Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Dont get grabbed, then!
There, Down Throw is out of the equation, Squirtle gets destroyed :]
Honestly, I don't think PT does well at all in this matchup.

LOL,If that happened,Then we should not consider DDD as a threat to snake,or Falco as high as he is. .Not to mention the Ice climbers.

Although Squirtle grab can leave him defenseless to a smash from GW,Might as well try to Sheild grab to be safe.Even if it will not kill him,Its enogh time for a switch.

Squirtle vs GW 40:60 GW advantage
Ivy VS. GW 35:65 GWbadvantage
Charizard VS. GW 35:65 GW advantage.


Thats what my Nonbiased part and everyone else says.

 

[K 2]

LOL,If that happened,Then we should not consider DDD as a threat to snake,or Falco as high as he is. .Not to mention the Ice climbers.

Although Squirtle grab can leave him defenseless to a smash from GW,Might as well try to Sheild grab to be safe.Even if it will not kill him,Its enogh time for a switch.

Squirtle vs GW 40:60 GW advantage
Ivy VS. GW 35:65 GWbadvantage
Charizard VS. GW 35:65 GW advantage.


Thats what my Nonbiased part says.

DDD's grab range is insane. If you aren't pixel-perfect with your spacing, you will get grabbed. Falco has reliable set-ups for grabs, such as jab -> grab or silent laser -> grab. The IC's aren't high on the tier list. They are number 12 or 14. Its easy not getting grabbed by them, since they have one of the worst grab ranges in the game.

65:35 overall sounds about right.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Squirtle has things like shell shifting,he also has a "range on his throws for a little guy"Grabbing is not hard unless you are The IC's,who are expected to grab you everytime.It is punishible though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

i think squirtle does better than ivysaur, but that's just me.

rainbow cruise is a good cp.

I actually agree with this statement by far. Squirtle is MASSIVELY underrated by most PT users.

Squirtle, while lacking range, is better at staying safe due to his mobility. Due to his high attack speed, he can combo G&W a bit, and he doesn't have trouble scoring the KO if he can get a grab. Squirtle is probably fast enough to jump out of shield and punish some of G&W's stuff with aerials if he's in range, and his 1 frame jab can be annoying to deal with.

G&W still wins due to being plain better. G&W is more powerful on his solidly safe moveset, and Squirtle has a horrible recovery that like the other two, can be punished very easily.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Well I guess this matchup is done.Now for the stages.

Well I say things like Brinstar help out PT's fail recoveries,so that works to their advantage.
Although FD is a good stage as you can get lucky if Squirtles Waterfall gets stuck.Same can happen with fly,and GW can aerial more easily.

 

[typh]

GAW does well on low ceilings which unfortunately is one of PT's only good counterpick criteria.

and just imo char>squirt>ivy against the gaw

 

[Mr. Escalator]

at first you were like

Well

Squirtle gets ***** in this matchup.Being Light and GW's killing power does not mix.GW aerials will outrange Squirtles.Gw Favors 70:30
...
Ivysaur does alot better.
55:45 Gw favor
...
Charizard will probaly be your main choice.

and now you are like

Squirtle vs GW 40:60 GW advantage
Ivy VS. GW 35:65 GWbadvantage
Charizard VS. GW 35:65 GW advantage.

I thought squirtle got *****, boy.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Well that was my opinoion,I LISTEN TO OTHER PEOPLE.One person does not think for others.Squirtle still will be beaten by GW.Please can we discuss the matchup here.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

More like you can't think for yourself, so you change your mind to mimic others.
AH WELL, PROCEED TO DISCUSS.

 

[Steeler]

charizard's grab range is better than dedede's, by the way.

AA i challenge you whenever we meet up next!! >:]

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

More like you can't think for yourself, so you change your mind to mimic others.
AH WELL, PROCEED TO DISCUSS.

