Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[infomon]

lol @ dr.mario guy

Kinzer: that doesn't matter for the priority interaction here, even if the SDR is at the weakest it can possibly get (4% but that can only happen from going up a hill or by burrowing through some stuff along its path lol), it will still clash with G&W's ground moves that do 14% or lower. So the G&W would need to be smashing...... and if Sonic's spindash rolling into G&W's smash attacks, the game is already over

 

[Kinzer]

I dunno man, I have a bad history with being hit out of my SDRs, so i just assume that it has been weakened.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yeah, powershielding a predictable down tilt is probably the solution for Sonic. I still see it should be a pretty potent keep away tool. 65-35 seems to be what everyone else is saying; I guess it's reasonable enough, and the guy I knew who played Sonic and was pretty good quit ages ago. Sonic's main virtue is unpredictability; it's one of the harder traits to evaluate...

Snake's grenades are easy to avoid? I mean, you can avoid them if you play smart and space really well and such, but easy? Have you ever played a good Snake? I don't think it's particularly obvious which one is worst anyway; it seems like something reasonable people could disagree on.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake's camping is far more active than Marth's, he forces you to move or get hit quite a bit. Marth sits there or Fairs and retreats or Dtilts and waits.

Marth actually presents a shield poking threat. Snake doesn't.

You can edgeguard Marth a lot easier than edgeguarding Snake. Snake can fly up high, drop a nikita/nade/c4 and B Reverse it. Marth is limited to either airdodging or Fair usually (the occasional counter if he isn't too far out). I dunno why you think Snake is easier to edgeguard, 99% of the time he is not.

You can't challenge Marth's range in the air. B-reverse mindgames only go so far for Snake and he still has to land either with an air dodge or a super laggy aerial. Also, Marth doesn't need to air dodge at all against G&W. If you set up intelligently, there are certain positions Snake can't recover from without taking a hit 99% of the time.

Snake can also Dthrow tech chase G&W retardedly easy, jab once and then either shield, regrab, Ftilt, etc. If the jab connects, it goes right into another grab/Ftilt/Utilt. Jab covers you standing still, shield covers him after the jab if you get up attack, Ftilt/Regrab catches you after the jab if you try to roll behind him, and he can also run forward and grab or Ftilt you after his jab if you roll away. Don't get me started on Dairing either, does a lot of damage and kills soon.

True, Snake can to a lot to G&W from a D-throw. Assuming he gets a grab.

D-air is easy to SDI.

Shielding is vulnerable to grabs, hence when Sonic approaches you either make a move or he can grab you. If you make a move, he can wait for it and punish you afterwards. It's kinda like Rock Paper Scissors.

1. Sonic runs towards you, you shield and he grabs you.
2. Sonic runs towards you, you Dtilt and beat his grab.
3. Sonic runs towards you, you Dtilt and his waited attack beats you.
4. Sonic runs towards you, you shield and his waited attack hits your shield and he gets punished or gains nothing.

Now, obviously that is quite over simplified, but you get the general idea that shielding is not flawless or near god like, it's just an option in the Rock Papers Scissors scheme of things.

Against characters like Sonic and Ike, Shielding oversimplifies the battle. I'm serious.

1. he grabs you, you take damage, you get to camp some more. Still in G&W's favor.
2. Sonic runs toward you D-tilt and F-smash stop him. Correct.
3. Impossible scenario. No seriously, it's not possible for Sonic to do that from a dash. If you clank, you get to shield before he can do anything else.
4. Yeah, point I'm trying to get across that rules this matchup in G&W's favor by far.

 

[infomon]

1. he grabs you, you take damage, you get to camp some more. Still in G&W's favor.

This right here is ummm..... wow, idk what to say.

3. Impossible scenario. No seriously, it's not possible for Sonic to do that from a dash. If you clank, you get to shield before he can do anything else.

