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Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

A2ZOMG

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Wow sorry, I just totally suck at reading right now.

Number 6 I thought involved greater distances.

Okay so I'm like 2 feet away from you above you...something like that. D-air is mostly safe on block from Sonic...done right it shouldn't get shieldgrabbed, and Smashes are too slow to punish it. F-air is slightly laggier, but pushes you away further too. I can air dodge, which can be punished by stuff I mentioned earlier which can be punished by a D-air if I anticipate.

Sonic's top air speed is *slightly* faster than G&W's top air speed, but slower than G&W's run speed.
 

Hylian

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All this situational talk is pretty pointless :/. From my games with sonic players I notice it often plays out with the Sonic trying to bait GW into commiting to a move(Dtilt for example) with spin cancels and then grabbing him dthrowing and techchasing or uthrow and punishing a dair reaction or jump with bair or uair. If Sonic hit's GW's shield with spincharge they usually double jump up-b to dair, which is actually pretty safe if you have the key covering your landing considering Sonic has no lag and can just run right when he lands. I also see a lot of ASC to grabs going to because GW's like to sit in their shield and try and punish the spindash with uair or up-B. GW's Dtilt is useful when the sonic isn't running and you are in a positional advantage on the stage. You can keep approaching slowly with it or retreat with fair depending on their reaction. It's mainly used to bait spindashes however which I personally like to run up to and make them hit my shield but throw off their timing since I'm closer then they anticipated and get them with nair or uair/up-b. When they dair down after a spring Sonic players almost always keep running the direction they are facing so it's good to overshoot your punish as it often connects this way.

GW should never dair while sonic is anywhere near the ground or he eats free damage from grabs. Killing sonic usually happens off the edge as it's almost impossible to hit them with a smash attack when sonic just camps bairs and grabs. GW is pretty good at getting sonic offstage however and has better edgeguarding options then most against him. Sonic also has trouble killing GW, often relying on charged fsmash gimmicks or bair/homing attack edgeguards maybe from a dair offstage.

Both characters have a lot of options in almost all situations in this match-up. GW is better at recovering and killing however giving him longevity which isn't common in GW match-ups and is a pretty important advantage for him. He has the tools to punish a lot of standard sonic play on reaction. His biggest problem is sonics ability to get grabs in this match-up which leads to easy damage against GW. Sonic also has a hard time gimping GW which is something they can do to a good amount of characters.

65-35 or 60-40 in GW's favor.
 

cutter

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Just to answer the question of if Sonic is charging a B move, I would up B and reposition myself into a better situation, or just grab the ledge and go live there. The damage is just a bonus, considering it does just 6%.
 

Kinzer

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These really specific hypothetical arguments are dumb because they're hypothetical, discuss only a few possibilities out of many, and prove nothing. Not to mention they don't provide much to the match up discussion.



lulz We're talking about Sonic . . . .
Yep, too bad most of Sonic is on the battlefield, which always makes him look worse on paper.

You said it.

Sonic is kinda retardedly slow in the air. Just saying. He doesn't accelerate very fast unless he commits to a special attack.
He is the 6th fastest character in the game in the air, what is bad is his aerial acceleration, don't get the two mixed up.

I also don't have the time right now to read Hylian's WoT, I'll do it some other time.
 

A2ZOMG

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All this situational talk is pretty pointless :/. From my games with sonic players I notice it often plays out with the Sonic trying to bait GW into commiting to a move(Dtilt for example) with spin cancels and then grabbing him dthrowing and techchasing or uthrow and punishing a dair reaction or jump with bair or uair.
D-throw doesn't lead to techchase. DI it up and his followups are dead.

DI towards him when he Up-throws, he can't hit you with anything either.

If Sonic hit's GW's shield with spincharge they usually double jump up-b to dair, which is actually pretty safe if you have the key covering your landing considering Sonic has no lag and can just run right when he lands.
It depends on positioning. It's not that safe depending on where you are. If he likes D-airing from there, an Up-B or N-air can STILL punish him. His D-air has long duration and only goes in one direction. Abuse that.

I also see a lot of ASC to grabs going to because GW's like to sit in their shield and try and punish the spindash with uair or up-B.
Yeah, and as I was saying, his throws lead to nothing.

GW should never dair while sonic is anywhere near the ground or he eats free damage from grabs.
etc etc, I'm not afraid of Sonic's grab game at all when it doesn't really help him much in reliably landing much of anything else.

