Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[cutter]

Charizard definately does not have the advantage on GW. He is outranged by Bair and unlike DK he does not have a move to plow through it like DK's neutral B. Rock Smash is definately great; I cannot discredit the move because of what it does, but it has its exploitable weaknesses as well. I.e, the move is unsafe on block and it has some startup time.

GW being juggled by Zard? LOL, I'm pretty sure you mean the opposite. Zard's poor aerial mobility and floatiness means he's a prime target for Uair juggling from GW. GW can force Zard's hand into airdodging to break out of the Uairs which sets him up for an aerial of GW's choosing. Nair is really bad news for Zard as well because it's another huge disjointed hitbox.

Zard does also have sick grab range, but he does not have a real powerful throw like DDD... he can 16% Bthrow GW, chaingrab numerous mulitiple characters, or toss someone off the stage for edgeguarding with an Fthrow.

more to come later.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

i dont if this is true... but... does that freaking turtle break flamethower's fire??? OMG
zard can kill really early to g&w.. but g&w is pretty good juggling stuff above him... one of charizards blind spots.. its g&w's advantage...

 

[Steeler]

Charizard definately does not have the advantage on GW. He is outranged by Bair and unlike DK he does not have a move to plow through it like DK's neutral B. Rock Smash is definately great; I cannot discredit the move because of what it does, but it has its exploitable weaknesses as well. I.e, the move is unsafe on block and it has some startup time.

yup, true. rock smash can be used a few frames before charizard is hit with bair to trade hits with gw. it has startup time but if a hitbox comes in contact with the rock before charizard headbutts it (and it comes out in less than 5 frames), then the shards will likely hit you.

GW being juggled by Zard? LOL, I'm pretty sure you mean the opposite. Zard's poor aerial mobility and floatiness means he's a prime target for Uair juggling from GW. GW can force Zard's hand into airdodging to break out of the Uairs which sets him up for an aerial of GW's choosing. Nair is really bad news for Zard as well because it's another huge disjointed hitbox.

charizard can't juggle gw except for maybe a utilt or two into uair at like 0%, his up b is too good (squirtle can juggle though). zard isn't all that floaty or slow in the air by the way. nair is quite annoying but rock smash countering can work there. charizard up B has super armor but it's risky. on the ground, zard can grab you if your spacing isn't optimal. or use 5 frame usmash out of shield if you tried to go through the shield and behind charizard. or rock smash.

Zard does also have sick grab range, but he does not have a real powerful throw like DDD... he can 16% Bthrow GW, chaingrab numerous mulitiple characters, or toss someone off the stage for edgeguarding with an Fthrow.

the last two are quite irrelevant because he can't chaingrab GW (not even tech chase if GW up B's, i think) and every character can toss someone off the edge...zard's damaging throws do 10-11%, which is average. his throws also have decent KO potential.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

I did mean Char will get juggled by GW,I kinda switch the perspective.Char's throws is supposed to be setups for things like Fair.Steeler already explained about Bair VS Rock smash,It depends.Maybe it should be 55:45 for Char.but does Fsmash beat Bair?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Charizard doesn't beat G&W. At all.

Charizard can't safely deal damage to G&W if the G&W knows good spacing. Rock Smash may beat out some of G&W's stuff but it's not safe at all. Up-B out of shield might be nice, but isn't reliable or safe either. He can't escape G&W's juggling very well, and like the other two, he is edgeguarded very easily by G&W.

Charizard vs G&W is at least 65/35 G&W easily. A smart G&W player can easily weave around anything Charizard does. G&W punishes Charizard much harder and more safely and has better KO moves such as fullhop F-air, U-smash, and D-air edgeguard which Charizard doesn't really have good answers to.

Vs Ivysaur, Ivysaur may have nice defensive options, but she can't do jack to G&W if he B-airs behind her. Once she is offstage, it doesn't take much to gimp her. A weak hit of the F-air is enough to stop her recovery and then edgehog. At least 6/4 G&W here.

Squirtle is universally agreed to be a bad matchup for Squirtle, so I will not go in depth on this one.

