Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Winston]

I actually had no idea what you meant by F/F/J/S because J was there and M wasn't

I've been too conditioned by the Marth boards ringers...

 

[Niko45]

Overshooting SH nair is an amazing approach for Marth. Just watch PP.

@Diakonos straight up approaching with grab is also surprisingly good

 

[crush]

Lol @ people actually following the tier list

 

[Sinji]

Overshooting SH nair is an amazing approach for Marth. Just watch PP.

But PP said that he gets away with it a lot. It's not a healthy approach.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Depends on how you use it

Just like(most) anything else lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

In SSBM, approaching with anything* is possible!















*conditioning dependent. not everything may be possible.

 

[Strong Badam]

dat falcon punch approach.

 

[crush]

DI dependant

 

[KirbyKaze]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13398041#post13398041

Any pro Foxes want to lend a hand?

There are a bunch of you and while I could just grab people from my own region I guess (raynex/unknown) I'm really hoping this could integrate influences from a variety of regions. Everyone has something to offer.

PM me if you would like to participate.

 

[Divinokage]

In SSBM, approaching with anything* is possible!















*conditioning dependent. not everything may be possible.

Did you really think I would not notice you saying anything is possible? Infinite potential!!!!!!

 

[unknown522]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13398041#post13398041

Any pro Foxes want to lend a hand?

There are a bunch of you and while I could just grab people from my own region I guess (raynex/unknown) I'm really hoping this could integrate influences from a variety of regions. Everyone has something to offer.

PM me if you would like to participate.

we already discussed it.

Come on foxes, we got this

 

[Winston]

Overshooting SH nair is an amazing approach for Marth. Just watch PP.

@Diakonos straight up approaching with grab is also surprisingly good

Approaching with grab is pretty sick, you can definitely get people into DD patterns where this works because they won't expect something so seemingly moronic

It seems to work very well as Falcon, especially.

 

[Cyrain]

If other top fox players start actually working on that project, I'd be glad to offer my 2 cents.

Random other question after watching vids of Mango's fox vs. Armada and I was interested in some frame data/info on fox shield pressuring peach. I'm horribly uninformed as far as the deep specifics of this game go, so help me out if you can. Simple things like SHFFLd nair-shine-drill-shine seems soo fast that peach wouldn't be able to nair out of it, but on a few occasions, armada chose to leave his shield and managed to punish him for it. Can anyone give me an amazing breakdown on how safe drillshine shield pressure is vs. peach? Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking for here, so you guys prolly won't either, but maybe someone will have something helpful for me

Also, I don't really have any good footage of my fox, but the second match if this video is my fox kind of fooling around in a friendly vs. Azen. I thought it was nifty so I figured I'd post it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-o-85Uc58E

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

who was the falco in game 1? O_O

 

[JPOBS]

cyrain, heres some stuff kirbykaze sent me a while ago about drilshining shields. this is assuming frame perfect techskill

This is pretty much exact frame data, I think, give or take a few mistakes.

Out of boredom I worked out his Dair exactly the other day. I would post it on the Fox boards but nobody would understand it so there's no point.

01 - Shine 1 hitlag
02 - hitlag
03 - hitlag
04 - hitlag
05 -
06 -
07 - Jump 1
08 - Jump 2
09 - Jump 3
10 - Dair 1
11 - Dair 2
12 - Dair 3
13 - Dair 4
14 - Dair 5 hitlag
15 - hitlag 2
16 - hitlag 3
17 - hitlag 4
18 - Dair 6
19 - Dair 7
20 - Dair 8 hitlag
21 - hitlag
22 - hitlag
23 - hitlag
24 - Dair 9
25 - Dair 10
26 - Dair 11 hitlag
27 - hitlag
28 - hitlag
29 - hitlag
30 - Dair 12
31 - Dair 13
32 - Dair 14 hitlag
33 - hitlag
34 - hitlag
35 - hitlag
36 - Dair 15
37 - L cancel 1
38 - L cancel 2
39 - L cancel 3
40 - L cancel 4
41 - L cancel 5
42 - L cancel 6
43 - L cancel 7
44 - L cancel 8
45 - L cancel 9

So in actuality if Fox was perfect he'd have 7 frames open in a perfect Dair Shine. Not 8. I forgot how hitlag interacts with the move and my calculations were off by a frame. Silly me -.-

Also with Nair Shine pressure I messed up. You slide 8 frames of stun into the chart I made. Not 7. Same reason -- forgot how hitlag interacts with the move's completion and stuff.