Killing sonic usually happens off the edge as it's almost impossible to hit them with a smash attack when sonic just camps bairs and grabs. GW is pretty good at getting sonic offstage however and has better edgeguarding options then most against him. Sonic also has trouble killing GW, often relying on charged fsmash gimmicks or bair/homing attack edgeguards maybe from a dair offstage.
True, it's hard to land Smashes on Sonic, but he can't kill you for whiffing any kill moves. He dies at REALLY low percents from an Up-smash of course, while it takes longer for him to KO you with his unsafe kill moves (whiffed Smash, he eats a F-air, which kills a lot of characters at around 110%).

Both characters have a lot of options in almost all situations in this match-up. GW is better at recovering and killing however giving him longevity which isn't common in GW match-ups and is a pretty important advantage for him. He has the tools to punish a lot of standard sonic play on reaction. His biggest problem is sonics ability to get grabs in this match-up which leads to easy damage against GW. Sonic also has a hard time gimping GW which is something they can do to a good amount of characters.
Easy damage against G&W? As I have been ranting, his throws lead to NOTHING. At most he'll be doing like 12% every 20 seconds and he gets punished severely when he messes that up.
 

Tenki

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^ way to kill my buildup :/


All this situational talk is pretty pointless :/. From my games with sonic players I notice it often plays out with the Sonic trying to bait GW into commiting to a move(Dtilt for example) with spin cancels and then grabbing him dthrowing and techchasing or uthrow and punishing a dair reaction or jump with bair or uair. If Sonic hit's GW's shield with spincharge they usually double jump up-b to dair, which is actually pretty safe if you have the key [1] (spring?) covering your landing considering Sonic has no lag and can just run right when he lands. I also see a lot of ASC to grabs going to because GW's like to sit in their shield and try and punish the spindash with uair or up-B. GW's Dtilt is useful when the sonic isn't running and you are in a positional advantage on the stage. You can keep approaching slowly with it or [2] retreat with fair depending on their reaction. It's mainly used to bait spindashes however which I personally like to run up to and make them hit my shield but throw off their timing since I'm closer then they anticipated and get them with nair or uair/up-b. When they dair down after a spring Sonic players almost always keep running the direction they are facing so it's good to overshoot your punish as it often connects this way.

[insert truth]

65-35 or 60-40 in GW's favor.
[1] Spring*, not key?
Well, it might be safe, if the spring is blocking your walk path. Some unwise and punishable ones I've seen usually involve Sonic dropping the spring overhead and D-airing the way they're facing, which is simple to punish (shield the spring, punish the landing).

[2] F-air's landing lag is punishable, but if you mean a rising FH or something 'finished'/ac'd then okay.



Anyway, I'm tired and Hylian went ahead and started it, so I'll spoil it.

My #6 was specifically mentioned to be on-stage and in front of GAW, because that's the situation that would occur if Sonic got a grab in and did U-throw/F-throw (more easily, F-throw). If you D-air and we walk out of range, you're grabbed, or maybe even foxtrot F-smashed. If you F-air from anywhere higher than say, FH height, Sonic can run under and pull a rising aerial on you. If you airdodge, we land alot of kills or get damage from ASC combos/tilts/more grabs due to airdodges

The question about GAW/Sonic's top speeds is because Sonic will not always be doing a D-air after spring. This would go with edgeguarding, because if Sonic has faster max airspeed than GAW's top speed, it makes it harder for GAW to punish a non D-air spring recovery.

D-throw doesn't lead to techchase. DI it up and his followups are dead.

DI towards him when he Up-throws, he can't hit you with anything either.
You're horribly outdated on this. We've been dealing with and punishing/playing with people who do upwards DI for a long time now.

DI downwards, standing tech. It's all the rage now.

Free followup. GUARANTEED.
 

A2ZOMG

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You're horribly outdated on this.

DI downwards, standing tech.

Free followup. GUARANTEED.
Baaaaah, now I have to learn a new tech for a matchup that I absolutely despise. I was trying to mention the safe and easy way to deal with things, but....yeah.
 

Hylian

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I didn't even read AZ's post after his first comment about how to DI when Downthrown. You should DI down and tech. You obviously don't know anything about sonic and are pulling **** out of your ***.