The Pokemon Trainer moreover can't answer G&W's edgecamping, and this is very effective for forcing fatigue switches.

65/35 G&W overall.

 

[_clinton]

Vs Ivysaur, Ivysaur may have nice defensive options, but she can't do jack to G&W if he B-airs behind her.

What about just her Bair to counter the Bair? I'm almost certain the range on it is a bit more then G&W's

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ivy's B-air unlike G&W's doesn't have the same ridiculous safe on shields property. Getting inside it isn't particularly hard.

 

[_clinton]

Ivy's Bair is more of a "counter for another move" though while backing away because of how much range it has...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, that's nice and all. Won't stop me from deciding to approach with shield. =/

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

You forget that fly has Super armor.Charzard can sheild grab if you play offensive Also charizard has a nasty Dtilt..Maybe it is GW's favor.

 

[_clinton]

Yeah, that's nice and all. Won't stop me from deciding to approach with shield. =/

Wasn't your post "Vs Ivysaur, Ivysaur may have nice defensive options, but she can't do jack to G&W if he B-airs behind her..."

 

[cutter]

Regarding Ivy's Bair, Ivy can also outrange Marth with it, but she still loses out solidly to Marth.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wasn't your post "Vs Ivysaur, Ivysaur may have nice defensive options, but she can't do jack to G&W if he B-airs behind her..."

It's too slow to punish G&W out of shield due G&W's B-air having virtually no landing lag. G&W on the other hand does well punishing her B-air out of shield with his own.

Basically, if Ivysaur is trying to B-air camp, all G&W has to do is shield, and wait until he's close enough to punish out of shield. Once G&W actually gets his B-air on Ivysaur's shield, if she was B-air camping, she can't punish G&W back.

You forget that fly has Super armor.Charzard can sheild grab if you play offensive Also charizard has a nasty Dtilt..Maybe it is GW's favor.

Charizard on the other hand is easily shield poked. His methods of dealing damage are not nearly as safe as G&W's, and when he gets punished by G&W, G&W punishes him much more severely with juggles and edgeguarding. Charizard's KO moves are also unsafe on block, unlike G&W's which are all safe on block.

Basically, Charizard can be more consistently punished for whiffing something. G&W is better at pressuring when being camped and has the advantage by far when it comes to scoring the KO. He just does overall better blow for blow in pretty much every situation.

G&W is just plain better than the PT at everything in general. The PT's few options that can punish G&W's stuff may be cool and all, but they don't amount to enough, especially when G&W has the ability to not get hit at all by simply edgecamping and waiting for fatigue to set in.

Blow for blow, the PT is usually weaker than G&W, and doesn't follow up nearly as well as G&W does, and G&W has the advantage in terms of KO moves and edgeguarding by a great margin.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Charizrd can KO you with DTILT,Dthrow,and Ftilt.They are safe kill moves.He does not have to use his Smashes or Rock Smash.Dtilt comes out Fast,Ftilt has range and speed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

D-tilt and F-tilt aren't safe. There is enough time to punish them out of shield. Not just that, G&W can wait and space B-air to punish.

D-throw doesn't KO for a really long time.

G&W's Up-smash however there is literally ZERO window to punish it out of shield.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

I'm pretty sure Dtilt has almost no ending lag and Char can sheild after.GW does not have anything outranging his ftilt.You would have to basically have to Completely outpredict them,which the same can happen to you.

D throw can Ko Gw off the edge of FD at around 90%

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W can jump out of shield and do an aerial to punish.

It's going to take a lot longer than that to KO with a throw when you factor in Bucket Braking. If G&W is near the ledge, you shouldn't be grabbing him. He should be edgecamping.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Did you even read my post?Dtilt is safe that you can use the sheild after.Ftilt can push back when sheilded which gives enough time for a sheild(unless a perfect sheild).Dthrow kills him too fast for bucket braking.

 

[DMG]

Dthrow kills him too fast for bucket braking.

False information.

U can bucket brake any moderate-strong knockback attack/throw as long as you have the right amount of room and the damage meter in a certain range.

