Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[infomon]

Ok... UThrow deals 12% damage. Sonic can kill G&W at 150% with it (that without mention Sonic is made to rack up damage easily). BThrow isn't the best option as you think. DThrow G&W only out off stage. If you don't beware of FThrow you'll get mindgamed and punished (I pivot SD trough that cute turtle of yours, BTW I like it ).

Uthrow doesn't kill at 150%:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=67499

not until around 180% if the G&W knows how to DI.

Bthrow also isn't a kill move if the opponent can DI depending on level/situation of course. It's mostly a setup, but a smart G&W won't be gimped.

Mario is more powerful, I agree. But you can't outcamp Sonic (he is faster lol) with him or you'll get Spin Shotted in the face. Not to mention that the fireballs are easy to powershield (and then OoS stuff). Well, you are playing bad Sonics cuz I won 3/4 games against G&Ws 2 days ago.

Mario's fireballs are either for zoning, or as bait for a follow-up. Sonic's OoS stuff isn't very good, and that might be exactly the bait Mario is looking for. He can fireball + attack in front of Sonic so any follow-up is met with a hitbox. Can be done so as to be safe. I recommend you experiment with using a hitbox to kill the fireballs instead of shield, as the hitlag delays your hitbox so it can punish a Mario follow-up obv that's also very situational, but if you're only using shield to stop fireballs (even with powershield) you'll be predictable for the Mario.

Super Wrong... If you are thinking Sonic will come spindashing/tilting/smashing like crazy to G&W and then you'll OoS him you're wrong and you'll get punished. If you shieldcamp, you'll get Bair spammed (no lag, 14%, disjointed hitbox, priority, pushes away), it can pass through things like Oli's USmash.

Sure, but hitting shields is a common part of gameplay nonetheless. We are good at landing grabs on their shield, which is part of why G&W will be so campy in this matchup. Our Bair isn't that safe on shield, you gotta be real careful with it.... but mebbe my spacing just sucks In contrast, G&W's Bair eats through our shield and can either lead to a followup or be baiting any of our limited punishment options.

However, you can often tell what the G&W is planning based on the spacing of it. G&W can get predictable because his hitboxes, while mad-disjointed, tend to be long and thin and committed. Use sonic's speed to run out of range, then either punish or bait his shield/spotdodge/counterattack. I guess that's how all matches work, but still.... find his pattern. Run away lots to keep your shield up, dash-attack punish when you can get away with it, use tilts and space carefully. I'm not convinced this matchup that extreme.

The only prob Nair can give Sonic is if you are bad Sonic and don't know how to spring barrier G&W properly to land safely.

Actually I think G&W's Nair is super-good in this matchup. Start by comparing it to our Nair, then cry. It's fantastic punishment if we ever get near a G&W, it removes what would otherwise be a blindspot to his aerials, so we can't get into him with ASC because of it. It's too lagless to punish its landing consistently. idk maybe I'm a bad Sonic

You're right that there's a big difference between a Sonic who knows how to spring escape traps, and a Sonic who knows how to spring barrier to both escape the trap and consistently return safely. I don't think G&W should be landing his smashes on us as much as the G&W's think

The torch, the chair, the hamemer, the helm... Are powershielded by Sonic 3/5 times (really!?!... yup...) and then you got grabbed/Dash attacked OoS/punished. DTilt is the only one that Sonic cannot powershield & punish cuz he gets hit (but usually you jump away to space). If dtilt clanks is cuz you SDRed into it (very stupid or rare situation, for a good Sonic...) and if G&W just dtilt he gets Spin Shotted/SCVJed to his doom (really!?!... yup...).

Every hitbox in the game can be powershielded. It depends when we get our shield up whether or not we can punish, but obv the G&W will be setting up situations where we won't make it. G&W's Dtilt will be just one of the ways he punishes us for trying the options we have to punish his smashes (which have very low ending lag; you're right that we need to shield them to nullify the hitbox, since we can't wait until the hitbox is gone...) Our jab beats his Dtilt, actually, unless you're spaced poorly. But his Dtilt is much quicker than spinshotting and aerial on him; if anything he'll Dtilt to provoke that, then aerial/smash your approach lol.

Anthinus, mad props yo but you're calling out A2ZOMG's understanding of Sonic, when I really don't think he's as naive as you're making him out to be. Like, I get the impression that he does know most of our ATs, and you don't need to know all the acronyms to know how Sonics play and what they're trying to do.

G&W is hard. I don't know how hard tho cuz I'm not high-level enuf so I guess you could call me out lol but w/e.

I just wanted to point out (might be old lol) that the Lucas matchup is currently at a total of 110%

It might've been noticed before but yeah, just thought someone should know 75/35

It's just that hard of a matchup

How does Sonic deal with a ledgecamping G&W?

side-taunt srsly idk, I need G&W exp. What do G&W's like to do from the ledge? If you ever drop off, Sonic will want to run off the stage and Bair stagespike you the moment there's an opportunity..... it's hard to pull this off on G&W with the invincy frames on your up-B, though (or is that just superarmor?).

 

[messiahfreak2000]

On a side note, I'll play messiahfreak next week in my upcoming tourney. Dunno if he's an amazing Sonic, but I've heard he's actually pretty good.

wait, whoa, someone thinks i'm good? haha, i ain't amazing but i try.

from my limited matchup experience, its like 65:35 g&w. any time i approach, its a risk to eating an aerial if the g&w knows anything about sonic (i'm looking at you A2, haha). anytime sonic hits its when you camp and watch which moves come out. course, g&w camps better and presents few opportunities to approach.

i still need practice with this one.

 

[cutter]

side-taunt srsly idk, I need G&W exp. What do G&W's like to do from the ledge? If you ever drop off, Sonic will want to run off the stage and Bair stagespike you the moment there's an opportunity..... it's hard to pull this off on G&W with the invincy frames on your up-B, though (or is that just superarmor?).