More like summarizing what everyone else says,Instead of assuming like you.I took in what everyone had to say and made the matchup based on everyones opinion.I still think Char is better than Squirtle in this matchup,but others say different.( PS I also forgot that squirtles aerials come out faster than GW aerials)

Anyways I think Pirate ship is the best stage for PT as there recovery disadvantages are negated.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Unfortunately, PT gets ***** by G&W there. Nothing on PT, but G&W breaks that stage. His water camping is too good, and he can exploit several things there involving going under the water. Not a good stage to take him to.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

You have any suggestions?I have nothing right now except for Criteria and maybe Brinstar for PT and almost everything else for GW.

 

[Neb]

And to add, having quicker aerials is an insignificant aspect of the Squirtle vs G&W pair-up (in most cases), especially since Squirtle is up against a character with bountiful amounts of disjointed hitboxes. It'd be a completely different story if Squirtle had a tool separate from his hurtbox (i.e. a sword). All we have to do is give Squirtle a slap on the hand every time he approaches. If he's lucky enough to get inside Game & Watch's bubble, he can simply upb away, resetting the neutral state.

 

[_Phloat_]

I would say it comes to personal preference.

There are few stages that actually hurt GaW more than the opponent. His attributes aren't always situational.

I would CP corneria against PT, and camp the fin. Wasting time against PT is the only thing I really do, it works ok for me =\. Never played a good one.

 

[omegablackmage]

Pokemon Trainer: (65/35)

General Matchup:

• Charizard: Excellent range and strength. However these attributes usually come at the cost of speed, whereas his fast moves usually lack these. Poor mobility can also hurt charizard in this matchup.
  Ivysaur: A good keep away game and decent strength, although he'll probably have a hard time landing a kill. Poor recovery and movement detriment ivysaur the most.
  Squirtle: Very fast, in both movement speed and attack speed. While his aerials lack the range needed to get in on gw, he can bait and run for some time to land attacks. Lacks a bit in ko potential.
• Charizard: Rock smash is the move to watch out for here, its very strong, and the rock bits can move through your disjointed attacks, even the turtle. Fsmash, upsmash, bair, and up b (super armor) have pretty decent range too look out for.
  Ivysaur: Bair, jab, dtilt, up b, and neutral b all have range that can cut through your attacks.
  Squirtle: Upsmash is probably his longest range attack that could possibly break through any of your attacks, not too much to look out for here.
• Charizard: Theres a pretty good amount of kill potential here w/ charizard. All of his smashes, up b, ftilt, fair, and rock smash all have great kill potential, gw should be most worried when facing charizard at high percents.
  Ivysaur: Main kill moves are up smash, forward smash, up air, dash attack, fair, and even up b are good for killing although some are a bit situational.
  Squirtle: Only really good kill moves are upsmash and dthrow, however the fair, when fresh can land a surprise kill as well.
• Charizard: Edgeguarding would have to consist of rock smashes offstage possibly, but will have to stay on the stage for the most part.
  Ivysaur: There really isn't anything that would be worth it for ivysaur to go offstage, pestering you with razor leafs is probably the best option.
  Squirtle: Can chase off the stage, but none of his aerials can really directly combat gw's recovery options. All three of these characters will probably have to settle for an edgehog to a ledgehopped aerial.
• Charizard: Waste his jumps in any way possible, usually bacon/fairs work well enough here. Don't underestimate his glide/up b and an edgehog should be feasible.
  Ivysaur: This is usual for ivysaur to deal with, but fairs to hogs really do ruin him. Watch out for the razor leaf to drop you from the ledge.
  Squirtle: Harder to edgeguard given the better aerial speed, but the same principles apply to squirtle that do to charizard.
• Charizard: Not really that heavy of a combo character, more of a long range swatter to rack damage up and go for the kill. Rock smash, fire breath, tilts, etc are good for this.
  Ivysaur: Most combos try to set you up for a bullet seed, nair autocancels into it well. Fortunately, gw is light and can di out pretty quickly. Tilts, up b's, etc all can be used in combos.
  Squirtle: A very heavily combo based character, its easier for me to come up with attacks that don't combo, mainly being his forward/dsmash, and his water gun probably. Jabs are 1 frame to execute, and link many combos together. Ftilt, up tilt, up air are extremely dangerous combo moves.
• Charizard: Is heavy, thus can buffer out of the dthrow/dsmash combo, however, his buffer roll is pretty short so tech chasing is possible. Up throws work too, given he doesn't have that many options to return down, also a large frame allows for very damaging nair combos.
  Ivysaur: Also heavy, AND boasts long roll lengths, probably want to up throw most of the time here. Decent sized frame, and poor up air escaping ability will likely get him into a lot of trouble with nair/upair spamming.
  Squirtle: Good roll lengths, but can be hit by the dsmash, so certainly use the dthrow occasionally when they won't expect it. Good aerial speed will probably make it difficult to chase him in the air, but its doable.