Tenki when I was talking about Dair after uthrow I ment some GW's habitually Dair when uthrown and they won't have the FF so it's easy for sonic to bair them >_>.
 

Hawks go Caw

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I can't think of a single character that's faster in the air than on the ground, except maybe Ganondorf (and Sentinel). There are those that are equally as fast too though. But either way, Sonic doesn't necessarily have to be really fast in the air to be able to punish a Dair. Dair gets a lot of G&W's into trouble. It's like the bane of the G&W community. Really, a lot of us, even the higher ranked/better ones, use Dair way too often. Sonic doesn't need to shield grab; he can just avoid and grab/attack or something. It's not hard to see a Dair coming.

Anyway, if we're all playing the hypothetical game: if I'm falling and there's a Sonic or anybody waiting for me I would think the best thing to do is to jump again to try to reposition things if you have another jump or Up-B and then fastfall an arial to get in a better position. Or air dodge away and buffer a Dtilt or an Ftilt or something. Dair on them if they have a tendency to shield over dodge. Seriously, there's a ton of crap that G&W can do. And there's a ton of crap Sonic can do. It seriously is futile to try to go through all of them.

"At most he'll do like 12% every 20 seconds" ? What type of "fact" is that? What the hell is the basis for that? Is that supposed to be an average? Root-mean-square? Where are these numbers coming from. Stop pulling **** out of nowhere.
 

A2ZOMG

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I didn't even read AZ's post after his first comment about how to DI when Downthrown. You should DI down and tech. You obviously don't know anything about sonic and are pulling **** out of your ***.
Wow no, this has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard you say. I've played against Sonic a lot more than most other G&W players have. If you're trying to prove me wrong, do it some other way than trying to discredit me. And DIing Up is safe and always works if you don't know how to tech the D-throw.
 

Tenki

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I didn't even read AZ's post after his first comment about how to DI when Downthrown. You should DI down and tech. You obviously don't know anything about sonic and are pulling **** out of your ***.

Tenki when I was talking about Dair after uthrow I ment some GW's habitually Dair when uthrown and they won't have the FF so it's easy for sonic to bair them >_>.
Oh, that. Failed-momentum stall-falls are punishable for like, every character =.=;

I can't think of a single character that's faster in the air than on the ground, except maybe Ganondorf (and Sentinel). There are those that are equally as fast too though. But either way, Sonic doesn't necessarily have to be really fast in the air to be able to punish a Dair. Dair gets a lot of G&W's into trouble. It's like the bane of the G&W community. Really, a lot of us, even the higher ranked/better ones, use Dair way too often. Sonic doesn't need to shield grab; he can just avoid and grab/attack or something. It's not hard to see a Dair coming.

Anyway, if we're all playing the hypothetical game: if I'm falling and there's a Sonic or anybody waiting for me I would think the best thing to do is to jump again to try to reposition things if you have another jump or Up-B and then fastfall an arial to get in a better position. Or air dodge away and buffer a Dtilt or an Ftilt or something. Dair on them if they have a tendency to shield over dodge. Seriously, there's a ton of crap that G&W can do. And there's a ton of crap Sonic can do. It seriously is futile to try to go through all of them.

"At most he'll do like 12% every 20 seconds" ? What type of "fact" is that? What the hell is the basis for that? Is that supposed to be an average? Root-mean-square? Where are these numbers coming from. Stop pulling **** out of nowhere.
lol@pattern of phrases. can you find it?

Also, Hawks: Jigglypuff is faster in the air than on the ground. Really.

Wow no, this has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard you say. I've played against Sonic a lot more than most other G&W players have. If you're trying to prove me wrong, do it some other way than trying to discredit me. And DIing Up is safe and always works if you don't know how to tech the D-throw.
I guess you can DI up. GAW's choices from that height are N-air, F-air, airdodge, or double jump/up-B. Of those, N-air is the safest attack, and double jump is the safest option.

@Sonic:
...Narx?

He does like 12% in a throw. It takes like forever for him to set up one of his mindgames into a grab if you're good.
add pummels
 

A2ZOMG

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"At most he'll do like 12% every 20 seconds" ? What type of "fact" is that? What the hell is the basis for that? Is that supposed to be an average? Root-mean-square? Where are these numbers coming from. Stop pulling **** out of nowhere.
He does like 12% in a throw. It takes like forever for him to set up one of his mindgames into a grab if you're good.
 

cutter

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This will more than likely be a huge cluster**** when I wake up tomorrow.