Stuff GW can do from the ledge:

- up B back into it (wind hitbox + multiple invincibility frames... it doesn't have superarmor just very high priority)
- Nair
- Fair (more reach than Nair)
- Uair to disrupt the opponent from coming above you

 

[Gishnak]

I somewhat recently played a Sonic in tourney, dunno if he's known on the sonic boards (think his name was phoenix?). He was certainly a competent player, and he beat me in my first game! I didn't know the sonic matchup at all, but it was clear my mistake:

I'd approach and throw out aerials, and after he camped in a spinball of some sort, he'd punish. He also could time hitting me between my ditlit wall. I constantly was punished for approaching.

The next games I just approached on the ground so I could shield more, and when I was in range I'd approach more normally, and thus I won.

So I can't say much about this matchup, only played it a few times, but I can say that a good sonic can surprise an unexpecting game and watch, but it sure seems that if the gdubs knows what he's doing the sonic will have a very hard time landing hits.

 

[jiggly_owns_u]

I think we should take into consideration that Hylian, one of the best G&W's around, lost to malcolm, a sonic player at CoT4. Also i think this matchup is sumwhere around 6:4G&W and maybe as close as 55:45. This is assuming that both know the matchup and are competent players

 

[Kinzer]

I'll clear stuff up for people who really wants to see how Sonic plays against G&W (Kinzer thnx to say that about A2, I don't wanted to post anything cuz of him, but I'll use what he said to explain my self more clearly now...)



Super Wrong... If you are thinking Sonic will come spindashing/tilting/smashing like crazy to G&W and then you'll OoS him you're wrong and you'll get punished. If you shieldcamp, you'll get Bair spammed (no lag, 14%, disjointed hitbox, priority, pushes away), it can pass through things like Oli's USmash.



The torch, the chair, the hamemer, the helm... Are powershielded by Sonic 3/5 times (really!?!... yup...) and then you got grabbed/Dash attacked OoS/punished. DTilt is the only one that Sonic cannot powershield & punish cuz he gets hit (but usually you jump away to space). If dtilt clanks is cuz you SDRed into it (very stupid or rare situation, for a good Sonic...) and if G&W just dtilt he gets Spin Shotted/SCVJed to his doom (really!?!... yup...).



Just to close and to help the nice guy's thread here: DTilt don't stop Sonic at all. Throws set up mindgames. Shieldcamp = you get spammed. SD can pass through the tortoise (in some situations). FSmash = Powershield. SDR is the less thing Sonics use against G&W (You said it is and it isn't)... And I'm not mentioning the TONS of mindgames Sonic have or the useful ATs he have (specially good agaisnt the LCD dude)...



Its a Hard and close match 55/45 at your favor. I hope this helps

You can't let one person be the judge of a whole community RSR, that only works for the Sonic boards since we're all crazy nutcases who worship Steak the same way the other boarders would.

Bair is good my friend, but it's not godly like some other Bairs in this game (I'm looknig at you D3). not to mention Bair is going to be decayed where it won't always do THAT much damage.

You have to take into account human error man, we won't always PS every single hit in the game, or our matchup guide would be seeing a helluva lot more blues/greens.

BTW DTilt is only punishable if you are approaching with a Bair or doing it from a Spinshot, not really quick but at the top of my head those are some ways to punish it, of course there could be more, but I'm too lazy to come up with stuff.

I also think the matchup is just 6:4... perhaps 65:35 but IDC, as I've said multiple times I have too much G&W experience to lose to your run-of-the-mill G&Ws as of now, and I've somehow turned one of Sonic's supposed worst matchups into neutral/my advantage.

It might've been noticed before but yeah, just thought someone should know 75/35

Oh ****, matchups don't add up to 110 AFAIK

Well by campy I mean they can sit in one spot, wait for you to approach or fake out an approach to make the opponent approach/react and then punish their reaction. Sonic's too good at that.

Trust me, he can camp harder than that though lol. If you have ever seen my vids with Wario, just do that with Sonic with running, Upb and airdodging (maybe some Dairs to get to the ground closer occasionally). That stuff makes it a lot more even for Sonic IMO.

You're just preachnig this stuff ever since you found this out about Wario, don'tc'ya?

He grabs it, he can Upb and that spring is a pain, homing attack (you would be surprised).

Granted, those options are hard to work with, but he's not as helpless as, say Falco for example.

I actually just S or FH and then Dair...

...surprisingly, I've made it work sometimes, should they had to resort to that.

A ledgecamping GaW is totally gay and make the matchups retardedly worse for Sonic. I'd just be patient and drop Springs on a ledgecamping GaW. HA will totally not work. HA is the most ********, unviable move there is, outprioritized and stupid lag. However, we have side-B invincibility frames to go trough some attacks and hit you out of it. We can also Spinshot just over you to B-air you.

You cannot edgeguard with Side-B G2, there's no way unless G&W overshoots the ledge and you somehow time the 4 invincibility frames on it precisely. Spinshot does not work either since all it does is just move Sonic forward at Sonic speed and siphons your second jump, leaving you in a much worse position for G&W to hit you out of.

A patient/ campy Sonic is an equal matchup due to GaW lack of "ill make you come to me"moves. The basic sonic game is movement, so the sonic can use movement to evade and pressure him while for the most part GaW is either trying to anticipate correct shiled usage or trying to slow sonic down with a well placed aerial. That said sonic needs to get in, which is difficult because the most consistant options against GaW's aerial spam is either to shield and punish, which kills the shiled after a few times, or to anticipate the jump and Up Smash.

- They will live to about the same %, if you factor DI and momentum cancelling techniques that they have, plus they both can't really gimp each other, maybe a slight edge to sonic. maybe.

- If the match is played by two really good smart players, the match will take a long time because it will be won on who controls the ground.

the match up is no more than 55:45 or 50:50. IMO

While I don't entirely agree with this, I do acknowledge that G&W doesn't have any method to force approaches other than being in the stock/%age lead (because Bacon will not penatrate through Steak, it just won't due to how fast it grills), and could be manipulated to an extent.

Sonic is heavier than GDubs, don't let A2 tell you otherwise.

And our momentum cancel is just as good if not better than his we move towards the stage after the charge release, G&W on the other hand has to commit to it for about 1/2 a second (and although it doesn't matter here, he can't have a full bucket).

Don't be surprised if you see the clock wearing down in this matchup, you would be stupid to play any kind of game but a defensive one if you aren't falling behind.