General Strategies:

• Charizard is about boasting your range at the right times, and avoiding his. Rock smash can be tricky to work around if used right, as can the fire breath. Bucketing is an option, however its a really weak bucket, and might get you into more trouble than its worth. Watch out for his good strength as well, which can ko you well under 100 if you aren't careful. Overall i would say he certainly has the tools to do decently against gw, likely a 6/4 gw matchup.
• Ivysaur on paper, has the means to shut gw down, but would require near perfect zoning and spacing, which with poor movement speed can be tricky. Razorleaf can't be bucketed, and can certainly force you to move around it, and the bair out reaches all of your attacks. Given those advantages, he doesn't do well when under excessive pressure, and of course can die very early from gimps off stage, which gw does well. Since his spacing attacks are slow, and gw's air speed is high, its difficult for him to zone gw. This is likely a 7/3 or 65/35 for gw.
• Squirtle on paper probably does really bad on paper, given he has nothing to outreach gw and is incredibly light. His ko moves, upsmash is a bit telegraphed/not amazingly strong, and the dthrow, while quick does go right for the corner, making it easier to bucket brake. It would probably take squirtle quite some time to kill gw, while gw can kill him likely under 100 every stock. However, squirtle is quite fast and certainly capable of maneuvering around gw's attacks to punish. He also might be able to induce hitlag on your turtle with the water gun as well. Given his poor range and weight, its probably a 7/3 or 65/35 as well.
• Overall these characters have the means to do decently against gw, but suffer a lot from the basic mechanics they were programmed with, ie the stamina. Against squirtle, if you play keep away you can take away his kill potential, probably forcing a switch to charizard for the kill. Charizard is easily combo'd and while strong, might have a hard time landing kills. Ivysaur probably does the worst vs gw and will probably want to be avoided. Given that it is possible to play very patient with these characters, they will suffer a lot from stamina problems. Work with this, and their generally poor recoveries to ensure a win.

Stages:

• Anything that makes it hard to recover, FO, RC, etc work well. Neutrals probably work well against the pkmn as well.
• Avoid stages with easy recovering, like norfair, japes, brinstar etc.

 

[Levitas]

Lucas is solidly beaten by game and watch. It's something like a 7:3 (maybe worse).

You're either our worst or second to worst matchup, depending on who you're asking.

PK fire has too much lag for us to space a pk fire against you and punish a bucket.

you can gimp us sometimes. Instead of going out to edgeguard with a bucket (vs PKT), you should always get above us with a bair. we'll either zap jump or DJ into it like 70% of the time at first, and you're also out there for bucketing should we choose to PKT after avoiding the bair.

Lucas's tether is really quick though, so you're not gonna get us as much as you might think.

we KO each other at the same percents, due to you being light and having powerful smashes, like normal.

You camp in our face with bair and nair and it always beats our approaches. That coupled with our affinity for not being able to camp you means that we're at the disadvantage.

 

[K 2]

Lucas as a really good nair, which eats at your shield. His nair can be combo'd into many other moves, since it autocancels. If G&W just spaces a bair though, Lucas should never be in range for that move.

Does Lucas have the dtilt -> bat combo, or is that Ness?

Beware of Lucas's bair and dair spikes. G&W's up b can usually plow through it though.

Bucket >.<

Lucas's up b goes freakin far. If you edgehog him as he tries to sweetspot the ledge though, he will bounce off the ledge and die. =P

Lucas has huge range on his usmash, so don't dair into it, since it will usually kill you if the hitbox comes out fast enough.

 

[Levitas]

Lucas has a couple death combos, most notably the Dair (knockdown) > dtilt lock > fsmash.

