Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[voorhese]

i am southpawpwnage

 

[ruhtraeel]

i am southpawpwnage

oh hi

I thought you were someone from another video game

I know a lot of Jasons

not the horror kind though


BTW people should see this guy named wak's TAS videos

He's got a lot of sick ones

 

[RaynEX]

I think I have a apology to make.

Sorry RaynEX for copying and pasting your post and not acknowledging your post.

To be honest I forgot to acknowledge your post after im done with that post. and to be honest your my favourite fox player.

I hope I could be more professional in the near future.

So yea im sorry.

It's all good. We all had a good laugh. Best part was when I read it, agreed with it entirely, then realized they were my own words

I suspected it was the case all along that he wasn't actually attempting to pass off Raynex's advice as his own and just forgot to credit Raynex, but I thought it'd be funnier if I helped to play it up LOL >_>

In the past I might have agreed with you, but this IS the internet. People can and will do anything lol. I actually had some beef with this brawl player when the game first came out...I made this video with a few new techs and was super excited. Then the guy goes and puts them in a written guide, renames them, and credits himself for the discoveries. Oh lawd!

 

[mayhem_]

I have huge problem while playing fox nowdays. I can't think anything while I am playing, I am just kinda stuck on spamming techskill stuff and get punished for that a lot. Any advice how to work on that? I have realized that when I am camping I can think what I will do next, but usually I just rush in and do good as long as I am like shieldpressuring or comboing them (cpu practice pays off here ), but when they get a little breathing room I get punished hard for just rushing in like a maniac :D So should I just camp it out or what?

Thanks for any advice

 

[RaynEX]

I have huge problem while playing fox nowdays. I can't think anything while I am playing, I am just kinda stuck on spamming techskill stuff and get punished for that a lot. Any advice how to work on that? I have realized that when I am camping I can think what I will do next, but usually I just rush in and do good as long as I am like shieldpressuring or comboing them (cpu practice pays off here ), but when they get a little breathing room I get punished hard for just rushing in like a maniac :D So should I just camp it out or what?

Thanks for any advice

Lets see if we can help you think outside the box!

When thinking of what to try next, its better if you don't limit your decisions to only "rush in now" or "camp now". Don't get me wrong, you should definitely be thinking about matches in those terms, but there's more to it. Reducing your playstyle to simple decisions like that only hinders how adaptive and creative you can be when thinking on the fly. To truly escape the stereotype of a technical no-think Fox, imo, it all starts with broadening your view on decision-making. I still think many players don't understand how many options you REALLY have in Melee. This goes for attacking/defending, movement, edge-guarding... you name it. Mango is a great example of how technical play fused with a deep understanding of melee's possibilities = success. Here are some key things to remember:


-*Use fundamental match-up knowledge to help you decide whether you want to play aggressively or defensively in a match. This is a good starting point.

(Remember, just because camping/rushing in a match-up is good doesn't mean you can't deviate from the plan. If your rushdown starts working against an opponent you "should" be camping (ex. Jiggs), don't hesitate, keep going! Thinking defensively in match-ups like that is great, but you can miss key opportunities to gain offensive momentum if you become too passive.)

-*There are a variety of ways to approach or escape an opponent, all of which are limited by your own technical ability and creativity.

(Platforms are the first thing that come to mind right? Kirbykaze once described stage layout to me in terms of "levels". There are 3 "levels": flatland, the 1st set of platforms, and topmost one. Use all of them to vary your approach! Sometimes, mental visualizing paths and carving a route in and out of a situation really helps. Put that techskill to use and try to find creative ways to either maintain or escape pressure. You can DD underneath a platform to shield yourself from opponents above, and punish all sorts of things. Or use one to set up a ghetto bair wall (ala PC Chris edge-guards), so you can stop your opponent from gaining ground. Offensively, you can mix it up in so many ways. ESPECIALLY If your opponent knows that you love to jump onto them. Use platform-based strategies to bait responses from defensive opponents and force an opening, or to escape overly aggressive opponents for keep-away purposes.)

-*Don't ever be afraid to switch styles and change your gameplan during match. IMO this is easily one of Fox's main strengths, and speaks to his versatility as a character.