Somebody is optimistic... again IDC but it just looks like it could be 6:4 on paper to me, it's so much different in the heart of the battlefield.

Uthrow doesn't kill at 150%:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=67499

not until around 180% if the G&W knows how to DI.

You are my favorite Sonic player for referring to my data collection, even though all the numbers I have so far are only in training mode.

I somewhat recently played a Sonic in tourney, dunno if he's known on the sonic boards (think his name was phoenix?). He was certainly a competent player, and he beat me in my first game! I didn't know the sonic matchup at all, but it was clear my mistake:

I'd approach and throw out aerials, and after he camped in a spinball of some sort, he'd punish. He also could time hitting me between my ditlit wall. I constantly was punished for approaching.

The next games I just approached on the ground so I could shield more, and when I was in range I'd approach more normally, and thus I won.

So I can't say much about this matchup, only played it a few times, but I can say that a good sonic can surprise an unexpecting game and watch, but it sure seems that if the gdubs knows what he's doing the sonic will have a very hard time landing hits.

This is the way I see it too, a (good) Sonic will always catch a non-experienced player off gaurd, but once they catch on, it just becomes slightly harder to take the win... the difficulty can vary but oh wells.

 

[Anthinus]

Uthrow doesn't kill at 150%:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=67499 not until around 180% if the G&W knows how to DI.

Sorry, you are right...

Mario's fireballs are either for zoning, or as bait for a follow-up. Sonic's OoS stuff isn't very good, and that might be exactly the bait Mario is looking for. He can fireball + attack in front of Sonic so any follow-up is met with a hitbox. Can be done so as to be safe. I recommend you experiment with using a hitbox to kill the fireballs instead of shield, as the hitlag delays your hitbox so it can punish a Mario follow-up obv that's also very situational, but if you're only using shield to stop fireballs (even with powershield) you'll be predictable for the Mario.

Thats the other thing I didn't mention, hit the fireballs. But POWERshield them is good too. You can SDP to/or SS to approach when hitting/shielding the fire with good timing(I played against Mario a lot infzy, I'm not just saying nonsense).

Sure, but hitting shields is a common part of gameplay nonetheless. We are good at landing grabs on their shield, which is part of why G&W will be so campy in this matchup. Our Bair isn't that safe on shield, you gotta be real careful with it.... but mebbe my spacing just sucks In contrast, G&W's Bair eats through our shield and can either lead to a followup or be baiting any of our limited punishment options.

I don't think your spacing sucks, you only don't know how to space properly . Bair is a very safe option... push away shielding people giving you space to do it again or do another thing to weak G&W shield until you can reach his nose, mini lag and range will keep you away too, you should know this... The tortoise eats our shields indeed, but spaced properly G&W will find difficult to land a Fair or Bair without getting open (if you let that turtle keep hitting your shield is cuz your doing it wrong)

However, you can often tell what the G&W is planning based on the spacing of it. G&W can get predictable because his hitboxes, while mad-disjointed, tend to be long and thin and committed. Use sonic's speed to run out of range, then either punish or bait his shield/spotdodge/counterattack. I guess that's how all matches work, but still.... find his pattern. Run away lots to keep your shield up, dash-attack punish when you can get away with it, use tilts and space carefully. I'm not convinced this matchup that extreme.

That above is correct. But you're forgetttttting powershield (for some reason isn't difficult to powershield his ground attacks as you approach, I do it VERY often...). I don't blame you for not been convinced (I didn't said that Sonic have this match on the pocket... If you don't do the right things with good timing you'll get compleatly owned by him), maybe you have to play more G&W...

Actually I think G&W's Nair is super-good in this matchup. Start by comparing it to our Nair, then cry. It's fantastic punishment if we ever get near a G&W, it removes what would otherwise be a blindspot to his aerials, so we can't get into him with ASC because of it. It's too lagless to punish its landing consistently. idk maybe I'm a bad Sonic

ASC enters if they like to torch to stop you ONLY... Nair is ****** move. But not good to approach in ground (at least against Sonic, there are better ways). If you are on air spring don't hit through it and either Dair, but using spring as barrier and landing safely is easy. Sonic air game aganist G&W isn't recommended anyways, unless you beging to combo him...

You're right that there's a big difference between a Sonic who knows how to spring escape traps, and a Sonic who knows how to spring barrier to both escape the trap and consistently return safely. I don't think G&W should be landing his smashes on us as much as the G&W's think

Yup yup

Every hitbox in the game can be powershielded. It depends when we get our shield up whether or not we can punish, but obv the G&W will be setting up situations where we won't make it. G&W's Dtilt will be just one of the ways he punishes us for trying the options we have to punish his smashes (which have very low ending lag; you're right that we need to shield them to nullify the hitbox, since we can't wait until the hitbox is gone...) Our jab beats his Dtilt, actually, unless you're spaced poorly. But his Dtilt is much quicker than spinshotting and aerial on him; if anything he'll Dtilt to provoke that, then aerial/smash your approach lol.

Time powershield is easy come on.... OoS options we have are good and effective for me: Dash attack, SDP, jabs, pivot grab, screech running... SS and SDVJ are usefull cuz when they see you carging SD/SC they'll don't expect that approach (if they shield boxgrab him)... SS>bair can kill G&W when recovering very easily. If they smash your SS they'll get baired 70% of the time (SS properly spaced), if the Dtilt to aerial cancel it (easy to see that coming...).

Anthinus, mad props yo but you're calling out A2ZOMG's understanding of Sonic, when I really don't think he's as naive as you're making him out to be. Like, I get the impression that he does know most of our ATs, and you don't need to know all the acronyms to know how Sonics play and what they're trying to do.

ARZOMG knows about Sonic (cuz he plays against him), but is obvious he ignores a lot of things for the way he talks. Knowing your opponent is a path to win (why do you think I use G&W too), if they don't know SS approachs, SD inv frames that goes through turtle, ASC 33% easy damage, Spinshot approaches, etc... Can be caught off guard...

G&W is hard. I don't know how hard tho cuz I'm not high-level enuf so I guess you could call me out lol but w/e.

That's right. Is as hard as we are for him.

