Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[unknown522]

am I gonna have to post my set vs HMW again?

Edit: Nah, I'm not gonna look for it. Too lazy.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wait, I'm confused, are you refuting something I said?

 

[unknown522]

no, it's a separate post

edit: go to sleep

 

[KirbyKaze]

woah woah woah.

Doc combos?

maybe in West Coast

I was talking about this post.

Are you telling me Doc can't chain grab or do throw combos to Fox...?

edit:

Are you saying that shine > up smash, grab, dash attack, or d-tilt can't work...?

I'm so confused...

 

[unknown522]

no, cuz people in the thread were saying stuff about doc having good combos on fox. But his combos suck

 

[Winston]

I kind of want to know more on this as well. I was playing Boss yesterday with both Spacies and it was intense. All I could pick up on my mistakes were me not sweetspotting recoveries, and getting baited by pills too often.

You're in MD/VA atm? or is Boss oos for some reason

It doesn't really matter what you do vs Doc as long as you don't mess up (unless they're really good, like Shroomed or something).

But, if you want to be gay...

Up tilt him out of aerial approaches; bair him out of everything; drillshine to d-tilt, up smash, dash attack, or grab; beat all of his aerials when he's coming down from up throw with up tilt (except dair; shine oos or something on that).

Camp him so you're never near the edge during engagements. He doesn't really have a good dash dance or anything. Just a surprisingly aggravating crouch cancel, some big throw combos, and some really dangerous gimps. Play to avoid those.

If he lands onstage with Up+B lag at low percent, don't be stupid and try to do a hero gimp. Just up air combo him for like 40%+ and stalk his landing with something (maybe dash attack) and then work from there. Keep it simple. Don't be fancy. Doc sucks.

I think utilt works fine vs. dair. It'll usually trade, but since dair is a multihit move that's fairly profitable. Bairing it from the side seems to work well too

no, cuz people in the thread were saying stuff about doc having good combos on fox. But his combos suck

Yeah his combos are... way worse than Marth/Sheik/Fox/Falco/whatever's on Fox >__> he's somewhat harder to combo than those characters, but if you just play mad gay like KK described your punishment on him is fairly solid.

His uair nonsense usually shouldn't work because he doesn't have strong enough aerial to punish DI away. The main threatening thing is getting caught DIing away on uair -> dsmash and dying at like 60, but the height for that combo is fairly specific so if you look for that it shouldn't be too bad. So that leaves him with a CG to like mid 50 percent on FD (which is quite annoying, I admit) and partial cgs -> platform techchases on the other stages. Those aren't too bad I think if you use a good mix of missed tech/tech in place to combat waveland -> reaction techchase. That's about all the reliable damage building stuff he can do; the rest is all creativity/intimidation stuff, which is okay... but seriously most of the characters people play link guaranteed combos into 3/4 techchases into more guaranteed combos on Fox >__>.

Fox edgeguards Doc perfectly fine also, though Doc can gimp and he can't really without egregious mistakes from Doc. I think if you have good DI (i.e. get sent at 45 degrees from his dsmash) to preserve your options and are really good at using said options (the full repetoire of firefox angles, shinestalls, and especially shortens/platform edgecancels) then Fox actually wins the non-gimp edgeguarding game vs. Doc. That was kind of speculative, but at the very least it's not too skewed in Doc's favor imo.

So all in all I think the punishment is at least even, if not in Fox's favor. Doc just has swinger stuff because of his gimping/missed DI on dsmashes, and most people make a lot of mistakes

 

[omgwtfToph]

So I have a recovery question. When Marth jabs your side-B recovery for the stage and you get knocked slightly away without a doublejump, it seems possible to quickly airdodge back to the stage before you fall low enough such that you have to up-B. The only space animal player I really see do this, though, is Mango.