Your Dtilt has 10 frames of cooldown lag, if Hotgarbage's data is to be believed. That gives us plenty of time to punish with a number of different attacks, yo. How long do you think it takes us to jab/tilt/dash-attack out of a dash?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Your Dtilt has 10 frames of cooldown lag, if Hotgarbage's data is to be believed. That gives us plenty of time to punish with a number of different attacks, yo. How long do you think it takes us to jab/tilt/dash-attack out of a dash?

10 frames of cooldown lag is SUPER fast. If you were already running towards G&W, the only way you could conceivably punish that is if his timing is REALLY bad. Ideally, G&W should be timing it so that the middle of the hitbox is still out when you get close. You have to shield or jump to stop yourself from running into that, and it's definitely going to take more than 10 frames to let down shield and punish or whatever nonsense.

 

[omegablackmage]

fact: snake is gw's worst matchup... unless your obm. lol

 

[DMG]

Marth actually presents a shield poking threat. Snake doesn't.

Then you are not playing good enough Snakes lol. Active camping is not about shield pressure, it is about forcing you to react or get hit, while the other person is still really safe. Marth has to at least get close to you to hit you, Snake can toss sh** and it makes YOU move or get hit. Who cares about shield poking, if Marth is threatening to poke your shield then he isn't really camping, now is he?

You can't challenge Marth's range in the air. B-reverse mindgames only go so far for Snake and he still has to land either with an air dodge or a super laggy aerial. Also, Marth doesn't need to air dodge at all against G&W. If you set up intelligently, there are certain positions Snake can't recover from without taking a hit 99% of the time.

True, Snake can to a lot to G&W from a D-throw. Assuming he gets a grab.

D-air is easy to SDI.

You can try ANY aerial vs Marth when he recovers, they are all threatening to him while he tries to recover especially Nair . His recovery is fairly straightforward and it orientated towards the edge (Upb is also Nasty against him since it sends him out horizontally). Snake can try to recover high, go for the edge, drop onto the stage from medium height with Nair, etc. If you DO hit Snake, he can usually still recover, he's not getting gimped or anything. Marth on the other hand is at a real risk of getting gimped or hit even more.

Snake's grab range is pretty good. And his Dthrow ***** G&W hard.

Dair is not that easy to SDI, especially if the second or third hit trips you.

4. Yeah, point I'm trying to get across that rules this matchup in G&W's favor by far.

If G&W shields, it stops any attacks from Sonic. It doesn't stop grabs. Dtilt stops grabs. But, oh wait Dtilt loses to PS/Waited attack. Here we go again into RPS


Edit: Sonic can PS Dtilt if you are trying to hit with the middle part.

 

[infomon]

10 frames of cooldown lag is SUPER fast. If you were already running towards G&W, the only way you could conceivably punish that is if his timing is REALLY bad. Ideally, G&W should be timing it so that the middle of the hitbox is still out when you get close. You have to shield or jump to stop yourself from running into that, and it's definitely going to take more than 10 frames to let down shield and punish or whatever nonsense.

It's a battle of prediction/punishment on top of reaction/options. Either G&W's timing is bad, or Sonic's is bad. We're running at you; you think we won't expect you to attack? Do you think the Sonic can't react fast enough to punish your Dtilt? Then how do you think you can shield all of our attacks?

Edit: This is one possible scenario amidst a set, the whole rock-paper-scissors thing dr.mario guy was talking about, idk how you can say that this one scenario simply doesn't happen, since it's an incredible obvious piece. Sonic's running-at-you isn't a hitbox, we know you're going to do something.

 

[Hylian]

It's a battle of prediction/punishment on top of reaction/options. Either G&W's timing is bad, or Sonic's is bad. We're running at you; you think we won't expect you to attack? Do you think the Sonic can't react fast enough to punish your Dtilt? Then how do you think you can shield all of our attacks?

