Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

omegablackmage

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#1
For a specific character match-up discussion, please visit the export thread for that character by clicking on the image of that character.


Quick Summary

:marth: Marth - 35/65
:snake: Snake - 35/65
:metaknight: Metaknight - 40/60
:diddy: Diddy - 40/60


:gw: Game and Watch - 50/50
:dk: Donkey Kong - 50/50
:wario: Wario - 50/50
:zerosuitsamus: Zero Suit Samus - 50/50
:olimar: Olimar - 55/45
:toonlink: Toon Link - 55/45


:dedede: King DeDeDe - 60/40
:ike: Ike - 60/40
:falco: Falco - 60/40
:kirby2: Kirby - 60/40
:wolf: Wolf - 60/40
:ganondorf: Ganondorf - 60/40
:shiek: Sheik - 60/40
:bowser2: Bowser - 60/40
:link2: Link - 60/40
:lucario: Lucario - 60/40
:popo: Ice Climbers - 60/40
:rob: Rob - 65/35
:samus2: Samus - 65/35
:pt: Pokemon Trainer - 65/35
:sonic: Sonic - 65/35
:mario2: Mario - 65/35
:yoshi2: Yoshi - 65/35
:peach: Peach - 65/35
:fox: Fox - 65/35
:pikachu2: Pikachu - 65/35
:pit: Pit - 65/35


:luigi2: Luigi - 70/30
:zelda: Zelda - 70/30
:ness2: Ness - 70/30
:lucas: Lucas - 75/25
:falcon: Captain Falcon - 75/25
:jigglypuff: Jigglypuff - 75/25



Discussions

Discussion for Toon Link begins on post 2:



Toon Link: (55/45)

General Matchup:
  • Toon link has an exceptional projectile game, utilizing arrows, bombs, and boomerangs to get in on GW's range and priority. All of the projectiles are unbucketable.
  • Toon link has a fair amount of priority on some of his attacks, namely his dair and upair. You will find the upair consistently beating your dair, which is one of the main ways GW approaches from the air.
  • Toon Link has an exceptional amount of ways to kill GW. Dsmash and fsmash are strong moves that have particular uses (either good range or speed). Upsmash is the most deadly, allowing toon link to run in quickly and pull out his upsmash, giving this move good range and speed. This move will kill GW quite early, so watch out for it. Up air, when fresh will also kill surprisingly quick.
  • Toon Link's recovery is potentially one of the hardest to gimp in the game. Because he is such a floaty character, he is able to float below the stage very far, use a double jump and then use his up b (with a good priority) to cover incredible distances. This recovery path is the hardest for GW to punish.
  • Other than projectile spamming, and the very risky dair off the stage, toon link is nearly unable to edgeguard GW.
  • Toon Link has an exceptional combo game, making use of his multiple bair chains, grapple setups, projectiles, and uptilts that can rack up quite a bit of damage.
  • GW has no particular problem comboing Toon Link aside from needing to watch out for the occasional high priority aerial.

General Strategies:
  • The best method to beat TL's projectiles are to learn which moves will cancel out projectiles. Dtilt and Bair are the best at canceling most projectiles, even bombs if spaced correctly.
  • Most of gw's approaching attacks (fair, bair, etc) and defensive attacks (dtilt) will be able to out range TL's approaches or defenses.
  • To avoid getting hit by tl's exceptional smashes and kill moves, learn to optimize your spacing. If you can avoid riskily throwing out dairs (gets countered by an up air) and keep your spacing very tight, you shouldn't have too much trouble avoiding the kill moves. If you get hit by the first part of the fsmash or dsmash I believe it is possible to avoid the second hit by smash di'ing the first straight up and then jumping out.
  • Some ways to edgeguard toon link are to learn to edgehog at the right times. If you can keep your invincibility frames as he moves by you, you can punish him by ledgehopping an up air (if the spacing is right), a key as he lands on the ground (pop up for a nair possibly), or a nair (good combo starter). Other options would be to get very aggressive with a fair off the stage or to try to cut through his up b with a dair.
  • To avoid the back air chains against tl, make sure to di away every time.
  • Learn to use the up air well, as it will slow down the dair (allowing room for you to punish tl) and it will usually open up a free smash if you can get under his up b.

Stages:
  • Rainbow Cruise works well as you can maneuver the stage much better than tl and avoid his projectiles quite easily
  • Avoid big open stages like FD, the more platforms, the better
Discussion for Meta Knight begins on post 22:



Meta Knight: (4/6)

General Matchup:
  • Meta Knight is a much faster character than GW in almost every situation. The startup time on his attacks are lower, the ending/landing lag on his attacks are lower, runs/trots faster, and he can glide. All of these factors will probably lead to MK players being able to out maneuver GW's.
  • MK has infinite amount of priority on all of his attacks (except glide attack), however GW will likely have more range than his attacks (in the cases of bair, fair, dtilt) which, since they are disjointed, will cut through. However, moves like ftilt, up b, and fsmash will break this rule.
  • MK's b moves prove to be exceptionally annoying. His mach tornado (neutral b) grants him excessive amounts of priority, maneuverability, and damage dealing ability. His forward b allows him to recover to the stage often unchallenged due to high priority and his up b is incredibly fast and strong while allowing him to glide/glide attack which is also quite strong and difficult to punish.
  • Although usually considered to be bad at landing kills, MK has enough options to give gw trouble. The dsmash is an extremely fast smash attack that, when fresh, can easily kill gw in the early 100's, maybe sooner depending on the situation. The up b and glide attack, when used near the edge, can kill gw very early as well.
  • Other than straight kills, it is also possible for MK's to edgeguard with the dair far off the stage. He can also grab the edge just as you try to up b to it and then use his own up b near the edge to send you back out, which can be difficult to avoid at times.
  • Edgeguarding MK usually involves aggressive use of the up b and forward air off the stage to score quick kills. On some stages it is also possible to stage spike MK with the dash attack near the ledge if they are trying to up from below. Making use of the up air will also help gw to control MK's position. Dairs will go through his up b and the top of his tornado, which can really limit his recovery options if you know what your doing.
  • MK will often be able to combo game and watch a reasonable amount, usually from grab to fair setups, dtilts, up airs, up b's, and even tornado's.
  • GW has no particular problem comboing MK, although it may be easier for him to DI out of your multi-hitting attacks easier because he has a smaller frame. Dthrow to dsmash has to be teched to be avoided, and since his tech rolls and buffer rolls aren't amazingly long, tech chasing mk shouldn't be too hard. Also, his air movement might seem good, but thats only because he has a lot of jumps, use up airs to pressure him when hes above you and force him into the position you want him to be in.

General Strategies:
  • Keep in mind that MK has no projectiles to force you into an aggressive stance. He will usually have to come to you, which, if you make good use of moves like the dtilt, will put him in a bad position.
  • If a MK player begins to spam the tornado often, there are a lot of options. Moves such as the dash attack, forward smash, down smash, and back air are known to be able to take MK out of the tornado from the side if used correctly. The dair will always hit him out of it from above. If you up b right next to MK then you can pop him way up into the air forcing him to be in freefall animation, which should allow him to be punished with a smash. If you get caught in the tornado you can either mash up b (this will shoot him way up about half the time) or try to di upwards out of it and then air dodge.
  • Remember that you have more range and priority with your fair, bair, and dair when battling him in the air, which you should use to your advantage when encountering him here.
  • On the ground, most MK players will approach with dash attacks or dash grabs, both of which are very quick. This can be countered by the even faster dtilt, which will knock them away to be chased for a dash attack or a grab even.
  • Learn to combo with the neutral air and up b will as this will rack up a lot of much needed damage in the matchup. Also, the downthrow to dsmash combo will often work if they don't tech, and if they do learn to chase with an up smash, which will kill quite early.
  • Up air their recovery attempts, tornado, forward b, or down b in the air. This will put them in awful situations that usually end in well charged smashes.
  • Learn the situations that meta knight players are likely to dsmash in. This is the move you need to avoid the most. Usually they will do it after glide attack canceling, when they think they can hit your shield and not be punished, or they will begin to use it a lot as your percent rises. Keep an eye out for it as it can kill very early.
  • When recovering, you have two options generally, high or low. High will usually give you the best results v mk, yeah you might take a hit, but the odds of getting gimped are pretty low. If you go low, you have a better chance of not taking any damage at all, but also you could get gimped and lose a stock. Different mk's give different results, try both and see what your opponent does.
  • Only challenge the glide attack with a back air, as its the only move that will work consistently against it. It looks very predictable, but that doesn't mean a fsmash will go through it. GW players will find themselves dieing very early from this move if they challenge it the wrong way as its quite strong.

Stages:
  • Corneria, if on, will work well as it has a short ceiling (gw has more upward killing attacks than mk) and you can fin camp/infinite as well. Stay in the middle if you need to avoid getting killed and your at high percents. Green greens also can work in your favor, yielding early kills if you play in the middle section. Unfortunately, these stages are usually banned. Other suggestable stages are halberd, again for the short ceiling.
  • Personal preference is a very big deal here. Work on the stages that you feel the most comfortable on as GW and MK will often look for the same things in stages.
  • Avoid stages with enclosed areas like Luigi's Mansion as the tornado become quite annoying here.
Discussion for snake begins on post 60:



Snake: (4/6)

General Matchup:
  • Snake is a well built killing machine, having a large variety of moves that can strike gw's light weight frame down quickly. The up tilt and up air will have no problem killing gw vertically at 80%, the ftilt, nair, bair, dair, and jab combo will also kill pretty quickly.
  • Snake is also built with many projectiles at his disposal. Most notably the grenades and mortars, but the nikita, c4, and proxy mine can have you dodging around the stage more than focusing on snake.
  • Snake has a good amount of range to a lot of his attacks, mainly the ftilt and uptilt, but you will find his aerials and other tilts can be a very large pain to gw, usually matching his own range.
  • Snake's recovery is one of the more interesting one's in the game. It has only a certain amount of super armor when he is rising with his cypher, so only aerials with strong knockback like the fair and key will knock him out. Even with the pseudo super armor, this is where you will find you can hurt snake the most.
  • Other than trying to tossing fast-falling bairs at you when recovering, snake doesn't have a lot of options to gimp you as most of his projectiles are nullified by up b's.
  • Snake is a character with poor movement based combos. You will rarely see him chain multiple moves together across the stage. However, he is good at close combat combos that don't move you anywhere but rack up serious damage. By utilizing the first to jabs, ftilt knee, grab to dthrow he can very quickly rack up the 80 damage he needs to kill you with an up tilt, VERY devastating to gw's survival.
  • Due to snake falling fairly quickly, nair combos, up air combos, and the other usual combos work just fine. Snake also doesn't have a quick aerials to interrupt things : )

General Strategies:
  • At all costs, avoid being in close combat with snake unless you are POSITIVE you can get a grab, otherwise it isn't worth it. Because what I mentioned above about his close combat combos, you will find yourself dying quickly if you stay too close. And if you can get a grab to dthrow in, keep in mind that snake's tech roll is one of the longest in the game.
  • Snake is pegged out to have an amazing keep away game, but personally i think its pretty overrated. Grenades are nice, but for the most part are quite easy to avoid. Most snakes fall into the habit of using their mortar slide at a certain distance, so learn to set that distance up and start charging f smashes.
  • Because snake has some projectiles to pressure you, and an amazing close combat game, you need to learn to dominate this middle ground in between the two. You have to be too far for them to mortar slide and too close for tilts or jabs to reach. This is where you have to shine. Learn how to punish with the turtle and dtilt at this range to pressure him. When shielding an ftilt with your back to him you can sh and bair and hit him before he gets his sheild up. Some might use the bacon when in this range, but i feel as though the move is too laggy to bother with.
  • When edgeguarding snake learn how to deal with each type of situation. If he up b's close to the stage, grab him or his cypher and don't throw or hit him and he'll die (can't use his up b again). If he recovers low but too far to grab learn to use your dair spike to send him back down (don't forget to slowfall it). If he recovers mid range, then use a strong fair or a forward b (hammers 4-9 knock him out) to give some damage and send him back out). If he recovers too high then you have two options. You can up air him to make him use a laggy aerial and then punish. Or you can wait for an air dodge out of the up b and then up b yourself to send him back out. All of these tactics should cover whatever he does to recover. If he does need to c4 to recover, go out over him and have a fair waiting for him to potentially kill him.
  • Dtilt will clank with all of snakes attacks, but his tilts are a few frames faster than the dtilt comes out again so either roll away or run away after this happens. I've found that most of your aerials will cancel out snakes if spaced properly. So learn to keep snake in the air if you can, because you can dominate him very easily here.
  • If you land behind him with a key through a mortar (it goes through it) you can usually get your shield up faster than he can ftilt you. Watch out though in case then mix it up and try to grab you. You also need to get good at watching out for when he pulls grenades out and then shields, this also applies for when you bair him. If you have good enough spacing control you can avoid hitting the grenade.
  • Snakes hate the up air as they can't move through the air very fast, very good for getting punishing smashes off.
  • Learn to make good use of your smashes and keep them fresh, because having a snake at 180 percent can be depressing and demoralizing.

Stages:
  • Any stage that moves a lot or has recovery hazards are excellent choice. GW has superior movement and recovery in every way so make use of it. Stages like rainbow cruise (lot of moving around and recovering), frigate orpheon (missing ledges, flipping stage), delphino (stage changes, dtilt locks), and norfair (hazards to put him in the air, not a lot of room to mortar slide/grenade, can get under him for pressure nairs) are all good stages for playing against snake.
  • Avoid stages with either low ceilings or incredibly large boundaries. Stages like pictochat, halberd, and hanenbow seem to come in mind. They either can get really low percent kills here or can use the stage to camp or survive well.
Discussion for Marth begins on post 91,1375:



Marth: (4/6)

General Matchup:

  • Marth plays a very interesting defensive/offensive game vs gw. Capable of punishing poorly spaced aerials, countering, and rushing with good priority, decent ranged attacks make marth very capable of dealing with game and watch's approaches.
  • In most cases, marth can outrange your ranged attacks. Approach moves like the turtle, fair, and even dtilt or key can be countered with them up b'ing out of shield, countering, or using their dtilt spaced well. Always keep in mind that marth is capable of shutting down your approaches and even your defensive tactics if they play right.
  • Marth's kill moves are his smashes and uptilt/upair and can hurt alot when tippered. Because marth's range has been reduced in this game, it has become a lot harder for him to land fsmash kills etc, so he isn't as much of a killing machine as he was in the last game. If the marth player is good at setting up tippers, don't be surprised to be killed around 100%.
  • His recovery is both bad and good at the same time. His up b has a very high amount of priority and invincibility frames that makes it very difficult to punish, however when knocked far away off the stage, i think he dies much more frequently than high tiered characters. Make use of weak fairs and bacon thrown offstage to clutter their recovery path and go for a gimp if possible. Also ff'd nairs can drag them down as well. If you hog them and they do an early up b, up air them when they are above you to keep them in their freefall animation and try to land a free smash.
  • The only way that marth can edgeguard gw is to drop really low off the stage and try to land a fair, which, because gw's up b has a lot of priority, he shouldn't have a hard time dropping a bit lower than marth can go and just up b through him.
  • Marth is one of the better combo'ers we've seen in this matchup thread. Fair chains, tilts, forward b and other moves help him to string together high damage combos.
  • Overall I would agree to liken marth to metaknight in a lot of ways. Range is slightly to be desired, good priority, great speed on moves and movement, etc. He's a very quick character than can put a lot of pressure on gw.

General Strategies:

  • When approaching marth, make sure that your aerials have their maximum spacing and that you don't leave yourself open afterwards. Against most other characters you have some room to be sloppy because the turtle has a lot of range, a lot more than most characters can handle, however if you space the turtle incorrectly, you'll be eating an up b (tippered most likely) because it has invincibility frames.
  • Because marth has no projectile game, he has no way to force you to approach him, so i wouldn't be surprised if more gw players begin to play more campy against marths, ie forcing them to approach and then punishing based on that. Retreating bairs and dtilts can be extremely difficult for marth to get around, however it isn't impossible.
  • To edgeguard marth, you can try to get a quick fair off on him, but you'll have to do it farther than he can up b to the ledge, as the up b will always go through your fair, so if he's close enough, he'll just up b if he thinks your going to try and intercept him. If not that you can try to grab the ledge to hog, or if he goes above you try to space a ledgehopped up air to push him up off the ground and keep him from landing. He seems to have pretty poor aerial di after the up b so you get a free smash off from this, works very well.
  • Learn to watch for the counter against marth. If you make too much of a pattern with your turtle/fair approaches he'll be able to counter it pretty easily as the moves stay out for a while. Empty short hops work great if you think your falling into a patter and you think your opponent might start countering.
  • Another serious threat to watch out for is the neutral b shield breaker. Against anyone this move can be devastating. Common setups for shield breaks are sh fair to shield break and i've seen combinations of forward b's to shield breaks. These setups aren't the only times that he can do it though, anytime he thinks your shield will stay up he could use it so watch out. Even if he doesn't break your shield, it will still be low allowing for shield pokes.
  • The last big pain in gw's side would b the forward b combo. As far as i know this move comes out in 4 frames, making it one of the faster moves in the game for its damage output. Great out of shield for marth, great to move away from turtles and then move in with a quick sword dance to punish. Be aware of how quick it is. It can also rack up a lot of damage, try to always di away from all of the hits, never in or down as you'll just eat all of the hits.

