario mains call it) ineffective. He can essentially do the same to Game & Watch. Retreating aerials are very hard to punish in addition to Marth having an option for all of Game & Watch's approaches.

 

[Neb]

No, G&W's aerial mobility is actually better than Marth's.
Additionally, Game & Watch has a getaway move ('chute) that can reset the neutral state, or break into another direction at any given time. Marth doesn't have that, nor the hitbox coverage to jump and skip around the stage for long periods of time.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

*facepalm*

You know it's possible to space off stage right? And you being on the stage while marth is recovering gives you a huge advantage in the spacing game.

If you hit marth with a Dtilt by the edge he is pretty much dead. Just run off and fair. If he jumps, then DJ fair and it will hit him. If he falls, keep falling with him. Fair as you are falling at a certain point(where he would try and jump and fair you) and if he jumps into he dies. If he doesn't jump into it you can up-b back and edgehog him. You can also drag marth downwards with nair, bair to up-b, Dair for quick edgeguards, and so many other things. GW has a ton of options for edgeguarding marth considering how linear marths recovery is.

As A2ZOMG stated, a lot of this isn't very valid... Marth's aerials have more range than yours, and he can just knock you away with a Fair, and Counter offstage is pretty amazing to help Marth knock you away and recover. Also, he could airdodge most of what you say here...

 

[Ruuku]

I play against arguably the best Marth in Florida on a regular basis. Using upB and u.air in a smart way is very important in this fight. To be honest, Marth's a pain and he may try to upB out of everything you do. Against Marth I usually try to get a percentage lead then I play extremely defensively ("running" away, edge camping, etc.).

 

[A2ZOMG]

If G&W has any matchup worse than 6/4, it's Marth.

Marth vs G&W, it could be 65/35 Marth. I think it's between that and 6/4 somewhere.

G&W just wasn't meant to fight Marth at all for all purposes (except teams). The matchup is really dumb, and you have to play assuming that the Marth player will make certain mistakes, or you have to have godly reflexes for powershielding (or know EXACTLY what works out of shield and never miss any opportunities for punishing). Either way, it's a stupid matchup. To make my point how stupid this matchup is for G&W, I always use Mario over G&W in this matchup. I'm extremely certain that my main Mario does better in this matchup, if maybe only slightly.

Assuming the Marth player plays without making mistakes, you will start seeing similarities between this matchup and Luigi vs G&W (from Luigi's perspective). You just don't have any really legit way to get in. That is what separates this matchup from others IMO.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

No, G&W's aerial mobility is actually better than Marth's.
Additionally, Game & Watch has a getaway move ('chute) that can reset the neutral state, or break into another direction at any given time. Marth doesn't have that, nor the hitbox coverage to jump and skip around the stage for long periods of time.

In terms of horizontal air speed, Marth and Mr. Game & Watch are tied.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=167952

I think he falls slower than Marth, which may give the impression that he has better air control. Strangely enough, this thread says otherwise.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546