Dthrow near the edge, when DI'd well, doesn't kill until past 143% or so. Dthrow from the middle kills around 170%. I just tested this out myself. And by the edge, I mean I literally had Charizard dash grab him near the edge as far as he could go and have G&W dangle well over the edge.

Edit: Actually I did it some more and lived right up to 160% before I died from the edge.

 

[_clinton]

Basically, if Ivysaur is trying to B-air camp, all G&W has to do is shield, and wait until he's close enough to punish out of shield. Once G&W actually gets his B-air on Ivysaur's shield, if she was B-air camping, she can't punish G&W back.

Trying to camp with a move like Bair isn't recommended though...I mean the move just isn't built for that (like I said already)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Did you even read my post?Dtilt is safe that you can use the sheild after.Ftilt can push back when sheilded which gives enough time for a sheild(unless a perfect sheild).Dthrow kills him too fast for bucket braking.

Get frame data for your attacks. If the out of shield advantage is something like -20, which is similar to something like Marth or DK's F-tilt, it can be punished out of shield easily.

 

[cutter]

You forget that fly has Super armor.

Cool. GW's Up B has multiple invincibility frames and a vortex hitbox.

I'm pretty sure Dtilt has almost no ending lag and Char can sheild after.GW does not have anything outranging his ftilt.You would have to basically have to Completely outpredict them,which the same can happen to you.

Umm... Bair. That is all.

D throw can Ko Gw off the edge of FD at around 90%

Now I know for sure you're just pulling random stuff out of your *** to artifically enhance your arguments. Zard's Dthrow does not even come close to killing GW at 90% at the edge. Ever heard of DI? Bucket Braking? The fact that the throw is slow to execute gives GW more than enough time to input a DI command, Nair, and then Down B.

Making false claims is a great way to make yourself quickly lose your credibility and reputation here.

Did you even read my post?Dtilt is safe that you can use the sheild after.Ftilt can push back when sheilded which gives enough time for a sheild(unless a perfect sheild).

Get some ****ing frame data before making erroneous claims like you continue to do. You continue to make yourself look stupid by making claims without evidence to support you.

Dthrow kills him too fast for bucket braking.

LMFAO!

There is no point in taking you seriously anymore. You have dug your own grave.

What an idiotic statement.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

D tilt has 8 frames
Bair has 10 frames.

I am sorry for sounding like a noob.I did test out the Dthrow on him but forget to factor in DI.Again I am sorry for forgetting to put proof,But I feel too many people underestimate characters like PT and Peach.I mained both PT and GW and merely was going on what I know,Which was not smart.

Although I disagree With Ivy saurs easy to gimp.A smart Ivy player will razor you off the ledge,and if not careful,can sweetspot you and Ivycide.Other than that,yeah she is easy to edgehog.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't care how fast the D-tilt comes out. I want to know the frame advantage. I seriously doubt Charizard has an amazing enough frame advantage on his D-tilt to legitimately frame trap, and if you're smart, you could probably just jump out of shield and B-air once his D-tilt hits you.

The PT sucks. Anyone can outcamp the PT. Peach is actually decent.

I don't care that Ivysaur can razor leaf people who sit on the ledge like an idiot. I can hit you away during that time, and then grab the ledge again, and you won't make it back. The only time Ivysaur should recover against a smart opponent is if she wasn't knocked away far.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

LOL the time you leave the edge is the time I air dodge and Up-B quick.

If you think PT sucks,you obviously have not played a smart one like Typh or Steeler.

 

[cutter]

The speed of an attack won't matter too much if it has a horrible frame advantage. Marth's Dsmash for example hits on frame 6 but if the move gets blocked Marth is screwed beyond belief because the move is unsafe on block; even if it's tippered.