Lucas's nair is great, but you guys should be pretending lucas doesn't have any moves not named PK fire, and since it's bad against you, w/e.

I have yet to spike a G&W.

Every board that's discussed lucas (to my knowledge) has brought up usmash. Almost every lucas discussion on other characters has gone without mentioning it.

Lucas KOs w/fsmash and sometimes dsmash if we're punishing a roll/spotdodge, or you decide to jump into it for some reason.

Our jab's fast, but it doesn't matter. Pretend we're sonic and just attack and you'll win.

 

[Neb]

I'm pretty sure its Lucas who has the dtilt > bat follow-up, but I think the opponent has to trip in order for it to be guaranteed. Also, G&W shouldn't really endure too much shield pressure, he can just fall back on his upb, and bail out.

 

[The Milk Monster]

I'm pretty sure its Lucas who has the dtilt > bat follow-up, but I think the opponent has to trip in order for it to be guaranteed. Also, G&W shouldn't really endure too much shield pressure, he can just fall back on his upb, and bail out.

Yeah Lucas has dtilt to bat, Ness has like dtilt to grabs and such.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucas only has PK Fire camping and some disjointed range, which G&W can shut down pretty solidly due to having more range and punishing energy projectile camping with the Bucket. Not helping is the fact Lucas has rather subpar recovery that can be easily intercepted (plus LOL at Bucket gimping Lucas's recovery).

So yeah, besides just being a plain better character in general with better recovery, edgeguarding, damage dealing and KO options, G&W shuts down the two things Lucas focuses on (his range and camping). At least 7/3 G&W.

 

[Irsic]

Aside from basically beating us in every camping type of aspect, Lucas has fast tilts and jabs which can stop your smashes.

Turtle basically beats every single approach, and it occasionally even beats PK Fire, which is really sad. Point blank bucket gimping, though a good Lucas won't ever actually attempt this vs. G&W.

usmash is too situational to be discussed, though keyhappy G&W will eventually eat one as the key is pretty predictable. I wouldn't attempt pillaring against Lucas.

Be careful of getting grabbed by Lucas as our tether grab is perfect range for grabbing you, and we have a powerful throw that kills.

Lately I've been finding that G&W isn't as hard as previously claimed, but he indeed still is extremely difficult, only giving Lucas at possible best, 65-35, but it's probably more along the lines of 70-30.

Also, ban brinstar against Lucas. I don't think I've ever lost to G&W here. He's just to easy to KO here, and Lucas really excels on brinstar.

 

[Levitas]

Lucas has exactly two things on G&W. A bit more weight and a longer range on his recovery.

And that's all.

 

[Neb]

If Ness is 7/3, should Lucas be 75/25, or 7/3?

 

[DMG]

Ness is more like 65:35 I think, Lucas being 7:3.

 

[UTDZac]

I think our match vs. ness is 60:40, but mostly because he's gimpable and has somewhat short range on us.

There's a really strong ness player that lives in dallas. I run into him in tournaments and he gets me down to one stock everytime. I know it sounds silly, but ness can be an annoying matchup. He grabs a lot (something Lucas doesn't have).

Lucas on the other hand is much much easier.

 

[_clinton]

Ness has Dtilt to bat as well...its just that the frames have to be pretty much perfect...

I wonder...does G&W's Bair out do PKT2?

 

[Squirrely]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96R5cYklyNw

The key is just poking him off the edge and gimping.

 

[UTDZac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96R5cYklyNw

The key is just poking him off the edge and gimping.

This video doesn't accurately represent a strong Lucas player. We have one in Dallas and rarely am I able to gimp him that easily. The Lucas in this video just didn't know what he was doing. He would UpB right next to G&W just asking to be gimped.

Sorry but the matchup is not as easy as this.

 

[_clinton]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96R5cYklyNw

The key is just poking him off the edge and gimping.

I hope I'm not the only one who sees the flaw in using this video...

*****...1 minute off from being the 1st one to comment on it...

 

[Levitas]

LOL wifi friendly with an unnamed opponent as evidence for anything.

