Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[A2ZOMG]

OMG no, Fow is one of the best Ness players. He's not horrible at all.

His spacing was actually good in that match. He actually landed sweetspotted B-airs.

 

[Levitas]

I'm confused. You're using an online ladder ranking to justify your claim that the ness player is legit?

For what it matters, I have never heard of this guy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You can check the rest of his profile if you're not lazy. He's a really good Ness main. And he got 3stocked....by a guy who doesn't even main G&W...

And anyone can and will john about wifi, but if you're placing within the top 50 of the allisbrawl ladder (incentive to do so is actual cash prizes), you have to be crazy good. Whether it's wifi or not you have to simply be pretty darn good to actually place high on anything. <_<

 

[ColinJF]

OMG no, Fow is one of the best Ness players. He's not horrible at all.

His spacing was actually good in that match. He actually landed sweetspotted B-airs.

Holy ****! He must be pretty ****ing good to land sweetspotted aerials.

The last time I played Mr. Game & Watch I landed -- get this -- at least three up air to fish bowl chains. I also killed by using the key as a meteor. And what's more my spacing was so impeccable I didn't even take any damage the whole match. I must be one of the best Mr. Game & Watch players! I'm so good I can beat any Ganon or Mario player even though I don't play Mr. Game & Watch.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Like I said, maybe he just didn't know the matchup and fell apart because of it. He played like a bad player even if he's not one in general.

His spacing was bad because he got hit by way too much stupid stuff. The Mr. Game & Watch player was basically doing whatever he wanted, and Fow was obliging him by running into everything. He was always standing in the wrong place to avoid being hit. Speaking of spacing, he didn't really use Ness's smashes which are pretty good at challenging Mr. Game & Watch's range, especially the up smash.

Anyway, most of this board doesn't consider WiFi significant so citing his AiB record doesn't prove much by those standards. However, if you feel WiFi is convincing of skill and quality in general, maybe you should play Colin on WiFi? If you can produce a few replays of you three stocking him, you'll change my mind at least. WiFi really isn't the best test of skills, but since you have such faith in it, I have no problem going with it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Irrelevant. The point is it's a chore for Ness to work inside G&W's range and challenge it. The player obviously was good enough to do that, but he couldn't kill for crap against a competent G&W user.

And no...your matchup analysis is horrible. Seriously. I could point out a billion times where G&W "got hit by stupid stuff" in that match. <_<

 

[_Phloat_]

So he is 35 and 3? We are talking about not only wifi butba community of lesser skilled players (at leat that is my personal opinion) but on a system that often is plagued by cheaters...

 

[_clinton]

Calling Lucas the bad Ness is somewhat annoying to me...but whatever

 

[A2ZOMG]

Honestly, it's debatable if Ness is better than Lucas. I mean, it's really close.

Lucas doesn't get outright gimped as much, suffers slightly less from grab release combos IIRC, camps better, has a better F-smash, and punishes rolls and dodges pretty hard with D-smash.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Irrelevant. The point is it's a chore for Ness to work inside G&W's range and challenge it. The player obviously was good enough to do that, but he couldn't kill for crap against a competent G&W user.

And no...your matchup analysis is horrible. Seriously. I could point out a billion times where G&W "got hit by stupid stuff" in that match. <_<

So? Everyone except for guys like Ganon and Bowser lose badly if you just randomly trade hits with Mr. Game & Watch.

Anyway, you have been called out. You claimed pretty clearly you take WiFi seriously. Either back down on that claim or play the game. I eagerly await the replays.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So? Everyone except for guys like Ganon and Bowser lose badly if you just randomly trade hits with Mr. Game & Watch.

Exactly why Ness does badly against G&W. Not only is it not even easy for him to trade hits, he doesn't have many good KO moves for doing that.

Anyway, you have been called out. You claimed pretty clearly you take WiFi seriously. Either back down on that claim or play the game. I eagerly await the replays.