Matchup ratio you ask? I say 65/35 in GWs favor... and that's factoring in ledgecamping.
 

Tenki

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lol who cares about matchup ratios. I'm sure both sides agree that it's 60:40/65:35 in GAW's favor.

I'm interested in how the match plays - what moves are punishable with what, etc. :laugh:
 

cutter

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I would just play like a coward and live on the ledge since it puts GW in an excellent location while limiting what Sonic does on the stage, but alas many tourneys "ban" ledgecamping :/
 

A2ZOMG

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I'm still convinced it's at least 7/3. I mean really...as long as you edgecamp or shieldcamp....he can't kill you at all. There is always an option to stay safe from him, or only be punished by something that doesn't kill you (like retreating with air dodge so he can only reach you with liek...Dash attack lol). The kill moves he DOES have unfortunately for him are unsafe and can be punished by your own kill moves. All the qualities of a matchup that is highly in G&W's favor.
 

infomon

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I didn't even read AZ's post after his first comment about how to DI when Downthrown. You should DI down and tech. You obviously don't know anything about sonic and are pulling **** out of your ***.
In his defense, the Dthrow thing was a fairly recent discovery, and until then DI'ing up was (and still sometimes is) the best response. It's what I do LOL cuz I still sometimes miss the tech.
 

cutter

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The thing I've noticed about matchup ratios in Brawl is that they're for the most part pretty close.

7/3 and above means a hard counter/instant win. Lopsided matchups like those usually are reserved for things like DDD vs. his infinite victims, Pika/Fox, etc etc.

Except for the nightmare matchups like above, many low tier characters can actually stand a chance against many of the top tier characters. They still have an uphill battle ahead of them, but for the most part they're not completely unwinnable matchups.
 

Tenki

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oh btw, can most characters F-air OoS to punish a shielded GAW D-air?

also, just for the lulz.










...Narx?
 

Hylian

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Wow no, this has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard you say. I've played against Sonic a lot more than most other G&W players have. If you're trying to prove me wrong, do it some other way than trying to discredit me. And DIing Up is safe and always works if you don't know how to tech the D-throw.
I don't need to discredit you, you do that yourself by posting wrong information and outlandish claims. Also, what sonics have you played? Playing random people doesn't really help your credientials at all lmao.

Notice how I said discussing situational things is pointless, then went on to describe a bunch of situations and how both characters delt with them? That was just an example showing how many options both characters have in almost all situations in this match-up making talk like that circular. It really comes down to the fact that both characters have a hard time killing each other, but GW has an easier time getting Sonic offstage then vise-versa and safer recovery and edgeguarding options leading to longevity which gives him the advantage in the match-up. I'm pretty sure I've seen almost everything sonic can do in person from Espy,Mr.3000,MalcomM, and I even played Blue and Kai at CoT4 as well. This match-up is far too complicated to discuss situations as it almost never plays out the same so instead you have to focus on inherent character strengths and compare how both characters options for killing and surviving tie into the match.
 

A2ZOMG

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No, there is a big reason why everyone including me complains Brawl is unbalanced.

Brawl is a pretty one dimensional game. If something works safely, it can be done over and over again until you win. Only matchups within tiers usually are fairly balanced in Brawl (with really rare exceptions).

Hylian, I've played 14 inches of pain in tournament. He's one of the best Sonics in my area for sure (he mains Fox, but who cares, he's incredibly good in general). I have PLENTY of experience playing against Sonics, and I trust my observational skills.

One of the things that ALWAYS works against Sonic for limiting his options is shielding. No seriously, EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME makes Sonic's matchups a ***** by simply shielding. That is why he sucks.

G&W does extremely well however because he has better options out of shield for punishing Sonic. Simple as that.
 

Tenki

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I forgot how much shields ***** grabs
and that damage gained from grabs, pummels, throws, and the usual resulting punishment of an aerial/airdodge's landing lag is negated by nihil or something.
 

JayBee

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Sonic doesn't have better camping than G&W.

If Sonic goes in the air, working around G&W's juggling is a chore to get back to the ground. If Sonic goes for the ledge, working around G&W's ledge trap options is a huge chore since he can't edgecamp. If Sonic shields, not getting shield poked by the B-air is a huge chore because B-air ***** shields.

