Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[weon - X]

I think he was talking about the fox v falco thing. Not sure though.

- unknown522

 

[Sinji]

I like clawing all the time. It makes things a lot easier.

 

[Palpi]

Just do it with control stick and A...its very easy.

 

[JPOBS]

I running upsmash all the time as Marth.

I can't tell if you're kidding, but I really do do running upsmash with marth, just for lols. no body hits that tech.

Just do it with control stick and A...its very easy.

this method is strickly inferior due to being slower. It charges for a few frames before hitting.

 

[Sinji]

This is a hack but I find this interesting as in some of this can be applied in regular matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYgp2OxPVyA&feature=feedf

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

That was actually pretty cool

 

[sanchaz]

This is a hack but I find this interesting as in some of this can be applied in regular matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYgp2OxPVyA&feature=feedf

jesus chirst. I couldn't watch the whole thing at one time. I thought I was going to get a seizure!!!

 

[JPOBS]

sinji why the **** did u take my avatar

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Cause he couldnt choose mine from the default ones

 

[JPOBS]

mine either! and thats the funny part

 

[Sinji]

lol. So easy to draw you out Jpobs. I just finished watching Lion King 3D.

 

[silentSWAG]

me too....................

 

[Erasor.]

Me three......................

 

[omgwtfToph]

 

[JPOBS]

lol. So easy to draw you out Jpobs. I just finished watching Lion King 3D.

you could have chose any other lion king avatar.

n****z is trollin. Sinji I can't afford to have people confusing you with me. I have a reputation to defend.

 

[Strong Badam]

This is a hack but I find this interesting as in some of this can be applied in regular matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYgp2OxPVyA&feature=feedf

you don't seem to understand the difference between hack and TAS.

 

[voorhese]

yoga !

 

[wootayng]

use index finger to press y

use thumb to press cstick up


basically the same thing as JC grabbing

haha when i do this i press x with my right thumb and my left thumb for cstick up and dash with the (almost) bottom my left index finger. your way seems a lot easier lol. do u guys think using y is significantly better then x like if you were telling someone completely new would you tell'em to learn y first? kind of like bumper jumper vs default in halo tres.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Don't want to change the topic because I find it very interesting (I saw someone using the clawing method with a luigi a week ago, first time I ever saw such shenanigans)

But I have a quick amateur question: how exactly does the fox in this video cancel his shine so quickly while keeping his horizontal momentum leaving the stage? It happens a second or two after my link to the vid starts playing. I would greatly appreciate it if someone broke down the button presses and how fast/where on the stage they need to be pressed...

link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYgopUL8kk8&t=3m36s

 

[unknown522]

I dunno why it's funnier to wake up and see tristan get trolled at 5:30AM

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Y and X are the same. Most people use only 1 button. Y is technically better, I guess, since it is more central to the other buttons you use your thumb for.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Sinji I can't afford to have people confusing you with me. I have a reputation to defend.

The call out!

 

[JPOBS]

Don't want to change the topic because I find it very interesting (I saw someone using the clawing method with a luigi a week ago, first time I ever saw such shenanigans)

But I have a quick amateur question: how exactly does the fox in this video cancel his shine so quickly while keeping his horizontal momentum leaving the stage? It happens a second or two after my link to the vid starts playing. I would greatly appreciate it if someone broke down the button presses and how fast/where on the stage they need to be pressed...

link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYgopUL8kk8&t=3m36s

Its a ledge cancelled, jump cancelled shine.

To use less technical jargon, he's running to the ledge and then shine. He jumps to cancel the shine as normal, but the act of sliding off the stage cancels his jump, so he just falls.

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol pretty funny about the avatar stealing.

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

Hey guys--

How do you edgeguard Fox/Falco? I've usually grabbed the ledge and then tried to use dropdown -> DJ bair to cover:
illusion to ledge/slightly above ledge
firefox to ledge/slightly above ledge
and then if they go significantly above the ledge I've landed on stage and can bair again/grab whatever.

Though recently, I've felt like this isn't nearly as effective as it should be theoretically (maybe I'm just executing poorly?). Now I'm considering down-tilted ftilt to cover ledge/slightly above ledge options, which should give me ample time to cover any above-ledge options. What do you guys do/think is effective?

 

[omgwtfToph]

I think that shine stalling -> bair is better than holding the ledge -> bair. Also, I personally like utilting the illusion more than downward ftilt, but probably only because I suck at downward ftilt. If you're setting up to utilt and you see the opponent go for the ledge, you can just dsmash too (or shine against side-B's to the ledge).

Drill is really really good btw. Try to hit drill instead of bair when you have ledge invincibility, because it leads to a free shine spike.