Stages:

  • Imo, all of the stages that have worked in the past should work fine here too. Once again gw has more mobility than marth so stages like rainbow cruise etc will work great.
  • Try to avoid stages that give marth alot of platform use as he is probably better at optimizing platforms than you are. Stages like norfair and lylat cruise should be avoided.
Discussion for Donkey Kong begins on post 126:



Donkey Kong: (5/5)

General Matchup:

  • Donkey Kong's major strong suits are his weight, power, and range. He'll be using all of these to their maximum extent to take you down so learn how to get around them or to cope with them.
  • DK's priority is pretty well matched up with his range. Most of his attacks aren't disjointed like gw's are however, which will allow you to win in most cases. If your attacks collide, either expect to win or for them to cancel out. The only time dk will hit you through your attack is if he has invincibility frames, super armor frames, or he simply went around your hitbox somehow.
  • DK's power is nearly unmatched in this game. Only characters like ike and ganon can really compete in terms of strength, although not even close in speed. DK is loaded with kill moves that can strike gw down in the early 70's, even 60's depending on placement. Downsmash and neutral b are probably the most devastating ones. Downsmash is quite good because it is extremely fast out of the shield, hitting above him in what seems like just a few frames. This move kills upward in the 70's for gw, and has a surprising amount of range. The neutral b, when charged, gets SA frames, which can really throw off how you approach DK. A fair that looks like a free hit will turn into an early demise if you aren't careful. Other kill moves of note are fsmash (really incredible forward range), upsmash (good range, fairly quick), up air and bair sometimes (although usually used a lot so not often killed with).
  • Dk's recovery looks pretty terrible at a glance, but upon further inspection, its not half bad. Im pretty sure that the first 10 frames or so of the move grant invincibility frames, the move hits a lot for a lot of damage, covers more vertical distance than in melee, can cancel well for combos near the stage. Dair from above will def knock him out, but good spacing w/ the fair and bair will be needed.
  • Dk's edgeguarding usually involves aggressive bairs, or up b's that are started off the stage and then maneuvered in. Both of these would require dk not to go too far down, which means your in the clear for most situations.
  • Dk's combo game is somewhat lacking, although thats not where he specializes. It isn't too unusual to see some nifty bair combos, up air combos, although these will be harder for DK to unleash on gw because he is so small.
  • Dk has a large frame, is fairly heavy, fun combos : )

General Strategies:

  • Your biggest problem in this matchup will be competing for the range. Ftilt, fsmash, bair, dtilt, and down b all have enormous ranges that match yours. You'll find yourself keeping your spacing tight if you want to land hits to start combo's up. If the dk plays right they'll be able to punish you for messing any of your spacing up w/ down b's and the works.
  • The second biggest problem? winning the percent game. In order to beat dk's you need to minimize the amount of damage you take, and maximize theirs. This seems obvious to beat any character, but because the weight gap between the two characters is much larger than most matchups, this because quite the issue. He'll be killing you in the 70's, you'll be killing him in the 110's most likely. Theres a good 40% you need to make up on every stock, putting you at a disadvantage, keep that in mind.
  • If your opponent is very precise with the neutral b's SA frames, then you could be in a lot of trouble. When he has his punch charged up, you need to avoid approaching mindlessly, no matter how good your spacing is. Learn to empty your shuffles into grabs, or learn to air dodge through him into grabs to keep them on their feet. If they think theres a good chance that you'll drop in for a grab, then they won't be so eager to throw the donkey punch around.
  • Whenever possible, learn to keep the match controlled in the air. GW's aerials will blow dk's out of the water in almost every situtation. Bair is the only real pain, only because its so fast and has so much range. Fair, nair, dair, and up air either don't have enough range, have no priority, or are too slow to compete with gw's aerials.
  • Although i've been raving about Dk's speed, don't compare the two. GW is miles ahead of dk's speed, i just don't want you to underestimate how fast dk can be. Learn to use your superior aerial mobility to weave in and out of dk's range to score hits and combos.
  • Make good use of the chef in this matchup, especially when dealing with a fully charged donkey punch. Chef will cancel out his approaches, he's huge, so he can't just avoid them.
  • Best thing to do against a recovering dk is to try and get as much damage in as possible. He's pretty difficult to gimp, so settle for racking up that extra damage you'll need to kill him. Fair/bair/dair should all knock him out with proper spacing.

Stages:

  • Moving stage = huge advantage. Take him to rainbow cruise, place has a lot of vertical movement, lots of places for him to die. Frigate orpheon would also work really well i imagine.
  • Avoid stages with small boundaries as you'll die way to early here to make a dent on the DK. Also, if your teching game isn't spot on, stages with lips could pose a problem as well. Any stage with a walk-off ledge may also want to be avoided because of the cargo throw setups he can utilize.
Discussion for Diddy Kong begins on post 149:



Diddy Kong: (4/6)

General Matchup:

  • Diddy’s bananas are the focal point of his game. He will be using them to control the stage, combo with them (yes, actual combos), and for mind game purposes. What really makes things incredibly frustrating is that the bananas will go through ALL of G&W attacks, including Dtilt, Bair and Up B (when you’re not invincible). This can give G&W major problems with approaching because he relies on his fortress of priority to pierce through stuff.
  • However, when you look at Diddy’s other attacks, they pale in comparison to G&W’s high priority, disjointed, lingering attacks.
  • G&W is pretty screwed if he gets caught in bananas. His get-up attack is mediocre and his roll is bad. An expert Diddy player will have no problem at all following up a trip with his amazing Dash into more attacks, or more banana tripping suckage for G&W.
  • As bad as this all sounds, Diddy has one major flaw: he is one of the worst characters in the game when it comes to killing. His main kill options are Fsmash, Dsmash, and Fair. Diddy must keep these moves fresh at all times or he won’t be killing G&W until the 160-170 range. Even with fresh kill moves, Diddy STILL has problems killing G&W unless he’s right on the edge of the stage. There is nothing more demoralizing for Diddy than G&W surviving a fresh Fsmash at 130% and recovering with ease.
  • Diddy is very lightweight (not featherweight like G&W obviously). He dies very quickly to G&W’s smashes and Fair. When you compare percentages at which both characters kill each other, G&W has a huge advantage over Diddy without question.
  • GW is one of the worst characters in the game at dealing with bananas because he has to be very close to pick them up, has a very slow dash attack to move through them, and has a very hard to perform glide toss.

General Strategies:

  • Pay a lot of attention to where the bananas are at all times. Don’t just approach normally. Use shield cancelled dashes, air dodges, and Up B to bait banana tossing. You don’t want Diddy getting you in a nasty combo if you get tripped by a banana.
  • Pressure Diddy as much as you can. Don’t let him set up his bananas uncontested. It is almost as bad as letting Snake plant his mines, C4, grenades and mortarslide around everywhere. If you can successfully put pressure on Diddy and keep him from fully utilizing bananas, you’ll make this matchup a hell of a lot easier. Use a lot of autocancelled nairs to keep a lot of pressure on diddy when he doesn't have his bananas out.
  • If you’re knocked offstage, Diddy is more than likely going to go for a spike/gimp on you. If he tries to spike you (either with his Dair or the jetpack), Uair him to get Diddy off of you. If he attempts to do his teabagging grab (side B), Up B to get out of trouble and blowing him away.
  • Stay in the air. G&W’s aerials flat out dominate Diddy’s aerials. Don’t get me wrong, Diddy has great aerials, but they don’t match up to G&W’s massive disjointed hitboxes. The other big reason to stay in the air is so you don’t trip like you would on the ground.
  • If you manage to pick up a banana, abuse G&W’s glide toss as much as you can. G&W’s glide toss is absolutely ridiculous, allowing him to traverse almost halfway across Final Destination. Glide toss into *move* is great stuff. Just remember where the other banana is or you could slide right into it.
  • Diddy is in trouble if he’s off the stage with G&W. Without a place to use his bananas, Diddy’s options are severely limited. Fair is great at hitting him back off the stage. Diddy has his Side B to give him a decent boost sideways, but his Up B must be charged if he’s going to get back. Make sure you don’t waste your invincibility frames while on the ledge because the jetpack blast stage spikes. If Diddy overshoots the ledge, he’ll be open for punishment.
  • One of gw's biggest assets in this match is the up b. If you find yourself in a lot of banana pressure, up b to either get up to a platform quickly or to just get in the air to get an aerial approach going. Always remember that being on the ground vs. diddy is a very bad idea.

Stages:

  • Maps that have lots of aerial fighting and with few opportunities for Diddy to set up his bananas are the best stages. Rainbow Cruise fits the bill perfectly; most of the fighting is in the air, and the constantly scrolling stage limits Diddy’s banana game.
  • Avoid linear stages where Diddy can easily set up bananas and easily do craploads of damage on you. Final Destination would be a very good example; the flat surface gives Diddy tons of room for him to operate, and it gives G&W not so many options to approach Diddy when he has his bananas set up.
Discussion for Olimar begins on post 161:



Olimar: (55/45)

General Matchup:

  • Olimar's claim to fame is his ability to force his opponent to approach him by throwing the pikmin onto his opponent. This can quickly rack up a lot of damage if the pikmin go uncontested and can easily assist olimar into landing very early kills.
  • Olimar's most frequent kill move is the upsmash. Its his fastest smash, is the strongest (for killing gw), and is the easiest to setup. It has a decent sized hitbox in front of him allowing for it to be used almost like a second forward smash. When at higher percents, purple pikmin can really hurt in the form of fairs/bairs and fsmashes. Also watch out for his back/up grab kills which, especially if blue/purple pikmin are used, can hurt pretty early on.
  • Olimar's recovery is potentially one of the worst in the game, which isn't news to most people. GW's ability to gimp this recovery is readily available through the use of his quick disjointed tilts and aerials.
  • Because olimar is so bad off of the stage, you won't find olimars edgeguarding you too often. If they do try, go very low and you shouldn't have much trouble avoiding them.
  • Olimar's combo game mostly revolves around him landing grabs. A down throw can very easily set up to a dashing up smash (and then up airs and even an up b maybe) or another dash grab. Although mostly overlooked, falling nairs to uptilts/upsmashes and then up airs can also rack up a lot of damage too.
  • GW's combos on olimar don't look too different compared to most other characters. Olimar has super armor frames in the down b whistle attack, which could help him to power through some of your single hitting attacks and then make a quick counterattack. Down throw to dsmash works unless they tech per usual (olimar can't buffer a roll fast enough). Also, olimar has a hard time dealing with up air pressuring from below, considering his slow down air and lack of momentum shifting moves.

General Strategies:

  • The most imporant thing in this match to keep in mind is to always be nullifying his attempts to land sneak damage. If he gets distance, he'll probably start chucking pikmin, which you should always dtilt or nair away.
  • Try your best to keep olimar in the air. His best moves are done on the ground, so having him in the air takes away his best attributes. His aerials have low priority/range so you should be mostly uncontested.
  • The dtilt will go through all of olimar's approaches except for the grab. Even the fsmash is trounced by the mighty dtilt. Because olimar's aerials have poor range you will find yourself beating him almost all the time (olimar's up air will go through the key about half the time, keep this in mind). Use the dtilt to push olimar to the edge of the stage, where he doesn't want to be. This puts him in a bad position, either go in the air to get around you back to the middle, or offstage trying to counter an attack, both of which can hurt oli.
  • Olimar players are very used to using the upward priority of their upsmash to ward off opponents approaching from above. The key will always go through the upsmash, and most of the time you can catch the olimar off guard. However, the up air goes through your key, so watch the olimar player carefully.
  • Most of your kills will be landed through tech chases from the dsmash, random smashes you might be able to set up, but mostly through gimps. Learn to take away the olimar's double jump whenever they use it thought up b's/fairs/bairs/keys/dtilts. Once their jump is gone just hog the edge and get ready to tech/roll to the stage. Never go back onto the stage until you are absolutely sure he is dead, the up b reaches farther than you think.
  • If spaced correctly, the turtle can outreach the standing grab from olimar, however if they dash away and then back he will likely grab you. Try to avoid using fairs on their shield as the grab will usually punish you. Make good use of nairs and dodge to grabs from the air to approach. Any grab landed will likely end in a smash, and the nair will probably catch them and pop them up for further combo'ing.
  • I've heard rumors that the standing grab will reach below the stage, and has the potential to grab you out of your up b. If this does happen, then you will lose your stock as you are unable to up b after someone grabs you out of it. If this is true, the timing would be quite difficult I imagine, so just keep in mind although i don't think you will see it very often.

Stages:

  • Any stage with reduced amounts of ledges, or moving stages really hurt olimar a lot. Stages like rainbow cruise and frigate orpheon come to mind.
  • Avoid stages with excessive amounts of ledges, like norfair. This makes it almost impossible for you to edgehog them on a stage like this makes the battle quite a bit harder.
Discussion for Zero Suit Samus begins on post 192: (credit to cutter for the bulk of this summary)



ZSS (50/50):

General Matchup:

  • ZSS’s strengths lie in her massive range on some moves and speed on others. She has actual combo setups thanks to moves like Neutral B and Dsmash paralyzing you. She is very quick on the ground and also mobile in the air. Alot of her long range attacks have priority that even gw can't cut through. You will have a hard time moving through the up b, upsmash, forward smash, and the forward b.
  • ZSS doesn’t really have problems with killing even though she has only two real good moves at accomplishing that: Side B and Uair. In particular the Side B is a very powerful kill move when it’s fresh; it has massive range, and the whole move will drag you into the sweetspot. If unused during the battle, the bair is also an incredible kill move. If you get hit by the dsmash at high percents, bairs can hurt a lot.
  • ZSS also has access to powerful items at her disposal thanks to her armor parts at the beginning of the game. They can serve to pile on damage or give ZSS another possible kill move.
  • Unfortunately for ZSS, her paralyzer setups with Neutral B and Dsmash are nullified by the bucket, which will result in 0-death depending on what was absorbed. This takes away one of her best attributes in setting up true combos.
  • ZSS has an incredible combo game that is not to be taken lightly. Dash attack, jabs, upsmash, up air, up b, downsmash, dtilt, all link well together in some way, and there are probably more odd moves that they could throw in there. If you are unexperienced or not careful, you'll see very powerful combos that will have you at kill percents in no time.
  • ZSS is a lightweight and will not be able to take much punishment from G&W. To make matters worse for her, she has a tether recovery that can be easily gimped; which puts another huge blow on her survivability.

General Strategies:

  • Don’t approach ZSS in a direct horizontal or vertical line. She’ll have an Fsmash, Side B, grab, or armor pieces waiting for horizontal approaches and Usmash, Up B, and armor pieces against vertical approaches. As powerful and rangy these moves are, they don’t cover diagonals or from below. This is where you want to approach from.
  • Turtle dancing diagonally and Nair through platforms all at an angle really help to get around ZSS’s rangy attacks. Don’t forget Up B as well; ZSS has no real good move when you’re below her.
  • Her Dair is a stall ’n fall like G&W’s but it is not disjointed, it has less priority, and it has awful cooldown time when she lands. G&W’s Uair completely shuts down ZSS’s Dair and allows you to control the match because again, she is helpless against Uair and has to resort to airdodging/DIing allowing you to force her hand.
  • Don't be foreign to the combos that zss has at her disposal. Dash attack can be canceled very quickly into an uptilt which can combo into a lot of aerials from there. Her jab is incredibly difficult to punish as there is very little startup/cooldown to it. Also keep in mind that her grab has a lot of cooldown, yes, but also will distroy bad turtle approaches simply due to range.
  • Obviously bucket her neutral B and Dsmash. Being able to annul two amazing setup moves can limit ZSS’s options at racking up damage. Try to bait her into using the projectile when you can at low percents. Her upsmash doesn't do a lot of damage, so the only move you really need to worry about is the forward b. IMO, it is well worth taking the forward b to potentially take her last stock w/o any effort.
  • ZSS is a prime target for Dsmash, which kills her very quickly when tippered. She’s also in huge trouble if she gets knocked off the stage by a sourspotted Dsmash because of the angle it sends her at.
  • When the match begins, i prefer to just camp on the ledge. The armor pieces will disappear based on how long they sit on the ground, so this will effectively eliminate two of the pieces because she can only hold one at a time. When on the ledge they usually will bounce the piece near the edge, or throw it down at you, which you can up b through. The idea is to take this innate, 1 stock advantage she has away by simply camping at the beginning.

Stage Selection

  • Pick stages that have many platforms so you can approach ZSS at different angles and get around her huge-ranged attacks. Battlefield works well because of the platforms, and Rainbow Cruise appears to be a fantastic counterpick like usual. Frigate Orpheon also seems to be a viable counterpick stage as well because of the lack of ledges for ZSS’s tether recovery.
  • Avoid linear stages like Final Destination that limit the amount of ways you can approach at. It is also advisable to stay away from stages like Norfair that have many edges for ZSS to latch on to with her tether.
Discussion for Wolf begins on post 216:



Wolf: (6/4)

General Matchup:

  • Wolf is really known for having exceptional range on certain attacks and having quirky aspects that can make him difficult to deal with.
  • Wolf's priority seems to be average, none of his attacks being disjointed as far as i know except for his blaster. The fsmash is really one if his few moves that will be outranging you.
  • Wolf's kill potential is very much based on the player using him. Wolf can kill very easily with the dsmash, fsmash, bair, and maybe even upsmash/fair depending on how much the moves are used. Most wolf players will use the fsmash a lot for spacing and approaching purposes, not to mention the move can be easily di'd out of. The bair is also used often for aerial approaches but still can be used to kill near the edge even when weak. Dsmash will probably be his kill move 75% of the time.
  • It is no secret that wolf's recovery is not good, being that it is very one tracked and interruptable. Gw's aerials all can cut through the wolf coming back and put him in a worse position than before.
  • Most wolf players will make use of their blaster at mid range to keep pressure on you. This move is bucketable, but watch out for counters on their part when you bucket this.
  • Wolf has a very limited combo game in my experience. Mostly his game revolves around quick pot shots that might get you off the edge or blaster spamming to rack up damage and then land a kill move.
  • Wolf is a pretty heavy character, expect no problems juggling him in the air. Also he can buffer rolls out of your dthrow, so you'll have to tech chase him.
  • Wolf's edgeguarding tactics usually revolve around timed back airs, but you can recover so low that i wouldn't worry about it.