Edit: This is one possible scenario amidst a set, the whole rock-paper-scissors thing dr.mario guy was talking about, idk how you can say that this one scenario simply doesn't happen, since it's an incredible obvious piece. Sonic's running-at-you isn't a hitbox, we know you're going to do something.

It's ok. We know. AZ just doesn't like to think when he posts, ala my sig.

 

[DMG]

Also, I want to point out something.

Say Dtilt lasts til frame 20, and cooldown lag is over at frame 30 (10 frames basically). Sonic would have 10 frames to punish you ONLY if his shield gets hit on frame 20. If, say, his shield gets hit on frame 13, he has basically 17 frames to punish you (not counting shield stun/shield dropping frames), not just 10 frames. So, while you think 10 frames is a short time, in reality it's more likely than not to be slanted towards the defender, simply because it is incredibly hard to hit someone on the last possible hitbox frame of any attack before you experience cooldown lag.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Then you are not playing good enough Snakes lol. Active camping is not about shield pressure, it is about forcing you to react or get hit, while the other person is still really safe. Marth has to at least get close to you to hit you, Snake can toss sh** and it makes YOU move or get hit. Who cares about shield poking, if Marth is threatening to poke your shield then he isn't really camping, now is he?

I'm pretty **** certain that Marth by far is more likely to actually land a hit on G&W through his spacing as opposed to Snake actually landing any hits from his camping. If G&W approaches Marth, he can just shield, Up-B out of shield. Sure, it's not easy at all to approach Snake, but grabbing him or B-airing his shield can be safe in certain situations whereas it is NEVER safe to approach Marth's shield.

You can try ANY aerial vs Marth when he recovers, they are all threatening to him while he tries to recover especially Nair . His recovery is fairly straightforward and it orientated towards the edge (Upb is also Nasty against him since it sends him out horizontally). Snake can try to recover high, go for the edge, drop onto the stage from medium height with Nair, etc. If you DO hit Snake, he can usually still recover, he's not getting gimped or anything. Marth on the other hand is at a real risk of getting gimped or hit even more.

N-air doesn't kill Marth. The only aerials that can kill offstage are F-air and D-air, the latter of which has trouble KOing without the spike or when diminished.

Up-B is rarely viable against Marth when his recovery is ledge oriented.

Marth can just F-air or counter if you get close, and it shuts down all of your edgeguard attempts except for D-air edgeguard, which he usually survives at high percents or if he likes to ledgetech.

F-air edgeguard should kill Snake pretty easily at around 120% unless you diminished it too much. You can save the F-air and replace it with judgement for dealing damage to Snake offstage.

Snake's grab range is pretty good. And his Dthrow ***** G&W hard.

His shieldgrab is nothing notable. His boost grab is good in terms of range, but he definitely doesn't want to whiff it. You can easily not get shieldgrabbed, and it's not that safe for Snake to otherwise attempt to go for a grab.

Dair is not that easy to SDI, especially if the second or third hit trips you.

I'm not seeing this. I never have trouble escaping Snake's D-air under any circumstances. I only get killed by it if I literally fall into just the last hit. =/

If G&W shields, it stops any attacks from Sonic. It doesn't stop grabs. Dtilt stops grabs. But, oh wait Dtilt loses to PS/Waited attack. Here we go again into RPS

Sonic can't PS D-tilt if you know the spacing.

Edit: Sonic can PS Dtilt if you are trying to hit with the middle part.

You probably misread me. I mean hitting Sonic during the lingering frames where it is near impossible to dash up and powershield a stationary lingering hitbox.

 

[DMG]

A2Z, it is not that hard to PS a stationary hitbox (probably one of the easiest to PS other than a slow projectile), I do it quite a bit vs Hylian. You can even look in my vids, I do it to not only his Dtilt but his Fsmash as well while it is lingering.

And yes, Upb is very viable when edgeguarding. So are Nair and Fair (Dair not so much, but it does catch airdodges). Nair forces him to either try to Dair, Counter, or airdodge. If he airdodges, then an Fair will whack him and maybe a Dair. If he's high enough and not fast falling then Upb will too.