I'll take the challenge. I might need to figure out how to enable the >3minutes replay code. Also....I literally don't have any time this weekend.

 

[ColinJF]

It was AA's challenge, not mine (he didn't even ask me...). I have no particular desire to play you on WiFi, but I suppose I'd be happy to beat your Ganon with Mr. Game & Watch (and other match ups I suppose).

 

[cutter]

These last couple of pages have made my eyes bleed. :/

 

[Hylian]

Ness is done. We might revisit the match-up later.

Please keep current discussion on Lucas.

 

[ToxiCrow]

G+W destroys lucas.
he's part of lucas' "Deadly Four"
G+W shuts down PKF (bair, bucket) , which is probably lucas' main spacing tool.
Gdubs nair overides lucas' which is his 2nd best approach
downthrow to downsmash isnt that big of a problem once you know how to tech.
but most of Gdubs attacks come out faster and hit harder
Lucas cant PKT gimp.
finally, lucas cant camp G+w

the only thing that helps lucas is G+w's light weight. but bucket breaking helps you out there. =/
-represent

 

[Levitas]

Is there really anything left to say here? If not, dwelling on this matchup might be a waste of time.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Sorry for going off on that tangent with A2. I'll try to make up for it with some stage stuff. Ness will be mentioned, but I'll keep it in the lens of Lucas.

Lucas (and Ness for that matter) are a bit tricky because he likes a lot of the same stages you do. Lucas can bucket lasers on Corneria and generally does well with small blast zones (so Corneria and Green Greens both aren't so great - he can also PKT2 through the blocks like Ness to really mess with you). The Lucas player I knew claimed to love Norfair too, but I only got to see it in action with Lucas when I was teamed with him and had a feeling the stage was overall more working for Mr. Game & Watch than for Lucas. I know Rainbow Cruise is a bad Ness stage, but I'm not so sure about how it pans out for Lucas. It's probably better for Lucas than for Ness due to less PKT2 use in general, but either way it should work well (lots of chances to get under him, few chances for him to focus on camping you). Another stage to think about is Jungle Japes; Lucas doesn't really have anything to compensate for bucket braking, and his Pk Thunder is slow enough that you can stop your ledge games on reaction and perhaps punish when he uses it depending on how he is using it (Lucas's down aerial, while amazing, is going to be very tricky to use to dislodge you from the ledge, and he really doesn't have anything else that will realistically dislodge you). The Lucas I knew really hated Lylat Cruise, but I think he was just being silly (never learning how to recover on that stage). I wouldn't pick it against a Lucas that was worrying me enough to have to pick a good stage.

As per the other direction, I don't think Lucas has any really overwhelmingly positive stages against you (his beloved Corneria is good for you too). I'd personally probably ban Final Destination since I like playing platforms, but it probably doesn't matter too much.

 

[PKNintendo]

If Ness and Lucas play the same against Mr. Game & Watch, those would have to be some pretty awful players, probably the Ness players playing badly (Ness's forward aerial changes everything; it's so good!). Really, Ness and Lucas are very, very different. I don't want to get in a war with anyone over how good Ness and Lucas are so I'll try to focus mostly on what they do against Mr. Game & Watch.

Anyway, Lucas is pretty easy to beat, but he's not ridiculously easy or anything. Lucas has a VERY good down aerial which isn't especially effective against Mr. Game & Watch but is a big thing to look out for regardless. Lucas will use it to rack huge damage if you leave yourself open to it. Moving past Lucas's ace in the hole move, Lucas is mostly going to focus on answering what you do and being careful while trying to exploit his general high level of power. Lucas has a pretty solid pivot grab that he can kinda camp with to make spacing him tricky, and his shieldgrab with the long range tether makes him more difficult than average to shield pressure. His tilts are all pretty decent, and you always have to be careful of that fsmash which kills low. His down smash is something that's interesting if nothing else. It's not actually that good, but it hits in a really odd way that forces you to alter what you do defensively in front of him a bit to accommodate. Lucas can also use his nair kinda like Mr. Game & Watch uses his. It's a lot worse, but it's kinda fast and hurts if he snares you in it.