General Strategies:

  • When approaching wolf the biggest thing you have to worry about are getting around the blaster shots, and the fsmash. Landing spaced aerials on his sheild may not always be a good idea as the fsmash might be able to reach you after you land. Also, if they are expecting it, they can walk out of your range and then fsmash after you land as they'll be able to slip in.
  • Blaster spam. If they're across the stage using it, don't be afraid to bucket it at lower percents. If your at the blaster's maximum range, wolf will have a hard time reaching you before the lag is up. If your at mid range (where most wolf's will abuse it) you can try to bucket at lower percents and take a smash hit. If you can get two (and they stop using projectiles, big plus) or the three (its a free last stock if you hit them with it) you should be able to punish them enough for the blastering.
  • Although i don't have much experience edgeguarding wolf, i can't imagine why most of your aerials won't go through the side b and up b. Just try to control which one he has to use so you can know what to expect. If he can, i would think most wolf's would use the side b because its faster and can spike you. Try to force them into using their up b from below and drop a weak fair to interrupt these moves.
  • Keep in mind that wolf can move pretty fast and far with his boosted upsmash. This can definitely be used as a surprise tactic at any time or to even punish you for things like bucketing.
  • Other than the points made above, wolf is a pretty average character. Has a decent amount of speed to compete, but not nearly enough range in most cases, so don't expect to be challenged that often.

Stages:

  • Per usual, make your move to rainbow cruise or frigate orpheon to punish his bad recovery. Also i imagine halberd and delphino would make it more difficult than normal to recover.
  • They'll probably go to neutrals against you to avoid bad recovering situations, there isn't a specific counterpick stage that i can think of that they would take you to.
Discussion for Falco begins on post 256:



Falco: (6:4)

General Matchup:
  • Falco's largest assets are in his chaingrab and follow ups from that, and his very controlling laser game. He also has a solid edgeguard game, along with a very high priority reflector.
  • Aside from the lasers and reflector, his range and priority are pretty run of the mill. You will find that in most situations you will outrange/prioritze falco.
  • His best kill moves are his fsmash, upsmash, bair, and dsmash. These moves don't have any particular set ups other than boosted upsmashes, so the usage of these moves might be seen from far away.
  • His combos are usually in the form of grabs, a grab at 0% will lead to a good 50 damage assuming your not near the edge, and even then a reverse boost grab would nullify that problem. Dash attacks to upsmashes are pretty deadly and lasers can stun you to get hit by other moves if he's close.
  • Falco's edge guarding usually takes the form of him trying to either spike you or sneak a strong back air in, both are quite deadly. Chaingrab to spike won't kill you (your up b goes too far) but will certainly put you in a bad situation, and the bair won't outrange you, but is quite fast and can kill early when fresh.
  • To edgeguard falco, throw a bair out when you think a forward b is coming, or try to predict where he will land and smash. If he has to up b, light hits from fairs work very well to drop his height along with nairs.
  • GW's combos work pretty well against falco, he falls fast which is very nice for nair chains, and his aerial movment is only average which makes him quite susceptible to up air chains. Also, dthrow to dsmash works very nicely if they don't tech.

General Strategies:
  • If the falco laser spams a lot, you know what to do, stand and bucket. When spamming, they usually throw two lasers out, both of which can be caught when on the ground I believe. Also, if you duck, he can't hit you with a laser unless its from the ledge.
  • If you want to avoid the chaingrab, the best advice i can give you is to use your range well enough to avoid getting grabbed. When in the grab just don't panic, because he can't spike you and kill you, you can always recover. If he dash attacks to upsmash at the end try to smash di the dash attack to jump out of the upsmash and save yourself some damage. If he spikes you make sure to tech.
  • I don't see this too often from any falco's, but he does have a guaranteed laser lock combo on gw. At low percents he can footstool you out of a dthrow and then land on you with a spike. He will then immediately start lasering you because you've been stunned too long. Certainly something to look out for.
  • If they try to use the reflector to beat your range, remember that it has a crazy amount of cooldown, and he's really only safe if he hits you with it, otherwise note that a free smash is ensured.
  • Laser baits (for your bucket) are a trick some falco's use to get free smashes in, if you think this might be the case either only bucket at low percents or when your far away. If you do fill your bucket, dthrow and tech chase is amazing because the bucket comes out so fast and has a lot of range.

Stages:
  • Rainbow cruise, frigate, etc work well against his terrible vertical recovery.
  • Avoid jungle japes (forward b tricks) and final d (lots of laser room).
Discussion for Wario begins on post 268:



Wario: (50/50)

General Matchup:
  • Wario's biggest asset is his incredible air speed/movement coupled with a good short hop. This allows him to move back and fourth through the air simliar to jigglypuff in melee to either bait attacks or to slip in through openings quickly to stike the opponent or land a grab.
  • Despite his famous characteristic of being fat, wario has quite a bit of speed to his attacks. His aerials in general are all very fast and can start some very devastating combos.
  • Wario doesn't have very much range on his moves, or too much priority, thus gw will almost always beat him in that department.
  • Wario has a pretty good assortment of reliable, stong, and fast kill moves. First off, the fart. It can be either half charged or full charged for effective use. When full charged it does something like 40 damage with pretty decent knockback (110 seconds (slightly less than 2 minutes)) and when half charged it does less damage but quite a bit more knockback that can kill really early (55 seconds (bit less than a minute)). His other kill moves are his up air (very strong when fresh), and his forward smash (this move has SA frames, so watch out).
  • Wario's recovery is very interesting to say the least. He has the bike, bike jump, double jump, up b, and even farts to recover. This allows him to change his recovery path almost every time he comes back to make him hard to edgeguard.
  • Wario's edgeguarding usually consists of fairs off the stage for gimps on some characters, but it is likely that unless he suicide bites you, you won't be getting edgeguarded.
  • Wario's combos are usually combinations of nairs, dairs, bites, boosted upsmashes, up airs, sometimes fairs, and farts/fsmashes for finishers. Become familiar with the ranges on the moves and the proper way to di out of these attacks to minimize the damage you take.
  • Gw's combos will probably be simliar to other characters, except take note that up air combos will be minimized because he can move through the air faster than you, thus escaping the upair chains.

General Strategies:
  • Edgeguarding is best done by trying to fair to interrupt key moves. If you see him get on his bike and he's near you (probably a mistake on the wario's part) make sure to keep a fair out directly above him for when he jumps. Also, take note that wario cannot auto sweetspot the ledge, so make sure you either dsmash or dtilt to hit him out if they miss.
  • Make sure that when you approach with aerials, you keep your max range up. It isn't as precise as needed for marth or metaknight, but you need to avoid getting bitten or fsmashed from his SA.
  • Watch out for wario's amazing sheild pressure game. It is very possible (especially since gw's grab isn't very long) for them to dair on your shield and then back off too far for you to grab. If you find that wario is pressuring your shield too much, make good use of your up b out of shield before he gets to you to relocate.
  • Wario players will usually admit that his range is his worst asset, thus this needs to be abused to full capacity. Approach with good spacing while he's in the air and you will beat him often.
  • Going for the kill can be quite difficult to do since he can move so fluently in the air. If you think you can get away with it, randomly smashing at times you normally wouldn't could certainly score a kill now and again. Be sure not to spam your smashes when its time to kill, he will punish you hard for this and rack up damage quickly. Up smash does particularly well because wario doesn't have any excessive range to punish you with.
  • When grabbing make sure to mix it up between upward throws and dthrows. Wario isn't particularly easy to tech chase, however he also is hard to chase in the air with up throw to up air, so use both and see which gives better results.
  • When he dthrows, make sure that you vary your pattern frequently. They usually expect you to roll into, shield, or to spot dodge. I think rolling away and up b are much safer options, just make sure to mix it up enough.
  • Watch out for the boosted upsmash. Wario can cover a lot of ground very quickly with this, so it can throw anyone off. This move and the dair can be smash di'd out of try to make use of that.

Stages:
  • Moving stages and stages with missing ledges work wonders as usual. Rainbow cruise, frigate, etc work well.
  • Wario works pretty well on neutrals, stages with low ceilings could work against you like corneria, up to you and your comfort level on that stage.
Discussion for pikachu begins on post 289:



Pikachu: (65/35)

General Matchup:
  • Pikachu's strengths are found in a variety of places. Fast at times, strong at times, and really annoying at other times. Underestimating pikachu in any of these fields could prove to be deadly for gw.
  • Pika's priority is sparce, if that. Most of his range/disjointed properties are probably only found on his forward smash and his down b. Most of pika's attacks can be outranged by gw pretty easily
  • His kill potential is pretty specific, but not to be taken lightly. Forward smash is very strong when he hits close with it, so this will only be used if you put yourself in a laggy position. If he hits with the tip of it, it does little knockback so not to worry there. Other kill moves are his upsmash (very strong/fast, probably most used kill move), down b (used well out of uptilts/upsmashes for low percent kills), and nair (only if fresh and the first few frames of the attack).
  • Pika has a pretty darn good recovery, with the use of forward b and up b together. Forward b has more vertical lift it seems than the last game and can grab the edge out of it. Up b seems to stun a bit more than it used to and can still get him back from very silly situations. Overall, pika is pretty hard to edgeguard because his quick attack is so versatile.
  • The only viable methods for pika to edgeguard are to pester you with jolts, toss out a down b near the stage, or try for a risky aerial like a nair or something. All of these are either easy to avoid or can be neutralized by a nair, not too much to worry about here.
  • Combos from pika are interesting to say the least. Quick attacks into your shield and be canceled by a jump to nair for some quick damage. Mainly combos will be probably set up by landing a jolt and then probably a running grab. Overall pika's approach becomes limited w/o any priority/range or a projectile that isn't canceled easily.
  • Combo's on your side are pretty run of the mill. Pika has a pretty bad buffered roll and tech roll out of a dthrow, so tech chasing will be pretty easy. Up airs work well to keep him in the air just watch for sporatic thunders (they probably woudn't want to do this, it'll leave them open). Everything else is really stylistic based as far as what moves you use when.

General Strategies:
  • Pika likes to use a lot of shield pressure techniques, so watch out for them. If he quick attacks your sheild a lot just hold out or up b to get him off of you. He shouldn't be able to do them in so much succession that your sheild will wear out, up b is a real savior in this department.
  • Against his recovery, its possible to dtilt him out of his forward be assuming he doesn't space it pixel perfect. Other than that my general preference is throwing out a nair, covers a lot of ground and will assuredly hit him out of it. Another option would be to try and bait him to land above the stage with his up b and try to up air punish his freefall.
  • Personally i feel as though the bucket should only be used to catch down b's from a distance, jolts from a distance, or mid ranged jolts if you have low percents. Otherwise, you'll find yourself dead from an upsmash. I think it is worth it to take two upsmashes at low damage, when the bucket is full, thats always a free stock.
  • Overall, there isn't a whole lot to this matchup. You'll find that you'll win in almost all of your approaches, as you'll either have way more range than him, or he just doesn't have the ooshield options to punish you. Grabs will destroy him, and he's pretty light so he's very susceptible to early deaths.

Stages:
  • Rainbow cruise would hurt pika a lot, but could also backfire because of the high reach of thunder. Of course if you can nab jungle japes, you'd be golden.
  • Avoid low ceilings, and opens spaces like corneria/fd.
Discussion for Ike begins on post 324:



Ike: (6/4)

General Matchup:
  • Ike's claim to fame comes from his excellent strength and range. Even gw will find himself outmatched many times in terms of reach and kill strength.
  • Places where Ike will often outrange you are his nair, fair, fsmash, and upsmash. Most of his other moves you will find that you can work around, however these are not guaranteed. Ike's moves have surprising amounts of priority, thus even moves like uptilt and ftilt etc can find their own ways around your moves.
  • Kill moves, where do I begin? I find that fsmash, upsmash, uptilt, and bair kill the most often, however just about all of his moves could be used to kill with the exception of his jab. These moves aren't particularly fast however, so at least you have the fact that they are telegraphed on your side.
  • Ike will either side b when above the stage to recover or dj to up b when below. Side b can grab the edge, thus the best way to combat this move is to either hog if you think they will go for the edge, or simply get in their way away from the stage and they will plummet to their death. To beat the up b, the only thing i have found is simple edgehogs, or run off the stage past ike and then up b beneath him to snipe the ledge from him.
  • Other than a risky fair, you will find that ike is pretty much unable to edgeguard gw. It is possible for ike to dair off the edge too, keep this in mind as well.
  • Ike's combos are incredibly limited, given the nature of his character. Nair cancels very nicely upon landing to jab, which he might be able to chase to another aerial.
    Jab can also link to a lot of things, such as uptilts, grabs, and more jabs (cancelled) so watch out.
  • Ike is fairly heavy, and has poor air movement. This allows up air juggling and nair combos to be used to a good extent. Ike rolls and techs pretty far, thus making it fairly difficult to tech chase him, dthrows should still be used sparingly, per usual.

General Strategies:
  • Some ike's will camp near the edge and up b when they have the advantage, regrabbing the edge. This can be dealt with by up b'ing underneath them and forcing them to the edge and to eat a fair.
  • Make sure to keep an eye on their approach. It is incredibly difficult to shield any of ike's approaches because they have enough force to push gw back out of grab range. Never try to counter their fair/nair approaches with any of your own aerials, you will lose every time.
  • You'll find that a very defensive style is needed to beat ike. Annoying them with up airs and forcing them to use laggy aerials in bad situations is the key to punishing ike. Also, the use of the chef would help alot because ike is slow and has no projectile him self or quick aerials to cancel out the chef parts.
  • Try to force ike into a situation off the stage. Either fthrows or bthrows, dtilts are all excellent to push ike off the stage.
  • Overall this matchup is very simple. Ike's approaches are very simplistic and linear/telegraphed, thus you shouldn't have too much trouble punishing him.

Stages:
  • Just about any stage would hurt ike. Rainbow cruise of course works well, along with frigate and other stages with missing ledges or quirks.
  • Personally i would avoid norfair maybe, or simply neutral stages.
Discussion for Dedede begins on post 337:



King Dedede: (6/4)

General Matchup:
  • Dedede's strong suits are his ability to camp and play defensively, strength, and his exceptional grab/throw game. Keep these in mind when playing against D3 players.
  • You'll find that ddd has a lot of priority on a lot of his attacks, just not enough in most cases to get through gw's. As a general rule, you will want to avoid challenging his smashes, luckily these moves aren't too fast and are telegraphed. Ftilt, Upair, Dair will usually beat all of your moves and bair can sometimes find its way around your attacks.
  • Most ddd's will find themselves resorting to uptilts, bairs, fairs, upairs, and his other strong attacks at random (smashes, dash attack, gordo) for kills. Most of these aren't too hard to avoid as long as you simply don't put yourself in bad positions or use your better range to your advantage.
  • Edgeguarding ddd is where he hurts the most in this matchup. Almost all of his options for recovering can be foiled by gw. He will usually use his jumps in sneaky ways possibly along with air dodges to get around gw, and if needed he will up b and either cancel it or land on the stage.
  • DDD is not too bad at edgeguarding gw. If they know what they are doing ff'd bairs (sometimes fairs/dairs) will be able to take you off guard. Always remember that up b will go through all of these (maybe not dair sometimes, but that will only knock you up or just knick you, allowing another up b and him in a bad situation). Also be weary of the occasional gordo that might be tossed out.
  • D3's combos are usually derived from his grab game. A grab, hit, dthrow to tech chase can rack up a lot of damage. Back airs can sometimes be chained together along with some of his other aerials.
  • GW's combos, per usual, are found in the air. Up air and nair both destroy ddd's chances in the air exceptionally well. The only option they have when above gw is to dair, which increases their falling speed and has a pretty good amount of priority. Dthrow works alright because of his size, but his large tech roll length and buffer roll speed/range make it hard to techchase him. Use up throws to start combos and pester him.


General Strategies:
  • DDD players will make good use of his defensive attributes. His spot dodge and roll both have excellent amounts of invincibility frames compared to the lag, making it hard to punish ddd. If you find the ddd player doing this alot, make use of gw's multi hit attacks, turtle and nair work pretty well. Also fsmashes have a lot of frames where a hitbox is out, this can work on occasion too.
  • Another form of camping that you will see is waddle throwing. This will probably be used in conjunction with his roll i-frames to make for an annoying strategy that works well against most character w/o a projectile (gw's projectile will probably be nullified in this situation). However, if they leave a waddle doo out, you can bucket his laser beam for a decent kill attack. Also in general, gw's air movement is pretty good, so when used with smart shielding, it probably wouldn't be too hard to get next to ddd.
  • DDD has an excessively long/quick grab that will get annoying pretty quick. Not only can he grab you out of most of your aerials (save the turtle when spaced well), he can rack up a lot of damage with tech chasing. Using your up b to escape the ground and put gw in his element is a good idea in this situation, and will give you time to collect yourself. Also note, that if the techchasing isn't working well for ddd, they will resort to back throwing (16% when fresh, which will hurt after a while).
  • When ddd camps with dodges, make sure your spacing is very tight or else you will get grabbed. Even landing behind ddd with say a nair, there isn't enough shield stun to avoid him turning around and grabbing, as his grab is very quick. Also ddd will use the ftilt to combat the turtle, it works, especially if you sh your turtle. Luckily the move doesn't do a lot of knock back/is kinda slow/doesn't do too much dmg. Thus it isn't too hard to either full hop your turtles, just just feign an aerial and air dodge to grab.
  • When edgeguarding ddd, you have a lot of options, and this is likely where you will rack up most of your damage/kills. The best thing he can do is simply jump to the ledge and do his best to get from the ledge to the middle of the stage. However, since his up b is quite slow, you can always predict the path he will take if he does this. A simple fair will either force him to dodge or get knocked further out and he will then likely have to up b. This will cause them to try and use aerials near the ledge to swat you away next time. If you see this happening, just sit by the ledge and dtilt, it goes through all of his aerials.
    Now we get to when he starts up-b'ing. If you up b into ddd at any point on his way down, it will always knock him back out, assuming your facing off the stage. Nair will also work, into an up b. This process can be rinsed and repeated. Their only other option is to cancel the up b and go for the ledge or fake you out. As long as you keep an open eye for this, you can punish ddd hard and hog him. Just remember to keep the edgeguarding simple: take his jumps away through aerials, sausage (works well to make clutter), and dtilts. After this just sit near the edge and up b or hog, simple as that.
  • When you have ddd in the air abuse your up air. If they air dodge, make sure you nair them out of it (his large size will make this easy). If they decide to dair, try to get to where you think the move will stop and punish there or land on the ground next to him, easy to punish with a fsmash or upsmash if your spacing is right.
  • When recovering as gw, make sure you are tossing out fairs to take out his bair attempts, or simply up b into the bairs to knock him away and grab the ledge. You shouldn't be getting gimped to much by ddd, although it is possible so keep it in mind.
  • DDD kills with uptilt alot, learn its range. Gw really shouldn't be putting himself in this range if he is playing right. Only dair when you know it will hit (im pretty sure dair goes through the up tilt, but trades more often that would be safe to use it), so don't be attacking his shield with it, that will get you grabbed at the very least, if not uptilted. Never challenge any of his smashes (that includes dair v his upsmash), and always be weary of the bair.