It's just that hard of a matchup

Nope... Look what Kojin said before. In personal exp, before I learned how to fight LCD guy (sexy!) I get OWNED 0/4 times, 2 stocked, *****... That was months ago, now I get used to him (I had to begin using him and I liked this style at end ). I'm not talking what I don't know, Sonic mains used to this match as Kojin knows what I'm saying... I'm just putting some things clear, don't get it wrong infzy (I love you :embarrass... Steak! )

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm going to say it right now Hylian. You're overrated.

You're not close to being the best G&W around when you think Snake is G&W's worst matchup (it's Marth. Marth by far is worse to G&W).

If Sonic is giving you trouble, you have major problems. I notice you get a lot of comments about playing too aggressively. Step it down a notch and shieldcamp against him. Seriously, if there is one character besides Ike that gets screwed over big time by shield camping, it's Sonic. G&W shieldcamps Sonic EXTREMELY well due to his powerful punish options.

This matchup is so ridiculously in G&W's favor, it's dumb. All you need to do is shieldcamp and edgecamp. This matchup is dumber than G&W dittos by far. I hate and despise it. I used to think Sonic did well against G&W until I started camping him back the way I do. This matchup takes like a million years, but Sonic can't touch you as long as you're not dumb. Approaching sucks a lot in this matchup, but unlike G&W, Sonic doesn't have a way of setting up a perfect defensive game.

Bottom line: Sonic is the gayest low tier in Brawl. He's super gay, and sucks ****. Both at the same time.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm going to say it right now Hylian. You're overrated.

Awesome.

YEZS!

/bias for ban.

I still stand by my opinion that it can go either way, since Sonic can play better camping and G&W has no way to force an approach.

Your bell taunts won't aggreviate me either, I have two annoyings taunt to dwindle your patience.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sonic doesn't have better camping than G&W.

If Sonic goes in the air, working around G&W's juggling is a chore to get back to the ground. If Sonic goes for the ledge, working around G&W's ledge trap options is a huge chore since he can't edgecamp. If Sonic shields, not getting shield poked by the B-air is a huge chore because B-air ***** shields.

G&W BY FAR BY LIKE A FACTOR OF A MILLION OUTCAMPS SONIC IF HE PLAYS RIGHT. SONIC HAS ZERO GOOD OPTIONS TO G&W'S SHIELD CAMPING.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Dtilt beats literally everything Sonic can do from the ground, and you pretty cleanly beat him in the air. My experiences with Sonic suggest you just kinda camp with dtilt (you can't just spam it, but use it a lot), and when he jumps to get around it, meet him with an aerial that ridiculously beats him out. Sonic can run around if he's up, but if you just press him with lots of range and such odds are you'll be up at some point, and Sonic has no really good way to break in on your camping. Sonic also really can't kill you easily at all and pretty much always loses if two of your moves meet; I'm pretty sure this is more 70-30. Sonic can definitely win if he uses his speed to be really unpredictable, but at every step of the fight, Mr. Game & Watch seems to have the clear advantage...

I don't think "shield camping" is what you do. Sonic just runs up and grabs you if you do that. It's more like you have to keep Sonic out with your huge range.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

"And our momentum cancel is just as good if not better than his"

No, not even :<
But I trust DMG on this matchup. I've only played Teh_Umby a very few times on wifi, and I likely won't be able to play him until GIMR's tourney. MdrnDayMercutio's sonic is another Sonic I know, but I instead used Diddy.

I would personally say 65:35, but 6:4 is also fine with me.
But really.... Bacon > Steak

 

[Kinzer]

Sonic doesn't have better camping than G&W.

If Sonic goes in the air, working around G&W's juggling is a chore to get back to the ground.

If Sonic goes for the ledge, working around G&W's ledge trap options is a huge chore since he can't edgecamp.

If Sonic shields, not getting shield poked by the B-air is a huge chore because B-air ***** shields.

G&W BY FAR BY LIKE A FACTOR OF A MILLION OUTCAMPS SONIC IF HE PLAYS RIGHT. SONIC HAS ZERO GOOD OPTIONS TO G&W'S SHIELD CAMPING.

Doesn't mean that he doesn't gain options from letting G&W approach him.

I'll give you that, since I'm too lazy to come up with anything ATM.

I could've sworn we went through this, but regardless, Spring gets a lot of height... what's G&W going to do, blow me up higher with Uair? Sure it refreshes his moves, but yeah it's much better than being in an unfavorable situation. I would also liek to know how many times Sonic will have to snap the ledge in this matchup, what with his recovery and all that jazz.

Just keep a fresh shield, and bam, G&W's commited Bair becomes punishable with whatever you can imagine.

BTW I've already said this in our matchup thread as well, but I can just stand at that distance where you're attacks can't hit me but I'm not on the other side of the stage where if you commit to any move I WILL find some way to punish it. Sonic is great like that.

EDIT:

I don't think "shield camping" is what you do. Sonic just runs up and grabs you if you do that. It's more like you have to keep Sonic out with your huge range.

He doesn't even main Sonic, and he knows how it goes.

I'm too lazy to read the rest of this, but if nobody else will address it I will do it sometime later.

"And our momentum cancel is just as good if not better than his"

No, not even :<
But I trust DMG on this matchup. I've only played Teh_Umby a very few times on wifi, and I likely won't be able to play him until GIMR's tourney. MdrnDayMercutio's sonic is another Sonic I know, but I instead used Diddy.

I would personally say 65:35, but 6:4 is also fine with me.
But really.... Bacon > Steak

It's very easy to say no, but it's much harder to explain, which I just did and you have yet to.

Also HELL TO THE NO!

Get out if you think Steak is < to anything.

Like seriously.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I could've sworn we went through this, but regardless, Spring gets a lot of height... what's G&W going to do, blow me up higher with Uair? Sure it refreshes his moves, but yeah it's much better than being in an unfavorable situation. I would also liek to know how many times Sonic will have to snap the ledge in this matchup, what with his recovery and all that jazz.

Wait for *insert anything including air dodge, spindash, aerial attack* and punish with N-air, Up-B, F-air, etc etc.

Just keep a fresh shield, and bam, G&W's commited Bair becomes punishable with whatever you can imagine.

False. The key thing here is Sonic can't kill G&W from this position. His B-air, U-tilt, and Smashes are all way too slow for that.