 

[omegablackmage]

does lucas have options to edgeguard gw? maybe the pk thunder?
where does lucas outprioritize/outrange gw?
best ko moves? (i assume bat, dsmash, maybe up air/bair?)
usable lucas combos on gw?
other good stages other than brinstar? worst lucas stage against gw, rc?

 

[Irsic]

RC is not a bad Lucas stage by any means. Don't expect us to just fail hardcore there. In fact RC is really easy to dair brickwall for Lucas there. Everytime I have a G&W player take me to RC...they normally lose, and obviously good players won't fall for the dtilt on the wall.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

does lucas have options to edgeguard gw? maybe the pk thunder?
where does lucas outprioritize/outrange gw?
best ko moves? (i assume bat, dsmash, maybe up air/bair?)
usable lucas combos on gw?
other good stages other than brinstar? worst lucas stage against gw, rc?

Edgeguarding: We do have PK Thunder and PK Freeze, but you guys can just bucket it. I'm aware there's ending lag whenever you catch something in it, but I honestly can't see Game & Watch dying because of it.

Priority: You beat us, full stop. (EDIT: Except maybe our dair? IDK)

KO Moves: Fsmash (which is a stick, btw <_<) is obvious, dsmash has an absurdly long hitbox that beats spotdodges and rolls, and we have two spikes in bair and dair. Dair's pretty weak unless you're already at KO percents though. Obligatory usmash mention, but note that like Ness's PKT2, it's a mindgame more than anything. Unless you get really predictable with your key, anyway.

Combos: Dthrow -> utilt is guaranteed until around 20%ish iirc. Nair and uair can be substituted for mixups, but aren't guaranteed. Dair -> dtilt -> fsmash becomes avaliable as soon as you start bouncing on the ground from the final dair hit (typically around 80%ish, although this varies by character). Of course, the difficulty lies in getting past your wall of priority to land these on Game & Watch in the first place.

Stages: Lucas loves Brinstar and Norfair. I'm assuming RC is Rainbow Cruise? Haven't actually been there in a while, but I've never heard it called a bad Lucas stage. We dislike Yoshi's Island (Brawl) for the uneven ground and the Support Ghost that likes to eat PK Thunder and Lylat Cruise for the tilting and platforms that tend to get in the way. Normally Lucas avoids Final Destination, but I can see it having merit against Game & Watch since he enjoys platforms last I checked. A stage I'm not sure on is Luigi's Mansion. Normally I like to go there because it limits mobility, but that's something Lucas wants a lot of in this matchup. How does Game & Watch fare there?

</walloftext>

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I would say 7:3 in G&W's advantage, but it may have to be 75:25, just because Ness has the 7:3 ratio and definitely puts up a better fight versus G&W than Lucas does.

If you ever have trouble with Lucas, remember that many of his moves are easy to DI out of with practice, and try to capitalize on this. Things like his PKT2 shouldnt be hitting you with all of it's hits.

Iunno, the only good Lucas player I have played decided to main Jigglypuff

 

[Irsic]

So....you...basically just admitted to have never playing a good Lucas player. >_>

 

[Cyan_]

I've played only 1 good Lucas, but it was online. He's considered the best online Lucas, though.

I got caught off-guard by his dair to fsmash, so watch out for that. Fsmash is fast and strong.

 

[lil cj]

I've played only 1 good Lucas, but it was online. He's considered the best online Lucas, though.

I got caught off-guard by his dair to fsmash, so watch out for that. Fsmash is fast and strong.

Best online Lucas huh...
Are you talking about Mekos from AiB?



Edit:
G&W....definitely Lucas' worst match up(even worst than Marth) and a part of the Deadly 4
I thought this match up was 2 0-80in G&W's favor...but after seeing that G&W vs Ness is 30-70 G&W
I think its 25-75 G&W...b/c Ness isnt that much better than Lucas...the only thing Lucas has on G&W is we can KO him very easily...G&W is also a good secondary for a Lucas main

 

[K 2]

When does Lucas's bthrow kill G&W? I know Ness has the strongest bthrow, with Lucas close behind. I'm not sure if its a viable kill move in this matchup though.