(Running onto platforms and forcing the opponent to play YOUR game is a great idea if you're feeling flustered. In their feeble attempts to jump up and swat at you, sneaking in bairs/nairs as you run off platforms is cake. Use your speed and techskill to your advantage and play the hit and run game while they're stuck in (arguably) the most exploitable state the game: airborne. If you decide to take it to the ground, feel out your opponent with a good mixture of defensive DDing and nair/grab overshoots to quickly assess the situation and decide what course of action you want to take this match.)


I'll be sure to post (less platform-related) advice tomorrow...super tired right now lol

Good luck!

 

[ShroudedOne]

Raynex, you actually mentioned something in here that I can think about a little more. As a Fox, I'm trying to improve my on-platform game, because I'm really uncomfortable on them. Besides uthrow > tech chase upsmash, or tech chase grab, if I'm on a platform, I really feel out of place, and platforms are a Fox's best friend.

How can I get more comfortable on platforms?

 

[Fried Ice Cream]

How can I get more comfortable on platforms?

Fight against a lot of Peach.

 

[EWC]

Just practice moving on them fast. Get good at wavelands, shine wavelands, maybe edgecancels if you wanna be fancy.

 

[Sinji]

How can I get more comfortable on platforms?

Like what FIC said, practice against peach but most importantly practice against jigglypuff.

Lets say for instance Jiggs is approaching you with a bair and then attempts to grab you on the platform, you can drop off then use your second jump to surface back onto the platform and usmash or grab. This vid shows a lot of examples of platform camping.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrnHb8dFwR4

 

[mayhem_]

Thank you very much RaynEX wasn't really expecting such a comprehensive post!

I can come up with some crazy combos and surprising approaches in friendlies, but in tournaments I just tend to restrict myself from some options (risky/unorthodox) for really no reason at all and I always realise that between stocks, but I just can't play "freely". I keep repeating same stuff over and over again and if it doesn't work I usually start to camp and when I stop camping I start to do same stupid stuff again >_>. And if I don't get hits in I get very frustrated even if I don't get hit so I pretty much force situations where I either get a hit in or get hit. Also if I get gimped or SD I just lose it. I will rush in like a brainless gorilla and keep doing so as long as I get a stock off so I feel like situation is back at where it was before the gimp or SD.

These problems are pretty much for my fox only. I used to play like 6 characters before and now that I have decided to focus on my fox and my techskill has really went through the roof compared to before, I just choke so hard very often and I lose all the control of the match. Usually if I lose the control of the match only way for me to recover from that is if I get like 0->death in.

 

[username12345678]

so uh, how does illusion stalling work? like how do i execute it?

 

[Redd]

You mean just spamming illusion on the ledge?

I just hold in on the control stick and press the opposite on the c-stick, then hit side b.

It's pretty ez with Fox.. falco, that's another story.

 

[voorhese]

lol i didnt even think of using the cstick. i just press back then forward b over and over

 

[Palpi]

With Falco I use c stick. Fox you don't need to.

 

[KirbyKaze]

One of Fox's most interesting things as a character comes from the way he makes people fight in a relatively linear way to achieve their goals. What people want to hit on him is usually extremely obvious (grab). Obviously other moves enter the equation, though, because you can be grabbed as a result of being hit by other moves. However, grab's startup time and range limitations put some restrictions on what can be used to set it up.

Understanding these sorts of things enables you to melt babies with at least 11% more efficiency.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

KK that was both out of the blue and much appreciated. Can i hear more?

 

[ZeldaFreak0309]

KK: I'd like to hear more too! The exception to that is Falco, but just replace grab with shine, right?

 

[Sinji]

KK: Good stuff.

I would like to hear that aspect in terms of the Marth match up please.

 

[Palpi]

Bull**** post by, KK. Enough **** riding.

 

[crush]

Have y'all seen this Matt07 guy? He's a beast with like every character.

 

[JPOBS]

He's the guy that does the HRC NBA's and various other single player games right?

ya he's beast.

 

[crush]

He's the guy that does the HRC NBA's and various other single player games right?

ya he's beast.

Lol I think you're thinking of marth1 or something.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I find ironically enough Marth is one of the characters I find that whole "you know what they want to hit" least applicable to, at least at low percents. This is mainly because Marth's grab is so big and he has so many illegitimate setups for it. Because Marth's grab has the range of a normal ground move, so he doesn't really need to set it up in the same way that Fox has to set his grab up with shine, dair, nair, etc.