I don't care how much damage you can land when I can literally stay 100% safe from anything that can potentially kill me even if I have to approach.

BTW I've already said this in our matchup thread as well, but I can just stand at that distance where you're attacks can't hit me but I'm not on the other side of the stage where if you commit to any move I WILL find some way to punish it. Sonic is great like that.

False, this goes the other way around since G&W's approach can actually hit Sonic and rack on first damage. If Sonic is camping near the ledge, he really can't answer the B-air. AT ALL. No joke. He has to go to the ledge, which is still a horrible position for him.

Keep in mind if I just walk towards you, you have to run away and wait longer for me to actually do something. I'll proceed with this until you're near the ledge, where escaping from a hit is VERY difficult.

 

[Kinzer]

Why would G&W use Up-B if he's the one at the ledge?

Whatever IDRC, like I said before good luck getting Sonic to be put in that kind of a situation.

Why would I waste all that time turning around and jumping and Bairing for example? FTilt works fine from OoS, we can anle it up if necessary (in fact it's encouraged, IIRC we get 1% more damage from a FTilt angled-up). Now that I think about it, you don't even really have to play to kill, in fact that's ********, I just play it all out and I only kill if I notice it, I will wear you down (a lot of people I play usually get under 3 minutes every game because I stall... but I'm one person so perhaps that is not a legitimate argument). AAAAAAAND~ AFAIK Sonic can just run up and grab/ DA if they don't feel like FTilting after the Bair is complete.... another method of damage and potential U-Throw kills should that have to come to.

...So Bair can reach 1/8 of Final Destination?

...Is this the Brawl+ thread with that modification?

I also never made any mention of this being at the edge, this is with both characters at that distance from a neutral position.

Don't just assume what I say isn't true because you think it works another way, you will learn the hard way if you put yourself at denial like that if you are wrong.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

It's very easy to say no, but it's much harder to explain, which I just did and you have yet to.

Also HELL TO THE NO!

Get out if you think Steak is < to anything.

Like seriously.

"And our momentum cancel is just as good if not better than his we move towards the stage after the charge release, G&W on the other hand has to commit to it for about 1/2 a second (and although it doesn't matter here, he can't have a full bucket)."

All you did was explain to me what you do, not how effective it is.
Bucket braking is extremely good; After 35 frames of Nair, you bucket to instantly stop your momentum. The percents you can survive can be pretty extreme http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=479567#p479567

OBM is our little Bucket Braking poster boy on Stream <3

You're right about it taking roughly half a second for Nair to end, but how can you make the claim of it being better, or just as good, when you guys don't even have reliable frame data? I couldn't find cool down for his aerials anywhere :/

Bucket Braking is way superior to Sonic's methods of optimizing his survival using aerials and Charges, as it literally stops G&W immediatly. The charge takes a bit to actually halt momentum; Not bad, but it's definitely not as good as BBing, and you're the first person to try and dispute it.

I dunno why I spent the time with this, as it's not really pertinent to the discussion of the matchup.


Bacon is way too good.

 

[infomon]

Dtilt beats literally everything Sonic can do from the ground

... are you sure?

Our jab is faster, or clashes with the Dtilt if the jab is late, unless we're way too close. Our jab comes out faster than yours, so be careful how you deal with a clash. Our Ftilt should outrange your Dtilt but they'd just clash, we don't have frame data for the different hits of our Ftilt so idk. I think our Dtilt outranges it as well and might be just as fast. We can dash-attack between Dtilts. SH Fair should work too, the spacing might be tricky tho, idk.

 

[Kinzer]

One of our Sonic mains down in Aussieland was actually collecting some frame data for a while, IIRC Fair/Uair was best to use to be able to go for the momentum cancel. I can't be sure and I don't have the reference, but it's out there... somewhere... anyway both come out at frame 4-5, and end pretty quickly (I don't remember the exact number but it's all under 30 frames IIRC, don't quote me on that though)

It also doesn't take long to get off one charge, that is enough to kill momentum.

I also guess you spent the time so that one of us can learn something.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

One other thing I gained from making that post was that I learned that Sonic still has no reliable Frame Data thread. I have just used this knowledge to alert HotGarbage of this fact, so that he may work on you guys once he finishes our revised specials. He's moving on to a new Character section soon, so I put in the good word for you guys

 

[infomon]

djbrowny's frame data is here:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196148

but it's incomplete and doesn't have aerial cool-down times, as Mr. Escalator mentioned.

Sonic's spindash-braking isn't as good as G&W's. For the momentum-cancel, at least. It's pretty darn close, but we don't have frame data for the spindashes yet, either. I'm working on that. Sonic's heavier, but I think our Fair is slower than G&W's Nair. Our Fair is our fastest aerial.

However, as Kinzer mentioned, it leaves us in a better position; it seems like ppl are learning to punish the bucket if/when possible, and Sonic might be able to accomplish this (particularly for vertical kills, although dash > spinshot may work for some horizontal setups).

Then again, with bad DI it's possible that we'll be stuck in a position to down-B towards the killzone, lol. In those cases we might be better off using side-B since we can control the direction, but its startup gives us a slight boost towards the killzone, soo......... idk.

Momentum-cancelling stuff is so freakin' quirky

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why would G&W use Up-B if he's the one at the ledge?

You don't make any sense. Just saying.

Why would I waste all that time turning around and jumping and Bairing for example? FTilt works fine from OoS, we can anle it up if necessary (in fact it's encouraged, IIRC we get 1% more damage from a FTilt angled-up). Now that I think about it, you don't even really have to play to kill, in fact that's ********, I just play it all out and I only kill if I notice it, I will wear you down (a lot of people I play usually get under 3 minutes every game because I stall... but I'm one person so perhaps that is not a legitimate argument). AAAAAAAND~ AFAIK Sonic can just run up and grab/ DA if they don't feel like FTilting after the Bair is complete.... another method of damage and potential U-Throw kills should that have to come to.

See, the thing you miss. I actually have out of shield options like F-air that can KO you. You have none that can KO me (until like 200% or something).

That means G&W has a huge advantage in actually scoring KOs.