A lot of Lucas players make him look bad by focusing on bad offensive moves like up smash, Pk Fire, and Pk Freeze (all of Lucas's specials are bad except for recovery and energy projectile absorption actually). The general way Lucas goes about it, in short, is camping with his grab and safe jab/tilts while punishing with his strong fsmash and using the times he happens to be in the air to try to snare you with a few high damage moves. The fact that Mr. Game & Watch has a lot of flat out superior tools to prevent Lucas from taking the battle to the air really does limit him a lot (Lucas at least has pretty good aerial mobility so he can get down when the situation calls for it), but Lucas isn't particularly easier to beat than most other low tiers. All around he's probably 65/35*.

*HOWEVER, I should point out that it would be a total joke to ever give Lucas a better score than Ness; Ness is simply a radically bigger threat than Lucas could ever be. Lucas is indeed very different from Ness, but a lot of the reason is that in a lot of moveslots Ness either has a radically superior version of the move (uair, bair, bthrow, Pk Thunder) or a move really fundamentally different that's actually functional while Lucas's move in that place is either awful or just really limited (usmash, dash grab, fair). It really just lets Ness do a lot more to Mr. Game & Watch than Lucas can, especially in terms of being able to actually apply pressure instead of having to play mostly reactively. Lucas has a few things that are better, but they don't save him from being "the bad Ness" any more than Fox's stuff like that saves him from being "the bad Falco" (having a tether grab is really the only advantage Lucas has that is a big help against Mr. Game & Watch, though his ridiculously good recovery is nice too). Really, Ness should be 60-40, but since this isn't about Ness, I don't really want to lay out the case now. I'm not sure what I suggest putting in for Lucas's score actually, but whatever it is, it definitely needs to be a worse number than Ness has.

Excellent analysis.

Irrelevant. The point is it's a chore for Ness to work inside G&W's range and challenge it. The player obviously was good enough to do that, but he couldn't kill for crap against a competent G&W user.

And no...your matchup analysis is horrible. Seriously. I could point out a billion times where G&W "got hit by stupid stuff" in that match. <_<

And your video and arguments are any better? You barely gave input in the matchup. Seriously play the matchup against a GOOD player, before making such ridiculous claims.

Do you G&W think we'll just back down and say ''oh 3-7 for G&W'' the old me might of but not now. I know better than that.

G&W mains.
Only they can get off with posting crap like that

I appreciate AA for working on his analylis.

 

[_clinton]

Excellent analysis.

Meh...I disagree with a lot of it...but for different reasons...

 

[Ruuku]

He's a good Lucas player in action for people that may be underestimating him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHhHzsDj5N4

 

[c3gill]

Lucas (and Ness for that matter) are a bit tricky because he likes a lot of the same stages you do. Lucas can bucket lasers on Corneria and generally does well with small blast zones (so Corneria and Green Greens both aren't so great - he can also PKT2 through the blocks like Ness to really mess with you). The Lucas player I knew claimed to love Norfair too, but I only got to see it in action with Lucas when I was teamed with him and had a feeling the stage was overall more working for Mr. Game & Watch than for Lucas. I know Rainbow Cruise is a bad Ness stage, but I'm not so sure about how it pans out for Lucas. It's probably better for Lucas than for Ness due to less PKT2 use in general, but either way it should work well (lots of chances to get under him, few chances for him to focus on camping you). Another stage to think about is Jungle Japes; Lucas doesn't really have anything to compensate for bucket braking, and his Pk Thunder is slow enough that you can stop your ledge games on reaction and perhaps punish when he uses it depending on how he is using it (Lucas's down aerial, while amazing, is going to be very tricky to use to dislodge you from the ledge, and he really doesn't have anything else that will realistically dislodge you). The Lucas I knew really hated Lylat Cruise, but I think he was just being silly (never learning how to recover on that stage). I wouldn't pick it against a Lucas that was worrying me enough to have to pick a good stage.