Is this airdodge reliable? I tried it in a tournament and just barely didn't reach the ledge, losing my stock. Is it, like, percentage dependent? Or is it the difference of whether or not Marth hits you with maximum spacing on his jab (a "tipper" jab might have you far enough from the stage such that you can't airdodge back, etc)? And if that's the case, is it worth trying the airdodge at all, or is it to difficult to confirm whether or not you'll be able to survive?

Then again, is there anything else worth trying when you get hit out of your side-B by Marth's jab?

 

[Divinokage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AXtNBuSTP0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkXw7ev-6sg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsbwdpt8zzA

Hey, so.. not sure how anyone is going to take this but.. here's some Fox of mine. I do want some critique and stuff. Figured it might be refreshing too and funny to see. =P

 

[~Tac~]

woah woah woah.

Doc combos?

maybe in West Coast

Anywhere a space animal is, a grab is a combo. :|

He has a lot of really annoying chain grabs. And guaranteed throw > d-smash / fair at KO percents.

I dunno. I guess that's not really "big" but it's still really annoying.

Bam.

You're in MD/VA atm? or is Boss oos for some reason

He was in NC for a tourney, and friendlies. Surprise appearance.

 

[unknown522]

Yeah his combos are... way worse than Marth/Sheik/Fox/Falco/whatever's on Fox >__> he's somewhat harder to combo than those characters, but if you just play mad gay like KK described your punishment on him is fairly solid.

His uair nonsense usually shouldn't work because he doesn't have strong enough aerial to punish DI away. The main threatening thing is getting caught DIing away on uair -> dsmash and dying at like 60, but the height for that combo is fairly specific so if you look for that it shouldn't be too bad. So that leaves him with a CG to like mid 50 percent on FD (which is quite annoying, I admit) and partial cgs -> platform techchases on the other stages. Those aren't too bad I think if you use a good mix of missed tech/tech in place to combat waveland -> reaction techchase. That's about all the reliable damage building stuff he can do; the rest is all creativity/intimidation stuff, which is okay... but seriously most of the characters people play link guaranteed combos into 3/4 techchases into more guaranteed combos on Fox >__>.

Fox edgeguards Doc perfectly fine also, though Doc can gimp and he can't really without egregious mistakes from Doc. I think if you have good DI (i.e. get sent at 45 degrees from his dsmash) to preserve your options and are really good at using said options (the full repetoire of firefox angles, shinestalls, and especially shortens/platform edgecancels) then Fox actually wins the non-gimp edgeguarding game vs. Doc. That was kind of speculative, but at the very least it's not too skewed in Doc's favor imo.

So all in all I think the punishment is at least even, if not in Fox's favor. Doc just has swinger stuff because of his gimping/missed DI on dsmashes, and most people make a lot of mistakes

yeah, dem errors. Still, we should be trying to avoid getting hit by this stuff.

So I have a recovery question. When Marth jabs your side-B recovery for the stage and you get knocked slightly away without a doublejump, it seems possible to quickly airdodge back to the stage before you fall low enough such that you have to up-B. The only space animal player I really see do this, though, is Mango.

Is this airdodge reliable? I tried it in a tournament and just barely didn't reach the ledge, losing my stock. Is it, like, percentage dependent? Or is it the difference of whether or not Marth hits you with maximum spacing on his jab (a "tipper" jab might have you far enough from the stage such that you can't airdodge back, etc)? And if that's the case, is it worth trying the airdodge at all, or is it to difficult to confirm whether or not you'll be able to survive?

Then again, is there anything else worth trying when you get hit out of your side-B by Marth's jab?

yeah, I do it sometimes but sadly he can wait then and grab you, or non-tipped f-smash. Since you have no jump, you're pretty much dead. Still there's nothing to lose on experimenting vs marth's edgeguarding (if they're good players). Oh yeah, they can double jab you if you DI inwards usually.

Still, other suggestions:

- side-b again after SDIing the jab
- sometimes you can grab the ledge after getting jabbed if you DI the jab well
- go lower and try some super-squeeze firefox stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AXtNBuSTP0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkXw7ev-6sg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsbwdpt8zzA

Hey, so.. not sure how anyone is going to take this but.. here's some Fox of mine. I do want some critique and stuff. Figured it might be refreshing too and funny to see. =P

lol, I watched it all.