Stages:
  • Counterpick rainbow, frigate, corneria (i wouldn't personally but it could work), jungle japes
  • Ban norfair, halberd, maybe a neutral.
Discussion for Lucario begins on post 360:



Lucario: (60/40)

General Matchup:
  • Lucario specializes in a lot of things. Good survivability, good range in some moves, good combos, good camping, and he gains strength when his percent increases and as he becomes behind in stock. All of these factors make for a pretty well rounded character that has few flaws but no real solid advantages.
  • Lucario's priority and range are only on some of his attacks. Fsmash, ftilt, upsmash, dair, even forward b all have either good range or good priority or even both. You'll find the upsmash beats the key, fsmash will outrange quite a few of your approaches, and the dair can even make a quick approach from below tough sometimes.
  • Lucario's best kill moves are most likely his fsmash and aura sphere (charged). These moves are excellent punishing moves and you will likely find yourself dying after making critical mistakes from these. Bair, forward b, ftilt, upsmash, and dair are also quite strong when used in the right place so watch out for those moves as well.
  • Lucario has an interesting recovery at best. First of all he moves in a floaty manner through the air and has a decent double jump, so he will likely not find himself not able to recover. When in range of landing on the stage lucario can manipuate his up b to land in a variety of places, so keep this versatility in mind. Because it has no attack attached to it, any attack is fair game to my knowledge, but i would stick with a ledgedropped nair to edgeguard, mainly because it covers so much ground.
  • Lucario would likely edgeguard with a dair dropped low, possibly a bair unless he is stringing you off the stage. Aura spheres can also be used to pressure you into making bad decisions, but remember the up b goes through these and it is likely that a dair won't be going through your up b too often. Any other aerial should be countered easily by a fair or something of that nature.
  • Lucario has a pretty fearsome combo game if i say so myself. Fair ends quickly in the air, and nair auto cancels. These moves string together well in a shorthop and then a jab to grab will certainly pressure you further. Lucario can also combo out of dthrows/upthrows at low percents either by hitstun or watching you and punishing. Also the dair combos nicely out of fairs. Overall many of his attacks string together nicely, don't be surprised by high damage combos.
  • Gw's combos work much in the same against lucario. He has quite the short tech roll, but a lengthy buffered roll. This works well for you as tech chasing shouldn't be too hard against lucario, if they are buffering rolls punish by jabbing and grabbing again or dsmashing. Up air if they are above you and dair spamming. Other than that, standard combos apply.

General Strategies:
  • Other ways to edgeguard lucario would be to apply a lot of pressure offstage with fairs weak or strong. This can sometimes push them too far away for their up b to reach.
  • They are quite capable of camping most characters with aura sphere, although it is likely they will only use a fully charged one against gw's in times of need (punishment). Don't expect the bucket to make or break this matchup, it only forces them to approach you instead of them being able to camp.
  • Fsmash is an excellent tool to punish sloppy gw play. If your turtle happy, expect to get stuffed by a lot of fsmashes. Its quite easy for a lucario to walk away and fsmash these attempts, so get more creative with your approaches and mix it up. Also don't get too trigger happy with the keys, these will also be thwarted by an upsmash if the lucario has some timing.
  • Landing kills can be tricky, but luckily gw has strong ones to get rid of lucario quickly before the percent advantage kicks in too quickly.
  • Overall this matchup comes down to approach methods and who punishes who better. Overall turtle/fair will beat most of lucario's aerial approaches. Up air can make it difficult for them to approach with the dair from above. Their approaches will be limited to creep forward ftilts/fsmashes, which you can certainly do something about if you see it coming. Keep a cool head and this matchup should play out in your favor, just don't rush in to get punished, because lucario can do this very easily.

Stages:
  • RC works pretty well, avoid frigate (lucario's tend to like this stage, flat edges and all). Pick a smaller stage if possible, corneria would work nice i imagine.
  • Ban fd, yoshi's island, frigate, norfair, etc.
Discussion for Ness begins on post 383:



Ness: (70/30)

General Matchup:
  • Ness works with a variety of specialized projectiles, and some range to boot. Become familiar with ness's capabilities.
  • Ness's priority can be found in his dash attack, fair, and upsmash for the most part. A lot of his other moves do have a lot of priority, however they are either very short ranged or too slow to see that often.
  • Most of ness's kills will be from the back throw. Make use of your up b to escape sticky situations that would get you grabbed. Other moves that can kill are pkt2, bair, dair, upair, and fsmash but these moves should be fairly easily outranged or simply avoided.
  • Ness's recovering will usually consist of them doing what they can to return with a dj, avoiding using their upb. When dj'ing, they will usually fair to keep a hitbox infront of them to cover their path. Upb, when used properly can recover from a variety of situations and ranges, and can hurt pretty bad if you mess up edgeguarding it.
  • Ness's edgeguards by tossing an up b your way to possibly hit you, or maybe drop down and fair, these don't work too well and can potentially put ness in a bad situation, he won't be able to edgeguard you for the most part.
  • Most combo's i've seen from ness are from a dair that was landed while gw was on the ground to an up air or another aerial. Other combos might be landed pk fires to grab combos. These are pretty specific however, most of ness's play styles involve hit and run methods.
  • Gw's combos work pretty well, per usual. He is pretty small, which works to your disadvantage, nair/bair don't get as many hits in per average, but still work well. Dthrow works well vs teching ness's as his tech roll is pretty average. I would still up throw a lot to get up air chains in, he really doesn't have an answer for it.

General Strategies:
  • Offstage when ness is recovering, all gw really has to do is wait. If ness is looking to use his dj to get back from below (slowfall key works nicely) and from the side (dtilt beats both fair and just him trying to grab the edge). Overall you'll be working around ness's fair. If gw sees the ness start the up b sequence, a fair will knock him out of this easily. If he's too far away for that, its likely that he needs to grab the edge, which a hog solves. If you are too far into the stage to do anything, grab the ledge and use the up air to get a smash off and punish. Also the bucket is useful to absorb the whole pkthunder killing ness, and the up b can push ness really high up out of range for the thunder to hit him.
  • Ness has a pretty silly fair, don't underestimate this move. It will out reach all but your bair head to head. If the ness is throwing this out a lot use your back air to close the distance and then you can apply pressure through the normal methods.
  • Dash attack and sliding upsmashes are decent approaches when spaced correctly (coming from ness). You'll know he's going do to do these however as he has to be dashing to get effectiveness out of these. Remember to up b out of shield if you feel pressured by ness at all.
  • This matchup is pretty boring overall. The two characters are reduced to a few moves to approach with. Gw will take the cake off the stage and on the ground, and the two characters will go pretty even in the air. Make use of your combos to rack up lots of damage and perfect your edgeguarding to ensure victories.

Stages:
  • Given ness having very picky recovery, RC, frigate, and japes all will work pretty well. Even norfair and corneria would probably work well too.
  • Personally i would avoid yoshi's island, because he could potentially camp under that platform, but he doesn't have too many advantages on too many stages.
Discussion for ROB begins on post 474:



Rob: (65/35)

General Matchup:
  • Rob specializes in a very good projectile game, excellent recovery, and decent reach and combos.
  • Rob doesn't have a particularly amazing amount of priority on his attacks, however he does have pretty good reach in the places that he needs it. Ftilt is probably among one of the best speed/range ratio moves in the game. This, coupled with smart use of his laser and gyro can make it difficult to approach rob. The fair, nair, dtilt, uptilt, and bair also have pretty decent range, so watch out for that.
  • Rob has been somewhat notorious for lacking in the kill move department. If saved, the nair makes for a good kill move, however, due to its great versatility, rob players tend to use this move to approach and to punish in the air. The fsmash, upsmash, and bair also are decent kill moves as well, along with the upthrow (usually kills around 160 and up on gw most stages).
  • Rob's recovery is interesting in this matchup. Against most characters, rob has very little trouble recovering due to how far his up b can get him. However, against mk and gw, rob finds himself in a difficult bind returning to the stage. Through a combination of up b, neutral b, fairs, dtilts, up airs, and dairs, gw can make it near impossible for rob to recover.
  • Rob will probably have some of the best edgeguarding against gw that any character has. Because rob can venture so far off the stage, he has no problem dropping very low into gw's recovery path to interrupt him. Fairs and bairs can easily push gw back out into a bad spot. Keep an eye on the rob trying to interrupt you and try to get a fair/nair out before they can start pressuring you on your way back.
  • Rob has some combos to take note of. Fair chaining on and off the stage is very possible and you should attempt to di away and up b as soon as possible to interrupt this. Dtilt locks against walls are also tricky to avoid in some situations given how fast the move is, and this move can be a very nice setup for grabs as well. Dthrow to upair at 0 percent can rack up a quick thirty damage, so also watch for this.
  • Gw's combos are pretty run of the mill in this matchup. Rob's large frame helps gw to catch him in nairs and bairs, and also uptilt chains at low percent. Robs tech roll is a bit below average, so tech chasing him is certainly within reason given that he has a large frame to boot. Up air pressure works alright, however b sticked gyros and bairs certainly can shift his momentum enough to possibly throw you off.

General Strategies:
  • When on the stage a campy rob can be difficult to deal with. Rob can very easily beat a lot of your aerial approaches by simply walking out of range and forward tilting. This will beat even the turtle approach if done right. Make sure you know how to mix up your approaches and even become over aggressive with cross up nairs or simple grabbing to throw the rob off. Also watch out for the uptilt, which will often times hit you when your above him trying to get behind him, and its even fast enough to beat your key if you start at the same time. When they move even further away, make sure to watch for the laser and bucket, the cooldown of the laser is usually high enough to ensure you won't get punished for bucketing. When facing the gyro try to avoid it and pick it up, giving you a nice glide toss approach which can get you in his face quickly.
  • Edgeguarding rob is really where gw gains a large advantage in this matchup. Sit on the ledge and toss bacon if they are coming from the side or below diagonally. If they come from above dj up b will usually knock them back out. If they come from below, rar'd key near the edge will hit them. When they get closer, switch from bacon to dtilt usually, rob's will approach with aerials or try to grab the ledge. If they come from below try to get a key out like before. Dtilt beats upairs from below and fairs spaced. Jumping off and fairing can also work well in your favor if you know when to use it. If they grab the ledge, wait and shield when you see movement. If they get up attack, you can sh a fair to knock them back out. If they roll turn around and grab them/throw them out. If they get up, this can throw you off, try to predict it and grab them. If they jump from ledge, either jump nair to up b or just up b to knock them back out. If you rinse and repeat this method, they will run out of gas shortly and die. Of course smart players will have their tricks too, this doesn't mean gw will always kill rob if he's off the stage. Lasers, going under the stage, smart up b'ing can all help save the rob.
  • This matchup is very simple after getting around the camping and edgeguarding issues. Make use of your range in this matchup as it is usually better than the robs in the air when they approach you. If you work your kill moves in at the right time (they have a hard time killing gw's, so you will likely not get punished as hard for whiffing) then you will likely be able to take the matchup without much trouble.

Stages:
  • Rob is actually quite proficient on all the stages that gw is good on. If corneria is on certainly go for that, but other than that go for neutrals in my opinion.
  • There's nothing in particular you should ban, as the stages rob is good on gw doesn't have a particular disadvantage on. Although do take note of the stages rob might be able to dtilt lock you on (you can do it back too!)
Discussion for kirby begins on 492:



Kirby: (60/40)

General Matchup
  • Kirby has a lot of mobility and amazing combos. You'll find that he has plenty of ability to maneuver around your disjointed hitboxes and retaliate.
  • Kirby's priority/range are not really all that profound. Some moves like fsmash, bair, hammer (side b), have pretty good range, but for the most part, gw's attacks will outprioritize and outrange kirby's.
  • Kirby has plenty of kill moves to keep him a very viable character. Fsmash and hammer are probably his best. These moves are fairly fast and pack a huge punch. Upsmash, dsmash, bair, and dair spikes also account for some of kirby's kills.
  • Kirby is probably one of the better edgeguarders vs gw, but still isn't all that amazing. The big thing here is the multiple jumps and his general maneuverability. He has the potential to sneak bairs in to push you further off, however you'll find that overpowering him with aerials and up b's will get you through. Kirby's down b will likely go through your up b if space right.
  • Edgeguarding kirby is probably going to involve rushing him off the stage with fairs, and trying to force him to use his up b under the ledge. If you can predict this in time, a reverse dair will probably knock him into the ledge.
  • Kirby has some amazing combos that spring from his grab. Fthrow at low percents usually lead into an upair to reverse up tilt. Up b as soon as you can to escape this (probably only after the uptilt). Other combos usually will come from well spaced uptilts, dthrows, etc. Don't underestimate how quickly he can rack damage up.
  • Kirby is fairly small, which can make it difficult to tech chase and land solid bair/nair hits. Also kirby is fairly good at rolling/teching out of the dthrow and he can also avoid upair harrassment by down b'ing. This makes kirby pretty good at getting out of gw's combo tricks.

General Strategies:
  • Learn to avoid his kill moves, they will wreck you pretty early if you don't know what your doing. Fsmash is really fast and is an excellent surprise killer. If the kirby is good, they will know when to throw the aerial hammer in, which can also destroy gw pretty early.
  • A general thing gw's should always be doing, but keep in mind more often when facing kirby that up b's will save you alot when getting combo'd.
  • Keep your spacing tight against kirby, mistakes here will likely be pretty costly for you. Missing the spacing on your moves can get you 40% in combos or a fsmash for the kill.
  • When off the stage, make sure you make the most out of edgeguarding him. I listed above the best way to do this, I think that that reverse key will really hurt kirby in this situation.
  • When using the upair against kirby, keep in mind that the rock will probably come out to end the aerial pressure. This can be punished just by staying to the side of him and readying a fair for if he drops out mid air. If he lands just go for the grab.
  • If kirby copies you, you can dair them immediately, they can't avoid it.
  • Bucketing the up b isn't usually a bad idea, it has enough lag time after it if i remember correctly to avoid punishment. Sometimes kirbies use this alot when out ranged (good kirbies shouldn't against a gw, as they know you can bucket).
  • Overall in this matchup you just need to keep your spacing tight and keep the pressure on by matching his range as often as possible. Learn to weave your kill moves in, possibly save your fair for kills, and you should be doing fine in this matchup.

Stage:
  • I would probably just stick with a neutral, maybe even fd. Im sure that frigate orpheon would work well if you need a cp stage, or even halberd/delphino.
  • DONT pick rainbow cruise! Other than that norfair probably wouldn't work that well either.
Discussion for ice climbers begins on post 549:



Ice Climbers: (60/40)

General Matchup:
  • Ice climbers are the best in the game at punishment. One grab given the right conditions takes a stock from gw, i don't think any other character in the game can claim that. Overall though, they have decent strength, good keep away game/range, and aren't particularly slow either.
  • Ice climbers actually have a lot of awkward priority in some places. Their up air will go through your key, uptilt does as well. Of course their blizzard will go through just about everything, and bucketing this doesn't usually produce good results (very weak).
  • IC's main methods to kill are almost always through grabs. All of their smashes from grabs will produce good results for them at high percent, more notably the upsmash, these are of course, inescapable, if the player knows what they are doing. Other than that, bair and up air can be surprisingly strong if the moves are kept fresh.
  • Ice climbers will try to avoid recovering with the belay (up b) if at all possible. Mainly because an edgehog can kill nana easily, and if not, then it leaves them vulnerable on the stage for a fair at the least. They will likely make use of the squall, which has very nice priority, and can cover amazing distances. Im sure that a fair/key will be able to go through this, so try to predict where they are headed with these moves and make the most out of it.
  • Ice climbers' edgeguarding will probably be very different from icy to icy player. They are capable of stalling nana under the stage, although i imagine that this isn't a great idea against gw given the priority of his up b. Ice blocks or bairs will probably be used often against gw, which shouldn't be too hard to work around. Given that they perform poorly off the stage (its risky), they won't be too much of a hassle.
  • Combo'ing the ice climbers is... interesting. Grabs are usually always a bad idea, gw's throws aren't nearly fast enough to surprise them, so avoid doing that. Combo's here are probably not going to be that common, nair combo'ing can work, however watch out for the dair.

General Strategies:
  • When applying pressure on their shield, watch out for them powershielding and then grabbing you, if they do running shield, this is possible. Also, out of a shielded bair, and squall could certainly punish you.
  • I wouldn't really attempt to bucket their blizzards, particularly if they are desynched. This will likely get you grabbed, and even if you do get a full bucket unscathed, its very weak and hardly worth your trouble. Blizzards can make approaching difficult, particularly if you are used to bairs to approach as that will certainly go through it. Work on keeping ranged pressure on them to avoid desynched situations like that.
  • Other than squalls, blizzards, and possibly desynched smashes, their approach game is pretty linear. Mainly they will play defensively looking for grabs, but if you play your range right you can prevent this for sure.
  • This matchup isn't very interesting by any means, you will mostly have to put a lot of pressure on the icies while on the ground with bairs, and in the air with up airs. Look for opportunities to gimp them with offstage pressure, and dsmashes are sure to separate/kill them easily given the different hitboxes, range and speed.

