Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[etecoon]

Peach becomes viable
ROB becomes viable
Marth becomes viable
Olimar becomes viable

Right now, none of those characters statistically SHOULD be winning.

The ban helps to even out the higher end of the tier list. Nobody said it would save Ganondorf and Samus.

Peach loses to Snake and Marth. Tier ***** MK mains will go Snake seeking the next best character, people who liked the swordsman playstyle go Marth, gg peach uprising. Oli probably doesn't change much...

Not that I'm saying the metagame isn't arguably healthier that way I just find Olimar to be a disgusting annoying character and the idea of him doing better offends me greatly.

 

[Pierce7d]

Pierce Why Are You Soo Freaking Pro!

My secret is that I'm not actually arguing for pro-ban or anti-ban. I'm more concerned about putting facts on the table, so that the people it matters to can make proper decisions. Also, I read everything, and study a lot which helps.

EDIT: Yes, m2k usually beats me with Snake, who he barely practices. M2k is good with most of the characters, because he is naturally talented at smash, and understands the game at a greater level. He will definitely still be dominant even if MK is banned, however m2k doesn't want him banned because of the investment in him, and his ability to attack in what is considered to be a campy game. I totally relate to this.

 

[Melomaniacal]

My secret is that I'm not actually arguing for pro-ban or anti-ban. I'm more concerned about putting facts on the table, so that the people it matters to can make proper decisions. Also, I read everything, and study a lot which helps.

You know, I've noticed that. Every post you make, I'm thinking "wow, ownage post... ?"

 

[Clai]

Except that ina mathcup that is 6-4. you need to be more skilled than your opponent my a noticeable amount in order to win.
So regardless of what occurs, you would still move ot the safest choice because you still risk falling into a bad amtchup.
A match that is 6-4 is no guarantee of a loss, but it certainly makes things harder for the disadvantaged opponent to win. The bar of ksill necessary to win is higher than for your opponnent and assuming high level play, the difference in skill i not going to be very great.

I think you are overreacting to a 4-6 matchup. High level players are perfectly able to beat other high level players even when the matchup is 4-6. It happens in Brawl, it happens in a lot of fighting games. 4-6 is perfectly winnable.

I sure as heck would not run into a match us ganondorf on the first round of a set. Its rather suicidal unless they chose G&W

Most of the time I can discern who my opponent mains, so I don't get bit in the butt too bad on the first round.

Correct but we don't care for the player. only the character.

Right, and Metaknight isn't dominating enough to force high-level players to forego their mains and counter with Metaknight. You can say 'Metaknight beats x character, so you benefit more by picking Metaknight and that's all that matters," all you want, but people don't actually follow this logic and stick to their mains.

Well thas another issue. The matches between the two players are often used too much as actual evidence rather than as indirect support. Mainly because you have all those variables. What if m2k was drunk the day befor? What if ally was lacking sleep. etc ec.

Are you going to say that M2K gets drunk the day before every match he has with Ally? By the time those two players have played a certain amount of matches, the variables that affect one match cancel out and you have a solid set of data to look at.

Woah that is certainly not true.
When one says high level play, it means that the characters in question are using all their tools to the best of their effect and will you the appropriate strategies as necessary.
The argument of high level of play does not automatically mean the player must be involved.

You and I have different definitions of high-level play, and it's going to affect the way we discuss this. All I have to say about the matter is: you can talk about characters using the best of their abilities all they want, but somebody has to actually be doing it so the talk doesn't simply become fantasy.

Players are NEVER part of the argument in such debates, because it is the character in question and the player's behavior creates a massive influence.
There have been cases where an Akuma was perfected by a Balrog.
This does not change anything though, because the player is merely using the character, not changing the character.

I'm willing to bet that the Akuma player who was perfected by the Balrog wasn't very skilled and using his abilities to the fullest. Therefore we can throw out that match.

Yes, but Metaknight doesn't invalidate enough characters to make this risk needlessly high. Soft disavantages are slightly bad, but for the most part, they're entirely winnable. Thus, the concept of "everbody must use Metaknight to avoid a bad matchup," is really more like "If people are so senselessly paranoid that that they must never have a slightly disadvantageous matchup ever ever, they should pick Metaknight." Thankfully, most people aren't like this.

You didn't respond to this...

Over centralization is the main argument regarding all bans. It is the most objective argument and also, has no logical fallacy.
This is supported by over a decade of gaming.

For example, in Yu-gi-oh, Synchro Cat ends the game in less than 5 turns.
If you make an illegal deck, unless that deck ends the game on the first turn, synchro cat tends to win. Simply because it is much mor consistent, faster,s tronger and flat out better in every way.

Does this make synchro cat ban worthy? no

One does not imply anoter.
you can be the best and be ban worthy even though you aren't that much better than everyone else.

