Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
no nair. run, CC the fair, ****.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
CC'ing a fair doesn't always get you a punish.
unknown522
Some guy
there's no way in hell that ganon can counter or come even with fox. It's just that lots of players have no experience vs him (kage vs mango for example). If you watch kage play in east coast canada, he doesn't do as well. Ganon gets ***** by camping and is easily combo'd, but in a different way. He also has issues approaching.
Trust me, I beat kage when I have my controller, and they are not close (I lost the most recent set, due to SDs and not having my controller, but no one will care about that).
Raynex ***** him a lot as well.
I also beat tipman 3-1 in a $5 MM at ROM2. He beat me on rainbow cruise somehow.
I 4-stocked renth at pound 4 pools in game 2, SDs game 1 made it only a 2-stock. Raynex ***** Chaddd's ganon in pound 4 pools, then Chaddd went fox.
I've never played linguini in a real set yet, so I'm hoping to do that soon.
Just ban brinstar, and it's all good. I find yoshi's to be easiest, because they can't run away.
Fox is the easiest to make mistakes with.
lord karn
Smash Master
Easiness of execution does not change the matchup objectively, it just changes the matchup on the metagame level, which is completely relative to how much the good fox players actually mess up.
It's just a difference of language. Theoretically, the matchup sucks for ganon. In the metagame, maybe it's not as bad (but probably still bad).
It's just a difference of language. Theoretically, the matchup sucks for ganon. In the metagame, maybe it's not as bad (but probably still bad).
Kanelol
Smash Lord
kage canada #1
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Unknown, I thought Ganon wins on Yoshi's.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
first paragraph did you mean:
Ease of execution changes the matchup on a casual level, but doesn't change the matchup at the metagame level which assumes the fox is completely technically sound.
unknown522
Some guy
the theory is that ganon can catch characters that run away from him, since he can cover so much space, and kill you at really low percents. The problem that I find for ganon is that since a lot of his good moves are aerials, then it sets him up to get gimped easily, since the stage is so small. I'm personally good on that stage (except vs marth and maybe sheik), because I play too aggressive most of the time and I don't have to chase the opponent. For ganon, he has to play defensive in general, but there's not much space to set up his attacks there.
I personally think that ganon loses on every neutral though.
lord karn
Smash Master
Nah, the metagame level does not necessarily assume that a player is technically sound. It assumes that the player is on the level of the foxes actually defining foxes metagame. Even the best foxes still mess up sometimes, which helps ganon a lot. However, I would say that the foxes don't mess up enough that ganon really has much of a chance vs. him at all.
On the theoretical level (assuming both players don't mess up), fox ***** ganon.
joeplicate
Smash Master
mmm i'm still skeptical. vids??
Kanelol
Smash Lord
didn't someone just say you can't CC fair
unknown522
Some guy
you know that marth can call the CC and d-air -> grab at lower percents. On top of that, if they're not moving into fox, he can't punish at tipper range.
If its tippered I thought you couldn't. Or you would just be too far away to do anything about it
And fair has like no lag so you're going to be in front of marth and you both are getting out of lag at about the same time. There's no **** about it unless you get grabbed, which will probably happen.
Vids or it didn't happen
Edit: especially cause fair is one of the best low-percent setups to a grab anyway, I can easily see a marth reflexively grabbing after the fair. They also probably will know the timing of the grab after the fair.
And fair has like no lag so you're going to be in front of marth and you both are getting out of lag at about the same time. There's no **** about it unless you get grabbed, which will probably happen.
Vids or it didn't happen
Edit: especially cause fair is one of the best low-percent setups to a grab anyway, I can easily see a marth reflexively grabbing after the fair. They also probably will know the timing of the grab after the fair.
CalamityofCox
Smash Ace
i still cant get the hang of shine out of shield.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
doesnt marth's nair have less l-cancel lag than fair?
or is that only when auto cancelled? how does regular l-canceled nair compare to fair?
or is that only when auto cancelled? how does regular l-canceled nair compare to fair?
Kanelol
Smash Lord
Practice practice practice
then practice with falco
then practice some more
then practice with falco
then practice some more
joeplicate
Smash Master
use y+b
it's the same timing as JC shines, so if you get that down deliberately you'll be in good shape. practice against falcos, then do shine oos>waveshine on falcon and sheik
and yeah, personally i don't know if it's possible to cc marths fair and punish, but "baiting out fairs" as a staple of that matchup is something i never heard of =/
Daniel_the_Seraph
Smash Ace
How do you shine cancel usmash? I understnad the basic mechanics (shine, jc, usmash), but I can't conceive how to move my fingers fast enough to do it.