I don't really feel like going through it entirely but you guys can probably figure out what I mean. Their attack and movement pattern usually reflects a certain style of behavior or strategy they're trying to employ to get their hit on Fox. With characters like Peach, the amount of options an attacking player has is inherently limited by the number of things that work on Peach in the neutral and based on her percent and stuff (otherwise you eat nairs, d-smashes, etc). Fox doesn't destroy strategies by being able to immediately nair counterattack at low percents, but the disproportionate reward from landing a few specific moves on him really streamlines anti-Fox strategies in a (generally) predictable way.

Now let's get back to your regularly scheduled programming that won't teach you anything useful. How does one waveshine backwards, and is shine > turn around bair a good approach vs Mario?

 

[ShroudedOne]

I must be the only one who didn't understand KirbyKaze's posts.

 

[omgwtfToph]

He's saying that much of the cast's best (and in the case of low tiers, only real) way to deal with Fox is by landing a grab, so as a Fox player you gain an advantage by simply fighting with this knowledge of your opponent's plan in mind.

Then he said it's harder to do this against Marth, because even though you pretty much know what Marth wants to do to you, Marth's grab range is so long and his ways to land a grab so numerous that the whole thing is kind of nullified.

 

[Pogogo]

Something that everyone knows except for me (in fact im sure people have told me this before I just never got it). To multishine u need to press down b and then wait and press y and b at the same time with ur flat thumb (the timing being the same as jump cancel grab or jump cancel up smash). So its two actions, virtually, and not three. No rush to get to y really but immedeatly after there has to be a b. One of those things that if u are good enough to make use of it u already knew that but I was blissfully unaware until this afternoon even though Ive seen multiple tutorials and explanations.

Also this y and b flat thumb method, which i realize I have definitely read somewhere, is very useful for shine out of shield

 

[crush]

Too bad my thumbs not big enough D:

 

[voorhese]

or u can just man the **** up and get good at being precise and fast at the same time.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Something that everyone knows except for me (in fact im sure people have told me this before I just never got it). To multishine u need to press down b and then wait and press y and b at the same time with ur flat thumb (the timing being the same as jump cancel grab or jump cancel up smash). So its two actions, virtually, and not three. No rush to get to y really but immedeatly after there has to be a b. One of those things that if u are good enough to make use of it u already knew that but I was blissfully unaware until this afternoon even though Ive seen multiple tutorials and explanations.

Also this y and b flat thumb method, which i realize I have definitely read somewhere, is very useful for shine out of shield

this doesnt sound like the way you should do it lol. and you def dont press y and b at the same time.

press B, lift your thumb and bring it over to y, then slide from y to b, lift back over to y, etc. this is the way shiz taught me to do it and its pretty easy once you get the timing down. dont worry about pressing A when doing this, it wont do anything.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Then he said it's harder to do this against Marth, because even though you pretty much know what Marth wants to do to you, Marth's grab range is so long and his ways to land a grab so numerous that the whole thing is kind of nullified.

Marth is a cruel creature.

 

[crush]

or u can just man the **** up and get good at being precise and fast at the same time.

That's what I did lol. I use up on the control stick to multishine. I can't really do it the other way.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I wanna see a video of someone multishining with the control stick to jump. It seems like such a ridiculous method lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i thought thats what SW or lovage did

 

[Silent Wolf]

im pretty sure lovage can do advancing turn around multishines with the stick, as seen in revolution.

 

[Sinji]

It seems like such a ridiculous method lol.

Or that its difficult for some. It's not really ridiculous lol. It depends on what you use to jump.

 

[Palpi]

I double shine with control stick. Granted...I don't do it often.

 

[sanchaz]

.......I come here for fox advice, and I see comments about multi-shining. URGH!

 

[Crooked Crow]

.......I come here for fox advice, and I see comments about multi-shining. URGH!

Welcome to the Fox boards.

 

[Sinji]

Scrolling back to the last page, this is my conclusion for the Marth discussion.



Play more defensive against him.

Use lasers to force him to approach

He only has 3 options when it comes to approaching (pretty much)

Dash attack (risky)
D-tilt
Grab


Once you are inside of him don´t let him breathe at all

If you want to play a bit more aggressive wait for the fairs but still have enough space so he can´t punish you

 

[PK Webb]

Sinji he has fair nair and a approach u tilt for the creative marths I like going aggro for the most part as long as ur techskill holds up