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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
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Mos Eisley
-Grab > uair works even at higher percents, b/c a lot of samuses will nair as soon as they can. At lower percent, a single jump gets you perfect spacing for an uair.
upthrow upair doesnt work at all vs samus. I've known this for a long time just from reading the boards but i still tried it today and didnt land a single one.

thats another thing, i dont know what throw to use vs samus when i get a grab. upthrow is useless and dthrow can lead to tech chases but if they dont tech then you have to anticipate the no tech in order to punish effectively. what throw do you guys use?

also whats so bad about FD?

I've done write ups on the samus matchup and so have better players than me. check ckit's guide or if the information isn't very good use the search feature inside this thread.
im looking for stuff specifically pertaining to Hugs style of samus lots of wd camping and b-up oos.

i'll check it out though
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
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17,679
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Spiral Mountain
Pick Marth or Sheik.

All HugS has said about the matchup for reverse engineering or whatever is that Lovage and Lucky are very good at it when they have good tech skill because they can overwhelm Samus and create openings because Shine and Fox's general existence (when played fast against a relatively trashy character) does that for free.

The unfortunate truth of the matter is, however, you need to have very, very strong execution all the time for that kind of playstyle to really work against a character like Samus because errors will get you mauled and the idea behind overwhelming someone is that there's a terrifying consistency to it (IMHO). If you don't scare them into doing stupid things, the style's failing. If they feel they can just wait in a disadvantaged position for you to fail and then take the free stock then that's really bad. This is enhanced by Samus's generally long lifespan.

Of course if you ask Watty he'll just say shoot lasers and run away so what the hell do I know.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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also, while on the topic of peach vs fox

what do i do about Bair->dsmash at low percents. bairs hitbox comes out pretty quick, and its low knockback combos pretty auto into dsmash, and add to that the fact that it float cancelled and it was causing me some troubles.

anyone else experience this/have a bonafide answer to it?
i guess i could just sheild both but then i fall victim to stupid mixups like bair->grab lol
 
Joined
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the west
also, while on the topic of peach vs fox

what do i do about Bair->dsmash at low percents. bairs hitbox comes out pretty quick, and its low knockback combos pretty auto into dsmash, and add to that the fact that it float cancelled and it was causing me some troubles.

anyone else experience this/have a bonafide answer to it?
i guess i could just sheild both but then i fall victim to stupid mixups like bair->grab lol
just try not to let yourself get into that position. if you could get something our of shield, dair would be best, but i dont think youd be able to if they time it right. if it happens, just shield both if you can and play campy until your shield can take it again. but like i said, just try not to get into that position.
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
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Central IL
sdi the bair away or tech the dsmash
you should get in the mindset to hit r/l+a direction immidiately when you take a low % bair to option select out of the dsmash
and if they dont dsmash roll or something
 

GOD!

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 30, 2008
Messages
778
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Rome, GA
upthrow upair doesnt work at all vs samus. I've known this for a long time just from reading the boards but i still tried it today and didnt land a single one.

thats another thing, i dont know what throw to use vs samus when i get a grab. upthrow is useless and dthrow can lead to tech chases but if they dont tech then you have to anticipate the no tech in order to punish effectively. what throw do you guys use?

also whats so bad about FD?
Except her second jump is slow and her only move that hits down well is nair. Why don't you just try it in the match instead of reading it on the boards? It's not a true combo but it worked for me, maybe the samus I played was a scrub (except he wasn't bad, he had really good spacing and knew when to CC and when not too). He djed and naired and I still hit him and killed him. More times he didn't get the dj off in time and he ate an uair.

If you're on a platform, dthrow.

FD is bad imo cause:
-missiles suck
-platforms are good for you
-she can move really well here
-there are better options where her recovery is not as good (stadium which is really good for you, BF, yoshis)

If you watch hugs play, he will push you towards the edge. In every samus fox match that the fox doesn't end up charging and pushing his own offense, samus will slowly push fox towards the edge. If this happens on FD, you have nowhere to go. Just my opinion but I already said I'm a total noob. But if you watch vids, you'll see this happen.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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I think it's like 10x harder to get a follow if they DI the throw behind Fox because it takes him a year to recover out of the throw because of Samus being fat.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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its literally impossible to combo upthrow into upair vs samus.

and its not even like the pseudo combo like vs peach where she literally cant do anything so you get her anyway, Samus is heavy as balls and it takes forever to get out of the throw animation, and samus can do pretty much anything. they dont even have to DI it any specific way.

basically wat KK said.
 

trahhSTEEZY

Smash Champion
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Jul 24, 2007
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vegas baby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bixUm0eVA3k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYpT3Q9WZqI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER76tCs2wWM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RgOKAU6gYI

I'm aware the value of these first 3 matches, they aren't very good. Friend of mine is trying to learn the game more, and I just need practice on the falco matchup. Friend was just around at the time and down to record.

The last one is marth. I'd really appreciate some advice on these, i'm sure you guys can still throw some advice for me regardless.
 

GOD!

Smash Ace
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I know I've seen all of it before and I thought it was all in here somewhere.
But I need frame data.
There is some in ckit's guide but it doesn't contain things like shieldstun and hitstun for each attack.
 