G&W BY FAR BY LIKE A FACTOR OF A MILLION OUTCAMPS SONIC IF HE PLAYS RIGHT. SONIC HAS ZERO GOOD OPTIONS TO G&W'S SHIELD CAMPING.

sigh... AZZOMG, there is a flaw in your ressoning. what you are implying is that if sonic tried to camp Gdubs, then he wouldn't win because for some reason he can make him approach with some ability of his. this is invalid.

We have agreed that if the GW is aggro, he becomes very vulnerable. also spamming aerials is predictable, and GWs risk getting Upsmashed. I dont see any move or tech that Gdubs has that makes the sonic say, "I have to be aggro at him all the time" the reason a match between the two can go so long, is because niether possesses an advantage agaisnt the other from long range. they both must get in close.

If Im playing a campy game and watch, im running around in circles, that's my camping. I also try to force movement with spin cancels, quick steps, and spring dropping, usually from an Spin Dash Roll or Spin Shot, UpB ing away. These are some of the more common methods to root out campers, and it works the same manner if they ledge camp. I can be just as gay with sonic camping as GW can, and again, you're not forceing me, liek a rob or falco could, for example to be mad aggro.

In additon, once an opponent becomes predictable in is OOs options and tendancy to shield grab/ spot dodge, ive seen many a video where the sonic used the running speed to rip the startegy to shreads, and deal massive damage, and/or tech chase/edgegaurd.

Now, if i attempt to be the agressor the whole time, then im probably gonna lose. but that's not how a sonic should play a good GW anyways so that would be shame on me...
 

A2ZOMG

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Yeah...the other reason why Sonic sucks....unlike DDD, he doesn't have anything close to a broken grab game to compensate for his lack of options on shields.

You can get closer to someone while still camping. DDD does this all the time with his shieldcamping (his projectile spam doesn't force approaches that well if you ask me). Eventually once you're close enough, your opponent has to respond to a threat, and that opens them up. So yes, G&W can viably outcamp Sonic at any time.
 

Tenki

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Oh yeah, and Kojin has that "lol i'm not going to approach, you are" mentality, too.

lol DBZ staredown match.
 

Kinzer

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I give up, I take a quick shower and already this.

I'm going to one Hell of a time trying to catch-up... if I can...
 

DMG

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Oh yeah, and Kojin has that "lol i'm not going to approach, you are" mentality, too.

lol DBZ staredown match.
His power level was over 9000, I'd be afraid to approach that too.

:p

Well I'm tired, see you guys later. I got some sleep to catch.

Oh, and can the first character we go over again(after the entire cycle is over) be Wario?
 

Anthinus

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You are very accurate, but I want to comment a bit on your post if you dont mind...

... however which I personally like to run up to and make them hit my shield but throw off their timing since I'm closer then they anticipated and get them with nair or uair/up-b..
What a coincidence! I do the same thing agains G&W (Sonic can get closer faster) but change nair for grab (most common) and the uair can be used or just use *put a large list of punish options here*

GW should never dair while sonic is anywhere near the ground or he eats free damage from grabs. Killing sonic usually happens off the edge as it's almost impossible to hit them with a smash attack when sonic just camps bairs and grabs. GW is pretty good at getting sonic offstage however and has better edgeguarding options then most against him. Sonic also has trouble killing GW, often relying on charged fsmash gimmicks or bair/homing attack edgeguards maybe from a dair offstage.
True, but G&W dair can be effective sometimes. Isn't too hard to come back to stage. For killing G&W I prefer to save Ftilt and Fair all the match to use them to kill him near the edge (If other Sonics haven't tried this, do it guys cuz is great against him). If he doesn't dies, I usually do hugging stuff. Maybe I'll get hit but G&W will die unable to do anything or parachuting down...

Both characters have a lot of options in almost all situations in this match-up. GW is better at recovering and killing however giving him longevity which isn't common in GW match-ups and is a pretty important advantage for him. He has the tools to punish a lot of standard sonic play on reaction. His biggest problem is sonics ability to get grabs in this match-up which leads to easy damage against GW. Sonic also has a hard time gimping GW which is something they can do to a good amount of characters.
They have a lot of options but Sonic have more obviously. I think Sonic pairs with G&W recovery the two have similar adventages and disadventages (and Sonic can recover better from below than G&W and without being punished...)

65-35 or 60-40 in GW's favor.
Don't sounds bad, but isn't accurate in my opinion. 60-40 or 55-45 at G&W.
 