Snake may die at 120% from the Fair, while Marth would die around 100% lol. Either way, Snake's recovery is a lot better than Marth's. If you sourspot Dsmash vs Marth, his recovery is terribly limited. If you do that to Snake, he can DJ then Upb to give him a huge vertical boost, which is much better compared to what Marth can try to do. Snake also can travel farther with Upb and he can do it multiple times if needed with C4 recovery.

 

[Anthinus]

Ok, I'll try to explain about G&W dtilt and other stuff against Sonic aproaching...

First two question:

What you do if you see Sonic begins charging side B at 3-4 bodies of distance of you?
What you do if Sonic spaces and runs towards you?

That will happen in the battle VERY VERY often, so to begin my explanation I need some answers of the above questions first

 

[Hylian]

AZ, how do you react to ASC's?

 

[infomon]

... wait, so Sonic is running at you, and you want to hit him with Dtilt during the very last frames of the hitbox? Then why is the Sonic still running at you? If you're prepared to commit to an attack before Sonic's in range, then it's just as conceivable that Sonic was planning all along on stopping outside of your range and hitting you with an Fsmash (roflz). If they're started on the same frame, the Fsmash conveniently lands at the start of Dtilt's ending lag frames.

idk maybe this is just getting silly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2Z, it is not that hard to PS a stationary hitbox (probably one of the easiest to PS other than a slow projectile), I do it quite a bit vs Hylian. You can even look in my vids, I do it to not only his Dtilt but his Fsmash as well while it is lingering.

Seriously....how? I really want to know.

And yes, Upb is very viable when edgeguarding. So is Nair and Fair (Dair not so much, but it does catch airdodges).

Up-B is super telegraphed. The one time where Marth can safely air dodge. N-air and F-air have no range. When I edgeguard Marth, I almost always get hit away because his attacks outrange those two aerials. D-air is MUCH better because it actually hits him out of his Up-B.

Snake may die at 120% from the Fair, while Marth would die around 100% lol. Either way, Snake's recovery is a lot better than Marth's. If you sourspot Dsmash vs Marth, his recovery is terribly limited. If you do that to Snake, he can DJ then Upb to give him a huge vertical boost, which is much better compared to what Marth can try to do. Snake also can travel farther with Upb and he can do it multiple times if needed with C4 recovery.

You can't actually land sourspot D-smash on Marth unless he spams rolls, so why are you even bringing this up?

Vs Marth, most of the time Marth is actually on stage when you land F-air (which you need more to punish him out of shield moreover), so he's actually dying at similar percents if not higher than those to Snake from a F-air. Snake has a LOT of lag time in the air where you can hit him offstage. A fairly undiminished F-air, no matter who you are, if pretty difficult to survive offstage past 100%. But you're not landing that on Marth. Sure Snake can often weave around it, but he can't do that from all positions.

Marth's recovery is a lot better than many people give it credit for. It's gimpable if he does it wrong, but in nearly all positions he has an option to counter people who edgeguard him. Snake on the other hand is a character who rarely gets outright gimped, but his recovery has a lot of positions where it can be punished consistently. I'm pretty sure this fact matters a lot for G&W.

 

[Kinzer]

1. You panic, because charging up that should be a mindgame if people are aware of all his different techs from all that mess.

2. I don't know the question, so I won't address it.

 

[slikvik]

Hmm, I've played with malcolm a bit but never this exact match-up. I'll try and get him to post here. He's played several sets with Direvulcan, most recently at CoT4

 

[Anthinus]

1. You panic, because charging up that should be a mindgame if people are aware of all his different techs from all that mess.

2. I don't know the question, so I won't address it.

LOL, again:

1. What you do if you see Sonic begins charging side B at 3-4 bodies of distance of you?
2. What you do if Sonic spaces away or/and then runs towards you?