I don't care that you can F-tilt out of shield. Your shield won't last forever either. You can't do anything safe on my shield without eventually risking getting KOed. Sucks for Sonic that I can do almost whatever I want if you shield and I don't risk getting KOed ever.

As for G&W's D-tilt vs Sonic's Jab, G&W uses his D-tilt to stop Sonic from running, so the argument about Sonic's Jab beating or clanking with G&W's D-tilt is irrelevant. If Sonic jabs G&W's shield, he gets F-aired. Same thing happens if Sonic F-tilts G&W's shield.

 

[Kinzer]

Why would he? I would just like to know how G&W's Up-B is going to hit Sonic at the ledge from what you're implying about ledge-camping. I would think G&W hasb etter ways to edgeuard than that.

Utilt is usually fresh, though I don't know how often somebody is going to be rushing in with that little turtle to get into that UTilt hitbox. Still you're right, if only by a little bit.

P.S. G&W will die sooner than 200% if Sonic can get that grab into Up-Throw... yeah it ain't much better but it's something, especially when most of my matches for whatever reason my opponents don't like to die too much. :/

Precisely why I would NOT WANT TO attack you're shield. What is G&W going to do when Sonic isn't far away and not in Melee range, flip some Bacon? I can set up a tent at close range, I don't have to go on the offensive, in fact I discourage that with G&W.

And because if I go back and type the textbox will eat words I'll save myself that trouble and add this little tidbit.

Perhaps if the G&W player is sloppy, FSmash has enough range on it and for coming out on like frame 16 or somewhere there, I think it's pretty fast. Just an idea though, I can't really back it up since I do not recall doing such a thing, but I'll be sure to pay attention when I get the next chance.

I won't even comment about DTilt, just because I don't want to.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

If Sonic jabs G&W's shield, he gets F-aired. Same thing happens if Sonic F-tilts G&W's shield.

The ****? Since when can G&W punish a jab OoS with Fair?? I hope you are playing Brawl+ when you say stuff like that, because in actual, OFFLINE, Brawl matches, that's pretty much impossible.

Just sayin.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why would he? I would just like to know how G&W's Up-B is going to hit Sonic at the ledge from what you're implying about ledge-camping. I would think G&W hasb etter ways to edgeuard than that.

You probably misread something. If you're on the ledge, you're going to have one hell of a time getting back up without getting D-aired or D-tilted.

P.S. G&W will die sooner than 200% if Sonic can get that grab into Up-Throw... yeah it ain't much better but it's something, especially when most of my matches for whatever reason my opponents don't like to die too much. :/

Yeah, you're not getting any grabs out of shield just saying (cause Sonic's shield grab range is poor). My point was that Sonic doesn't have any out of shield KO moves on G&W.

Precisely why I would NOT WANT TO attack you're shield. What is G&W going to do when Sonic isn't far away and not in Melee range, flip some Bacon? I can set up a tent at close range, I don't have to go on the offensive, in fact I discourage that with G&W.

You can't do that once G&W gets the percent lead, and he's much better at doing that than Sonic.

Perhaps if the G&W player is sloppy, FSmash has enough range on it and for coming out on like frame 16 or somewhere there, I think it's pretty fast. Just an idea though, I can't really back it up since I do not recall doing such a thing, but I'll be sure to pay attention when I get the next chance.

F-smash is sloooooooooooow. I mean REALLY slow. Anything that's frame 15 is already borderline too slow (Mario's F-smash is about that speed, and so is G&W's D-smash), and if you're any slower than that, you are seriously way too slow especially if it isn't safe on block or miss. G&W's F-smash and U-smash at least are safe attacks despite coming out so slowly. Sonic doesn't have that luxury on his Smashes.

To emphasize how bad Sonic's F-smash is. It has less range than Mario's (stutter stepped), it's slower, and weaker. All in all a mediocre attack.

 

[Kinzer]

Okay, I'll just go with that.

How come?

But he won't always have the % lead, will he?

Even if it would be slow, I just theorycraft it for the range.

Like I said though, I'll keep my eye out for this, I'm not even sure if it works but you never know if it could.

Edit: Actually, FSmash has a bit of disjoint at the very end of the fist.

It kills Marth at the middle of FD at 110% (with no DI).

It's still pretty speedy for a smash, what makes it bad is how unsafe it is to use as an "every other attack" attack.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How come?

I'd like to see you shieldgrab G&W's B-air with a character other than ROB or DDD.

Aside from that, the attacks you can use out of shield on G&W don't kill.

But he won't always have the % lead, will he?

Hey, as I was saying, I can at least have a chance at hitting you if I approach since Sonic doesn't have the tools to make a broken defensive game. Good luck doing the same back to G&W.

It's still pretty speedy for a smash, what makes it bad is how unsafe it is to use as an "every other attack" attack.

Speedy? Hardly. Metaknight's D-smash is fast. Marth's F-smash is fast. Wario's F-smash is fast. Falco's U-smash is fast.

Mario's F-smash is not fast. G&W's D-smash is not fast. Sonic's F-smash is slower than those. Get the idea? These are attacks that you can just easily block on reaction in 99.9999% of situations unless your opponent whiffed something extremely laggy (like Marth's F-smash).

 

[Kinzer]

Meta Knight's DSmash is fast because of technical design failure, that thing shouldn't even be as fast for as powerful as it is. Of course everything else pales when you compare it so something like THAT! Marf's Forward smash has bad ending lag and the hitbox doesn't even come out as fast as you activate it like MKs. Apply last situation with Wario and add super armor and substract the smash not coming out the same time it is released. Falco is okay I guess...

As for everything else...

Sonic is only the fastest runner in the game, and Sonic isn't really meant to play defensive, but he still has something... but I guess it Doesn't Matter in the end, it's all about maximizing options, or at least both players for said characters would want to do this.

 

[Chis]

Cough, cough

Hmmm, 14 inches of pain is really good with Sonic, but I've only used Mario against him.

He's basing this on theory guys? >_>

 

[Kinzer]

I used to theorycraft a lot more back then.