GW is a very good edgeguarder. While he can't edgeguard as ridiculously amazing as Meta Knight, GW has the ability to easily go far off stage thanks to his Up B allowing him to get back very, very easily. GW also has the tools to gimp characters with poor recoveries. His Fair is excellent; a long lengthy disjointed hitbox that lingers for a long time. The power hit can send Ivysaur off the stage far enough to keep her from getting within her sweetspot range for Up B. The sex kick part of Fair is also excellent at gimping; it halts the momentum of the opponent and the hitstun + gravity puts someone with a bad recovery in a disadvantageous position.

GW can also gimp with slowfall Dair which is just amazing against tether recoveries. Because you do not get invincbility until you fully retract into the ledge, you are still vulerable to attacks even if you manage to tether the stage. Ivysaur will go right into a Dair and either get A) stagespiked or B) sent at an angle that sends her far away from the edge resetting the edgeguarding process. OR, G&W can also up B to blast you away from the stage and then float back to grab the edge for an easy edgehog.

Airdodge? It helps, but that's not the end all solution to Ivysaur's edgeguarding problems. Airdodging is predictable and it leaves you vulnerable after you do it. If your opponent successfully calls your airdodge, they get a free attack.

I haven't even gotten into Planking, which is IMO what really makes this so problematic for PT. What are ANY of the three pokemon supposed to do against a ledgecamping GW? GW is one of the best ledgecampers in the game, and he can suppliment this strategy with Nair, Uair, Fair off the ledge, and Up Bing repeatedly into the ledge. This is an amazing strategy that is a nightmare for any of the 3 pokemon. This will result in you getting fatigued, and you're stuck in between a rock and a hard place. You can play with a handicapped character with weak power or you switch out and you eat a Usmash. Your choice.

PT does suck. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're living in a fantasy world. There is statisical evidence supporting this BTW. It is not just opinion.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Don't just look at the current rankings, but look at all of them. You will see that PT has consistently been in the slums of D and E rankings. Now look at the tier list. PT is in the F tier. I think the empyrical data backs this up quite nicely.

You need to understand that there are characters that are just not good in this game. PT is one of them. It does not matter if there are a select few that are good with that character; that does not automatically make that character good. Outliers have almost always existed for these situations.

This game is not balanced.

Get over it.

 

[Steeler]

who cares about how good PT is? this is about the matchup. :\

ssj5 thanks for the compliment but i'm not on typh's level. also you should probably keep from making declarative statements if you haven't seen a reliable source post data and/or done the research yourself.

 

[ColinJF]

The fact that the throw is slow to execute gives GW more than enough time to input a DI command, Nair, and then Down B.

Different moves don't kill at different rates if they are launching with the same force. Your DI is read on the last frame of hitlag, so you have to still be holding it at that point, which means the amount of time you have to input your neutral air and Oil Panic is a function only of the force with which you are launched, and has nothing to do with the animation of the move or anything else.

PT does suck. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're living in a fantasy world. There is statisical evidence supporting this BTW. It is not just opinion.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954

Don't just look at the current rankings, but look at all of them. You will see that PT has consistently been in the slums of D and E rankings. Now look at the tier list. PT is in the F tier. I think the empyrical data backs this up quite nicely

Tournament results are not "statistical evidence" of character quality. They are evidence of which characters have been placing in tournaments and nothing more. You can claim that if a character is good it would be placing well in tournaments, but that is not a statistical claim, so your attempt to paint it as one is silly. It could be the case that Pokemon Trainer is just not an attractive character to good players for whatever reason. I'm not saying this is the case, merely that it could be, and you cannot rule it out using statistics.

You also can't cite the SBR tier list as evidence that a character is bad, as it's just an appeal to authority.

 

[omegablackmage]

good stages for pkmn trainer?

is it agreed that charizard does the best w/ rock smash, good range, good grab game?
then ivysaur with decent range on some attacks, bit of a zoning game, and good strength,
and squirtle does the worst due to little range and only a few kill moves?

 

[ColinJF]

Mr. Game & Watch would probably like to counterpick something without ledges which is problematic to both Squirtle and especially Ivysaur. On the other hand, since Mr. Game & Watch is extremely proficient at edge guarding Pokemon Trainer, they would probably benefit from a stage where that is less of a concern, like say Delfino. Of course the stages aren't really going to affect this match up significantly.