 

[A2ZOMG]

1. What you do if you see Sonic begins charging side B at 3-4 bodies of distance of you?
2. What you do if Sonic spaces away or/and then runs towards you?

1. Shieldcamp
2. Shieldcamp

 

[Kinzer]

Then just take #1 and apply it in the second question.

And also since I have a chance to make another post instead of edit it, I'm pretty sure the first instinct on the part of G&W is to just wait it out and see what Sonic does.

However like Olimar they better guess right or Sonic gets that window of opportunity to punish.

The reason the matchup on paper is much worse for Sonic concerning G&W than it is Olimar is because G&W has an easier time doing that.

Still doesn't mean Sonic can fake out some things and turn the initial approach into something else, which isn't character matchup specific, he ALWAYS keeps opponents guessing and on their toes.

Edit:

No.
No.

God D***it I can't believe I have to say this, but how long do you think a @#$%ing shield stands for? This isn't Melee where you can lightly press the trigger button to slow down the draining process, and even then you cannot stay in your GD shield forever!

A2 you should know you're doing somethign wrong when even Hylian/moderator/matchup manager says an opinion that doesn't agree with yours!

I'm not going to be staying here much longer if all I see is you posting all this BS claims and litte representation of somebody else's opinion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

^appeal to authority fallacy = fail.

It's not hard to simply shield when Sonic starts moving. I should have plenty of time to shield, and if I'm in doubt, I can run to the ledge, edgecamp a bit, and shieldcamp some more.

 

[Kinzer]

I used them as a reference because nobody else appears to be around but the people who are here now, I can't do nything about that.

Great, go ahead and limit yourself, it's not like Sonic isn't the prince of offstage gaming for nothing (the king would be MK), I would like to see how this leads off.

 

[Tenki]

LOL, again:

1. What you do if you see Sonic begins charging side B at 3-4 bodies of distance of you?
2. What you do if Sonic spaces away or/and then runs towards you?

1.
a) do nothing (Sonic will shield cancel, release, spinshot, or VSDJ)
b) dashgrab (only if Sonic shieldcancels)

2.
a) probably shield (hint: z button will work the first few times, and if the GAW gets smart about your dashgrabs, he'll probably spotdodge, in which case, that has an answer with SH delayed B-air)

--------------------

New questions, from me:
3. Sonic ASCs (aerial down-B) on your shield.
4. Sonic uses side-B's hop and hits your shield.
5. Sonic walks away.

responses..?

edit:
also, if you try to shieldcamp Sonic's side-B charge, he can just shieldcancel and walk away, because he doesn't really have to commit to releasing it until about 2 seconds, but even then, he can just jump out.

This isn't to say that you're going to be holding shield the whole time. It's just that you're not forcing him to approach that way, and he doesn't necessarily have to approach either.

 

[Anthinus]

1. Shieldcamp
2. Shieldcamp

1. Hold the charge at that safe distance while you shiled disminishes (It don't lasts forever dude).
2. Stop momentum with B to do a side B and happens the same thing as #1.

This is serious please...

 

[Kinzer]

Up-B.

It actually works, what with the insane priority and the invincibility frames on it, I will admit it is a great OoS attack.

If it doesn't hit Sonic, it at least gets him away from any follow-ups.

 

[Tenki]

1. Hold the charge at that safe distance while you shiled disminishes (It don't lasts forever dude).
2. Stop momentum with B to do a side B and happens the same thing as #1.

This is serious please...

He mentioned it and I mentioned it:

Shieldcamping doesn't mean he's standing there holding shield as you charge.

It simply means he's planning to shield your attack (when you commit to it) and do something to punish it.

However, he doesn't specify what he's punishing nor what he's punishing with.

Useful.

