Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Winston]

By consistently I mean like... 95%+.

You're right though, I should revise my statement to say <5 people worldwide who are high profile enough to be known by people outside their region. Or something like that.


I mean I don't think it's unreasonably difficult or anything; maybe in a year it will be common. But right now it sure isn't.

And yea, wavelanding on platforms is good. But I don't think it puts you at much of an advantage unless the position is just right that a waveland towards them lets you fall off the platform with an aerial on top of them. It seems approximately neutral to me.

 

[JPOBS]

Idk anything about Sheik, but shine OOS's amazingness is limited if they tech it consistently (which is doable I think)

< 5 people in the world are able to stay grounded off the shine oos consistently, and if you leave the ground while they tech you get no advantage.

shine oos is almost an auto-tech because of intended l-canceling.
its gay.

sheik's nair oos isn't gamebreaking either tho so whatever.

 

[Erkekjetter]

I feel like shine OOS is almost game breaking in the Falco match up. If you're on point with your shine OOS, almost any attempt to shield pressure, besides exceptionally spaced bairs, by the Falco gives you at least a shine OOS to reset to neutral.

 

[JPOBS]

Heh, its just another tool really. There are spacings of falco shield pressure that limit or invalidate the usefulness of shine oos, and im not just talking about bair.

its really good, but certainly not game breaking or anything. imo the best thing about it is that they have to respect that its there. So they have to space and do timings to account for the shine oos, but that opens up options for you to do things like upsmash oos or wd oos more reliably.
its like the invicible ledgedash in that way. Good on its ow, better because of what it allows you to get away with

 

[Erkekjetter]

That's sort of what i meant, once people figure out that you can shine OOS them every time, they have to really think about what they're trying to do to you. If they don't figure it out though, or can't get around it, it's just chunks of free damage.

 

[Winston]

vs. good falco players, I see it more as taking a risk for the chance to reset to neutral, similar to WD oos/roll/jump oos/etc.

If they doubleshine (or early aerial) because they anticipate your shine OOS attempt you'll be in trouble.

it's a fine option to be sure, but I think it's easy to fall into the habit of relying on it too much.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I disagree with saying that shine OoS isn't good unless you stay grounded. Its a bad mentality to think about punishes while in a defensive position. Escaping the pressure and resetting neutral is a good enough reward.

 

[omgwtfToph]

vs. good falco players, I see it more as taking a risk for the chance to reset to neutral, similar to WD oos/roll/jump oos/etc.

If they doubleshine (or early aerial) because they anticipate your shine OOS attempt you'll be in trouble.

it's a fine option to be sure, but I think it's easy to fall into the habit of relying on it too much.

shine oos definitely beats early aerial, and can even beat sloppy doubleshines

 

[Winston]

^ yea you're right about it beating early aerial >_> idk why I was thinking otherwise

I'd rather not count on their doubleshines being slow, though, if they're a good player

I disagree with saying that shine OoS isn't good unless you stay grounded. Its a bad mentality to think about punishes while in a defensive position. Escaping the pressure and resetting neutral is a good enough reward.

Yea, I meant it's not like... amazing. It definitely is good enough to use, and you should. I guess I posted with the tone I did because I used to overrate it when I first started using it a lot

 

[Sinji]

Nair oos at mid percents in the middle of the stage.
shine oos near the edge (especially when falco ledge hop double laser)

Has anyone tried short hop uair oos to punish the falco player for missing their L-Cancel?

 

[Diakonos]

I wish Marth could shine OOS

 

[Erasor.]

Shine oos can be a habit any you can get punished for it.
I would recommend using shine oos near the edge or on a high platform to avoid pressure.

 

[omgwtfToph]

you can't really punish someone for using shine oos properly. all you can do is alter your pressure game (you have to start respecting their shield a lot more)

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can punish shine oos on prediction, just not reaction. It's all about spacing.

 

[KAOSTAR]

shine oos is almost an auto-tech because of intended l-canceling.
its gay.

sheik's nair oos isn't gamebreaking either tho so whatever.

u still deal damage and stop their pressure. imo that means u win.

 

[Winston]

Right, of course it's a good thing when it works, I'm just saying that the advantage gained isn't very large, and the advantage they gain from predicting it is.

This is rather similar to many of the other oos options he has, such as wd oos or whatever. It's still better as a default cause it does do a little damage and they won't always hit the tech, but I think they are roughly in the same category.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I disagree. The advantage gained from getting a space animal off of your shield is enormous, and "predicting" shine oos doesn't really do much for you.

 

[JPOBS]

shine oos should be entirely reactionary by the fox anyway.

i don't see how predicting shine oos is gonna help you. the fox shouldn't be doing it if it isn't going to hit or be completely safe anyway. Its not something that you have to commit to at all

 

[leffen]

um, shining after their shine (where he has a giant window even if hes perfect) needs to be predicted...