Stages:
  • Your going to want to go with stages that have a lot of platforms and ones that could ruin their recovery. RC comes to mind first, maybe even lylat.
  • Probably want to avoid fd, open stages like that.
Discussion for pit begins on post 578:



Pit: (65/35)

General Matchup:
  • Pit is probably one of the best campers in the game, right up their with falco and snake. Arrows, two reflecting moves, multiple jumps, fairly long recovery, all these add up to a great camping character.
  • Pit has good priority, but lacks range in a lot of areas. Most of his attacks are short to medium ranged, exceptions being maybe ftilt and the upsmash, and most don't have the priority to back it up, except maybe the fsmash or up air. (against gw at least)
  • Pits major kill moves are his fsmash, bair, glide attack, and dsmash. The smashes are pretty fast, but the bair can be a bit slow at times and somewhat telegraphed (the glide attack should be telegraphed too lol). Watch out for the smashes out of shield.
  • Pits edgeguarding against gw will be to spam arrows, if they think you won't bucket them. I would off the stage (you should be bucket braking anyway), since its hard to punish for them. Anything offstage for them other than that would be risky for them so you probably won't see it too often.
  • To edgeguard pit, i would probably throw bacon out, and then throw fairs or up b's their way to force them to use more jumps. If you can get them in their up b, your in good shape, they will make a desperate move to the edge, try and predict this. When they glide above you, make use of your up air, and if they try to glide attack you, bair through it.
  • Pits combos aren't all that amazing. He can only forward throw chain you once at 0, so that isn't too much trouble. Watch out for nairs that can quickly cancel from short hops into smashes. Also uptilt comes out surprisingly fast (3 frames!) so watch out for that.
  • Pit has an average buffered roll, but an above average tech roll. So if your opponent knows how to tech consistently you might want to opt for upthrowing depending on how good your tech chase skills are. Nairs work well, he has an average sized body. Up air'ing is alright against pit, gliding can help him get out of this however, so you have to be persistent.

General Strategies:
  • If you keep your range, you will do very well in this matchup. Bair, fair, and dtilt outrange just about everything pit can throw at you (save glide attack, i think you need bair for this), including his smashes iirc. Key will beat his up air and up air will beat his dair (puffing).
  • When they start arrow spamming, start bucketing. Now this isn't always the best idea, if they are right next to you, they're gunna be able to land a smash if you bucket, so use discretion. They usually only spam when they are far away or your off the edge, so go ahead and bucket in most situations.
  • Without arrows and range they loose a lot of footing in this matchup. Their recovery lacks, and their kill moves are quick, but not terribly strong. If you have a grasp on bucket braking, then you should find them getting very frustrated making any progress in the match.

Stages:
  • Stay away from norfair if on, its only going to help their recovery. I would go for shallow ceilings in this case, their air ko's aren't amazing, so corneria if possible, otherwise, rc, delphino, halberd work too.
  • Neutrals work just fine in your favor too, I imagine that yoshi's island would hurt them, given they can't go under the stage, and i would say that their camping under the platform would hurt you, but bucketing remedies that.
Discussion for Ganondorf begins on post 609:



Ganondorf: (60/40)

General Matchup:
  • Ganon is one of the best punishment characters in the game. All of his hits hit strong, and hurt alot.
  • Most heavy characters are equipped with a good amount of range, ganon being no exception. Dtilt, ftilt, jab, dair, fair, and smashes all have pretty decent range. His priority lacks a bit, dtilt/fsmash/fair being the only moves of his that will actually be able to outrange/prioritize anything you have, and even those are rather situational.
  • Ganon's kill moves, where do i begin? If its not his jab, nair, or side b, you can assume it will kill you before 100% if fresh, and even then watch out for the moves i listed. You have to be on your toes constantly against ganon.
  • Ganon might have one of the worst recoveries in the game next to link. Simple interruptions with fair/nair will push him far enough usually to get the kill. The only thing you really need to watch for is if he side b's in an attempt to take you down with him.
  • Ganon will probably want to avoid going off the stage after you, unless he REALLY thinks he can land a spike for some reason, don't expect it too often.
  • Ganon has a fair amount of devastating combos to look out for. Side b will combo into a jab/dtilt/ftilt, racking up some nice damage for him. Dair autocancelled to up air works at low percents, dair to dair works, dair to upsmash sometimes even. If he lands a dair to up air, and then manages to get you with a side b to dtilt, an fsmash will kill you. Don't be surprised if ganon only needs to land 5 moves to kill you.
  • Ganon has a terrible tech roll, and a decent buffer roll. If they start to buffer rolls to avoid your tech chasing, then jab them when they land to a regrab, otherwise his rolls shouldn't be too hard to chase. When in the air, he has poor movement, up throws to up air chases should work pretty well, dair is slow, so you should see it coming and move to the side if you need to nair. Nair autocancels well against tall characters, so nair - up tilt - nair - nair - fair will rack up a good amount of damage at most percents for ganon.

General Strategies:
  • Most of his game will be based off of punishing your mistakes. If you are constantly aware of your spacing, and watch out for his side b's you should be able to get out of entire stocks unscathed. The only reason this match is a 6/4 is because of how badly he can punish you.
  • The mentality you want to keep in this matchup is to avoid trading hits with ganon. If you trade too many hits, you will lose because he can ko you at half the percent you need him at to die.
  • When edgeguarding, weak fairs work amazingly to push him out, most often you can get two of these out for a guaranteed gimp. Slow dairs will also help too.
  • This matchup is pretty simple, no specific techniques will help you out. He will be looking to punish your attacks and if you dont' give him a chance to, you will win hands down. Keep your spacing tight, and you should do fine.

Stages:
  • Ganon does terrible on most stages. RC, frigate, norfair, brinstar, jungle japes all would probably work well against ganon. Anything that forces him to recover, cuz he lacks very badly in that department.
  • I would avoid low ceiling stages, like halberd or corneria i suppose. For a neutral i would probably avoid fd or smashville, keep the stage cramped if at all possible.
Discussion for bowser begins on post 622:



Bowser: (60/40)

General Matchup:
  • Bowser, the king of grab releases. He's notable for racking up damage with his releases, and he can have decent range and punishment options as well. Also, being a heavyweight, he has the notorious strong ko moves and the high weight.
  • Bowser has some interesting moves. For the most part, he doesn't have too much range, but dtilt, ftilt, uptilt, jabs, fsmash all have pretty decent range/priority. Also, his up b oos has invincibility, so that will be able to beat attacks if used correctly.
  • Bowser has a plethora of kill moves. Dtilt, smashes, up air/tilt, are all really strong, and the fair, side b, bair, ftilt, can also kill if they kept them fresh. Overall, if your at around 80, you need to be really weary, most of the moves in his set can ko gw pretty quickly.
  • There are very few edgeguard options for bowser. Flame angled down can apply pressure to gw once he lands on the stage, but overall bowser going off the stage will put him in a risky position. However when your on the ledge, watch out for angled ftilts, dtilts, and fsmashes, they pack a punch and can hit you when your on the ledge.
  • Fairs work well to push bowser off the stage, but your going to need good spacing. Fortress has pretty good priority, so your going to need to work around that. Other than that, good hogs and dtilts will probably help too. His recovery is pretty 1 tracked, he doesn't have any tools to get back other than up b, so use that to your advantage.
  • Combos for bowser? lol, no just his grab releases. He can forward b and fair you if you jump break from the grab, and jab, ftilt, regrab, and side b. Not too bad, other characters have it worse, and you should be able to avoid grabs easily enough, however, keep in mind that at like 80 percent near the edge, this could spell an easy way for him to kill.
  • Bowsers buffer roll is horrendous, and his tech roll is only average at best, dthrowing is probably a good idea in this matchup considering his large body size too. When up throwing/up airing him, watch for the bowser bomb, other than that upairs/nairs will probably wreck him.

General Strategies:
  • This matchup is pretty simple, like alot of the other low/mid tiers are. Its mostly using your range to your advantage, whereas they can't do too much about it, which is usually what makes them low tier in the first place.
  • Work to avoid getting grabbed, which will hurt you the most. Fortresses will be used on the bowsers part to get them outta tight spots, so keep that in mind. Overall, fsmashes are probably the only move you really have to work around, and those are easily punished. Pressure with good spacing, and you will come out on top fairly easily.
  • Bucket the fire breath if they use it alot, but it isn't the strongest of buckets, only probably killing at like 60 and up.
  • Ledgecamping is a complete pain for bowser to deal with, use this if your desperate and need some breathing room.
  • The uptilt is probably going to kill you the earliest of all his ko moves, its one of the strongest uptilts in the game.
  • Watch the bowsercides, di into the stage at all times when you get up b'd.

Stages:
  • Anywhere bad recoveries falter. RC, frigate, japes all probably work good as usual. Yoshi's is probably his best neutral, just a guess though.
  • Avoid shallow ceilings probably, like halberd/corneria.
Discussion for luigi begins on post 649:



Luigi: (70/30)

General Matchup:
  • He's one of the best combo'ers in the game, luigi is also surprisingly strong and can kill people in single combos if played right, watch out.
  • Priority and range are not luigi's forte at all. If anything his tornado has the most priority of his attacks, but it still has little range. Bair probably has the most range, but not enough priority to pierce gw's attacks.
  • His main kill moves are probably the fsmash and up b. Beyond that nairs, upsmash/dsmashes, misfires, and maybe bairs will make up the rest of his kills. Mainly you need to watch out for the first two, up b will kill you at 40% on most stages, and the fsmash probably in the 70's.
  • Luigi probably can't edgeguard you very well. Fireballs work against most characters to pressure them, but those can be bucketed off stage. Nair/Up b will probably be able to take out any aerial attempts.
  • Luigi can be tricky to edgeguard, your best bet is probably to dair him on his way up, fair attempts off the stage will work to interrupt his side b as well. If he's in the range, bacon can clog his recovery up too.
  • Luigi is full of combos. I can't even list them theres so many variations. Just about all of his aerials are good to link together, his throws chain into aerials, and side b can help him move in and out whenever he needs to. The worst is when he can jab to up b, because this works on gw, he can't shield inbetween them.
  • Luigi has excellent rolls, i would only dthrow once in a while after conditioning the up throw, even then doing an instant dsmash won't hit him, he can roll out before hand. Up throws are nice though, he is very floaty and will have a very hard time getting out of the up air chains.

General Strategies:
  • Bucket with caution, if at max range, or if your on a platform, you might be able to avoid taking serious damage, but if your too close, the up b will find its way to you, and it will hurt. When off the stage, your likely to only take an aerial for bucketing.
  • Make sure you up b to get out of his combos, its your best bet. Don't worry about trying to interrupt him with keys, just regroup and start pressuring at range again.
  • His approaches are usually fireball or down b based. Remember that the dtilt can take care of both of these if you want to play defensively. It should also outrange all of his aerials/ground moves, thus making it very difficult for him to approach.
  • The reason this matchup is rated a 7/3 is because luigi has very few approaches and has no reliable way to get around any of gw's hitboxes. Once he does he can lay some damage down, and he certainly can get kills if gw makes mistakes, but if the gw plays a decent spacing game, luigi will become very aggravated very quickly at his inability to deal damage.

Stages:
  • Go for the high ceilings to avoid early kills. Fsmash (di'ed right) and up b both kill up so japes is great. Neutrals like bf and fd are good stages to work with too.
  • Avoid halberd, corneria, delphino probably. Anything that facilitates his kill range.
Discussion for link begins on post 662:



Link: (60/40)

General Matchup:
  • Link is one of the best projectile users in the game, coupled with good range, high weight, and decent kill options, you'll find him to be a pester.
  • Links got a pretty good amount of range and priority on some moves you should look out for. Dair helps him fall faster and will certainly beat the nair, and will make the up air more difficult to use. Up air/upsmash/uptilt will beat the key. Fsmash and ftilt have a good amount of forward range to beat advancing approaches. Zair will outrange all of your moves if used side to side, and the bombs will cut through most of your attacks unless you space it just right. Bottom line, he can outspace you in a lot of situations.
  • Links best ko moves are the dair, ftilt, fsmash, upair, and dsmash. These shouldn't have too much trouble killing you slightly after 100-110 area. Remember that it will be hard to out prioritize some of these moves.
  • Link does have a poor recovery, this is no secret. They will likely toss boomerangs and pull bombs to aid them back to the stage. Use your fair to go through the boomerang, and try to hit the link with another fair, weak if possible. This will simply push them further out. Dairs will go through their grapple and up b attempts. Bacon might also be a decent idea to tie them up offstage.
  • Links edgeguarding attempts will likely just be bombs thrown offstage, simply because they will want to avoid going offstage themselves. Up airs can push these out of the way.
  • Link isn't really all that well known for his combo ability. Boosted upsmashes work well with some moves, and his projectiles can certainly be used with zairs to tie you up, but for the most part, he's a chip damage character.
  • The dthrow won't work so well on link, his tech and buffered rolls are very good. Also if he misses the tech and buffers the roll, he gets out faster than the dsmash can hit him. Up throw are probably a better idea. Watch out for the dair, but if you can bait him into using it hit him from the side with nairs or turtles.

General Strategies:
  • Make use of your dtilts, turtles, nairs, etc to cancel out the rangs and arrows. When he throws bombs, unless its from above, your better off getting out of the way, and if it is, up air them.
  • Approach from a diagonal if possible, such as when facing zss. Their grapple will beat most of your sh approaches and your ground approaches. So full hop turtles or drop in with nairs. Link doesn't deal that well with close range pressure, and gw is very good at dealing it out.
  • When edgeguarding, do your best to simply interrupt him. Because he falls fast and his up b doesn't cover much horizontal distance pushing him farther out helps.

Stages:
  • RC, Frigate, japes, or any other stage with tough recovering.
  • Avoid norfair for sure, and possibly even halberd/delphino/brinstar. Neutrals should be fine.
Discussion for yoshi begins on post 693:



Yoshi: (65/35)

General Matchup:
  • Yoshi is well known for his grab game and his projectiles. Most of his other properties are rather average, which tends to keep yoshi in the lower tiers.
  • His priority/range is fairly average with a few notable mentions. Up air, if timed correctly can beat your dair along with the upsmash. Your also going to want to watch out for the fsmash, which has good range.
  • Kill moves are mainly the upsmash/forward smash. Up air can also work too in the right situations, along with the sweet spot of the down b. Yoshi is also known for his spikes and such, but they aren't very effective against gw, so just watch out for those four moves and you should survive a fair amount.
  • Yoshi's will have to settle for egg tosses when edgeguarding gw. Any other moves will likely be beaten by nairs or up b's.
  • Yoshi is pretty fast moving through the air, which can make him difficult to edgeguard at times. If he air dodges through his double jump, he can cover a lot of ground while remaining invincible. Also since he has unlimited egg tosses, he can cover a lot of horozontal ground before double jumping to safety. Do your best to interrupt his up b's with bacon or fairs, and his double jump with fairs if possible.
  • Yoshi has good grab releases against a lot of characters, gw not really being an exception. If no platforms interfere, an upsmash can likely be landed. Yoshi probably won't be combo'ing all that much, this matchup boils down to a lot of hit and run for him.
  • Yoshi has a pretty good tech/buffer roll, and escapes the dthrow-dsmash combo by rolling. Also, since he has pretty good air speed, he can get out of up air pressures by moving side to side. He has a fairly large frame, so you can get a pretty good amount of nairs off, combo'ing here isn't anything particularly special.

General Strategies:
  • Keep a watch on his pivot grabs. Its one of his best assets in this matchup. He can use it to get around all of your aerials if spaced correctly. It should be considered his longest range tool and they will use it a lot to keep a footing in the matchup. Just watch your spacing and don't leave yourself too open.
  • His other trusty tool in this matchup is his egg tosses. They can't be bucketed and can be difficult to work around at times. It is likely that the yoshi player will sit back and throw these a good portion of the matchup to force your approach. Bair can cut through them but this can also leave you open for grabs too so watch out.
  • Overall the grab game and eggs do help yoshi, but can't keep gw for bay that long. Since yoshi can't deal that much damage to gw with throws it makes it difficult for yoshi to keep up in the percent game. Gw will beat yoshi in most of his approaches and his range will mostly over power yoshi. If you can keep a lot of pressure on yoshi throughout the match, and land key gimps, you should find yourself doing well.

Stages:
  • Neutrals will probably work fine vs yoshi and since his recovery doesn't always require the ledge to succeed well, he'll probably find himself performing well on cp stages too. Use whatever feels comfortable for you.


Discussion for Zelda/Sheik begins on post 751:



Sheik: (6/4)

General Matchup:
  • Sheik is one of the faster characters in the game, boasting a lot of quick startup on many of her attacks. Keep in mind that if you don't keep your weakpoints covered, she will be able to weave her way in to land attacks.
  • Her main priority lies in her needles/chain, which are the only attacks that im aware of that directly cut through gw's disjointed hitboxes. She has a good amount of range on some moves such as ftilt, dtilt, up air, bair, uptilt, etc, so keep that in mind.
  • Sheik will find herself killing with only a few moves. The best is the upsmash, which can be boosted. Other kill moves are up b, upair, dsmash, fsmash, and to lesser extents, bair, and fair.
  • Her edgeguarding game will likely have to be brought down to needles and edgehogs to fairs. Her other attacks don't have the priority to interrupt gw.
  • Gw's edgeguarding will be the usual, fairs, bacon, up b's, ff'd nairs etc. but keep in mind that if you hold the edge out, you can usually get a free aerial ledge hopped, like in melee.
  • Sheik is excellent at combo'ing. Her ftilt can lock many character, gw being no exception. When this move is decayed it combo's even better, even into upsmashes which can be dangerous. Ftilts can also combo into aerials as well. Sheik also has a few locks, such as bair, and i think jab as well.
  • Sheik can be hit by the dthrow to dsmash if no tech happens, and her rolls are only slightly better than average, so a good amount of tech chasing can certainly happen. Keep in mind she has poor moves from above, so nair and up air chains should be easy enough to pull off.