 

[A2ZOMG]

3. Sonic ASCs (aerial down-B) on your shield.
4. Sonic uses side-B's hop and hits your shield.
5. Sonic walks away.

3. Assuming you're above me, I usually have that option covered with up-B or N-air out of shield anyway.
4. Is this the invul frames on SideB, or are you doing a jump and aerial on my shield? because usually the answer for G&W is shielding the hit.
5. Walk towards you.

also, if you try to shieldcamp Sonic's side-B charge, he can just shieldcancel and walk away, because he doesn't really have to release it until about 2 seconds.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. I don't have to shield either until I see you start moving. Trying to get G&W to excessively wear his own shield down doesn't work that way.

Oh, you beat me to it.

 

[Tenki]

3. Assuming you're above me, I usually have that option covered with up-B or N-air out of shield anyway.
4. Is this the invul frames on SideB, or are you doing a jump and aerial on my shield? because usually the answer for G&W is shielding the hit.

3) Up-B might work.
N-air won't catch Sonic if we spring on contact with shield - IF we make contact with shield, anyway, lol.

4) It doesn't matter, because the invul frames are only upon release. I'm saying that I'm doing side-B's hop into your shield.

Either way, at that point, Sonic's choices are the same. He can spring, double jump airdodge, double jump D-air, etc.

5) lolk

More situations:

6) Sonic is below you, slightly in front, and you are in the air. What are your choices safe choices?

 

[A2ZOMG]

6) If I'm like...say recovering. You're coming up from that position rite? The safest option is probably to retreat F-air, which outranges your other aerials and has low aerial ending lag. D-air is riskier, as you can hit G&W from the side if you're fast...but is capable of getting me below you. Air dodging can work sometimes for simply landing on stage safely with invul frames, but can be punished with N-air probably.

 

[Tenki]

No.

On stage.

 

[Anthinus]

1.
a) do nothing (Sonic will shield cancel, release, spinshot, or VSDJ)
b) dashgrab (only if Sonic shieldcancels)

2.
a) probably shield (hint: z button will work the first few times, and if the GAW gets smart about your dashgrabs, he'll probably spotdodge, in which case, that has an answer with SH delayed B-air)

--------------------

New questions, from me:
3. Sonic ASCs (aerial down-B) on your shield.
4. Sonic uses side-B's hop and hits your shield.
5. Sonic walks away.

responses..?

edit:
also, if you try to shieldcamp Sonic's side-B charge, he can just shieldcancel and walk away, because he doesn't really have to commit to releasing it until about 2 seconds, but even then, he can just jump out.

This isn't to say that you're going to be holding shield the whole time. It's just that you're not forcing him to approach that way, and he doesn't necessarily have to approach either.

Good Tenki.

Have to add: In #1 if G&W does nothing to wait, just approach a bit with another SD charge, he have to reaction in some way when you begin playing with SDCancel or SOnic will be close enogh to running grab him before G&W react...

In #2 can be SD cancel too, away or near to PS... There are more options...

I response yours:

3. as G&W and knowing ASC, if I try OoS up b, shield stun lag will interfere and when I manage to do it will be shielded by Sonic if he cancels ASC. If I don't react quickly I'll get or grabbed or springed in the face. My choice is back roll...

4. OoS Nair, cuz if I back roll can be punished If Sonic decides to continue rolling... But if he springs I have an opportunity to destroy the spring and look for juggling.

5. Walking away Sonic is something hard to read, I'll try to approach with SHs and be prepared to DJ Dair or Nair or turnaround Bair. Sonic can Bair at any moment, tilt me away if I approach by air without care, time my and run grab me, SD fake me out, SS, Boosted USmash, stutter step me... There are too much stuff he can do, If I SH I can make an opening depending of what he do...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Number 6 involves reaction on the ends of both players to an extent. Usually, I can just go back to the edge. I can retreat with F-air in the meantime to deter most approaches, but there is probably enough time to land a homing attack. Air dodging back on stage is mostly safe, but punishable with DA, Up-smash, and grabs, which can be punished by G&W's D-air if he correctly anticipates either. His D-air has fairly low ending lag, but can be punished with DA and Dashgrab.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

These really specific hypothetical arguments are dumb because they're hypothetical, discuss only a few possibilities out of many, and prove nothing. Not to mention they don't provide much to the match up discussion.

you can hit G&W from the side if you're fast...

lulz We're talking about Sonic . . . .

