Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[G.L.]

How do you do those weird dash tricks that mango always does with fox?

 

[Wenbobular]

...What, dashdancing? <_<

 

[silentSWAG]

whats cancel sliding?

 

[sanchaz]

so. once I sweet spot the edge using fire fox, or illusion. what do I do next, lol.

the situation is the other character is falco, which can punish youif you mess up.

here are the options I know and I believe what the result is 90% of the time.

1) ledge hop=bad
2) illusion back on stage= medicore
3) down-air= medicore
4) wavdash on, then buffer roll= good
5) wavedash on, shine= best one?

how should fox get back on stage to regain stage control?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

wavedave on, reverse utilt
wavedash on, shield

also ledgehop dair and ledgehop platform wavedash mixup

 

[Wenbobular]

Invincible ledgedash Nair gets you super far into the stage
Invincible ledgedash anything gets you pretty far into the stage, but you have to be confident in ledgedashing

Ledgedash upsmash > SH aerials, ledgedash grab > shield, ledgedash Nair > everything short of running to the opposite end of the stage but is hard to do fast

Once you show your opponent you can ledgedash well (like with invincibility) then you can mix in bad options because they'll legitimately get ***** if they don't respect you for it

 

[Palpi]

just practice it like 10 minutes a day for a week and it becomes really really easy. I have doing it a lot lately

 

[JPOBS]

Don't forget ledge attack! fox's <100 ledge attack is fast with surprising range.

 

[Wenbobular]

Or standup -> roll, the most ghetto of options that is hard to cover unless you're specifically trying to get the standup

 

[sanchaz]

hmmm. I like winston to answer this question. following his advice is making me money. so....

 

[Wenbobular]

I'm his housemate, does that help

Besides, you've listed all the bad options ... if you think about it for like, half a second, all of Fox's ledgehop options have hardcounters, and it doesn't help that most of them all get hard countered by short hop aerials (or just standing out of ledgehop aerial range <_<)

Ledgedashing straight up makes you invincible for 10+ frames after the ledgedash if you do it fast enough, lets you upsmash aerials, Nair through people, etc etc etc ...

I mean I'm not very good at making onstage decisions with Fox, but I'm like ... quite good at ledgedashing, and it works on everything short of being on the the other half of the stage for small stages like Yoshi's

 

[PK Webb]

im HORRIBLE vs falcon that is the only match up im uncomfortable with any help???

 

[sanchaz]

I'm his housemate, does that help

Besides, you've listed all the bad options ... if you think about it for like, half a second, all of Fox's ledgehop options have hardcounters, and it doesn't help that most of them all get hard countered by short hop aerials (or just standing out of ledgehop aerial range <_<)

Ledgedashing straight up makes you invincible for 10+ frames after the ledgedash if you do it fast enough, lets you upsmash aerials, Nair through people, etc etc etc ...

I mean I'm not very good at making onstage decisions with Fox, but I'm like ... quite good at ledgedashing, and it works on everything short of being on the the other half of the stage for small stages like Yoshi's

lol, okay fine, I'll go to the lab to test this shiz out later

 

[Palpi]

im HORRIBLE vs falcon that is the only match up im uncomfortable with any help???

What do you feel you have problems with?

Your Dash dance spacing needs to be good since he has a great dash dance. Be careful of overshot nairs from falcon because they can hit your dash away part of the dash dance.

Falcon's techs are pretty easy to ****. You can react to pretty much all of his options if you know he has to tech..or miss a tech. Nair->grab is great, nair to utilt...typical shine combos obviously work well like shine->upsmash. You can combo SOME falcon's from grabs pretty well, but it seems like higher level falcons get out of uthrow combos a lot better, so I tend to use shine->upsmash on better players.

Don't try to get too fancy with edge guards and don't over commit to one of his options. Like if falcon has the choice of DI'ing onto the stage or onto the ledge, don't commit to one too heavily because you will often get fooled by their weird recovery DI. As long as you can punish one of their options, you will still have control of the pace of the match, so you don't always have to go for the option that will gimp them, because I am sure you know that top falcons tend to fool a lot of their opponents.

Shine->dsmash is actually a very good kill set up, since it sends low and offstage and a lot of falcons aren't ready for this because it isn't used, so they probably won't tech it.

Understanding falcon's up-B hitbox makes him REALLY easy to shine gimp. For instance shining him from the stage, or hanging on the ledge you can ledge hop to shine, then drop the shine and regrab. Little, simple things edge guard falcon very easily.

I have seen SFAT doing a lot of running shine->upsmash approaches against falcons, im not really keen on doing this, but it seems to get passed falcon's DD spacing sometimes.

yeah.... what are you having trouble with

 

[Wenbobular]

@sanchaz - some videos for reference

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlbJv3N0NqQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUfyyt8XMIE

Some sweet ledgedashing in action *toots horn*
The first one is a little messy but whatever <.<
You can get them clean enough that you don't hear all of the Fox grunting sound

 

[PK Webb]

What do you feel you have problems with?

Your Dash dance spacing needs to be good since he has a great dash dance. Be careful of overshot nairs from falcon because they can hit your dash away part of the dash dance.

Falcon's techs are pretty easy to ****. You can react to pretty much all of his options if you know he has to tech..or miss a tech. Nair->grab is great, nair to utilt...typical shine combos obviously work well like shine->upsmash. You can combo SOME falcon's from grabs pretty well, but it seems like higher level falcons get out of uthrow combos a lot better, so I tend to use shine->upsmash on better players.