General Strategies:
  • Needle camping will be pretty prevalent in this matchup. Since gw has no answer for these projectiles, you'll simply have to avoid them, and this also allows sheik to play the defensive game in this match. However, gw's exceptional hitboxes make it easy enough to approach. Just expect to be avoiding a lot of needles.
  • The chain in theory could shut your aerials down, however bacon can put an end to this as well. Keep in mind that the chain is difficult and cumbersome to use, so it won't be used that often.
  • This matchup comes down to gw out prioritizing sheik everywhere, and sheik needing to run around with needles and look for openings to start combo's. Keep using your up b to escape combo's and the kill moves should be just as difficult for them to land.
  • Also, they can switch to zelda to land kills easier, so if they knock you away at mid percents with a dsmash/bair etc they can switch and then look to land a kill.

Stages:
  • Any stage where tough recovering is needed. The usuals like RC, FO, etc will work nicely.
  • They will likely go to either halberd (which can be risky for them) or to a neutral. There really isn't any particular stage you should avoid.

Zelda: (7/3)

General Matchup:
  • Zelda is excellent at pressuring with projectiles and having difficult to deal with defensive styles. Smashes and din's fire can be difficult to deal with for most characters.
  • Zelda has quite a few moves that can counter some of gw's approaches. Upsmash and upair both will beat gw's key. Ftilt, when spaced perfectly can beat the turtle, although is very difficult to do and has to be in just the right position. Din's fire will also beat gw's moveset, but shouldn't be used too much against gw.
  • She has a pretty decent amount of kill moves under her belt. Fsmash, Upsmash, Fair, Bair, Upair, uptilt are all very good and the dsmash and dair can be pretty useful at times too. Try not to be caught close to her at high percents, many of these moves have lingering hitboxes or are pretty quick.
  • Her edgeguarding potential is almost zero. She normally uses din's fire, but she doesn't want to take that risk against gw. She can still hog and try to aerial you on your landing lag, but she has no way to force you into that situation, so it shouldn't happen too often.
  • Zelda can be somewhat tricky to edgeguard. If you hog it does force her to go on the stage, but often times its too far to punish. And since she has a hitbox coming out of the up b, it can be hard to hit her out of the lag as well. Use your best judgement with bacon, and aerials to keep her off the stage.
  • Zelda isn't too much of a combo character, however you do need to watch out for the dtilt. At mid percents they can chain together, and when you start to di out, they can hit you with a dsmash at around 50, an up tilt at around 80 or so, and an up smash at even higher percents, which can all hurt.
  • Zelda has a good roll, buffered or teched. So only dthrow once in a while when you suspect they won't expect it and not tech. Up throwing works fine, she doesn't have a lot of downward priority or range, just watch for up b attempts to make it to the ground.

General Strategies:
  • If you need to, force her to approach. She isn't used to doing this against most characters, since the din's fire works so well as a defensive move. Her approach game isn't very good, and stationary hitboxes from yourself like sh in place bairs or simply dtilts will be difficult for her to work around.
  • Take care if you decide to approach her. Never get caught in dsmash range, and expect a lot of upsmash and forward smash as these moves can be difficult to punish. If you watch your spacing you should be able to win when approaching.
  • If needed, they are certainly capable of switching to sheik, to rack up damage to around 60-70ish range, and then switch back and look for oppourtunities to dtilt lock into an uptilt or upsmash, keep this in mind.
  • This matchup is rated so heavily in gw's favor due to her inability to approach gw, and that she can't deal with his pressure all that well, due to either poor speed or not enough range.

Stages:
  • More of the usual. RC, FO are good choices. Maybe avoid halberd depending on your playstyle, she is good at killing upwards too.
  • She will likely opt for a neutral, i would probably avoid fd of all the neutrals.
Discussion for peach begins on post 815:



Peach: (65/35)

General Matchup:
  • Peach has excellent movement control with her float, very fast cancelling aerials for pressure, turnips to zone with, and a good recovery to keep her alive. Her main weakness is probably her lack of killing ability.
  • Upsmash and uptilt both boast a good amount of priority and range that will beat out the key. Fair has a decent amount of range, but doesn't quite beat the turtle or fair, at best i think it will trade hits. Dair also has a lot of priority, but the neutral air will beat this move as well. On the ground watch out for variations of the forward smash.
  • Her main killing weapons are upsmash, fair, fsmash, and nair. Bair, turnips, upairs, and uptilts can also be a source of kills when fresh/zombie'd however these are much more rare.
  • Her methods of edgeguarding will likely be just tossing turnips as the up b will go through the dair, and any other aerial off the ledge can be very risky. Many moves like the nair should deflect the turnips so just keep an eye out for them.
  • Peach will likely bait moves off the stage with her float to get you to waste your jumps and force you to return to the stage. Make sure your very aggressive off the stage vs her to push her further out. The parasol isn't quite as fast as it was in melee, so that will give you more thinking time. Also dair edgeguards don't work against the parasol.
  • At low percents, peach has some decent combos to look out for. Dthrow to uptilt, if your di is wrong. Dair to nair/upair also works. Keep in mind that when she lands from any aerial on your shield, she can get jabs very fast and they will catch you off guard very often.
  • Peach can buffer out of your dthrow, and her rolls are pretty long so maybe avoid doing dthrows too much. Up airs really hurt peach give how floaty she is, and when she's in her parasol you can come close to keeping her in the up b almost indefinitely.

General Strategies:
  • The trickiest part about fighting peach is how tricky she is with her float. She can bait you into thinking you can hit her, move slightly out of the way, and retaliate easily. This also holds true when she's off the stage as well. My best advice is to move very quickly into her, and be very aggressive.
  • Turnip camping shouldn't be too much trouble, as most of your aerials will neutralize the turnips. However they can tie you up, so watch out if she tries to sneak in during your lag to take care of them. Also if you catch them, use your glide toss to get in her face.
  • For the most part this matchup boils down to a baiting game for peach, and if you can just play aggressive you shouldn't have too many troubles.

Stages:
  • RC, FO, Halberd, delphino im sure are all good choices.
  • Avoid going to japes, which is usually peach's best stage, due to the high ceiling and shallow sides.
Discussion for fox begins on post 836:



Fox: (65/35)

General Matchup:
  • Fox has two strong points, racking up damage with lasers and killing early. He also has some basic combos to watch out for that tack on some guaranteed damage.
  • Fox doesn't really have a lot of priority or range on many of his attacks. Fsmash probably boasts the longest range, however he moves his body with it, thus he doesn't get disjointed range. Overall his priority/range aren't very good.
  • Best kill move by far is his upsmash, you will be killed by this move 90% of the time for sure. Its very strong, very fast, and gw is very light so expect deaths to this my around 90% or a bit higher. Other kill moves are possibly bair, fsmash, dsmash, maybe fair.
  • Fox could possibly go for a shine spike, but this doesn't cut through any of gw's aerials, so don't be too concerned with this, if he goes for any aerials offstage, nair. Its likely that they will simply laser spam you off the stage and then hog to an aerial if anything.
  • Edgeguarding fox is pretty similar to falco, either try to interrupt him onstage or go for the hog if he drops down. If he drops even further, ff nair his up b and then go for the ledge again. Overall fairs destroy his recovery, so use them well. Also take note that they can use their fair to increase the height of their second jump, which can make it difficult to edgeguard them. Again fairs work off stage, and dtilts work near the ledge.
  • Fox's combos are pretty standard, and fit into a lot of situations. Most start with a drill to up tilt, and then finish with an aerial. Take note that the drill can combo into an upsmash at kill percents, so watch out.
  • Fox's rolls are pretty good, but can't avoid the dthrow dsmash without teching, so use it sparingly to get a free dsmash. He falls fast, so nair combos very nicely, and he'll have a hard time avoiding up air spam. Watch for sneak illusions to throw you off.

General Strategies:
  • Overall they will like to laser spam (bucket three, and then duck and wait for their approach) to rack up damage, get some drill combos in and then look for places to sneak an upsmash in. If you play defensive, they will have a hard time working around the dtilt, so make use of that. The bucket is weak, so its likely they won't be afraid to laser spam.
  • This matchup is pretty simply, mainly because their approach to the matchup is simple. If you are overbearing with your pressure, they will have a hard time getting hits in, considering they have no sneak priority or range. They will be forced to shield your hits or move around them and retaliate, and if your spacing is good, neither of these will lead to you getting punished.

Stages:
  • Rainbow cruise, Frigate Orpheon, lylat, and delphino are probably good picks. Any of the neutrals are good too.
  • If anything avoid low ceilings, but not japes, because of illusion tricks. FD and halberd probably want to be avoided.
Discussion for Samus begins on post 908:



Samus: (65/35)

General Matchup:
  • Samus has a few attributes that keep her afloat: projectiles, abuse able range, and weight to some extent. Good recovery and edgeguarding help bolster her abilities.
  • Her best range/priority lies in her grapple/zair. Beyond this, up b has good priority with little range, but fsmash, ftilt, bair, up air also have pretty good range.
  • Kill moves may vary with samus, but mostly they are the charge shot, dtilt, dsmash, uptilt, upsmash, fsmash, and bair, however these moves require you to be beyond 100 percent usually to land the kill.
  • She has one of the better spikes in the game, so watch out for that move. Other than that, zairs, and random projectiles will probably be her best means to edgeguard you.
  • Her recovery is very good, with bombs, grapples, good up b, etc to help her back. Unless she tosses a zair your way, your aerials all should be able to interrupt her, so use fairs, bacons, up b's etc to interrupt her and rack damage up.
  • Slightly above average roll lengths, and a bufferable roll from the dthrow will make it difficult to follow anything up, so only use this on platforms and/or situations where you think you can punish a roll. Up air spamming works fine, her air move speed isn't particularly amazing, and has no moves in particular to interrupt gw or help her shift momentum drastically. She is tall, and pretty heavy, so use that to your advantage in nair combos etc.
  • Samus's combos might involve up airs to up b's or dtilts, missles to zairs, and so fourth, however, samus is a pretty hit and run character for the most part.

General Strategies:
  • As a general rule, samus will be using missles and bombs to force you to make mistakes, not really to camp you. So make sure to cancel these moves out w/o putting yourself in a bad situation, or you will get zaired. They won't be spamming charge shots, because this would be risky, however they will use a fully charged one if they see the opening, so don't feel invulnerable to it.
  • She is pretty heavy, thus tough to kill, especially with a good recovery, but she also has a pretty large problem killing in this game, and will probably be in the same boat as you, if not worse. She doesn't kill up that well, and bucket brakes will really help to extend your stocks for the side and diagonal kills. Work on maximizing your range when near her, the dtilt is probably the move you should watch the most out for, probably around 120-130 range.
  • Overall this matchup will come down to how well you deal with the projectiles and the zair, which if you can do well, you should destroy samus without too much trouble. Most samus players will specialize in this area, so don't take it too lightly.

Stages:
  • Any stage really works fine against samus, FO maybe being the better one, depending on how the camp missiles. Halberd, cruise, etc all work fine.
  • Maybe avoid norfair, which gives them the room to camp, and many ledges to play around with. Any other large stage would probably be avoidable as well, such as japes.
Discussion for Mario begins on post 938:



Mario: (65/35)

General Matchup:
  • Mario is one of the better combo characters in the game, given that he has surprisingly fast aerials that chain well together. He also has a few quirks as well, such as the cape, fludd, and good oos options.
  • Mario has priority in a few areas, probably his best is in his up b given the invincibility frames, but his fsmash also has great range and priority as well. Also consider how moves like the fludd and cape work. Bair is probably the only other gw move that has any sizeable range.
  • Mario does lack a bit in the killing department, and usually has to rack up quite a bit of damage. Fsmash is his notable kill move, which overshadows most of his other options. Dsmash, upsmash, and bthrow are good too, but usually require a lot more damage on gw to work.
  • Mario's edgeguarding attempts in this matchup will be pretty useless, so aside from fludd's or a random fireball he think you won't be able to bucket, the offstage dept is bad for him. Overall he'll just have to hog and hit you with a nair or dair likely.
  • Mario has the cape and fireballs to distract you while he recovers, so watch out for these when you go out after him. Make good use of weak fairs, keys, bacon, etc to push him farter out.
  • Mario's combos are really where he shines. Up airs, uptilts, nairs, dairs, fairs, bairs all combo really well and hurt when in strings. Use up b to escape these to safety.
  • Mario's roll is a bit above average and the dthrow to dsmash doesn't work, so upthrows are better. Nairing and upair spamming are pretty average on mario. Overall don't expect any added combo potential on mario.

General Strategies:
  • Mario players will likely not spam fireballs against you to avoid filling the bucket. That doesn't mean they won't use them at all though, they can either bait bucket shots to punish you, or they can throw them in when they know you won't be able to bucket them. Overall though, the use of the fireballs will be cut back.
  • If mario catches you in a combo, make good use of your up b to escape, and avoid being predictable on your way down. If you don't get out of combos from mario they can hurt for sure.
  • If you space any aerial too close to mario's shield, they can use their up b to hit you out as an oos option. This even works against the turtle when your spacing is too close to mario. If you find yourself key spamming the back of his shield, then you will find yourself eating a lot of up b's for it.
  • Mario is capable of inducing hitlag on your turtle by spraying water on it from the fludd. This is known as fihl and can put you in a bad situation, due to the added lag. Keep an eye on mario if he's charged at all as an innocent bair could go wrong.
  • Overall, keep your spacing tight, and be aggressive off the stage to force early deaths on mario. He doesn't have any excessive keep away range, so he will be running away a lot to try and force mistakes on you. If you can keep a decent amount of pressure on him, you will do fine in the matchup.

Stages:
  • Many stages could go wrong for mario, mainly because he doesn't have an amazingly long recovery. RC, FO, etc would work. Also keep in mind that he doesn't have a very good vertical ko, so halberd/delphino would also work in your favor.
  • Close sides are probably the biggest thing to avoid. Jungle japes/green greens maybe are stages to avoid. Most neutrals should be fine for this matchup.
Discussion for Pokemon Trainer begins on post 990:



Pokemon Trainer: (65/35)

General Matchup:
  • Charizard: Excellent range and strength. However these attributes usually come at the cost of speed, whereas his fast moves usually lack these. Poor mobility can also hurt charizard in this matchup.
    Ivysaur: A good keep away game and decent strength, although he'll probably have a hard time landing a kill. Poor recovery and movement detriment ivysaur the most.
    Squirtle: Very fast, in both movement speed and attack speed. While his aerials lack the range needed to get in on gw, he can bait and run for some time to land attacks. Lacks a bit in ko potential.
  • Charizard: Rock smash is the move to watch out for here, its very strong, and the rock bits can move through your disjointed attacks, even the turtle. Fsmash, upsmash, bair, and up b (super armor) have pretty decent range too look out for.
    Ivysaur: Bair, jab, dtilt, up b, and neutral b all have range that can cut through your attacks.
    Squirtle: Upsmash is probably his longest range attack that could possibly break through any of your attacks, not too much to look out for here.
  • Charizard: Theres a pretty good amount of kill potential here w/ charizard. All of his smashes, up b, ftilt, fair, and rock smash all have great kill potential, gw should be most worried when facing charizard at high percents.
    Ivysaur: Main kill moves are up smash, forward smash, up air, dash attack, fair, and even up b are good for killing although some are a bit situational.
    Squirtle: Only really good kill moves are upsmash and dthrow, however the fair, when fresh can land a surprise kill as well.
  • Charizard: Edgeguarding would have to consist of rock smashes offstage possibly, but will have to stay on the stage for the most part.
    Ivysaur: There really isn't anything that would be worth it for ivysaur to go offstage, pestering you with razor leafs is probably the best option.
    Squirtle: Can chase off the stage, but none of his aerials can really directly combat gw's recovery options. All three of these characters will probably have to settle for an edgehog to a ledgehopped aerial.
  • Charizard: Waste his jumps in any way possible, usually bacon/fairs work well enough here. Don't underestimate his glide/up b and an edgehog should be feasible.
    Ivysaur: This is usual for ivysaur to deal with, but fairs to hogs really do ruin him. Watch out for the razor leaf to drop you from the ledge.
    Squirtle: Harder to edgeguard given the better aerial speed, but the same principles apply to squirtle that do to charizard.
  • Charizard: Not really that heavy of a combo character, more of a long range swatter to rack damage up and go for the kill. Rock smash, fire breath, tilts, etc are good for this.
    Ivysaur: Most combos try to set you up for a bullet seed, nair autocancels into it well. Fortunately, gw is light and can di out pretty quickly. Tilts, up b's, etc all can be used in combos.
    Squirtle: A very heavily combo based character, its easier for me to come up with attacks that don't combo, mainly being his forward/dsmash, and his water gun probably. Jabs are 1 frame to execute, and link many combos together. Ftilt, up tilt, up air are extremely dangerous combo moves.
  • Charizard: Is heavy, thus can buffer out of the dthrow/dsmash combo, however, his buffer roll is pretty short so tech chasing is possible. Up throws work too, given he doesn't have that many options to return down, also a large frame allows for very damaging nair combos.
    Ivysaur: Also heavy, AND boasts long roll lengths, probably want to up throw most of the time here. Decent sized frame, and poor up air escaping ability will likely get him into a lot of trouble with nair/upair spamming.
    Squirtle: Good roll lengths, but can be hit by the dsmash, so certainly use the dthrow occasionally when they won't expect it. Good aerial speed will probably make it difficult to chase him in the air, but its doable.