Need more techskill. Those waveshines were pretty choppy.

If you're gonna take fox seriously, then you just need to practice with him and you should be fine.

Anywhere a space animal is, a grab is a combo. :|



Bam.

I was not talking about KK's post when I questioned doc's combos. Obviously he has those 2-steps, and CG, but there were at least 2 people who said that doc had good combos on fox, which is not true. Unless he's getting CG'd, doc should almost never get more than 3 hits in a combo, granted that you DI properly (or even not DI half the time).

 

[Winston]

- go lower and try some super-squeeze firefox stuff.

This option is really, really good in the current metagame if you're playing on FD, Dreamland, or FoD.

Almost every Marth player will use an option that leaves your survival under your control. (usually counter). For some reason it's bizarrely difficult on Yoshi's, though...

 

[unknown522]

the main downside to going lower though is that if they decide to take the ledge then let go and side-b you, then you're probably screwed.

But a lot of marths don't go for it.

 

[Divinokage]

Even more tech skill huh? I see. Well I'm trying my best to learn how to do it better.. this is basically only a few months old spacies. In the beginning, I couldn't do **** at all like could not even nair-shine-nair, that's how far i've got so far. Not too bad I guess.. =P It's pretty funny how you can sometimes just look at your opponent trying to recover, stand there and then shine lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Marth going offstage is so stupidly easy to do (as Marth) and it takes no skill, effort, or timing whatsoever.

Fortunately, almost every Marth in the universe is a complete tard and doesn't take advantage of easy gimp opportunities because they haven't left 2004. F-smash forever, baby. The mark of a good (read: bad) Marth.

 

[Divinokage]

Lol honestly, I don't think I'll ever play spacies in tournament against a Marth, I already have Falcon/Ganon for that. I was looking more like what I can do better in general. =P

 

[Diakonos]

Toph, I think the answer you're looking for is:

It depends how far you are from the edge when Marth jabs you. If he walks almost offstage to jab you, you'll be too far.

I imagine that the only time it will work is when they jabbed pretty late and you DI'd it pretty well.

Also, please don't forward+b against Marth with no DJ..

 

[leffen]

When you forward B at anytime you have no jump so yeah...

 

[Diakonos]

I'm not sure about that. I illusion to the stage sometimes just to get on there, with the knowledge that if I get on there and get hit off again, I still have a jump and may be in a better position.

 

[leffen]

Well then you are landing on the stage which is 100% unrelevant to the discussion (oh and you can even start sliding on the stage and still not get your jump back fyi).

jeez.

 

[Little England]

(oh and you can even start sliding on the stage and still not get your jump back fyi)..

O_O What the?? So you get your jump back after you stop sliding then? That's funky.

 

[~Tac~]

I was not talking about KK's post when I questioned doc's combos. Obviously he has those 2-steps, and CG, but there were at least 2 people who said that doc had good combos on fox, which is not true. Unless he's getting CG'd, doc should almost never get more than 3 hits in a combo, granted that you DI properly (or even not DI half the time).

Ah, I misunderstood. My apologies. Then I agree with that.

Also, @ the no jump when just sliding on stage: Is that true? I would like to know more on that o_o; Is there a certain animation/frame that has to pass for it to actually register you hit the ground?

 

[JPOBS]

how is it not common knowledge by now that side-Bing automatically removes your jump.

 

[leffen]

Yeah the "slide" (when you hit the ground before side B is over) still acts like you are in the air, at least for a while.

 

[Sinji]

It doesn't really matter what you do vs Doc as long as you don't mess up (unless they're really good, like Shroomed or something).

But, if you want to be gay...

Up tilt him out of aerial approaches; bair him out of everything; drillshine to d-tilt, up smash, dash attack, or grab; beat all of his aerials when he's coming down from up throw with up tilt (except dair; shine oos or something on that).