As per the other direction, I don't think Lucas has any really overwhelmingly positive stages against you (his beloved Corneria is good for you too). I'd personally probably ban Final Destination since I like playing platforms, but it probably doesn't matter too much.

Spot on. Most stages that a Lucas generally considers in his advantage are epic failures against a decent G&W. Norfair is a favorite of mine, and G&W totally rocks faces against Lucas on this stage. ditto goes for Brinstar, G&W just straight outmanuvers us, and giving yall space in this matchup generally means a loss for Lucas. Rainbow Cruise isnt a bad stage for Lucas, not at all- Zap jumping more than covers the entire stage here. I would say Rainbow Cruise is more of a neutral stage for this matchup. And you mention Lylat Cruise, as most G&W players like platforms, I try to avoid this stage as Lucas (and the tilting, that is a pain )

If I know that I am going to play a good G&W player, and i am definatly playing Lucas, I would love playing on Final Destination, and hate playing on Lylat cruise and Yoshi's Island(Brawl....).

G+W destroys lucas.
he's part of lucas' "Deadly Four"
G+W shuts down PKF (bair, bucket) , which is probably lucas' main spacing tool.
Gdubs nair overides lucas' which is his 2nd best approach
downthrow to downsmash isnt that big of a problem once you know how to tech.
but most of Gdubs attacks come out faster and hit harder
Lucas cant PKT gimp.
finally, lucas cant camp G+w

the only thing that helps lucas is G+w's light weight. but bucket breaking helps you out there. =/
-represent

Yea G&W is our worst match up. This match is a good reason to have a second.
As Lucas I seem to Dsmash more in this match than i do generally.... Most Game and Watchers arent used to seeing a Lucas use it often. I think I use it more because of that **** bucket absorbing my PK Fire

 

[Chuee]

This matchup is murder. Bucket and Bair kill almost everything we have. Bucket can knock out our PKF which pretty much knocks out most of our spacing. Our PKT1 will hardly ever gimp him. He can just bucket it but even if he doesnt hes not gonna get gimped. But lucky for us our Dair is safe.

 

[_Phloat_]

Lol, this is so dead with OBM and Hylian away at CoT4

 

[Pheonix]

Get Lucas offstage and bucket his PKT1

lolphail

 

[_clinton]

Get Lucas offstage and bucket his PKT1

lolphail

I thought we were in agreement that while G&W has the gimp + it still isn't in his full favor...

 

[_Phloat_]

Yea, there is no doubt this is GaW's favor... The bucket gimp isn't that common but there are other methods to edgeguard.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Uair/UpB gimp is so much more fun, anyways!
Let's move it along!

 

[omegablackmage]

Lucas: (75/25)

General Matchup:

• Lucas has a strong projectile game, very fast kill potential, and is pretty quick.
• His priority lies in his disjointed attacks, which is most of them. The ones with range are the ones to look out for, like his bat, ftilt, upsmash, dair, bair, etc. These moves certainly have the potential to interrupt you if placed correctly.
• Kill moves, at least against gw, will have to be almost entirely fsmashes. The move is freakishly fast, incredibly strong, has decent range, its one of the best smashes. Other kill moves are upsmash (very slow though), dsmash, and possibly up air, or a random spike (bair, dair).
• To recover, lucas has a few options. He can zap jump and magnet pull to drastically increase the distance he can move by only using his double jump. On top of that pkt2 has great range and he has a tether as well. However, fairs can interrupt the zap jump and it can be risky. The bucket can steal the thunder killing lucas, and the up b can push him too far away, also killing him. They're best bet is to sneak around gw and grapple, which can be tricky with so many lingering hitboxes. Keep fairs in their way, and have a method to steal their up b.
• They don't have a lot to edgeguard with that would keep them out of risk, possibly a pk fire. They're best bet is to ledge hog and wait for gw to go over and score an aerial.
• Lucas has a few combos, dthrow to uptilt works at very low percents. Dtilt to fsmash can be a combo if it trips you. Theres also a few setups with the dair that can work at higher percents for fsmashes.
• Lucas can't buffer a roll for the dthrow, so dthrow when you can expect no tech, and his tech roll isn't amazing either. There's quite a few things he can b stick etc, so i would probably do mostly dthrows, upthrows for the surprise. A small frame makes it semi difficult to combo, but the usual stuff should work.