General Strategies:
  • Charizard is about boasting your range at the right times, and avoiding his. Rock smash can be tricky to work around if used right, as can the fire breath. Bucketing is an option, however its a really weak bucket, and might get you into more trouble than its worth. Watch out for his good strength as well, which can ko you well under 100 if you aren't careful. Overall i would say he certainly has the tools to do decently against gw, likely a 6/4 gw matchup.
  • Ivysaur on paper, has the means to shut gw down, but would require near perfect zoning and spacing, which with poor movement speed can be tricky. Razorleaf can't be bucketed, and can certainly force you to move around it, and the bair out reaches all of your attacks. Given those advantages, he doesn't do well when under excessive pressure, and of course can die very early from gimps off stage, which gw does well. Since his spacing attacks are slow, and gw's air speed is high, its difficult for him to zone gw. This is likely a 7/3 or 65/35 for gw.
  • Squirtle on paper probably does really bad on paper, given he has nothing to outreach gw and is incredibly light. His ko moves, upsmash is a bit telegraphed/not amazingly strong, and the dthrow, while quick does go right for the corner, making it easier to bucket brake. It would probably take squirtle quite some time to kill gw, while gw can kill him likely under 100 every stock. However, squirtle is quite fast and certainly capable of maneuvering around gw's attacks to punish. He also might be able to induce hitlag on your turtle with the water gun as well. Given his poor range and weight, its probably a 7/3 or 65/35 as well.
  • Overall these characters have the means to do decently against gw, but suffer a lot from the basic mechanics they were programmed with, ie the stamina. Against squirtle, if you play keep away you can take away his kill potential, probably forcing a switch to charizard for the kill. Charizard is easily combo'd and while strong, might have a hard time landing kills. Ivysaur probably does the worst vs gw and will probably want to be avoided. Given that it is possible to play very patient with these characters, they will suffer a lot from stamina problems. Work with this, and their generally poor recoveries to ensure a win.

Stages:
  • Anything that makes it hard to recover, FO, RC, etc work well. Neutrals probably work well against the pkmn as well.
  • Avoid stages with easy recovering, like norfair, japes, brinstar etc.
Discussion for Lucas begins on post 1057:



Lucas: (75/25)

General Matchup:
  • Lucas has a strong projectile game, very fast kill potential, and is pretty quick.
  • His priority lies in his disjointed attacks, which is most of them. The ones with range are the ones to look out for, like his bat, ftilt, upsmash, dair, bair, etc. These moves certainly have the potential to interrupt you if placed correctly.
  • Kill moves, at least against gw, will have to be almost entirely fsmashes. The move is freakishly fast, incredibly strong, has decent range, its one of the best smashes. Other kill moves are upsmash (very slow though), dsmash, and possibly up air, or a random spike (bair, dair).
  • To recover, lucas has a few options. He can zap jump and magnet pull to drastically increase the distance he can move by only using his double jump. On top of that pkt2 has great range and he has a tether as well. However, fairs can interrupt the zap jump and it can be risky. The bucket can steal the thunder killing lucas, and the up b can push him too far away, also killing him. They're best bet is to sneak around gw and grapple, which can be tricky with so many lingering hitboxes. Keep fairs in their way, and have a method to steal their up b.
  • They don't have a lot to edgeguard with that would keep them out of risk, possibly a pk fire. They're best bet is to ledge hog and wait for gw to go over and score an aerial.
  • Lucas has a few combos, dthrow to uptilt works at very low percents. Dtilt to fsmash can be a combo if it trips you. Theres also a few setups with the dair that can work at higher percents for fsmashes.
  • Lucas can't buffer a roll for the dthrow, so dthrow when you can expect no tech, and his tech roll isn't amazing either. There's quite a few things he can b stick etc, so i would probably do mostly dthrows, upthrows for the surprise. A small frame makes it semi difficult to combo, but the usual stuff should work.

General Strategies:
  • His gameplay is pretty dependent on good zoning with projectiles and good use of his hitboxes to set up into hits with the bat. Bucketing really hurts his zoning game, and when trying to approach, lucas usually gets swatted away in the air or on the ground by the dtilt. This can make trying to get anywhere near gw a complete pain. Also, almost none of his aerials can out prioritize anything gw has, also making it really hard.
  • His recovery options are quite limited against gw, mainly because of the bucket/upair/up b and lingering hitboxes. This can make it incredibly difficult for them to make it back to the stage, cutting their stocks drastically short often times.
  • This is matchup is rated so heavily in gw's favor because he has every means to shut down lucas defensive and offensive game. His recovery falters very hard when facing against gw as well. His one saving grace in this matchup is probably not having too hard of a time killing gw, however it will be hard for lucas to rack up damage.

Stages:
  • Rainbow Cruise/Frigate Orpheon probably work well against lucas. Any neutral probably would be fine too.
  • Avoid brinstar and norfair, those tend to be lucas's best stages.
Discussion for Captain Falcon on post 1139:



Captain Falcon: (8/2)

General Matchup:
  • Captain falcon is one of the faster characters in the game, however he lacks a lot of priority, kill set ups, and recovery patterns.
  • His range is pretty bad, only really seeing anything useful in his uair, nair, uptilt, and a few other moves. Priority also lacks in a similar way.
  • KO potential is there, just difficult to use. Fsmash, knee, etc are decent kill moves, just probably too slow or difficult to land to be worth while. Its likely that they will have to make use of an up air or a bair at high percents to kill gw.
  • Captain falcon might be able to land a random aerial on you offstage, however its really risky. The usually quick hog to aerial is probably their only good option for edgeguarding.
  • To edgeguard falcon, a few hits with weak fairs can really put a damper in his up b. Also slowfall dairs work great to either stage spike him or set up for something else.
  • His combos are usually a few nairs/upairs stringed together, and im told there is a percent where his dair can combo into a knee, other than that though, he doesn't have too much combo potential.
  • Captain falcon is a heavy character, which helps and hurts you of course. He can buffer a roll to avoid the dsmash out of a dthrow, and has a decent roll. He's a semi-fastfaller and doesn't have amazing aerial speed, so up airs and nair will probably ruin his time in the air.

General Strategies:
  • Overall, this matchup is very very simple. Learn to play your spacing and he'll have a very hard time getting around it. Due to a lack or projectile, or any ranged attacks at all to zone you with, he'll basically have to trick you in order to land a hit on you, and even then it probably won't lead to much.

Stages:
  • Any stage works fine, look for ways to hurt his recovery, and play where you usually feel comfortable.
  • Avoid norfair likely, thats the only stage that comes to mind that would maybe help captain.
Discussion for Sonic begins on post 1172:



Sonic: (65/35)

General Matchup:
  • Sonic is by far the fastest character in the game in terms of movement, which can be some trouble for you. His moves aren't really slow either, and if you aren't keeping a tight game, he will get in on you with no problem.
  • Sonic is known for having very little priority, one of the reasons he's so low on the tier list. However, he does have decent range in some areas. Ftilt has very good range, that will beat your dtilt. Dtilt, fsmash, bair, upair, dsmash, all have good range that can even sometimes find ways around your hitboxes.
  • Sonic also has a hard time landing kills, but if you aren't careful, they can sneak them in. Fsmash is probably his strongest one, but it isn't the fastest of smashes. On the same token, when in close range, dsmash is also quite strong but a tad slow. Other aerials that can kill are bair and up air when used higher up.
  • For edgeguarding, sonics usually try for bair stage spikes, spring drops to interrupt/stage spike, or just general interruption offstage. Gw can get through the spring/bair with up b pretty easily, so they would have to settle for an aerial offstage. However nair should beat all of sonic's aerials quite easily. They may have to settle for a hog to aerial or getup attack.
  • Edge guarding sonic can certainly be tricky. Given the option, sonic will usually recovery high in order to avoid getting gimped by gw. You can harrass them with up airs or aerials on their way down, but decent air speed means they will usually get back mostly unscathed. If they choose to recover from below the stage grabbing them out of their up b will gimp them (just let them break out), or a dtilt/hog will work if they try to aerial/sweet spot the ledge.
  • Sonic has a ton of combos/mixups. Side/down b's can be jumped out of after hitting you to have follow ups (springs/upairs/fairs/bairs/etc). Upthrows can string into up air/fairs if they chase you properly. Sonic has the mobility to chase for a lot of good combo's so watch out.
  • Sonic can buffer out of the d/throwsmash combo, however his tech roll isn't too long so tech chases are certainly possible. Side/down b's certainly help sonic get out of up air spams, and his frame is sorta small, so nair combos get hurt a bit.
  • Also keep in mind that sonic has the ability to cancel his spindashes with shield to stop himself before going. This can be a big mindgame in itself in close combat because you might expect him to hit you, airdodge, and then he would shieldcancel to a grab.

General Strategies:
  • Overall sonic is a very hit and run character, especially against gw. Understand that you DO have large openings between your amazing hitboxes, and if anyone will be able to punish you for it, its sonic. He's very good at racking damage up, and a well placed smash can have you scratching your head as to where your stock went.
  • Dtilt is good at stopping sonic out of his dashes/dash attacks etc, however a running powershield into a grab stops this. Be weary that sonic will likely land a lot of grabs against you to help rack damage up. Make sure to up b to safety to avoid long strings from being set up against you.
  • Patience is a virtue in this matchup. Sonic players are very aware and used to the fact that they will probably have to wait a long time to be able to capitalize on openings from gw. If you can play patient and semi defensive, it can be very hard for them to get in. If you get too aggressive, sonic can certainly move around your hitboxes and then retaliate afterwards. Play around with your style vs sonic, but its likely that having to settle on a defensive one will yield the best results.

Stages:
  • Many stages work for and against sonic, although i imagine anything that helps him kill sooner would help him out. Stages like green greens etc should probably be avoided.
  • All the neutrals work well, however, open space helps sonic set things up, so avoid final d if at all possible.
Discussion for Jigglypuff begins on post 1351:



Jigglypuff: (80/20)

General Matchup:
  • Jigglypuff is a very floaty, aerial, mobile character that can be a deadly edgeguarder in the right hands. She's very light and not very strong, but can be really hard to hit if played well.
  • Her best priority/range is probably found in her pound, which shouldn't be taken lightly. She also gets invincibility frames on her rest, which can allow her to interrupt many attacks. Bair/fair/fsmash also have pretty good range too.
  • Her best ko moves are likely to be fair, smashes, and possibly a rest if she can sneak it in. These moves aren't particularly strong, but they can kill you at around the 120 range for sure.
  • Jigglypuff is probably one of the most aggressive edgeguarders in the game. Given that she is really floaty, has a lot of jumps, and a very strong forward air, she can really do some damage offstage. However, gw can interrupt all of jigglypuff's aerials with his own, she would only be able to guard gw if she can catch him off guard.
  • Although jigglypuff has a lot of jumps, she would have a hard time getting around his hitboxes. She has no way to effectively lower or raise herself around gw, and would have to move forward or back, which could put her in even more of a bad situation.
  • She doesn't have any particularly devastating combos, keep in mind that her dair can trip into smashes, and some of her tilts can combo into boosted smashes if you aren't ready for them.
  • Jigglypuff is too light to buffer a roll out of your downsmash, and she has poor roll lengths so dthrow should be your bet most of the time. Up air spam also works really well vs jiggz because she is so floaty and doesn't have any good b stick/momentum shifting tricks.

General Strategies:
  • Overall this matchup you will outkill, outrange, outprioritize, outrecover, essentially do everything better than jiggz, which is why i gave it an 8/2. If you just pressure her a lot with aerials, you'll rack up damage quick and be able to kill her with an upsmash at around 70 damage or so.
  • Things to keep in mind, if you jab combo her, she can di into you and rest. Pound can reach through your nair. Her boosted upsmash goes a surprising distance, and its pretty fast too. Don't underestimate how fast the fair can kill when its fresh.

Stages:
  • Best stage to fight her is RC likely, due to early upsmash kills, but halberd works well too.
  • Avoid green greens/norfair if possible, she does probably the best on those stages. Most neutrals should work out well for you.

Also I would like to thank neb for the pictures, he's done a great job with them.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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A2ZOMG
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#2
Toon Link I agree is probably a 4/6 matchup, in favor of Toon Link naturally.

I think Toon Link is a bit better at escaping U-air stalling than most other characters, because he can drop bombs (fortunately you can U-air those back up if you wish), and if he manages to move outside of G&W's range with DI, his D-air can bring him to the ground fast, and it's fairly low lag even when it hits the ground, and it seems to send out a shockwave that makes it a little harder to punish him if I recall. Fortunately, he can't really D-air through your U-air because your U-air's pushback beats that anyway.

Yeah, Toon Link also basically has the best attacks with which to kill G&W. His U-smash is fast and deadly (unlike Link's which mainly is a damage dealer with high priority). U-air can beat your D-air. Yeah.

I can't remember if TL's D-air has more priority than your Up-B...

Other minor things I find annoying is how most characters start up smash attacks faster than G&W.
 

Lotsa_Spaghetti

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
133
Location
Seattle, WA
#3
I've only got 2 pieces of advice for this matchup

Try to take advantage of the landing lag on his D-air. When toon link's right above you, and does his D-air, instead of sheilding it, spot dodge it and so he misses you and hits the ground, allowing Mr. G&W a free down-smash.

Try your best to spam dtilt over the edge to edgeguard, it just might work.
 

cutter

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,316
Location
Getting drilled by AWPers
#4
It really helps to know how to use Dtilt effectively so you can nullify Toon Link's projectiles. Once you have the timing down on blocking arrows/boomerang/bombs, you shouldn't have too many problems against projectile spam. Dtilt is so good in this matchup because it will outrange all his sword attacks (IIRC).

Toon Link has some nice smashes, but G&W's are even better. The toon is very lightweight and he will die easily to any one of your smashes when he's in the 80% range.

Don't spam Dair. Toon's Uair, like OBM has already stated, "beats" it (I've had it many times where both attacks will hit simultaneously, but it's worse for you to trade blows like that).

@A2ZOMG: Up B will beat Toon Link's Dair every time IF you are still in the invinciblity frames. Otherwise, it's vice versa. Just use Uair to stop the downward momentum of his Dair.

To sum up:
- Use Dtilt, both for blocking his projectiles and using it as an attack
- Minimize Dair spam
- Don't forget the turtle
- Finish him off when TL gets to ~ 80-90%
 

Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,810
Location
Melbourne, FL
#5
Nice, glad you took the initiative to go ahead and set this up, ._.b.

IMO-
Alright so the toughest thing about this match up is that TL has a unique style that not only is incredible long range, but also mid-range to close range. And this all weighs upon the use of non-bucketable projectiles, one of G&W's big problems and his powerful swordsmanship. The key to this brawl is being a bit more defensive while keeping aggressiveness, stay in his face so he can't use his projectiles.

Boomerang.
This move can hit you from the front and back. Its slow, so TL players either try to get a cheap hit in, or intentionally whip it behind you and scurry here and there for it too home back and stun you with its return quality; they're trying to open some windows for their stronger attacks.

The best way to sever any of their plans/setups is to cancel it out right on the spot, if your approaching, bair is the best because its lack of punishable lag, but if your being defensive, just negate it with a quick manhole. Canceling it is more efficient because its quick, giving you time to counter while also protecting you from grabs.

If you get set-up, shield, spotdodge, or roll on its return, though if TL is already on pursuit, your best option lays in the hands of your trusty up-b (lifesaver). Remember he can angle the boomerang, which means you need to jump a lot in this match.

Arrows.
TL's arrows have short range when uncharged, they pretty much have a short mid-level life then sink down quickly. But if he charges it for a good while, try to get behind him and punish, shield or jump over it. Turns out theres a lot of tricks for arrows, I'm not up to date with them, so hopefully others can assist in that department.

Bombs.
They have short trajectory but a wide explosion coverage, switch between shielding, grabbing and tossing, or up-b'ing them when situations get intense, do not spotdodge. While air borne, they might try to soften their recovery by dropping bombs then shooting down with a dair, uair is your buddy in this situation.
__________________________________________

· TL has short arms, which means his sword wingspan is also short, space and approach with bairs or mix it up with chef.

· Chef is a good advance since it chops up his "hit and follow-up" strategy due to him having to get out of the way and dodge.

· Do not uair dairs unless they are coming from high altitude, just don't do it.

· Gimp his recovery, its okay to go out there and throw some boxes or feed your turtle.

· Up-b beats pretty much everything.
 

napZzz

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
5,295
Location
cg, MN
#7
chef is'nt smart, too use, your forgetting he has three spammable projectiles to **** your *** while you start cheffin from a distance. Try and stay on toon link and dont give him too much breathing room....because if you let him get away he will start a spam fest. When this happens, your best bet is too just try and wait for openings inbetween his projectiles to weave through. He cant set up a solid wall of projectiles to keep you from coming through at all, remember that. Just play smart, watch your spacing, and try to attack when you are fairly sure you can do it. Thats all I can offer after everyone else has posted everything else here lol
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
Administrator
GRimer
Rankings Team
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#8
I don't have that many problems with T.L. actually. Could just be me though.

Here are some general strats I use against TL:

Approach with nair. If he has is rang out, you can nair into up B and the rang will miss you on the way back. If you hit him with nair otherwise, it set's up well for follow ups.

Approach with fair more then you would against other characters until your opponent catches on. TL's like to run away when you are approaching them, so they can get a projectile out and then approach you. Take this to your advantage. If you miss your fair, they probably won't be punishing you very well.

Stay in the air..a lot. I up b very often in this match. I also like to bait his uair then punish him. You can do this by Dairing and missing on purpose. Or Dairing from really high up, so that you can airdodge with the momentum and then punish his uair.

After I connect with a bair, I like to run under them and wait. They almost always airdodge, and it's a free hit. If they don't, you can shield an attack, or just hit them with nair.

Dair really wrecks TL. I think most of you are having trouble, because you dair while TL is not using a move, and he just Uairs you. But dair is VERY useful against T.L. Approach in the air with fullhops against TL. You can nair/bair or whatever. If they try to jump and attack, use your double jump and dair. They will miss you and be punished by your dair, which you can immediatly follow up with up B. Right when you hit them with up B use Uair and you should fly down and be able to follow up pretty well.