Camp him so you're never near the edge during engagements. He doesn't really have a good dash dance or anything. Just a surprisingly aggravating crouch cancel, some big throw combos, and some really dangerous gimps. Play to avoid those.

If he lands onstage with Up+B lag at low percent, don't be stupid and try to do a hero gimp. Just up air combo him for like 40%+ and stalk his landing with something (maybe dash attack) and then work from there. Keep it simple. Don't be fancy. Doc sucks.

Thanks for the advice. I feel confident about the match up now.

 

[Strong Badam]

how is it not common knowledge by now that side-Bing automatically removes your jump.

i didn't know this until like 2 days ago when I was playing and kept WTFing at losing my second jump, using Side-B specifically to save it for later.

 

[unknown522]

Ah, I misunderstood. My apologies. Then I agree with that.

yeah, np. KK makes good posts.

Also, @ the no jump when just sliding on stage: Is that true? I would like to know more on that o_o; Is there a certain animation/frame that has to pass for it to actually register you hit the ground?

not sure what you mean.

 

[ShroudedOne]

So, I need tips on handling Marth when we're both in neutral. That's my hardest part of the MU by far. I don't know how to approach him/handle his shenanigans/stay in a safe range. So, as many general tips/words of wisdom as you have, please.

I'd post videos, but honestly, I suck in them far too much. =P

 

[KirbyKaze]

Explaining ranges and how to play them is incredibly difficult through text.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Maybe a link to an example video?

 

[Winston]

First of all, have you seen Lucien's spacing tutorial?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw

With that out of the way... here's an attempt at applying it to the Fox vs. Marth matchup:

You both dash dance a lot. By default this is spaced to prepare you for regular approaches, i.e. approaches aimed to hit the forward part of your dash dance. The spacing is approximately Fox's shffl aerial range/Marth's dash attack range, as those are the farthest forward hitboxes that they can throw out immediately. This is the "normal" or "default" range.

If either fox or marth tries to approach with a shffl aerial like this they get DD grabbed; that's what this spacing is designed for. Let's call this level 0.

A basic counter to this is overshooting. Instead of aiming the approach at the near point of the dash dance, you aim it at the far point by running forward farther than normal before doing the attack. For Fox, other options besides shffling an aerial for overshooting include dash attack and dash canceled shine. For Marth, besides dash attack he can wd forward fsmash or dash canceled dtilt. The idea is similar for all these things though.

If you assume your opponent is just doing the default dash dance, you can afford to run forward more while they dash back. If they were indeed doing the default dash dance, they will get hit by your attack since they were spaced against your "default" approach. So this is level 1; it beats the basic implementation of level 0.

If this sounds risky, it's because it is. You are just running straight at them basically, and if they choose to do an attack while you attempt this, well, you get hit. Marth can pivot grab you out of his dash away, or just stand/run forward a little and grab. Fox can pretty much do the same - intercept them with an aerial or usmash. (He can also shield if the Marth is doing dash attack/fsmashes, but that won't cut it vs. dtilt.) This level 2 might seem a little brain damaged at first (stand there and grab? really?) but it counters level 1. M2K in particular is brilliant with this simple mixup as Marth. He is excellent at grabbing people who are just running towards him, expecting him to dashdance back.

Oh but - big surprise here - level 0 counters level 2. your "level 2" options are really short ranged and if you do them while your opponent is doing his default dash dance you'll whiff and he'll get to punish your lag.

So with just those 3 things you have a sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors game going on. That's the basis of dash dance neutral game.