General Strategies:

• His gameplay is pretty dependent on good zoning with projectiles and good use of his hitboxes to set up into hits with the bat. Bucketing really hurts his zoning game, and when trying to approach, lucas usually gets swatted away in the air or on the ground by the dtilt. This can make trying to get anywhere near gw a complete pain. Also, almost none of his aerials can out prioritize anything gw has, also making it really hard.
• His recovery options are quite limited against gw, mainly because of the bucket/upair/up b and lingering hitboxes. This can make it incredibly difficult for them to make it back to the stage, cutting their stocks drastically short often times.
• This is matchup is rated so heavily in gw's favor because he has every means to shut down lucas defensive and offensive game. His recovery falters very hard when facing against gw as well. His one saving grace in this matchup is probably not having too hard of a time killing gw, however it will be hard for lucas to rack up damage.

Stages:

• Rainbow Cruise/Frigate Orpheon probably work well against lucas. Any neutral probably would be fine too.
• Avoid brinstar and norfair, those tend to be lucas's best stages.

 

[Neb]

8/ 2.
The CF Boards have it as 7/3.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There really isn't much to Captain Falcon. You're only going to lose to him if the Falcon is much much better than you. He can pretty much do nothing safe against you except the occasional Jab combos. His kill moves all suck. They have reasonable knockback, but extremely poor applications. He can combo into his Knee from an autocanceled D-air....only at specific percents.

All in all, this matchup goes to G&W. You approach better. You combo better for all practical purposes. You outspace him. You out-defend him. You easily **** his predictable recovery. All of your Smashes are faster, stronger, and safer than his. Falcon just doesn't have anything special going for him in Brawl.

I agree with 8/2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nfllneBO_k

 

[_Phloat_]

A wifi with a guy that uses Falcon Punch?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't care about the Falcon Punch. The Falcon was reasonably competent and that match basically sums up what Falcon has on G&W. Very little. I edgeguard him easily, among other dumb things that pretty much makes the matchup unwinnable for Falcon.

 

[Player-3]

>_>
the amount of sadness i feel when someone plays my falcon with GW ...
its almost as bad as when i play ROB and someone steals my gyro...

theres nothing to argue...8/2 gdubs

 

[_Phloat_]

I don't agree that he was that competent, although I do agree that wifi probably made it slower for both of you. This probably hurt you more than him, because he relies on mistakes while GaW just has to space in this matchup.. Lag = Mistakes.

I agree that even if he was competent the match woulda ended the same, maybe he woulda got a kill or something but he wouldn't have won. This match is dumb....

 

[Dxkid]

no need for explaination

this match up: LOL

it is as bad as us vs MK >_>

 

[_Phloat_]

This might be a waste of a week, what say we make this a 2 day or even 1 day thing OBM? I wanna get to re-discussing stuff fairly soon, these 9/1s and 8/2s should go by faster.

I understand this last week though, CoT 4 was more important =]

 

[Neb]

I say we do Falcon until after tomorrow, then move onto someone else.
Either Jiggs, Sonic, or Game & Watch.

 

[_Phloat_]

GaW... I would rather people not know how to play that one. I normally do well in GaW dittos.

 

[K 2]

C. Falcon has no priority of G&W's hugely disjointed moveset. I can't see any reliable way of racking damage/landing a kill move on G&W safely

8/2

 

[Cyan_]

Yeah, 8/2.

Can CF's utilt outrange any of GW's attacks aerials?