SuperRad
Smash Master
i do shine->up on joystick->c-stick
im not very good at it, and like 10% of the time i accidentally turn around usmash
it's all about practice, basically. if you're fast enough you can do it a ton of different ways, so just try it until you can get it down
im not very good at it, and like 10% of the time i accidentally turn around usmash
it's all about practice, basically. if you're fast enough you can do it a ton of different ways, so just try it until you can get it down
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Ganon has nowhere to move on Yoshis and therefore if you just put pressure on him he falls apart completely. All the good Ganons just camp even if they're falling behind massively in damage and try to cherry-pick mistakes with retreat aerial garbage into tech chases.
PB&J
Smash Hero
what unknown said- i agree with u 100 percent.. the community as a whole doesnt have alot of exp vs him and think its a close match up..and i agree about the yoshi's story idea too..ganon is good there but its fox from space ..he ***** there . when people realize how to fight him. he wont be a problem to top players ..especially mango.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
the thing about shining out of shield is that only part of the timing is the same as doing JC shines. i can do that with no trouble, but you also have to know when shieldstun is over, and you have to be pretty precise most of the time. that's much harder, imo, and can only be learned through practice.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
If you wait for the jab after a blocked aerial, you can just grab him or WD away. Everyone tries to move before the jab, that's why it works so often. A similar situation presents itself when fighting Fox/Falco.
SuperRad knows what he's talking about. I use up on the control stick + up on the c-stick, but either method will work fine. Remember that you have to cancel your jump with usmash before you leave the ground. If you're jumping and getting uair, or just jumping...you're doing the usmash too slow/late. Do it faster so it cancels the jump completely and you stay grounded. (When I say faster, I mean make the usmash input as close to the jump input as possible. Up on both sticks at almost the same time.)
------------
Ganon can't hold his own against Fox at all. Between outmaneuvering him on every level and the morbid failure he experiences the moment he blocks your attack, there isn't much he can do. Granted, once he knocks you down there is potential for good damage and maybe a stock. If you can learn to CC jabs, edge-guard his terrible recovery with roughly 90% efficiency, call his DJs with uthrow and land sneaky uairs and weave around his large hitboxes for like 40-50% per aerial...
GG
Having one of the best Ganons in our community really helped us learn the MU inside and out.
I remember Pkmvodka talking to us at Rom2 about how he was beating Kage's Ganon the night before, then that very day he beat Mango. Unknown, KK and I always talk about how weird it is to watch Kage get beat at home but place insanely well oos. lol
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
What does everyone think of the idea of Fox beating Falco? It's a pretty alien idea, but i've heard both Shiz and Armada say it now.
cykofox
Smash Ace
in theory fox ***** the whole cast. not only beat but ****.
in tournament, falco just has more reliable stuff against him.
Renth
Smash Hero
I hate ganon vs. fox ^_^
Unknown destroyed me.
Johns - none
Unknown destroyed me.
Johns - none
Tomacawk
Smash Master
hey awhile ago I was talking about stalling in a shine to bait a move on the platform
well here it is lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhoD5Myfq38#t=1m32s
ironically it failed here though
it's another one of those things that people should keep in mind but should not make standard issue
well here it is lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhoD5Myfq38#t=1m32s
ironically it failed here though
it's another one of those things that people should keep in mind but should not make standard issue
Silent Wolf
...
fox beats falco for sure, everyone just sucks *** against falco. people need better pressure.
edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Glc2zier57A
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
i saw chops do it against eggz, except he did it from above, which baited a getup attack, and chops just dropped and *****, it was tight.
Silent Wolf
...
cool. I found some other places you can do it too but I can't really say anything about those right now =P
JPOBS
Smash Hero
i smell tech skill video material.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
YES lmao!!!!!!! DK country *****es
*Irrelevant*
Kanelol
Smash Lord
Swolf whens the next video coming out
I watch active artwork every night before bed and it's getting boring
:[
I watch active artwork every night before bed and it's getting boring
:[
Silent Wolf
...
mmmm July? Late June is likely. The wait will be worth it =)
CalamityofCox
Smash Ace
i m waiting too!!!
PB&J
Smash Hero
i agree. the community does need to learn how to fight him as a whole
and that invisible shine is too good..i watched it like 4 times. cant wait for your new vid..im putting a vid out soon too..showing off my crappy tech skill. yours will **** mine though
k so what do you guys do in fox ditto's if you shine the opponent (on the ground) but you have to waveshine backwards at them, normally my goal is just hit a jab reset, but if i waveshine backwards, thats impossible i think, maybe i'm just not fast enough. but are there other options you guys look for?
right now i just take it as a shine and then try to tech chase follow them with a grab or upsmash.
right now i just take it as a shine and then try to tech chase follow them with a grab or upsmash.