 

[Sinji]

um, shining after their shine (where he has a giant window even if hes perfect) needs to be predicted...

I saw this a couple of times during Jman's and Mango's sets in the past.

 

[Riddlebox]

Hey guys, if you're interested: www.twitchtv.com/eschamptv

the stream for the Melee tournament at A&C right now =) Ft Raynex, Unknown, I.B, Weonx, Tect, Europhoria.

 

[omgwtfToph]

ozmg europhoria

 

[Sauce Boss]

I've seen some pretty well placed shine oos for edgeguarding, light shield tilted say marth up-b's into the shield shine oos=kill.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The best trick is to fthrow marth/sheik off the stage then dash forward and immediately shield. They think you are gonna do something stupid like try to shine spike and double jump fairs at you. This hits your shield and you shine OoS. Next stock.

 

[Sauce Boss]

The best trick is to fthrow marth/sheik off the stage then dash forward and immediately shield. They think you are gonna do something stupid like try to shine spike and double jump fairs at you. This hits your shield and you shine OoS. Next stock.

Fox, doing your stocks like an accountant does papers since 01'

 

[Sinji]

The best trick is to fthrow marth/sheik off the stage then dash forward and immediately shield. They think you are gonna do something stupid like try to shine spike and double jump fairs at you. This hits your shield and you shine OoS. Next stock.

I like how you posted in a players stand point.

 

[sanchaz]

so..............

wtf do you do in fox ditto's? like approach, shine, and punish the wake up??? I saw the canada tourney, and I still have no idea how to get better in fox dittos

 

[Winston]

shine oos definitely beats early aerial, and can even beat sloppy doubleshines

Thought about this some more, and it definitely does NOT beat shine -> early retreating aerial. Even if you get the shine out ASAP after theirs, the spacing will make it so the shine doesn't hit. (Also tested it).

I disagree. The advantage gained from getting a space animal off of your shield is enormous, and "predicting" shine oos doesn't really do much for you.

shine oos should be entirely reactionary by the fox anyway.

i don't see how predicting shine oos is gonna help you. the fox shouldn't be doing it if it isn't going to hit or be completely safe anyway. Its not something that you have to commit to at all

Shining after their shine is the main time to do it, I thought. Sure you can use it to beat early aerials on shield on reaction, but you can do lots of stuff to early aerials, so it's just giving you a bit more margin of error in return for a much smaller punish in that case. Unless you can consistently tell the difference between a shineable but not shieldgrabbable early aerial. (Maybe you can, and I'd be wrong; I have no idea, because I can't do it.)

Anyway, ways they can punish your shine oos on prediction:

doubleshine, early retreat aerial

Fairly safe thing that doesn't directly punish it but puts you in a bad spot:

waveshine backwards -> take advantage of the fact that you jumped

 

[KAOSTAR]

its generally easier to escape if they are forced into fading away.

 

[omgwtfToph]

if shine oos isn't beating shine -> early retreating aerial, then you aren't shining oos nearly fast enough

 

[Sinji]

lol well duh.

You get the frame advantage.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Does usmash oos beat early aerials out of their shine? I am sure the margin of error is greater (than shine oos) even if you do have frame advantage against the early aerial

 

[Winston]

its generally easier to escape if they are forced into fading away.

Sure, but they aren't forced into fading away. It's still a mixed strategy thing where they have the options of doing regular pillaring, doubleshining, fadeaway aerial, waveshine back, shinegrab, whatever.

And shine OOS beats some of those things and gets punished by others.

If your point is that forcing them to deal with it is valuable, then I agree. Just trying to put its real value into perspective

if shine oos isn't beating shine -> early retreating aerial, then you aren't shining oos nearly fast enough

For me, the shine comes out before the dair hits me, but it misses because of the spacing.

I can shine oos vs. shinegrab, so I don't think I'm that slow. I'm sure I'm not close to frame perfect, though. Are you saying you can do it that precisely?

I feel like they have an advantage in timing because jumping out of shine is a set muscle memory string that they can practice easily. But maybe I'm underestimating how well people can time stuff

For reference, frame data on shine -> early aerial:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=2712857&postcount=37

Things to consider - the shine may be stale, but keep in mind Falco is probably out of range of the shine before the dair fully comes out.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if wavedash oos isn't beating shine -> early retreating aerial, then you aren't wavedashing nearly fast enough

ftf y

 

[EWC]

Hey why not just powershield and then uptilt instead

 

[voorhese]

yeah i think <5 in the world is really really low I can do it very consistently, and when i do come off the ground i react to that and don't aerial dodge. and im a no-name. point is im sure there are technical people like me that aren't really known of that can do it very often.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Anyone who doesnt know voorhese is a noob

 

[FoxLisk]

Anyone who doesnt know voorhese is a noob

pretty much all i know about voorhese is that he can gruonded waveshine oos consistently... what does that make me?

 

[voorhese]

informed .

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

voorhese can also grounded oos reverse shine grab