 

[silentSWAG]

thats what most of us do in pittsburgh. cause the down tilted f-tilt is pretty hard to tech and covers most options. i personly like dsmash aswell at lower percents. u may want to consider wave dashing on to the ledge in time so if they go for the ledge they die and if they dont go for the ledge you can react to where they go.

 

[EWC]

Keep your back to the ledge and do one of:
uptilt
bair
dsmash
wd to ledge of they go below stage or you think they will try to sweetspot

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think that shine stalling -> bair is better than holding the ledge -> bair. Also, I personally like utilting the illusion more than downward ftilt, but probably only because I suck at downward ftilt. If you're setting up to utilt and you see the opponent go for the ledge, you can just dsmash too (or shine against side-B's to the ledge).

Drill is really really good btw. Try to hit drill instead of bair when you have ledge invincibility, because it leads to a free shine spike.

I find the lack of invincibility on the shine - wait - shine cancel - bair is problematic against really good squeezes or an opponent that also finds a way to stall in some way. If they can do a super perfect squeeze, I find dair works because it hits lower. If they're high, missing the bair is okay because you can knock them over or hit them pretty easily using Fox's numerous long-lasting moves (u-tilt, u-smash's back hit, bair, nair, dash grab on FD) and each of those can situationally lead to really good stuff.

I'd rather miss the edgeguard on my edgeguard flubs but not get hit, than risk being hit offstage without my jump. I hate leaving home, or the edge, without my precious invincibility (unless I'm Sheik because, well, her range and ability to jump far off is so good it's basically like LOLGGNORE).

 

[Winston]

I like ftilt over utilt/dsmash because it has a better chance of hitting shortens. But if they don't shorten, then the "stand backwards" algorithm is quite good.

There's a nice little optimization of the utilt edgeguard that I think is underused. Most people full hop bair after the utilt at mid to mid-high percents, but with survival DI they really don't get sent that far, and the angle is really high. What works better is waiting for them to fall a bit and then sh bairing, which will combo into a full hop nair offstage if they survival DIed.

(I think this is fairly underused in general actually and it's something I do off my uthrows at mid percent on spacies if it's near enough to the edge that they will be at least a little worried about getting sent offstage. I dunno if it's optimal for that, though.)

Anyway, if they up B instead of illusion, scoot onto the edge and you can cover ~2/3 of their options with appropriately timed ledgehop aerial to either the downwards sweetspot or going straight (pick one, sometimes you can't cover both) -> land and full jump aerial to cover the high angle.

Mixing in the occasional wait -> jump out and shinespike their up B startup is also a good thing to do

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

Thanks everyone, this has all been very helpful; so it seems to me that I'm just executing poorly. Two examples from this weekend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B9Rw3aFR7k#t=1m20s
1:20 -- I do the bair which covers any lower firefox options, since he went high here I had enough time to fsmash/dsmash/shine but since I'm awful I just fail. Is it safe to simply get one of those 3 options into my muscle memory? I THINK if you do the bair correctly there shouldn't be an angle where they avoid the bair AND avoid being hit by an fsmash/dsmash...?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B9Rw3aFR7k#t=3m43s
3:43 -- I think I just did the bair too early here. If I had done it later it would have hit, and if he had gone higher instead, I think I would have had enough time to land and do another bair. I think the lesson here is just to gauge how far away they are from the ledge and not panic and bair too soon >_>

I like ftilt over dsmash for illusion because it has less lag, meaning you can follow it up if they're at lower percents where they don't immediately die, and I think it hits slightly higher. I like to aim for the head when I do illusions to recover vs Fox/Falco since it avoids the dsmash but still hits them. I don't think the same thing works vs ftilt.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I like ftilt over utilt/dsmash because it has a better chance of hitting shortens. But if they don't shorten, then the "stand backwards" algorithm is quite good.

There's a nice little optimization of the utilt edgeguard that I think is underused. Most people full hop bair after the utilt at mid to mid-high percents, but with survival DI they really don't get sent that far, and the angle is really high. What works better is waiting for them to fall a bit and then sh bairing, which will combo into a full hop nair offstage if they survival DIed.

(I think this is fairly underused in general actually and it's something I do off my uthrows at mid percent on spacies if it's near enough to the edge that they will be at least a little worried about getting sent offstage. I dunno if it's optimal for that, though.)

Anyway, if they up B instead of illusion, scoot onto the edge and you can cover ~2/3 of their options with appropriately timed ledgehop aerial to either the downwards sweetspot or going straight (pick one, sometimes you can't cover both) -> land and full jump aerial to cover the high angle.

