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what did that post accomplish, Sinji?
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Palpi
Smash Hero
Well said strong bad
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
What did that post accomplish, Palpi?
JPOBS
Smash Hero
c-c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker.
crush
Smash Master
what did that post accomplish, JPOBS?
Palpi
Smash Hero
What did that accomplish, crush?
Sinji
Smash Master
What did that accomplish, palpi?
crush
Smash Master
what did that post accomplish, Sinji?
Crooked Crow
drank from lakes of sorrow
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2007
- Messages
- 2,247
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLb3n4rqH0I#t=5m31s
I finally got some videos uploaded, but only want the third game to be analyzed as the previous two matches of this set aren't a real representation of either mine or my opponents skill level, we made careless mistakes throughout both games.
Advice and critique are welcomed. I won three matches of Fox dittos earlier, but they weren't recorded.
Thanks in advance.
I finally got some videos uploaded, but only want the third game to be analyzed as the previous two matches of this set aren't a real representation of either mine or my opponents skill level, we made careless mistakes throughout both games.
Advice and critique are welcomed. I won three matches of Fox dittos earlier, but they weren't recorded.
Thanks in advance.
Sinji
Smash Master
In the beginning of the match, your opponent was pressuring your shield with a nair shine combo. What you want to do is shine out of shield after the opponents shine. This is good for two reasons.
1. Your shield was low so in order to get a frame advantage, shine would help you out.
2. Your opponent was near to the edge. Triggering a shine oos in this situation would gimp your opponent off of the stage leaving an easy edge guard or edge hog.
No problems with DI'ing on the platforms. Your doing the right thing their.
I noticed your opponent was holding his shield whenever you approach him on platform. And then punish whenever you use nair. A good mix up would be waveland>grab.
8:12-8:14 The dair shine shield pressure can be countered with shine oos after the opponents shine.
Over all, It was a great match to see.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You guys need to use half as many up smashes and twice as many grabs. Or something. The sheer volume of up smashes is disturbing.
You guys need a lot more control over your characters. There's a ton of botched movement and missed follows because of it. I'm not actually sure what you guys are going for a lot of the time. It should be clear what you're doing when you hit someone in a Fox ditto.
At super low percents I don't usually like using bair to follow platforms that high (it's sometimes good, but not in any of the situations you used it in). I would seriously recommend trying to up air until like 30 just because it'll actually do something you can follow directly if you hit it. Other stuff that's sometimes good includes drill grab and waveland > up tilt / grab (I don't think either of you used either of those; they're really good).
Edgeguarding was generally bad or botched in some way, but the recovery decisions were equally bad or botched in some way. I think most kills were just moves that were bad DI'd at like 120% or so and then no edgeguard was required. On that note, proper survival DI vs bairs, f-smashes, etc. requires you to hold more up than in. The stick should be at an 80 or 100 degree angle or so (depending on which way you're getting hit).
After you hit this up air, you should up tilt or SHFFL something. Even if you hit that bair, you wouldn't be able to follow because he'd probably grab the edge or recover before you're out of your FJ.
You guys shine each other off the ground way too much for the tech chase. Just up tilt. Or down tilt. Or up smash. Or... something that actually leads to something. Shine obviously does lead to stuff but a lot of these situations have easier follows that automatically lead to better stuff, and doesn't require you to tech chase (or leads to a better tech chase; positioning your opponent by hitting them with specific moves is very useful).
You guys should try using dash attack more. After about 40% it's actually a very good way of stuffing or trading with a lot of his aerial approaches (surprisingly decent priority) and leads to knockdowns that you can follow. You guys seem to just use a bunch of simple approaches over and over and don't really mix it up enough.
Up tilt is also very good against approaches. And in combos. After 40% or so, up tilt is better than up air for combos (when platforms aren't involved; when they are it's closer). You guys should use up tilt more. It's also very good against the illusion recovery that you both kept getting hit by.
I'd suggest shine OOS but neither of you guys seem to pressure much with aerials so I dunno.
tl;dr you guys don't really do much except up smash and run around with aerial shine, shines, and defensive bair sometimes. You guys mess up a lot. Don't mess up so much.
.
You guys need a lot more control over your characters. There's a ton of botched movement and missed follows because of it. I'm not actually sure what you guys are going for a lot of the time. It should be clear what you're doing when you hit someone in a Fox ditto.
At super low percents I don't usually like using bair to follow platforms that high (it's sometimes good, but not in any of the situations you used it in). I would seriously recommend trying to up air until like 30 just because it'll actually do something you can follow directly if you hit it. Other stuff that's sometimes good includes drill grab and waveland > up tilt / grab (I don't think either of you used either of those; they're really good).
Edgeguarding was generally bad or botched in some way, but the recovery decisions were equally bad or botched in some way. I think most kills were just moves that were bad DI'd at like 120% or so and then no edgeguard was required. On that note, proper survival DI vs bairs, f-smashes, etc. requires you to hold more up than in. The stick should be at an 80 or 100 degree angle or so (depending on which way you're getting hit).