It worked 99% of the time.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Dtilt has funky hitboxes; it seems to hit under some crazy stuff. I don't know Sonic well enough to be sure about how well it hits under something like jab (you may be surprised). It probably does clash with your ftilt (but I think it's faster?), but the gimmick is the range. I aim at you with max range dtilt so your jab isn't really a factor. If you clash with it, I just dtilt again immediately. Maybe more modern Sonics are solid enough to be able to clash and approach with a slight frame advantage or something, but my experience indicates that Sonic doesn't really win if he stays on the ground when I dtilt at the max range against Sonic which actually has a relatively workable window of error thanks to Snoic's fantastic range. I'm not one of those silly "Sonic is 10-90 against a good dtilt" people, but just using it to limit Sonic and inspire him to jump seems to work well.

Anyway, I remember how hilarious it was counterpicking Rainbow Cruise on a Sonic in tournament. Any stage that forces you to jump a lot (Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, Green Greens) seems to really magnify your advantage a lot. I like banning Final Destination on him as well; making Sonic jump is too good.

 

[Kinzer]

Don't CP Sonic on GGs.

I can't wait to see Boxob come in here and randomly explain why I'm right on that.

 

[omegablackmage]

ok so far i've seen people arguing that dtilt beats everything sonic has on the ground. This seems to be true, but what happens to me when i try this against good players is they run in, powersheild it, and then grab. Im sure sonic is also capable of this.

When in the air, im pretty sure sonic loses to all of gw's aerials. He's known for having a lack of priority, so this really doesn't help him here.

Spindashes etc are nice mixups right but they all lose to the dtilt? that would make them a bit less useful.

Overall what i see is a very fast character that is going to be forced to get a lot of grabs in order to compete with the gw player. He has good recovery of course too which helps.

Im thinking around 65/35 right now, unless what i've posted is wrong

 

[Hylian]

I'm going to say it right now Hylian. You're overrated.

You're not close to being the best G&W around when you think Snake is G&W's worst matchup (it's Marth. Marth by far is worse to G&W).

If Sonic is giving you trouble, you have major problems. I notice you get a lot of comments about playing too aggressively. Step it down a notch and shieldcamp against him. Seriously, if there is one character besides Ike that gets screwed over big time by shield camping, it's Sonic. G&W shieldcamps Sonic EXTREMELY well due to his powerful punish options.

This matchup is so ridiculously in G&W's favor, it's dumb. All you need to do is shieldcamp and edgecamp. This matchup is dumber than G&W dittos by far. I hate and despise it. I used to think Sonic did well against G&W until I started camping him back the way I do. This matchup takes like a million years, but Sonic can't touch you as long as you're not dumb. Approaching sucks a lot in this matchup, but unlike G&W, Sonic doesn't have a way of setting up a perfect defensive game.

Bottom line: Sonic is the gayest low tier in Brawl. He's super gay, and sucks ****. Both at the same time.

I'm going to say it right now, you make yourself look like an idiot way to often.

If you seriously think someones opinion on match-ups directly ties into their skill then you really need to reevaluate your worth as a poster. You seriously just told me because I'm overrated my opinion doesn't mean anything. You probably don't know the first thing about sonic. At least I've played the best sonics in the world for the most part. I think the match-up is 65-35, which isn't good for sonic by any stretch of the imagination so I don't really know what your blowing up over. Your arguments are usually ridiculous and I've actually had people PM me and complain about you which is amazing. I usually just ignore your posts actually now.

 

[Kinzer]

When in the air, im pretty sure sonic loses to all of gw's aerials. He's known for having a lack of priority, so this really doesn't help him here.

Spindashes etc are nice mixups right but they all lose to the dtilt? that would make them a bit less useful.

Overall what i see is a very fast character that is going to be forced to get a lot of grabs in order to compete with the gw player. He has good recovery of course too which helps.

Im thinking around 65/35 right now, unless what i've posted is wrong

Uair can be spaced to beat Dair, but yeah I guess so.

They can clank.

Don't really care, 65:35 is fine, if you want to say 6:4 or 55:45, it's your choice.

I'm going to say it right now, you make yourself look like an idiot way to often.

If you seriously think someones opinion on match-ups directly ties into their skill then you really need to reevaluate your worth as a poster. You seriously just told me because I'm overrated my opinion doesn't mean anything. You probably don't know the first thing about sonic. At least I've played the best sonics in the world for the most part. I think the match-up is 65-35, which isn't good for sonic by any stretch of the imagination so I don't really know what your blowing up over. Your arguments are usually ridiculous and I've actually had people PM me and complain about you which is amazing. I usually just ignore your posts actually now.

>.>

<.<

Yet I agree with this too...

/Bias for people who won't be moved.

 

[DMG]

I'm going to say it right now Hylian. You're overrated.

You're not close to being the best G&W around when you think Snake is G&W's worst matchup (it's Marth. Marth by far is worse to G&W).

Stop here. Snake is harder than Marth. Snake is heavier, kills a lot better, can actively camp G&W as opposed to Marth's camping and punishing OOS, Snake has a better recovery, and he does a lot more damage per hit than Marth. I actually think Diddy is about the same or harder than Marth, and then Snake is harder than Diddy for G&W.

If Sonic is giving you trouble, you have major problems. I notice you get a lot of comments about playing too aggressively. Step it down a notch and shieldcamp against him. Seriously, if there is one character besides Ike that gets screwed over big time by shield camping, it's Sonic. G&W shieldcamps Sonic EXTREMELY well due to his powerful punish options.

This matchup is so ridiculously in G&W's favor, it's dumb. All you need to do is shieldcamp and edgecamp. This matchup is dumber than G&W dittos by far. I hate and despise it. I used to think Sonic did well against G&W until I started camping him back the way I do. This matchup takes like a million years, but Sonic can't touch you as long as you're not dumb. Approaching sucks a lot in this matchup, but unlike G&W, Sonic doesn't have a way of setting up a perfect defensive game.

Bottom line: Sonic is the gayest low tier in Brawl. He's super gay, and sucks ****. Both at the same time.

Shield camping a character like Sonic is not exactly easy. He has a fast dash, a ton of BS spindash/jump fakeout mindgame stuff, he has insane priority on the initial hop of Side B, and he can also hit your shield relatively safely. You have a lot more range over him, but you can't just go "lolol I'm in my shield, u can't get me".