Mixing in the occasional wait -> jump out and shinespike their up B startup is also a good thing to do

Thing about shortens is that, if you miss with u-tilt, you can u-tilt again and hit them unless they sweetspotted (it feels really weird to learn but it does work; alternatively, just SH bair and shine and unless they perfect sweetspot it will work). But if they sweetspotted, you couldn't hit them with the tilt anyway and should have done something else (not 100% sure on this, since I've seen some really low Illusions gets hit by u-tilt, and bair/shine are fickle versus low recoveries in general). At any rate, aside from up tilt, I'm a fan of grabbing the edge or empty jumping and then choosing an aerial accordingly; I find dair is really brutal to sweetspot Illusions if you time it well (dair > run off shine super fast before they can get firefox hitbox out > stock [or abuse ledge invincibility if you're lazier or not quick enough to react; either works]). If they're just out of dair's range horizontally, L-canceiing it into shine or d-smash often nicks them for the kill too.

Somehow I shine a lot of Illusions and hit them correctly. I'm not sure how, or why, but somehow it happens a lot. I know if they miss their sweetspot on the edge, shining them is pretty easy and not difficult to time, though, so maybe it's something like that.

I noticed the KB and trajectory difference in u-tilt a while ago (initially with Sheik, I think, but I realized it applies to Fox too and made the appropriate adjustments) and I've been telling people in my community to wait for momentum to run out before bairing for a few months now, but I guess I should have posted it here because it really does make a huge difference in the u-tilt edgeguard's efficiency. The exception to the wait rule is when you're trying to link a weak aerial (or strong aerial, at lower percents I guess) to another aerial, u-smash, shine, d-smash, etc. because you know they're going to survival DI the aerial that follows the u-tilt (you can do all that without the upwards momentum, though, but I find it easier with because it reduces the horizontal momentum or at least seems like it, which makes for an easier follow). Sometimes the upwards momentum can be the difference between semi-charging an up smash that will then KO for sure, and having to do an option like bair or whatever that can be DIed.

I've gotten u-tilt > nair/bair (weak or strong) > d-smash/bair/u-smash/shine/nair many times and it's extremely effective once you get the hang for the u-tilt's momentum (usually, a supplementary edgeguard is not required). If you wanna do something crazy cute, you can actually DD > double shine after the aerial at certain percents, but it's really hard and I've only ever done it in training mode. At the same percents (forget exactly but maybe 60?) that the DD > double shine works, d-smash and bair work too (and they feed off the first nair or bair's shift to horizontal momentum and will probably kill or make an easy shine spike at worst).

If you miss a ledgehop aerial, I maintain that missing it was still better than risking trading because trades can put you in a bad position. Without taking habits into account*, I'd say almost always cover the low recovery because the high one you can stalk and usually 50/50 some kind of aerial (if you can tell what they're doing, it's easy to get a substantial punish even if it's just uair when they land on a platform to another uair or a bair; that's 31% or so, which is nuts, and it's kept them in a bad position). Always defending the low recovery also means, if they have high ledge game proficiency (invincible ledgedashes, which are becoming more common) they don't get to use it. I'd much prefer Fox on a platform at frame disadvantage, myself (or in a free-fall that he'll land from right before I get there, which lets me go on the offense without worrying so much about him moving back).

In a somewhat related note, I would add that something more Foxes should do is slam up on the control stick immediately after aiming downwards for the Firefox sweetspot because if you're hit out of it while holding down and in, you're gonna be hoggable if you're over 60 (or something ridiculous). Holding up significantly improves survivability, or chance of forcing a second edgeguard iteration, and the more times they have to jump through hoops, the greater the chance that they slip up or become complacent. Even if you die, complacency in the opponent is good. Make them feel something will absolutely work and that they're a freaking boss, and then break their confidence with... crazy Fox mixups. Like drillshine up smash, intentionally weird ground moves, or dash attack (kind of kidding, kind of not).






* Obviously if they always recover poorly (or maybe they are trying to play headgames by doing suboptimal things? Again, this is where recognizing when people are trying to trick you is important), and don't mix it up, mindlessly cover that option. Duh. Play to your opponent. The above is just an extremely effective base strategy for the start of the match, or until they prove something else would work better IMHO.

 

[Winston]

Thing about shortens is that, if you miss with u-tilt, you can u-tilt again and hit them unless they sweetspotted (it feels really weird to learn but it does work; alternatively, just SH bair and shine and unless they perfect sweetspot it will work).

Hmm, would utilt really afford enough time hit something like this with another move?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X10vJ24QSms#t=6m47s

(Ignore the part where I'm playing Falco and I obviously should have lasered >_>)

When I'm playing it always seems like he disappears and then reappears on the edge, but I guess there might be enough delay for it to work.

Sh bair -> shine isn't something I've used much so I guess I'll give that a try.

But if they sweetspotted, you couldn't hit them with the tilt anyway and should have done something else (not 100% sure on this, since I've seen some really low Illusions gets hit by u-tilt, and bair/shine are fickle versus low recoveries in general).