Of course, it's not entirely that simple in practice because of all the movement options afforded to us by this wonderful game. Within the bound of your initial dash length, you can vary your dash dance however you want; you can move forward or back with it, and vary the rhythm, etc. You can also wavedash in place, which sounds pointless, but if executed correctly the lag is quite short and so the result is a really abrupt break in the rhythm that you can use to try to throw off your opponent. You can use these kinds of things to try and gain advantages on your opponent's dashdance without committing to running straight at them - if they are insistent on staying safe they will have to concede some ground to you. Retreating is pretty much always safe, but the size of the stage is finite, and if you are forced to the corner and then have a dashdance engagement, then a lot of your options are cut off and you are at a big disadvantage. This is the other key point - you don't have to necessarily outright hit them to gain advantage; improving your position by gaining more stage is also a goal you should work
towards.

So far I've pretty much treated Fox and Marth as having analogous options, but of course Marth is a little different from Fox in that he can attempt to use aerials in neutral to keep Fox out. About this, I'll just say that Fox is fast enough so that sh fairing/nairing doesn't wall Fox out. Basically, when Marth short hops he gives away his horizontal mobility temporarily, so you can get a bit closer. Then the game becomes about his variation in timing his aerials as well as controlling his horizontal spacing relative to you. For example, if Marth sh early fairs, Fox can shffl nair him during the lag. If he late fairs, you might be able to grab/nair him depending on the spacing, but even if he spaces it well enough to avoid this you can attempt to take advantage of it by gaining space on him during the lag and pressuring him positionally. There's a bunch of other stuff he can do (waveland on a platform, empty hop, empty hop waveland, etc. etc.) but you can figure that out with experience probably.

As for marth's nair... Marth's nair is pretty weird because he can autocancel it and it's active for almost the whole duration. It provides him a conservative way to punish approaches while being difficult to punish on reaction. If he overuses this, you can try going under it with dash attack, trading with it by aiming your usmash to hit his arm, or maybe full hop bairing it. You can sometimes grab him depending on how well he spaces/autocancels it, but that's weird.

If you want some videos to study, off the top of my head I feel that Jman is the guy to study as Fox (except vs. m2k for some reason), and m2k/dr. pp as Marth.

Uhh... no idea if this will be helpful or not... but yeah. okay. I tried.

 

[omgwtfToph]

 

[ShroudedOne]

=) Thanks, Winston. I've seen Lucien's video once before, but I watched it again with more understanding. I'm going to keep your post for reference, cause I think it helps. I always try the dash dance game with Marth, but I either misspace or simply get impatient. This MU is really, really tricky.

Thanks again!

EDIT: I'm also considering going through CunningKitsune's guide on Fox/Marth. Is the MU stuff in there still fairly relevant, or will reading it do me no good?

 

[unknown522]

(oh and you can even start sliding on the stage and still not get your jump back fyi).

Maybe in PAL?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

There is a time when you are close to the ground but not actually touching the ground, maybe thats what he means

 

[leffen]

Its not pal specific, but yeah, maybe its what Sveet said but you actually slow down before you get your jump back iirc.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

well if you actually touch the ground, you get your jump back.

 

[Niko45]

Fox vs Doc is all about dem PC Chris vs OTG vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_wJ_d-zBp8&feature=channel_video_title

 

[unknown522]

mmm. I see.

 

[sanchaz]

First of all, have you seen Lucien's spacing tutorial?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw

With that out of the way... here's an attempt at applying it to the Fox vs. Marth matchup:

You both dash dance a lot. By default this is spaced to prepare you for regular approaches, i.e. approaches aimed to hit the forward part of your dash dance. The spacing is approximately Fox's shffl aerial range/Marth's dash attack range, as those are the farthest forward hitboxes that they can throw out immediately. This is the "normal" or "default" range.

If either fox or marth tries to approach with a shffl aerial like this they get DD grabbed; that's what this spacing is designed for. Let's call this level 0.

A basic counter to this is overshooting. Instead of aiming the approach at the near point of the dash dance, you aim it at the far point by running forward farther than normal before doing the attack. For Fox, other options besides shffling an aerial for overshooting include dash attack and dash canceled shine. For Marth, besides dash attack he can wd forward fsmash or dash canceled dtilt. The idea is similar for all these things though.