But hey, it's not like I actually know anything about G&W's matchups. :D

 

[Hylian]

I think we should take into consideration that Hylian, one of the best G&W's around, lost to malcolm, a sonic player at CoT4. Also i think this matchup is sumwhere around 6:4G&W and maybe as close as 55:45. This is assuming that both know the matchup and are competent players

Uh, no I didn't lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Stop here. Snake is harder than Marth. Snake is heavier, kills a lot better, can actively camp G&W as opposed to Marth's camping and punishing OOS, Snake has a better recovery, and he does a lot more damage per hit than Marth. I actually think Diddy is about the same or harder than Marth, and then Snake is harder than Diddy for G&W.

False, Snake can't actively camp people. His grenades and other explosives are very easy to consciously avoid and pose no actual direct threat.

He kills better, but his defensive game isn't nearly as good as that of Marth's. He's much easier to edgeguard, and actually can be hit with Smashes upon landing.

Marth can actually approach G&W and be a direct threat by spacing outside of his range or pressuring his shield with D-tilt and Dancing Blade which G&W has an extremely hard time answering.

I've discussed this matchup a lot with InsomniaK, one of the better G&Ws in Socal (he's better than me for starters) and he has done well against Hall, one of the better Snakes in my area. We both agree Snake can't possibly be G&W's hardest matchup.

Shield camping a character like Sonic is not exactly easy. He has a fast dash, a ton of BS spindash/jump fakeout mindgame stuff, he has insane priority on the initial hop of Side B, and he can also hit your shield relatively safely. You have a lot more range over him, but you can't just go "lolol I'm in my shield, u can't get me".

Actually you can go "lol I'm in my shield, u can't get me" because the only thing he has that can remotely counter that is a fakeout into a grab. And his throws really lead to nothing. As long as you shield, he can't hit you with anything else, and he can't kill you.

If he ever goes in the air, he is exposed to N-air and Up-B which counter his entire aerial moveset.

If he hits your shield with stuff on the ground, you can usually just jump out of shield and hit him with stuff.

You can even GRAB him out of spindash. Running away and pivot grabbing is actually pretty safe in this matchup.

Shield counters Sonic. He has no answers to it that can KO you.

 

[infomon]

A lot of talk about G&W beating our spindashes, and Dtilt beating everything we do.

Your Dtilt will clash with our jab, Dtilt, Ftilt, dash-attack, and rolling spindash, except for those first few under some exceptional errors of timing/spacing. So if you think you're stopping our approaches with Dtilt, either the Sonic's just running into you, or we're going to clash a lot.

The result of a clash depends on spacing, but Sonic's actually set to win. Your jab comes out on frame 4, ours on frame 3. That single-frame advantage is all we need. Both of our dash attacks come out on frame 4. Our Dtilts and Ftilts are all frame 6, although our Ftilt is funny so I'm less confident about that one. Your aerials are all too slow to matter from a clash.

Your jab is bizarre anyway so idk how much G&W's will even try to use it; I guess it has transcendent priority? Because our Dtilt/Ftilt seem to go right through it and hit the G&W. Maybe that was just strange timing though, I didn't get to test this for long. Our tilts are less disjointed, but have longer range. So again it's some delicate timing/spacing war. If we clashed close, our jab > everything you have. From farther away, Sonics won't be jabbing so we'll either win or clash. There might be some in-between where your jab wins, but we may be able to get out and punish with a tilt before it ends lol.

That's ignoring shield, of course. So Sonic will usually win if we both attack ASAP from a clash. Assume G&W will win if we hit your shield. Assume we usually win if you hit ours, although for less damage (I guess our options are jab, tilt, Fair, or shieldgrab). From the clash, our jabs and dash-attacks both beat a grab, but grab will beat tilts (but take the damage; grab-armor lolz). I'm not sure whose grab-range is longer, but call controller-port johns if we're close.

idk, seems very rock-paper-scissors to me. Advantage to Sonic in landing an attack from a clash, advantage to G&W if we hit your shield, then prediction comes into play. But Sonic had a very good chance of beating your Dtilt in the first place. You're better off trying to grab him from spindash, or defending with aerials if we're closing in. Of course, that's what we'll be expecting..... but it's quite tough.

Our aerials definitely lose out because yours are all mad-disjointed. But 4/5 come out later than ours, so w/e. Even though we're reasonably fast in the air, we're fairly committed so you'll see us coming and win an aerial war. Usually.

All of that IMO, and I'm going to be re-checking the Sonic frame-data.

 

[DMG]

Lol.

Lol.

Snake's camping is far more active than Marth's, he forces you to move or get hit quite a bit. Marth sits there or Fairs and retreats or Dtilts and waits.

You can edgeguard Marth a lot easier than edgeguarding Snake. Snake can fly up high, drop a nikita/nade/c4 and B Reverse it. Marth is limited to either airdodging or Fair usually (the occasional counter if he isn't too far out). I dunno why you think Snake is easier to edgeguard, 99% of the time he is not.

Snake can also Dthrow tech chase G&W retardedly easy, jab once and then either shield, regrab, Ftilt, etc. If the jab connects, it goes right into another grab/Ftilt/Utilt. Jab covers you standing still, shield covers him after the jab if you get up attack, Ftilt/Regrab catches you after the jab if you try to roll behind him, and he can also run forward and grab or Ftilt you after his jab if you roll away. Don't get me started on Dairing either, does a lot of damage and kills soon.


Shielding is vulnerable to grabs, hence when Sonic approaches you either make a move or he can grab you. If you make a move, he can wait for it and punish you afterwards. It's kinda like Rock Paper Scissors.

1. Sonic runs towards you, you shield and he grabs you.
2. Sonic runs towards you, you Dtilt and beat his grab.
3. Sonic runs towards you, you Dtilt and his waited attack beats you.
4. Sonic runs towards you, you shield and his waited attack hits your shield and he gets punished or gains nothing.

Now, obviously that is quite over simplified, but you get the general idea that shielding is not flawless or near god like, it's just an option in the Rock Papers Scissors scheme of things.

Edit: Lol I type this and Infzy mentions RPS. Too good. :D

 

[Kinzer]

Dont' forget to take into account stale-move negation Infzy, the only thing worse than a SDR approach is a weakened SDR approach.