Yeah, I guess that's kind of what I meant, in that the "something else" option I like is downward ftilt. Dsmash is too vulnerable when it misses, and you can't time it to cover both a sweetspot shorten and a regular sweetspot afaik. Facing forward also gives me more time to walk to the very edge while watching him and attempting to react.

I might be overrating downward ftilt cause I play falco sometimes for fun and his is better or something but I treat them the same in my head...

I guess I should just predict and edgehog a lot more often than I do, especially vs. Wenbo since habits etc., but I'm trying to figure out the most broadly applicable options.

Ledgehop aerials seems like it should work well but sometimes I don't hit when he shortens and I never know if it's because I mistimed it or because shortening is magic. I mean I know it's always possible to hit the shorten if you time it later, but it feels like you are giving up the non-shorten illusion with that timing, so it's back to a 50/50 type thing.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ledgehop aerial edgeguards that fail vs sweetspot illusions a result of the illusioning character dodging the aerial and then grabbing the edge safely generally happen because the edgeguarding player mistimes the tilt. Usually because he's (understandably) preparing for a non-shortened deeper recovery, and he doesn't compensate for the option of shortening by simply landing close to the edge and d-smashing/shining. Fox down smash really can be used versus recoveries like this because it is really quick with surprisingly decent range offstage; frame 6 is no joke, and shine randomly works versus everything. He has more options than just those, though. I actually like f-tilt after missing the aerial sometimes because after it you can usually run off immediately, overlap your bodies, and shine him for a KO, which is just fabulous.

What you linked can happen for Fox, for sure. But I'd argue it's much less likely to happen for a few reasons. One major one is that Fox can cut an edgeguard short and u-tilt > uair once momentum has worn off at KO percents and he gets more momentum from his dash > full jump, so he might have been able to follow in that specific situation (I think, if it was Fox, weak bair > either opponent DIs it offstage which is fine or gets combo'd offstage [also fine] would have been a very possible outcome).

I also generally feel the consistency of up tilt > aerial is really powerful and the fact that it's so easy to hit and will usually work (and can be thrown out against more recovery options than f-tilt variants and is safer on whiff than a smash [while still generally covering more because of its speed] makes it a very strong edgeguard and I would almost always recommend it as a go-to, even if it has flaws in certain percent ranges, etc. I think the pros outweigh the cons, and it generally feels like it outclasses f-tilt and other ground edgeguards. The fact that you can be sort of mindless about the u-tilt, and it requires low precision is really good.

 

[Winston]

I couldn't link exactly to what I wanted to since youtube's time thing isn't exact. Haha, I guess I didn't clarify that at all. I was trying to link to the shorten that he did to recover, since I'm skeptical that utilt/bair -> dsmash/shine would cover it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh! I'm sorry. Let me rewatch then. Youtube times are fickle and since u-tilt > bair was sort of what we were talking about, I thought that was what you meant. I may have to take a break though because my eyes are starting to get a bit sore from all this serious posting.

If I'm watching the edgeguard I think I'm supposed to be watching, I strongly feel u-tilt > shine / d-smash would have been able to get that shorten, or simply SHFFLing a bair (or nair/dair; I think those two might hit lower; ledgehop nair is also mad underrated and underused as an edgeguard) into d-smash or shine could can gotten it. Less sure about the shine because he was fairly far off the stage and it looked like he was gonna grab it from far away. In that case, Falco didn't have much time to grab the edge, though, and I'm not convinced Fox would have been able to do it either.




.

 

[Winston]

Neat, thanks.

(6:48, if there's any ambiguity still).

(and I've no objections to the utilt-> bair stuff, it's really good)

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ledgehop nair I think would have been more appropriate than bair, after rewatching it. Its lower hitbox (I think) would have nicked Fox's head if he hung in the air, or the lower lag would have enabled a down smash or whatever. Ledgehop nair is really underrated, on that note, especially because it doesn't have a weak hit like bair, and it knocks away so it's useable vs higher recoveries (unlike dair). The reduced l-cancel time does matter; three frames is a lot.

I sometimes down tilt on low illusions so I can combo them offstage with some sort of KO but I don't think it's as good as most of his other options; namely the ones we listed, and edgehogging. Edeghogging is amazing. You can often ledeghop right before they're gonna illusion in or preparation for the illusion and grab the edge with a FF before they reach with the ledge.

Fox has a lot of ways to kill himself when he goes offstage.






(Agreement that up tilt > move > maybe another move > edgeguard and aerial > ground move or hog setups [I forgot to mention SH bair > edgecancel > edgehog, which is amazing] is extremely solid <3)

 

[JPOBS]

what do you mean by waiting for the momentum to wear off after the uptilt?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wait for them to stop moving up.