TLDR version:

Use Dair to counter TL's air game. Approach in the air, not the ground. When TL trys to hit you, dair cuts through all but uair, and just don't dair if he uairs, because you are attacking second.

If anyone has any specific questions about the match-up I can help. I have a lot of experience vs toon link.
 
Joined
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MrEscalator
#9
Hm. You all have some really good analysis's for the Toon Link matchup. I've never had many problems with him before, but he's also not someone I face regularly.

Another thing that we should include are stages to either counterpick or avoid. Which stages does Toon Link prefer in this matchup and which ones help G&W's playstyle vs TL? I would typically choose a stage that I like, but I'm lost to which stages may actually help Toon Link more.

So what stages seem to work better here? I'm pretty sure most of us already know which stages work the best for G&W, so it's mostly deciding which of those is the very best.

Something like Rainbow Cruise to force TL into the air?

It would be really cool to see stage selections for every character!
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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#10
For stages, Rainbow Cruise is easily your best bet. Amazing G&W stage. You can avoid TL pretty easily the whole time and make really good use of your Up B to maneuver the stage. Stay under platforms and spam nair :). Uair also tends to make people SD on this stage.
 
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
7
#11
I agree with Hylian. Most of the advantages with TL are robbed from him on rainbow cruise or rumble falls (Jesus forbid you from playing on that awful stage). If you find yourself on a normal stage, however, I would do one thing throughout most of the game: Get him in the air, UAir stall, wait for him to do something stupid or mess up, hit with smash attack or FAir, repeat. The UAir is the glory of MR.GaW in most situations, but here especially. I've killed several TLs and MKs (just cpu dummies, but still) at 0% using a constant UAir stall.

On stages like final destination, he might just kill himself, on walkoff stages, you might be able to toss him into a stage hazard, and on the mansion, baah. Get him off the roof of the mansion.

This matchup will be cake once the infinite second jump glitch becomes common knowledge, I think, but until then, make him fight you on your terms, not his.

Remember, I am a noob and may be wrong about this entirely. I would like to learn more about this matchup though.
 

Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,810
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Melbourne, FL
#12
chef is'nt smart, too use, your forgetting he has three spammable projectiles to **** your *** while you start cheffin from a distance. Try and stay on toon link and dont give him too much breathing room....because if you let him get away he will start a spam fest. When this happens, your best bet is too just try and wait for openings inbetween his projectiles to weave through. He cant set up a solid wall of projectiles to keep you from coming through at all, remember that. Just play smart, watch your spacing, and try to attack when you are fairly sure you can do it. Thats all I can offer after everyone else has posted everything else here lol
He can't really set up a wall of projectiles if he has to worry about chef and G&W, I was thinking more on the lines of distracting and stunning with the chef while following it up simultaneously to throw on some pressure. Its not too hard to toss two foods then proceed, thats like saying he's firing projectiles every second.
 
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
78
#13
Um, yeah, his arrow spam is faster than your chef spam, and they usually go right through your foods, so maybe that's not such a good idea, Neb. Maybe just for edgeguarding. Also, I call G&W vs. regular Link.
 
Joined
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MrEscalator
#14
Neb wasnt suggesting you use it in a place where he can charge his arrow. You're supposed to use it strategically as a way to pressure Toon Link. In fact, you should rarely ever use chef when you arent pressuring the opponent unless you happen to be baiting a laser to fill your bucket.

Just slinging off a few bits is well enough as they're still going and you can start your attack.
 

doodmahn

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
223
Location
Savannah, Georgia
#18
I haven't faced any good TLs yet except for one that crushed my in a tourney. My advice?

Don't ever be directly above or below him unless you plan on getting the hell out of there.
 

omegablackmage

Certified Lion Rider
Joined
Oct 16, 2004
Messages
1,902
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Spencer, MA
#21
Toon Link: (4/6)

General Matchup:
  • Toon link has an exceptional projectile game, utilizing arrows, bombs, and boomerangs to get in on GW's range and priority. All of the projectiles are unbucketable.
  • Toon link has a fair amount of priority on some of his attacks, namely his dair and upair. You will find the upair consistently beating your dair, which is one of the main ways GW approaches from the air.
  • Toon Link has an exceptional amount of ways to kill GW. Dsmash and fsmash are strong moves that have particular uses (either good range or speed). Upsmash is the most deadly, allowing toon link to run in quickly and pull out his upsmash, giving this move good range and speed. This move will kill GW quite early, so watch out for it. Up air, when fresh will also kill surprisingly quick.
  • Toon Link's recovery is potentially one of the hardest to gimp in the game. Because he is such a floaty character, he is able to float below the stage very far, use a double jump and then use his up b (with a good priority) to cover incredible distances. This recovery path is the hardest for GW to punish.
  • Other than projectile spamming, and the very risky dair off the stage, toon link is nearly unable to edgeguard GW.
  • Toon Link has an exceptional combo game, making use of his multiple bair chains, grapple setups, projectiles, and uptilts that can rack up quite a bit of damage.
  • GW has no particular problem comboing Toon Link aside from needing to watch out for the occasional high priority aerial.

General Strategies:
  • The best method to beat TL's projectiles are to learn which moves will cancel out projectiles. Dtilt and Bair are the best at canceling most projectiles, even bombs if spaced correctly.
  • Most of gw's approaching attacks (fair, bair, etc) and defensive attacks (dtilt) will be able to out range TL's approaches or defenses.
  • To avoid getting hit by tl's exceptional smashes and kill moves, learn to optimize your spacing. If you can avoid riskily throwing out dairs (gets countered by an up air) and keep your spacing very tight, you shouldn't have too much trouble avoiding the kill moves. If you get hit by the first part of the fsmash or dsmash I believe it is possible to avoid the second hit by smash di'ing the first straight up and then jumping out.
  • Some ways to edgeguard toon link are to learn to edgehog at the right times. If you can keep your invincibility frames as he moves by you, you can punish him by ledgehopping an up air (if the spacing is right), a key as he lands on the ground (pop up for a nair possibly), or a nair (good combo starter). Other options would be to get very aggressive with a fair off the stage or to try to cut through his up b with a dair.
  • To avoid the back air chains against tl, make sure to di away every time.
  • Learn to use the up air well, as it will slow down the dair (allowing room for you to punish tl) and it will usually open up a free smash if you can get under his up b.

Stages:
  • Rainbow Cruise works well as you can maneuver the stage much better than tl and avoid his projectiles quite easily
  • Avoid big open stages like FD, the more platforms, the better
 

Lotsa_Spaghetti

Smash Apprentice
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#22
Metaknight=Pain in the rear
But he's certainly not unbeatable. The best thing that G&W can do to metaknight is easily dthrow to dsmash him. Also remember Turtle>Gliding attack. Utilize Dtilt a lot to stop him from dash attacking or grabbing you.
Meta Knight's Down Smash comes out way too fast. It's crazy. Also watch out for his Shuttle loop and try not to get sucked into his tornado.
That's all i got. I'd say this matchup is about even.
 

cutter

Smash Champion
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#23
The dash attack and Chef will both beat the tornado while the turtle can't. I'm pretty sure we've nailed that down.

I don't know if it's just me, but when I play MKs and they start to feel the pressure, they like to use the tornado FAR more than usual.

MK can be tricky, but it's easier than TL because MK MUST approach you because he has no projectiles. Take advantage of Chef a lot in this knowing you have a projectile that can beat the tornado as well. :)

You are right Lotsa_Spaghetti, MK's Dsmash does come out extremely fast. It has a 5 frame startup making it able to beat grabs at times. Be ready for an Up B or Dsmash when you're in the 120s-130s, because MK will want to quickly finish you off.

Dtilt is great as always.
 

Ruuku

Smash Lord
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#24
I already posted some stuff in the other matchup thread for Metaknight so I'll just post it again here.

Yo Hylian, I haven't really read the other posts so in the following, you may find some stuff that others have already mentionedMetaknight definitely is one of the most popular character in my tournament scene, due to the fact that he is an easy character to pick up and is still excellent once the player gains experience. As a result, I have quite a bit of experience in that match up.

When it comes to Florida MK players, there only are certain moves you will see during the match and I'm going to explain in which situation they are likely to be used against G&W:

Neutral B - against a G&W that isn't cautious with retreating b.airs, MK can easily punish with that move if G&W whiffs or if most of the hits from the b.air don't hit his shield. This move can rack up damage fast and just like G&W's b.air, it can be spaced to that it is difficult to punish. It requires good analysis and timing but G&W can actually punish it with a dash shield canceled down smash after blocking it then following MK when he starts retreating.

Down smash - this move kills, has fast recovery, good range, and good priority. MK will use it very often to punish or kill. It can also be used to force his opponent to spot dodge then get an almost free grab. When I face this move I usually don't try to punish it with anything other than a full hop fast fall d.air.

up B - this ridiculous move can destroy G&W as it can kill at low percentages with its high knock back power. To add some safety to the move, MK can and will follow up with a landing lag less glide attack which also is a kill move. If both attack are dodged or blocked, MK can follow up with neutral B, down smash, or another up B. It actually is possible for G&W to block the up B then counter attack with a SH n.air before MK goes into glide. Otherwise it also is possible to escape the glide attack and in turn the follow up, by dashing being MK right after the up B.

d.air - MK will use this move to edge guard, pressure, or space his opponent. He also may use it with a short hop out of shield to punish. As far as edge guard goes, it seems that G&W's up B usually beats it. For that reason I usually wait until G&W is pretty low before doing the up B. That way I was a chance to hit MK into the stage.

f.air - MK will use to to edge guard as much as d.air. It will also be used in a Wall of Pain fashion to keep G&W away. G&W's b.air usually holds its own against it but I've encountered situations in which MK's f.air beat G&W's b.air.

f.tilt/ d.tilt - MK will often use it following a f.air or d.air. both come out fast and f.tilt can go into a second hit which sends the opponent airborne on hit. I haven't tested this but G&W's d.tilt may be important in this situation.

Here's my general strategy against MK:

First of all, if I ever am 6-7 characters length away from MK, I start using neutral B. A lot MK player like to do dash attacks or running grabs from that distance. When it comes to approach, I pretty much only use retreating b.airs on block, then go into jab->grab/ jab combo->d.tilt. If MK whiffs an aerial, I tend to punish with a f.air. If the b.air hits, I usually go into another b.air because MK sometimes is able to stop a n.air with his f.air. If I want to successfully lend a n.air, I have to fast fall right after the b.air then dash under MK into a short hop n.air, in order to be safer.

As for edge guard neutral B is good to force MK to recover where you want him to. I like using f.air and up B to edge guard. But before anything else, down smash rapes MK. It comes out fast, kills early, and I often am able to punish some of MK's aerials if I can spot dodge them. I also like to dash at MK and short hop air dodge through him then go into down smash, grab, or stutter step side smash.

I hope any of this helped. This actually is one of those match ups in which I prefer using Snake or ROB.
Some extra stuff:
Uair actaully works pretty well against MK's glide attack. I need to work on that matchup a bit more but I'm almost certain that you can block/spot dodge MK's Shuttle Loop then SH Uair him before he can do the glide attack.

Against the MK's Mach Tornado, if MK doesn't do it close enough to G&W, G&W can B.air it. Other than that, I've been able to cancel it with a down smash.
 

napZzz

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#26
Don't bother, just pick snake or a meta knight counter (idk if there are any other ones). If you do get stuck with this match up....I think that meta knight out prioritzes g&w in the air, and I think the only way to stand a chance is to play *****y and just wait for him to attack and dodge, hit run away, and keep doing this over and over again and finish with an fsmash or dsmash. Uair stalling is kinda good too I guess. Gives you time to think of what you need to do next and refreshes yo moves.
 

xYz

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#27
Don't bother, just pick snake or a meta knight counter (idk if there are any other ones). If you do get stuck with this match up....I think that meta knight out prioritzes g&w in the air, and I think the only way to stand a chance is to play *****y and just wait for him to attack and dodge, hit run away, and keep doing this over and over again and finish with an fsmash or dsmash. Uair stalling is kinda good too I guess. Gives you time to think of what you need to do next and refreshes yo moves.
LOL, get outta here... you obviously do not know the match up. GW destroys MK... for sure.
it will get proven sooner or later.
 

omegablackmage

Certified Lion Rider
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#29
can we get some numbers in here? i'm saying for now imo thats its a 5/5 matchup, but i'd wanna lean towards the gw advantage if i had to pick one, especially all the new up air/up b things we're finding out.

Gw has more range and power than mk for sure. MK has a good bit more speed imo on the ground, but that seems to be easily canceled by the dtilt. Bair rapes quite a bit of things, and now that tornado spamming isn't really an option for them (up b trick), they can't resort to anything to win.
 

Neb

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#30
In my opinion its a 4/6.
We have more advantages over him than he has us, and a lot of the trouble G&W causes MK can only be defended with Tornado, which is now a bit more avoidable/punishable. Plus he has no projectiles, and a lack of many KO'ing moves, and he can be predicable, etc.
 

Ruuku

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#31
G&W > MK... seriously.

any FL smasher can tell you.
Ruuku can actually vouche.
I actually think that the match is pretty even. G&W really only is lacking speed and can easily come back to the stage against MK. Other than that, G&W seem to have an answer for the majority of MK's arsenal, with more power and range. Nevertheless, as of now, I would most likely choose another one of my characters to play as if I encounter MK.

d-throw -> d-smash works guaranteed if the mk player doesn't tech correctly.
D-throw -> tech chase u-smash is really nasty too.

can we get some numbers in here? i'm saying for now imo thats its a 5/5 matchup, but i'd wanna lean towards the gw advantage if i had to pick one, especially all the new up air/up b things we're finding out.

Gw has more range and power than mk for sure. MK has a good bit more speed imo on the ground, but that seems to be easily canceled by the dtilt. Bair rapes quite a bit of things, and now that tornado spamming isn't really an option for them (up b trick), they can't resort to anything to win.
And I love ya for bringing up the up B stuff. I took that to practice mode with one of my teammates and it rapes pretty hard. Since someone let me borrow his Wii, I'll actually be able to check this type of stuff. :)
 

napZzz

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#33
WOW G&W doesnt really stand too much of a chance with mk though, he's very fast and believe it or not he does have easy killing ability. He can take out g&w in the air...beat him on the ground...what do you want to do?
 

omegablackmage

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#34
errr... i fail to see how mk beats gw in any of these situations. On the ground, dtilt will ruin any of mk's approaches, save the annoying b move approaches, which we have other ways to deal with those. In the air, gw beats him with range, power, priority... GW edgeguards mk better than mk can edgeguard gw. the only thing mk has on gw imo is speed.
 

cutter

Smash Champion
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#35
I hope you don't mind sidetracking a bit to talk about a different character, but I'd like to talk about Lucario for a minute.

I've been arguing forever on the Brawl matchup thread that G&W has a large advantage over Lucario. The argument started like a couple of weeks or so but a couple of Lucario users dragged the thread into a huge flamefest and IvanEva didn't want to give G&W the big check mark. Then I tried to restart the argument again and it's starting to turn into another mess.

I don't see how G&W doesn't have a huge advantage over Lucario. 4 big things why:

-Bucket >Aura Sphere
-Uair >> Lucario's Dair
-Turtle
-G&W kills very early which defeats the purpose of Aura

Can you guys help me out on this on the matchup thread? Thoughts? Comments? I really don't think G&W just has a small advantage over Lucario. I haven't had any trouble with him really.
 
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#38
I'm pretty sure most of the nuances in this Matchup was discussed in the old topic, and I don't think I can contribute anything new. I gave my insight last time around, so I'm content with leaving such a small post :D

One thing that wasn't discussed in the old topic was which stage makes a good counterpick. This is probably important to discuss because both MK and G&W share similar interests in stages, and it would be good to find out where they branch off.

Another idea:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174824
The luigi matchup thread is doing 2 day rotations opposed to weekly rotations for their matchups.

There will be a 2-day rotation for each character. For example, we have discussed Snake for 2 days, now we will move onto the next character. In the previous format, each character gets a week devoted to him/her. While this worked well, it would take 38 more weeks (or 9.5 months) to get every character on the roster.
It appears that most information is gathered early in the week, and not much happens in the second half. With TL, the most informative posts were gathered early, and I think we should decrease the downtime.

Now, it doesnt have to be 2 day rotations, but something to this affect would stimulate more discussion over other characters of interest.
 

cutter

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#39
Once we gather up all the data and OBM composes it into a recap, we can just move onto the next character.

I feel the next 3 characters we should discuss are:
- Snake
- Marth
- Donkey Kong

Working our way through the hardest matchups first like we've done and into the easier ones over time.

I think to speed things up, we should do 3 days per character. 2 is a bit too fast IMO.
 

DarkStraw

Smash Apprentice
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#40
GW does not **** MK period. Ive played some good MK's and ive gotten to the point where i can play evenly against them, but its not an easy matchup for sure. He's super fast and alot of GW's moves come out slow, if you use Bair too much you become predictable. The moves i use against GW that work pretty decent are, Bair, Downtilt, and short hop/full hop down air. The box works fine and can out range/prioritise MK's fair if you bring it out early, this also makes it so theres not as much landing lag, which is nice, but it wont do as much damage or knockback. Bair is one of your best options against MK so if your going to use it alot, you need to mix up how you use it. Theres several ways to approach MK with it.
First is the most obvious, run up to him, turn around and use a short hop Bair.
Second is approaching him, turn around and do a full hop, if he's just sitting there you can move around in the air alittle to screw with his head, maby use your second jump and then hit him with it. if youve been doing alot of normal Bair's then he will probably roll or something to aviod it, and then you can punish him by delaying in the air or using your second jump.
Third is approach him jump over his head past him then use your Bair. (its good to mix this one up with your downair, keep him guessing)

For Ko's Usually fsmash dosent work well against him unless he's spot doging alot. i usually try and get him with a downsmash or Fair when he's comming back. sometimes uair works too.

I think this thread here will help vs metaknight, and ill be trying to apply it to matches vs metaknight as well. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=176245
 
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