After you hit this up air, you should up tilt or SHFFL something. Even if you hit that bair, you wouldn't be able to follow because he'd probably grab the edge or recover before you're out of your FJ.
You guys shine each other off the ground way too much for the tech chase. Just up tilt. Or down tilt. Or up smash. Or... something that actually leads to something. Shine obviously does lead to stuff but a lot of these situations have easier follows that automatically lead to better stuff, and doesn't require you to tech chase (or leads to a better tech chase; positioning your opponent by hitting them with specific moves is very useful).
You guys should try using dash attack more. After about 40% it's actually a very good way of stuffing or trading with a lot of his aerial approaches (surprisingly decent priority) and leads to knockdowns that you can follow. You guys seem to just use a bunch of simple approaches over and over and don't really mix it up enough.
Up tilt is also very good against approaches. And in combos. After 40% or so, up tilt is better than up air for combos (when platforms aren't involved; when they are it's closer). You guys should use up tilt more. It's also very good against the illusion recovery that you both kept getting hit by.
I'd suggest shine OOS but neither of you guys seem to pressure much with aerials so I dunno.
tl;dr you guys don't really do much except up smash and run around with aerial shine, shines, and defensive bair sometimes. You guys mess up a lot. Don't mess up so much.
.
Winston
Smash Master
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Winston your Marth is so ****ing weird.
You need to either counter less or be more accurate with your onstage counters. Whichever comes first.
I'll watch the Marth vs Fox matches more seriously later but, like, the biggest problem Wenbo is having mostly revolves around his decision making regarding what to do after landing a shine. He hit a lot of... up smashes. Up throw is strictly better for a long percent range (unless the opponent is by the edge). He needs to up throw more and do better combos from up throw.
Dash dance up smash is hideously difficult to land on retreating Marth because of how much it stops momentum. I'd recommend... a lot of other stuff before dash dance up smash. Grab, nair, dair, even dash attack if they're jumping a lot because it sneaks under a lot of aerials (they also need to be above 50% or so).
He also kills himself a ton.
I dunno it looks like you guys are playing kind of bad (or at least Wenbo does) so I'm not sure how to comment on it.
.
You need to either counter less or be more accurate with your onstage counters. Whichever comes first.
I'll watch the Marth vs Fox matches more seriously later but, like, the biggest problem Wenbo is having mostly revolves around his decision making regarding what to do after landing a shine. He hit a lot of... up smashes. Up throw is strictly better for a long percent range (unless the opponent is by the edge). He needs to up throw more and do better combos from up throw.
Dash dance up smash is hideously difficult to land on retreating Marth because of how much it stops momentum. I'd recommend... a lot of other stuff before dash dance up smash. Grab, nair, dair, even dash attack if they're jumping a lot because it sneaks under a lot of aerials (they also need to be above 50% or so).
He also kills himself a ton.
I dunno it looks like you guys are playing kind of bad (or at least Wenbo does) so I'm not sure how to comment on it.
.
Winston
Smash Master
Haha... sorry? thanks? idk which
edit: I thought I only used counter twice; once out of a ledgehop predicting an attack (which might have worked but he accidentally pivot ftilted, not quite sure) and once in the air at ko percent high above him. cause I had no idea what to do to get down and I thought I might as well gamble.
Both were situations (getting off the edge and getting down from the air) that I don't know how to handle very well as Marth
edit: I thought I only used counter twice; once out of a ledgehop predicting an attack (which might have worked but he accidentally pivot ftilted, not quite sure) and once in the air at ko percent high above him. cause I had no idea what to do to get down and I thought I might as well gamble.
Both were situations (getting off the edge and getting down from the air) that I don't know how to handle very well as Marth
- Joined
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F-tilt edge guards for the win. =)
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It's neither good nor bad. It just means it's weird.
It might have been less than I thought but they happened in close proximity so maybe it felt like you were doing it more than you were.
I'll look at the matches more seriously later.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Waveshine grab is so not tight 
although I guess not being efficient is also not tight <_<
As for killing myself it just means I'm not at the point where I get flawless ledgedashes every time, but I think I hit enough that making them fear the ledge is worth it and I do think I pull off pretty sick ledgedashes more than I kill myself (even though I have less lives than ledgedash attempts haha...) so that's something that I don't plan on changing other than just getting better at ledgedashing
The other half of killing myself is missing the jump input when I ledgehop Bair
I'll keep move selection vs retreating Marth in mind, although there are times that I'm aware of where I make some real bad approaching Nairs
Also I snap sidestep / uptilt a little too much
Heh
*edit*
Oh <_< the random Upsmashes are me trying to read Nairs and failing
I don't know the timing to beat that move so I've been trying to use Upsmash with ... limited success
I think the most success I have is going for DD -> grab but that seems to depend on if they hit the autocancel or not
although I guess not being efficient is also not tight <_<As for killing myself it just means I'm not at the point where I get flawless ledgedashes every time, but I think I hit enough that making them fear the ledge is worth it and I do think I pull off pretty sick ledgedashes more than I kill myself (even though I have less lives than ledgedash attempts haha...) so that's something that I don't plan on changing other than just getting better at ledgedashing
The other half of killing myself is missing the jump input when I ledgehop Bair
I'll keep move selection vs retreating Marth in mind, although there are times that I'm aware of where I make some real bad approaching Nairs
Also I snap sidestep / uptilt a little too much
Heh
*edit*
Oh <_< the random Upsmashes are me trying to read Nairs and failing
I don't know the timing to beat that move so I've been trying to use Upsmash with ... limited success
I think the most success I have is going for DD -> grab but that seems to depend on if they hit the autocancel or not
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If you wanna be tight but efficient, beg and plead for the Marth to not CC and then shine > nair > stuff.