Don't try to get too fancy with edge guards and don't over commit to one of his options. Like if falcon has the choice of DI'ing onto the stage or onto the ledge, don't commit to one too heavily because you will often get fooled by their weird recovery DI. As long as you can punish one of their options, you will still have control of the pace of the match, so you don't always have to go for the option that will gimp them, because I am sure you know that top falcons tend to fool a lot of their opponents.

Shine->dsmash is actually a very good kill set up, since it sends low and offstage and a lot of falcons aren't ready for this because it isn't used, so they probably won't tech it.

Understanding falcon's up-B hitbox makes him REALLY easy to shine gimp. For instance shining him from the stage, or hanging on the ledge you can ledge hop to shine, then drop the shine and regrab. Little, simple things edge guard falcon very easily.

I have seen SFAT doing a lot of running shine->upsmash approaches against falcons, im not really keen on doing this, but it seems to get passed falcon's DD spacing sometimes.

yeah.... what are you having trouble with

Its their nair they stuff me alot. Their spacing because if i over shoot i get stuffed if i undershoot i get grabbed if i run shine i get bair'ed. now this is against like pc chris's falcon so there is a skill gap but i find his sheik fox marth way easier than his falcon. i just dont feel comfortable at all.

 

[Sinji]

Use utilts to stop falcons aerials.
up throw>usmash around 15-30%
laser camp
bair, fsmash or dsmash to edge guard him. (shine is a risky edge guard, but use it when falling from a middle level platform).
upthrow>nair around 50-70% to produce a follow up (depending on the DI)
Waveshine combo of course

I think thats it for falcon.

 

[G.L.]

...What, dashdancing? <_<

like at 00:48 in this match, right after his first kill on armada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLRw9zJMf9o

 

[Wenbobular]

O sorry, I thought you were talking about something useful ¬.¬

You can use moonwalking as a sort of slingshot, the input is similar to a stickywalk but I don't know how to do it (nor is it very useful)

 

[G.L.]

yea its definitely not useful, but it looks pretty awesome.

 

[PK Webb]

walk 1 direction
gain momentum
hit the other direction (as if u was dashdancing)
then do a half circle from there back to the direction you were first walking in
the more momentum gained the farther u go

 

[sanchaz]

yea its definitely not useful, but it looks pretty awesome.

this tactic is VERY USEFUL! learn it to mind**** the other player.

source: I win tournaments in my region

sawthe vids. I'll try it bro

 

[Wenbobular]

It's really not, most competent players nowadays know about dumb moonwalking tricks <_< it's a one shot gimmick at best

Feel free to learn it when your tech skill is like flawless, but trying really hard to learn how to moonwalk really isn't going to help you win many games

 

[mers]

laser camp

Against Falcon? God no.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dash dance camp with occasional lasers

 

[ShroudedOne]

That confused me too. I didn't think laser camping against Falcon was recommended.

 

[Winston]

Haha, we had this argument like a week ago didn't we?

I can see Sveet's point, even if I don't think it's good in theory.

 

[sanchaz]

run at captain falcon and watch him be a ***** with run away back air, eventrually there's no more stage for him to run away. so then you perform moves that beat his moves.

ALL CAPTAIN FALCONS ARE *****ES IN THEIR GAMEPLAY! it's good, but I bet the captain falcon your facing back-airs a lot.

sveet: I gotta call you out on this as you can be more effective by running at captain falcon, wait until his back air wall has lag, and then punish, HARD.

In general as well: up-tilt destroys falcon, great combo moves, and beats most of falcon's moves. just don't wake up then up-tlt.

 

[silentSWAG]

isnt cactuar really good at the falcon match up

 

[Palpi]

Yes. Yes he is.

 

[PK Webb]

pc chris does way more than back air.....i mean i feel unfortable vs pc hax nando................higher playing falcons

 

[sanchaz]

pc chris does way more than back air.....i mean i feel unfortable vs pc hax nando................higher playing falcons

oh, pc chirs, silentspectre, and darkrain are exceptions, but they are still captain falcon. there's a limited to what they can do

hax however is pretty campy, he's just the best falcon that can do it, watch his matches closer.

you have to realize falcon doesn't have many options.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sveet: I gotta call you out on this as you can be more effective by running at captain falcon, wait until his back air wall has lag, and then punish, HARD.

I never endorsed it. There are almost always better options than camping, except maybe in fox dittos

 

[Silent Wolf]

lasers are good if falcon is playing defensive. it woudlnt be more worth it to try and rush in if a falcon is really good at defensive play. when i say rush in i guess i just mean a plan to get an attack in other than safe lasers in this case lol. if you know when to use lasers theyre not that risky lol. being greedy and using them when you dont have to becomes risky.

 

[ruhtraeel]

What do you guys do after you shine a Marth on the ground

I usually either wavedash out then run JC grab if I'm feeling safe or wavedash out into SH nair or if I'm feeling tech skill spammy then I'll WD jab SH d-air shine WD jab F-smash lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

waveshine usmash

 

[Sinji]

Or you can shine>grab on low percentages.

 

[Winston]

Does uthrow uair always combo on Marth at any (low) percent for any DI?

Sometimes they DI forward and fair me out of it but I'm not sure if it was because I was slow

 

[KirbyKaze]

From like 0-15 before the throw I think?

 

[Winston]

That's when it doesn't combo on forward DI?

alternatively you could tell me how to get the CPU to DI forward in training mode, if that's possible