JayBee

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Oh yeah, and Kojin has that "lol i'm not going to approach, you are" mentality, too.

lol DBZ staredown match.
Its not something I start off doing, its something I shift into once i recognize the match's flow, and/or see that my opponent is in camp mode. Moreover, its something sonics can and should do to complement thier normally aggro appraoch, which helps throw off those who are used to the latter. Im not kidding, i've learned that sometimes camping with Springs, empty jumps, and running in small circles is good enough to soften even the campiest dudes.


and to me, camping implies that a character has no choice but to do it in order to somehow gain advantage. which is fine, but dont ask me to come at you if you wont do the same, and i sometimes had to make my self do nothing and watch them camp, until they realize the sonic isn't gonna come. they usually move after a while.
 

Anthinus

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LOL Tenki, thnx! (I didn't knew ASC have that little shield stun... Now I'll use my G&W's up b against it :chuckle:).

This disscution is good. I like how hylian see things, he have an interesting point of view. I can say G&W have adventage of course, but I'm pretty sure isn't above 60-40. IMO against a really good Sonic 55-45 in G&W favor. G&W have range, but a good amount of it is shut down by Sonic's movement+shield+mindgames stuff... What do you think guys? (not A2 :laugh:)

EDIT: Liked that what you said... Pretty solid and true stuff IMO...
 

A2ZOMG

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A really good Sonic vs a really good G&W, this is where the matchup should literally be unwinnable for Sonic if you ask me. <_<

On a low to mid level (and on wifi), it's very easy to punish a lot of G&W's stuff when he doesn't space or shield camp optimally.

It's when G&W starts consistently spacing optimally and shielding to severely limit Sonic's options where Sonic doesn't stand much of a chance. Sonic can sorta keep up in dealing damage, but his options for landing KO moves are almost, if not completely non-existent, whereas this isn't the case at all for G&W.
 

A2ZOMG

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LOL at A2 responding to that anyways.
Ironic how you didn't reply to the guy anyway. Why don't you set a good example? I don't have much to lose since I'm just a lowly member of SWF. You're one of the STAFF.
 

A2ZOMG

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LOL it made me laugh too. Just to see... I'm the only one here that would like to see A2ZOMG's G&W 3 stocked by a Sonic O.o... It dosen't matter how (if was he's bad hair day, Law of Murphy attack, or whatever), but 3 stocked!! :laugh::chuckle::laugh::chuckle::laugh::chuckle::laugh:
That's happened before in friendlies. Don't worry. I've factored it all in.

It was back in that day I would have agreed the matchup was closer, but these days I'm 2stocking most Sonic users.
 

Hylian

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Ironic how you didn't reply to the guy anyway. Why don't you set a good example? I don't have much to lose since I'm just a lowly member of SWF. You're one of the STAFF.
It was just funny because he specifically asked you not to reply to him, yet you did anyways. That's all. He didn't ask me to reply specifically.
 

A2ZOMG

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I must have a different definition of "you guys" than you do. By you guys, he is referring to everyone who has participated in the discussion. Which includes you. Whether or not it's an ultimatum, it's implied clearly.
 

Anthinus

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I was refering everyone except A2 logically. Nothing personal, somehow I think you are a good person (thats the way I think, someone could call me naive but I prefer optimist) but your posts "can't" be disscussed cause your possition is so so hard that you can't hear what a Sonic main with good exp can tell you about him... As you kick Sonics I kick G&Ws (someones r good (hard matches indeed), someones r bad). If you be more mind open like Hylian you could see different points of view and learn interesting stuff.
 

A2ZOMG

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Yeah, to an extent you're right. I know I'm really stubborn about matchups, but don't get me wrong, I'm thinking about these constantly and trying to break it down. It even gets to the point where I'm replaying matches in my sleep. O_o

I probably have spent more time than is healthy observing Sonic....just because I hate playing against him so much.

The good Sonics I play usually KO me for making a really generic dumb spacing mistake that only a good player would notice in the first place, or the KO me because they outpatienced me when I'm playing someone like Ganondorf and repeatedly punished his glaring weaknesses. Sonic has options to punish dumb spacing mistakes....I give him that, but nobody is forcing G&W to make a dumb spacing mistake when he could just air dodge away from Sonic and only be punished with something milder...like a dashgrab or DA. =/
 
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