 

[Tenki]

Good Tenki.

Have to add: In #1 if G&W does nothing to wait, just approach a bit with another SD charge, he have to reaction in some way when you begin playing with SDCancel or SOnic will be close enogh to running grab him before G&W react...

In #2 can be SD cancel too, away or near to PS... There are more options...

I response yours:

3. as G&W and knowing ASC, if I try OoS up b, shield stun lag will interfere and when I manage to do it will be shielded by Sonic if he cancels ASC. If I don't react quickly I'll get or grabbed or springed in the face. My choice is back roll...

4. OoS Nair, cuz if I back roll can be punished If Sonic decides to continue rolling... But if he springs I have an opportunity to destroy the spring and look for juggling.

5. Walking away Sonic is something hard to read, I'll try to approach with SHs and be prepared to DJ Dair or Nair or turnaround Bair. Sonic can Bair at any moment, tilt me away if I approach by air without care, time my and run grab me, SD fake me out, SS, Boosted USmash, stutter step me... There are too much stuff he can do, If I SH I can make an opening depending of what he do...

to your 1) Nah, not really. You can run around and spam side-B cancels, and I've done this in Sonic dittos, lol. I can stand there, or I can just walk away.

3) ASC doesn't have that much shieldstun. It's possible to shieldgrab it with most characters. If you do an up+forward tilted shield, it buys you some space to jump an aerial if the Sonic isn't prepared to escape out.


5) But, you don't have to approach either
Neither character really has to approach. It's all up to the player to choose to approach.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lulz We're talking about Sonic . . . .

Sonic is kinda retardedly slow in the air. Just saying. He doesn't accelerate very fast unless he commits to a special attack.

 

[Tenki]

Number 6 involves reaction on the ends of both players to an extent. Usually, I can just go back to the edge. I can retreat with F-air in the meantime to deter most approaches, but there is probably enough time to land a homing attack. Air dodging back on stage is mostly safe, but punishable with DA, Up-smash, and grabs, which can be punished by G&W's D-air if he correctly anticipates either. His D-air has fairly low ending lag, but can be punished with DA and Dashgrab.

No.

On stage.

^?

These really specific hypothetical arguments are dumb because they're hypothetical, discuss only a few possibilities out of many, and prove nothing. Not to mention they don't provide much to the match up discussion.

My situations aren't exactly hypothetical

I might explain whenever I get responses.

---------

also, random Q:
does Sonic move faster at top regular airspeed than GAW's max run/airspeed?

 

[Anthinus]

These really specific hypothetical arguments are dumb because they're hypothetical, discuss only a few possibilities out of many, and prove nothing. Not to mention they don't provide much to the match up discussion.

No, this are things that you'll see always in Sonic vs G&W. The questions from 1 to 6 happens all the time. One thing I can point out is that in this cases and approaches it seems tha G&W don't have a variety of options to counter, but Sonic can choose an BUNCH of stuff to do that can make G&W do an opening or get damaged in the process.

lulz We're talking about Sonic . . . .

You said it

EDIT: Another thing to point out... Why nobody choose Dtilt as an answer, isn't that the move that completly stop Sonic from doing anything???

 

[Tenki]

No, this are things that you'll see always in Sonic vs G&W. The questions from 1 to 6 happens all the time. One thing I can point out is that in this cases and approaches it seems tha G&W don't have a variety of options to counter, but Sonic can choose an BUNCH of stuff to do that can make G&W do an opening or get damaged in the process.



You said it

GAW doesn't really need variety as long as his moves are effective.

My questions are poking at the effectiveness and safety of GAW's options.