edit: Or play Falco.
.
edit: Or play Falco.
.
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Sometimes I try that xD
I guess I'll just grab ... I'm not quite fast enough to get waveshine Nair to work every time
I guess I'll just grab ... I'm not quite fast enough to get waveshine Nair to work every time
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Waveshine nair is easier than waveshine u-smash in my experience.
But yeah, grab and proper grab follows are the best vs Marth.
But yeah, grab and proper grab follows are the best vs Marth.
- Joined
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Yeah, I normally do waveshine -> grab unless they're approaching a ledge, and in that case I usually do waveshine -> nair.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
does waveshine Dtilt work?
Winston
Smash Master
Not against Marth I think, unless they don't DI away + you get a really good wd. Not being able to run and do it hurts its range too much
plus it wouldn't even be better than grab basically ever
plus it wouldn't even be better than grab basically ever
sanchaz
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2010
- Messages
- 1,614
kirbykaze: I read your long *** comment on top and took some notes as well, just like to say thank you, even though it wasn't directed at me
I thought I was the only one that thought foxes up tilt is broken. combo use, I like to think of it as an anti-air, stop's approaches, did I say combo use???
I will be using up tilt against fast faller's for massive damage, at 0% up throw, uptilt, regrab, up-smash to.....more moves. at 25-30% up-throw up-tilt four times (seriously) to grab/back air, edgeguard. also is it just me, or does no one tech up-tilts, lol.
I just have questions for ya pretty please: can I shine oos against falco/fox??? two: does it take practice to be able to do it on a consistent basis. please reply back
I thought I was the only one that thought foxes up tilt is broken. combo use, I like to think of it as an anti-air, stop's approaches, did I say combo use???
I will be using up tilt against fast faller's for massive damage, at 0% up throw, uptilt, regrab, up-smash to.....more moves. at 25-30% up-throw up-tilt four times (seriously) to grab/back air, edgeguard. also is it just me, or does no one tech up-tilts, lol.
I just have questions for ya pretty please: can I shine oos against falco/fox??? two: does it take practice to be able to do it on a consistent basis. please reply back
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1) Yes.
2) Yes.
2) Yes.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
What kind of DI would be required for that to work I wonder...
I just like up tilt during throw combos after like 30. Prior to that I feel up smash, uair, or the cg is better.
Crooked Crow
drank from lakes of sorrow
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2007
- Messages
- 2,247
Thanks! That was great critique.
I noticed upon watching it, the sheer lack of UpTilt and Grab > UpThrow> UpAir, which I usually do all the time because it's really good, especially against another Fox.
Izek is always working, and I just moved back from locations all over Ontario, so we'll work on that rust. I also didn't laser enough and force approaches.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Laser blows **** in dittos
If you want to force approaches just wait longer than them w/ movement camp
If you want to force approaches just wait longer than them w/ movement camp
Fortress | Sveet
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KK this doesn't happen very often but i gotta say ur wrong. lasers are the ****, i don't give a **** who you are against
Fortress | Sveet
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crush
Smash Master
sveet ur a loser
Not necessarily, lasers works well while platform camping in dittos.
Especially on Dreamland.
Fortress | Sveet
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@crush im having deja vu.... afk GSTL
@erasor. i think you are actually agreeing with me....
@erasor. i think you are actually agreeing with me....
JPOBS
Smash Hero
yea but it would be more ballin
crush
Smash Master
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
But then it looks like Brawl
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Lasers aren't very good in Fox dittos. I probably exaggerated but like... they're pretty punishable. You're dealing with Fox. You know... the guy that everyone complains about having super ridiculous speed and can get through anything super easily at will? Committing a third of a second to jumping and doing 1-3% seems less good than... moving around. And staying spaced.
Platform camping in dittos with lasers is a horrible idea.
Winston
Smash Master
Lasers are pretty bad vs. Falcon also
both those characters (fox and falcon) are just as fast as you and their expected reward off a solid hit is like ~50%
both those characters (fox and falcon) are just as fast as you and their expected reward off a solid hit is like ~50%