Lovage

Smash Hero
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i wrote a buncha stuff about samus a few months ago in this thread

if u need help in the matchup you should find it
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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i have some more earlier in this thread but i'd like to write a bit more about the samus matchup after playing hugs for like 15 hours this weekend.


general

overall, this is not one of fox's best matchups, i think it's even or very slightly in fox's favor. the advantage you all have is she's one of the least represented characters and there are very few players who really use her at a top level.


shield pressure and her up+b

it's possible to attack samus' shield but you have to be very very precise and clever. if you rush in like a noob you will eat an up+b every single time and possibly a dsmash if they land on a platform with you. your method of shield pressure should consist of hitting her with a well spaced nair or bair that hits LOW on their shield, and shining after. every samus has their comfort zone with up+b, so take note of how proficient they are with it, and shield pressure accordingly

if you did it correctly it's possible to bait out a whiffed up+b which can sometimes lead to a very damaging uair chain (it's commonplace to get 2-3 uairs at low-mid percent on samus.) be very aware though, shield pressure is NOT guaranteed, even if you do it nearly perfect, a good samus will be able to up+b you out of almost any unspaced attack.

baiting out up+b is a very important part of this matchup. you can do this by doing low aerials and shielding after, by nairing their shield and dashing away quickly, and by run-up shields.

edge guarding

edgeguarding IS viable, but i think most foxes don't know exactly what to do, because it's very difficult to pull off. basically, your first objective is to eliminate their grapple. one of the best ways to do this is to non-fastfalled weak bair off the stage and hit them right as they begin their grapple. if you get them, don't be fancy and try to shine after, just recover and get back to the edge ASAP. another way to get rid of their grapple is to refresh your ledge invincibility and attempt to shine them as they pull up to the edge. this is a bit harder and it depends on where they grapple'd the stage, so i prefer bairs.

once their grapple is out, they're forced to up+b. do NOT attempt to dsmash edge guard them. any samus worth their salt will sweetspot it, you will probably get hit by the end of the spin attack and get forced on the ground, or you will get fair'd -> dsmashed during your lag. low angled f-tilt is not a bad idea and is totally safe from punishment, but won't get you a kill.

what you want to do is combine the invincibility you get from grabbing the ledge with the bit of invincibility you get from standing up from the edge, and usmash (you can walk forward and dsmash if they're not at kill percent) them when they touch the ground. i guess it's similar to edgeguarding sheik, but it's very tough and you need a lot of experience with it or else you'll get hit with spin attack and get forced on your back.

lasers

lasers are very good in this matchup, samus is very slow in the air and you can get easy free damage when she's recovering or coming down from an uair. even though samus is tall, i still suggest sticking to single lasers over double lasers. single lasers let you be more mobile and make it harder for her to catch you. i suggest dash dancing and using a single laser to bait out her wavedash ftilt, and fulljumping over her with bair to punish.

grabs

grabs aren't THAT bad. you won't combo from them at all, but they're a good mixup because samus relies on her up+b out of shield so much, it's pretty easy to catch her in shield with grabs and get like 6-14 damage. uthrow is decent because sometimes you can read their double jump and get a back air in, but don't rely on it too hard because it's easy to get nair'd. dthrow is decent, but her tech roll is super long and quick so it's very hard to tech chase usmash. if you can be creative with it and score extra hits be my guest, but it's a risk. fthrow is probably your best bet. it forces samus slightly in the air, so sometimes they come down right after with a nair, which you can grab or usmash oos.

general

your overall strategy consists of reading her WD's back, shielding ftilts, using lasers to manipulate her movement, and not getting *****. also, if you can get samus on a platform, use everything you can to keep her in her shield, she's completely useless on platforms and you can get very easy bairs if you make her make a dumb move up there.

stages

best stage: pokemon stadium
good stages: battlefield, yoshi's story
ok stage: fountain, fd
bad stage: dreamland
i assume this is it lovage. good stuff here

I also read in another samus related post by you to never ever side B for recovery because its incredibly easy to punish. i hadnt realized this before but you're right now that i think about it, sideB just gets wrecked.

also,while i was searching for this post, i realized this thread is a absolute treasure chest of information. i hadnt realized it cuz i guess we're mostly almost a part of it. but going back and reading the old conversations gave a lot of **** info on lots of stuff.
 

L__

Smash Master
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And what about when people lose said matchup?

"Oh, but I can look back and know my character should do better"

:(
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
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i kinda lol'd when the matches were described as being not gay, and the first two stocks are chain grab 0-deaths lol
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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Jun 13, 2007
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College Park, MD
Something I love to do to Marth, Falcon, Sheik and others is uthrow when under a platform -> FJ bair/nair -> run off platform -> dair -> waveshine -> grab -> uthrow -> uair. Not guaranteed, but it's pretty awesome-looking.
 
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Its usually better to do grab after the dair off the platform. They're almost always in the air and they'll be able to shield when they land. And if you do waveshine and hit them before they're on the ground they'll be able to do almost anything they want to you because they'll land before you can do anything.
 

Jimbo Slice

Smash Journeyman
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May 13, 2010
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Cornville, Midwest
What should I do against a marth that likes to wall me out with Fairs? Should I just stay back and laser until they approach? Should I camp dashdance?
 

iamthemicrowave

Smash Master
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Feb 7, 2006
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Purdue/Woodridge, IL
basically never approach marth when he is jumping, always just run away. he can throw out a fair or upair at the last second and that leads into many bad things...

just be more patient than him and wait till he spaces an aerial poorly(hes moving forward). also dont try to punish nairs cuz he can buffer roll or spotdoge and escape. wait for that forward tilt, up tilt, or fsmash and git r dun
 
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