Bair really has 9 frames of stun, therefore, too.

To read this and understand the hitlag and shield stun stuff, refer to this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=2690028#post2690028

Perfect Fox air time is 15 frames. Dair hits on frames 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20. Courtesy of SuperDoodleMan.

In theory you could delay the Dair by one frame and then add one frame of stun to the end (you'd land the frame after the 14th frame of the Dair hit, which would yield a hitbox) and then have a split of 6 / 6 (not vulnerable to shield grab) but that would ludicrously impossible to actually try to do on command.

I'm not 100% on the frame data regarding peach's oos options, but i know that they are not to be ****ed with

 

[Sinji]

I understood the frame data. Thanks KK

Basically Peach has the oos option at the 16th frame (preferably nair, thats the only one I can think about).

So it means that peach must have enough shield to withstand the pressure before the 16th frame.

All we need now is to compare peaches frame data to foxes dair shine pressure to solve the puzzle.

 

[JPOBS]

no, she's still in shield stun on the 16th frame, because thats when the first dair hit is landing.

she can only do something before or after the dair. I'm not certain what her nair oos frame data is so i'll just leave it for someone else to say.

edit:oh u meant 16th frame after the jump, gotcha

 

[unknown522]

I'm pretty sure her n-air oos is 7 frames (4 for the jump, and 3 for the n-air).

I may be off by a frame or 2 though.

 

[Palpi]

So for nair/shine shield pressure peaches usually do the nair after the shine? and after the dair for dair/shine?

 

[JPOBS]

yea^ that generally seems to be whats happening.

 

[Palpi]

Good, I play peach so I need to know these things

 

[ShroudedOne]

Huh....I usually nair OoS after the shine on both accounts...maybe I'm doing it wrong...

Oh, snap. We have a 3 frame nair. I thought it was four...

:D

 

[crush]

I always just up-b or toad OOS as peach.

 

[Cyrain]

who was the falco in game 1? O_O

The falco is also me, though matches between Chillin and I are rarely so one sided. That was just a good match for me.

And thanks for the info guys.

 

[sanchaz]

how realiable is this: mango illusioned right into the marth's sword, airdodged, then manage to recover safely. It looks like a great technique to get on the stage against marth players, even if marth is on the tip of the stage. like fox/falco could airdodge on the ground, and then shine.

happens at 3:10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xof_rpg63XA

 

[Palpi]

It is better than having to recover again. I do this all of the time.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I didn't check if JPOBS's copy paste was correct. But this is copy-pasted from my updated thread that is better. So bleh.

01 Shine hitlag
02 hitlag
03 hitlag
04 hitlag
05
06
07 Jump start (1)
08 (2)
09 (3)
10 Airborne, Dair start (01)
11 (02)
12 (03)
13 (04)
14 (05) Dair hit ~ Stun 1 – 4 ~ All hitlag occurs here
15 (06) Stun – 5
16 (07) Stun – 6
17 (08) Dair hit ~ Stun 1 – 4 ~ All hitlag occurs here
18 (09) Stun – 5
19 (10) Stun – 6
20 (11) Dair hit ~ Stun 1 – 4 ~ All hitlag occurs here
21 (12) Stun – 5
22 (13) Stun – 6
23 (14) Dair hit ~ Stun 1 – 4 ~ All hitlag occurs here
24 (15) Stun – 5
25 Land, L-cancel (1) Stun – 6
26 (2) Stun – 7
27 (3)
28 (4)
29 (5)
30 (6)
31 (7)
32 (8)
33 (9)
34 Shine

All of this assumes full power on your moves.

Peach Nair OOS is frame 8. Her jump startup is 6, but she's airborne frame 6 so she starts Nair on that frame and then takes 2 more to get a hitbox. Umbrella (trivia!) is frame 6 (I think).

So basically, Fox full power Dair gives him a -7 or -6 or so, which means it's technically possible to not be Naired. Unfortunately, this assumes perfection and full power Dair (which is not reasonable). So, like a lot of frame-specific things in our silly, silly game... it works sometimes.