 

[Steeler]

i think squirtle does better than ivysaur, but that's just me.

rainbow cruise is a good cp.

 

[ColinJF]

I'd agree with Steeler. Squirtle may have "limited range" but his horizontal aerial mobility allows him to weave in and retreat, and his aerials are less committed than, say, the turtle. He's also exceptional at landing grabs and has a kill throw, so his kill move problem is not quite as pronounced as you might think.

 

[omegablackmage]

i didn't say that he had a kill problem, just that he only has a few kill moves.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Charizard is such turtle bait being huge and all (and I don't think his shield is very good), and once you get him in the air, there's really not much he can do. I think it's the easiest of the Pokemon to fight. Rock Smash is pretty good, but it's fairly predictable since it's so much better than the rest of its mostly mediocre moveset.

Squirtle is a big threat; it's just really, really fast. His sliding action on the ground combined with its select really good ground moves (usmash, frame 1 jab1, utilt) let it counter your spacing efforts with its all around high speed, and in the air you are generally better but its mobility is in a class above Mr. Game & Watch's so it can get down pretty easily. Its aerials are actually pretty good even if not as good as yours either so it can do aerial follow ups pretty successfully. Overall Mr. Game & Watch still beats Squirtle like the others, but I think in the long run Squirtle is the biggest threat on the team.

Ivysaur is hard for me to judge; I don't think Steeler (the PT I have experience against) really does him justice. He's kinda like a worse Olimar as far as I can tell; you can usually exploit him as his team's weak point since one mistake on his part leads to him losing a stock, but I can imagine someone actually good at staying on the stage and avoiding gimps showing us all that Ivysaur has a great camping game the same way the Olimar people did. I don't think we can take a big win against it for granted.

The problem with the Pokemon Trainer in terms of matchup analysis is that against real PT players you just kinda camp when their personal strong Pokemon are out and get aggressive against their weak Pokemon, and unless they manage to figure out how to play Ivysaur like Olimar and not get gimped very often, it will probably end up being a source of free stocks. I think it kinda averages out to 60-40 Mr. Game & Watch's favor; it's a pretty clear advantage but not a blowout or anything.

As per stages, Norfair seems like it should work well against Squirtle and Charizard, but it has the downside of making life easier on Ivysaur in terms of recovery. Rainbow Cruise is probably the textbook best pick here, but I always feel uneasy about going for Rainbow Cruise. Of course, if your region happens to give you Port Town Aero Dive or Skyworld, pick those for sure. Mr. Game & Watch can take advantage of most stage features well while not really getting screwed by anything, and each Pokemon likes different features so it's probably true that it doesn't really matter all that much.

 

[typh]

alright i have nothing to contribute except this: whoever said charizard's dthrow kills is ****ing ********

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Yeah I will try to not give PT's a bad name next time.GW does have the advantage,but not to the point of Hopelessness.


Also one points I like to disagree on,You say hes bad because hes F tier.If memory serves,Ike was higher than he was now And Olimar/Lucario were much lower.The current tier list is not the final.It most likely will recieve changes overtime.

 

[_Phloat_]

The relation you have is backwards. He would be in F-tier because he is bad, not bad because he is in F-tier.

 

[Zephramrill]

Yeah... This matchup is terrible for PT... =( Can GaW climb into one of the pokeballs so we can use him for a bit?

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

The relation you have is backwards. He would be in F-tier because he is bad, not bad because he is in F-tier.

Tiers can change,and they almost always do.I just said people thought Lucario and Olimar were worthless and look what happened.although PT is probaly Not great, he is not as bad as people say.

Back to the match up.GW ***** all 3,but does not totally destroy Squirtle.

Without down throw Squirtle would be Destroyed.Make sure as GW to not leave room for punishment as the Turtle will aerial you.Up smash will put some serious dent to an exepected aerial to Squirtle.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Dont get grabbed, then!
There, Down Throw is out of the equation, Squirtle gets destroyed :]
Honestly, I don't think PT does well at all in this matchup.