If you assume your opponent is just doing the default dash dance, you can afford to run forward more while they dash back. If they were indeed doing the default dash dance, they will get hit by your attack since they were spaced against your "default" approach. So this is level 1; it beats the basic implementation of level 0.

If this sounds risky, it's because it is. You are just running straight at them basically, and if they choose to do an attack while you attempt this, well, you get hit. Marth can pivot grab you out of his dash away, or just stand/run forward a little and grab. Fox can pretty much do the same - intercept them with an aerial or usmash. (He can also shield if the Marth is doing dash attack/fsmashes, but that won't cut it vs. dtilt.) This level 2 might seem a little brain damaged at first (stand there and grab? really?) but it counters level 1. M2K in particular is brilliant with this simple mixup as Marth. He is excellent at grabbing people who are just running towards him, expecting him to dashdance back.

Oh but - big surprise here - level 0 counters level 2. your "level 2" options are really short ranged and if you do them while your opponent is doing his default dash dance you'll whiff and he'll get to punish your lag.

So with just those 3 things you have a sort of Rock-Paper-Scissors game going on. That's the basis of dash dance neutral game.

Of course, it's not entirely that simple in practice because of all the movement options afforded to us by this wonderful game. Within the bound of your initial dash length, you can vary your dash dance however you want; you can move forward or back with it, and vary the rhythm, etc. You can also wavedash in place, which sounds pointless, but if executed correctly the lag is quite short and so the result is a really abrupt break in the rhythm that you can use to try to throw off your opponent. You can use these kinds of things to try and gain advantages on your opponent's dashdance without committing to running straight at them - if they are insistent on staying safe they will have to concede some ground to you. Retreating is pretty much always safe, but the size of the stage is finite, and if you are forced to the corner and then have a dashdance engagement, then a lot of your options are cut off and you are at a big disadvantage. This is the other key point - you don't have to necessarily outright hit them to gain advantage; improving your position by gaining more stage is also a goal you should work
towards.

So far I've pretty much treated Fox and Marth as having analogous options, but of course Marth is a little different from Fox in that he can attempt to use aerials in neutral to keep Fox out. About this, I'll just say that Fox is fast enough so that sh fairing/nairing doesn't wall Fox out. Basically, when Marth short hops he gives away his horizontal mobility temporarily, so you can get a bit closer. Then the game becomes about his variation in timing his aerials as well as controlling his horizontal spacing relative to you. For example, if Marth sh early fairs, Fox can shffl nair him during the lag. If he late fairs, you might be able to grab/nair him depending on the spacing, but even if he spaces it well enough to avoid this you can attempt to take advantage of it by gaining space on him during the lag and pressuring him positionally. There's a bunch of other stuff he can do (waveland on a platform, empty hop, empty hop waveland, etc. etc.) but you can figure that out with experience probably.

As for marth's nair... Marth's nair is pretty weird because he can autocancel it and it's active for almost the whole duration. It provides him a conservative way to punish approaches while being difficult to punish on reaction. If he overuses this, you can try going under it with dash attack, trading with it by aiming your usmash to hit his arm, or maybe full hop bairing it. You can sometimes grab him depending on how well he spaces/autocancels it, but that's weird.

If you want some videos to study, off the top of my head I feel that Jman is the guy to study as Fox (except vs. m2k for some reason), and m2k/dr. pp as Marth.

Uhh... no idea if this will be helpful or not... but yeah. okay. I tried.

using this technique, I beat a really good marth player tink, and almost ALMOST the best marth player in the midwest, dam right it helped

GIVE MORE ADVICE

 

[RaynEX]

Winston: Your take on the match-up is interesting. IMO Melee is a very capricious game, and seeing spacing theory organized into levels like that is refreshing.

Coming back to Melee, it's been one of the hardest match-ups for me to re-learn. I think it needs to be played delicately. But then you have those moments where its absolute chaos with knockdowns left and right. Its both frustrating and fun to play.

Toph: Anytime Marth takes away your DJ AND hits you, just consider yourself dead lol