Did I mention our mechanics can actually be a turn off when you sit down and think about them? How annoying it must be to hear it's a reasonable idea but it only "kind of" works.

 

[crush]

so peaches up-b OOS is faster than nair OOS?

 

[Riddlebox]

so peaches up-b OOS is faster than nair OOS?

6 is, in fact, a lower number than 8.

KK posting lol

I'm so drunk

Also, it's 7 for parasol oos (unless sdm's stuff is wrong) but yeah it's technically still faster

this helps to explain why it's so underused though

same speed as shield grab, no jump if hit out of it, and mediocre hitbox makes it kind of undesirable

invincibility on some frame is nice i guess

 

[Sinji]

so peaches up-b OOS is faster than nair OOS?

yea. its faster.

Similar to the topic. Does Marth's Upb oos require less frames then peaches upb oos when being shield pressured? Not sure about the hitlag frame components when marth is getting pressured.

 

[Strong Badam]

i got 2nd at a tourney today and used fox in grand finals... i was so mad that the video got overwritten cuz i was gonna post them up for critique. was playing so well today. ;_;

Peach Nair OOS is frame 8. Her jump startup is 6, but she's airborne frame 6 so she starts Nair on that frame and then takes 2 more to get a hitbox. Umbrella (trivia!) is frame 6 (I think).

airborne on frame 6 means jump startup is 5 frames.
if you're up-bing out of shield you also have to add 1 frame for the jump cancel.

sinji: marth's is 6 frames (1 frame jump cancel 5 frames for hitbox) but he has invincibility frame 5. so 1 frame faster.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Question: When you say that one frame has to be added for the jump cancel when up B'ing, Strong Bad, what is being jump cancelled? Is it the shield? And if so, then wouldn't you have to add one frame for anything done out of shield?

 

[unknown522]

just so you guys know: Peach and co are supposed to n-air oos after fox's shine (unless he does a high n-air/b-air on the shield.)

 

[Strong Badam]

Question: When you say that one frame has to be added for the jump cancel when up B'ing, Strong Bad, what is being jump cancelled? Is it the shield? And if so, then wouldn't you have to add one frame for anything done out of shield?

there's nothing in the shield coding that allows you to just upsmash or up-b directly from shield; evidence of this is in Brawl, where if you turn tap jump off you can't up-b out of shield traditionally. you have to jump out of shield and then perform your up-b or upsmash at some point during your jumpsquat, so anywhere from 1 frame to like 7 for bowser if it's delayed as much as possible is spent on this transition to allow up-b or upsmash.

in simple terms, yes, it's the shield being jump cancelled. you only have to add 1 frame for up-b or up-smash, as grab, roll, and spotdodge are done directly from shield.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The falco is also me, though matches between Chillin and I are rarely so one sided. That was just a good match for me.

And thanks for the info guys.

Well that first game was really good. Havent seen an inspirational falco in a while

 

[KirbyKaze]

airborne on frame 6 means jump startup is 5 frames.
if you're up-bing out of shield you also have to add 1 frame for the jump cancel.

sinji: marth's is 6 frames (1 frame jump cancel 5 frames for hitbox) but he has invincibility frame 5. so 1 frame faster.

See Riddlebox's post that I made

I know all this

 

[JPOBS]

i got 2nd at a tourney today and used fox in grand finals... i was so mad that the video got overwritten cuz i was gonna post them up for critique. was playing so well today. ;_;

typical low tier main:

claims to main bad characters
plays fox when it counts

 

[Strong Badam]

at locals where it can actually make a difference XD
at tourneys that matter (60+, good players are there) I'm not going to win regardless of which character I use so I go DK because I enjoy using him more =)
at least I'm not like the falcon players that complain about how bad he apparently is.

KK: I'm dumb, ignore me. & have been awake for 28 hrs :D

 

[ShroudedOne]

So then, you also need to "jump cancel" the shield to aerial OoS, right?

 

[Winston]

Sure, if that's what you want to call jumping out of shield xD

edit: this discussion makes me wonder, why did they decide to make jc grabs? jc usmash/up B seems like a necessity because of tap jump, but the game works fine without jc grab afaik. Did they really feel like adding a feature that let a player add an extra input to the action in return for (for most characters) a better grab out of dash?

edit2: I guess boost grabbing is an even stranger design choice