I'm not getting the analogy. Does simply having synchro cat significantly increase your chances of winning without any strategy involved in it? Can other decks, while standing on their own in the Yugioh metagame, stand a reasonable chance of winning against synchro cat? I haven't played Yugioh in years, so I can't make the connection well.

THat means little to the context of my argument. which is that MK causes overcentralization through the CP system.
I can think of several characters who are invalidated by others outside of MK, so the argument regarding direct centralization simply cannot work.

We're not talking about Dedede here, we're talking about Metaknight. Since the discussion is singularly talking about Metaknight, we have to look at Metaknight's matchups and see if Metaknight ***** enough of the cast to cause this overcentralization you're speaking of. Before you respond to this, read my response to the next quote:

He isn't pulling an Akuma or Old Sagat and ****** more than half the case.
Nor is he pulling a MvC2 Magneto and destroying more than 90% of the cast either.
However, he does force the game to revolve around him due to the method with which the CP system works.

Yes, Metaknight's the best character in the game, and thus he's going to centralize the CP system. I simply don't think that he stangleholds the CP system to the point that the majority of the cast instantly becomes unviable because of this. You don't have to counterpick MK with MK if you're one of the many, many characters that have a reasonable chance of winning against him.

They da nd often provide different ratiosfor the matchups.
For example, Oli vs MK on rainbow cruise? Or Oli vs Luigi on Rainbow cruise. It is definitely a terrible matchup for the little guy.
Hence why when matchups are made, they typically assume a neutral stage and not the CP's.

Then you'd think they'd focus on the matchup on Rainbow Cruise a little more, right? Since that's the stage that the MK player is most likely to pick if you didn't ban it, Olimar mains would want to concentrate and work a little harder to getting through this matchup, right?

By no means am I saying those weaknesses destroy the character.

What it does mean is that there is no good stage that one can take MK that would create a weakness in his gameplay.
Meanwhile, he can do the same to every other character. SO he can always maintain an a advantage and ensure he never has one. When you factor in stage strikes and strange banning it really becomes and issue.
So MK simply bans FD (his worst stage) and now has no need to worry about being CP'ed.
Nor will the opponent switch if they are already using a character who is only slightly disadvantaged. They can only suffer more, while the MK user has nothing to lose.

It's simply a luxury that being the best character in the game has. If MK simply bans FD against, say, Diddy Kong, it eliminates the stage where Diddy Kong could have the advanatage, but the counterpicking player could simply pick another stage that he or she is really good on and create a pretty good situation for him or herself. It's an issue, yes, but a completely manageable one. And before you say anything, manageable does not have to equal advantageous. You're going up against the best character in the game, after all.

Yeah its kinda difficult.
Frankly I'll make this my last post and secede the argument since its rather tiring and im not doing a good job at it.

At least you're being reasonable with your arguments and allowing me to state my points. There's likely a few pro-ban arguers who wouldn't let me do the same.

Actually there is a difference.
THere is a over centralizing by nature which is basically (key word being basically) "play this character or his counter or lose." So the game inevitably revolves around that character.

But you don't lose if you stick with your main that ends up losing only around 40-60 to Metaknight. You can win just fine on those odds.

An excellent example is that of Ravager. The only deck that stood a chance was Tooth and Nail and T&N had to be specically made to fight Ravager and as a result, got ***** by other decks. Then Ravager would **** everyone else.
The result, Ravager was banned.

To put this in Brawl perspective, you would leave Metaknight's chances against Snake at even, but put the rest of Metaknight's matchups at 80:20. Yeah, it's really different from what Brawl actually is.

You then have overcentralization by choice or popularity.
If Peach became the ONLY character used in tournaments sheis over centralizing, however, this is a choice and not a result fo the character. It is an invalid type of centralizing.

Which is what I think is EXACTLY happening to Metaknight in this situation. Metaknight is the best, no doubt, but he is not overcentralizing in the way you say he is.

My point is to show that MK over centralizes by nature because he forces the player t choose MK due to his safety.

No he doesn't.

He never has a disadvantage, can remove his worst stage and then he is fine, no other character will place him at a disadvantage.
S your opponent will ALWAYS be forced to work hard, especially on a stage not beneficial to them.

That's what happens when you're going up against the best character in the game.

he destroyed a poor Sonic. Which is my point, just because Falcon beats a Sonic does not automatically mean we should raise our eyebrows at it.
Even if Ally beats the world's best Sonic with his falcon, it could be considered the exception that proves the rule.
unless that result is duplicated not only by him but other players, it really cannot be mentioned to a great effect.

No, but it creates a situation where other players can follow Ally's example and work with Falcon to consistently beat Sonic. Sonic doesn't beat Falcon too badly to the point where he is really constricting the chances of this happening (and if he does, Metaknight doesn't do it to Snake, which is the real point of this argument)

I covered this earlier regarding over centralization. Look up.

Not enough to convince me of anything.

Hey i saw an opening. I had to take it. XD

Touche`

key word being usually. FOr example, it is often argued that chun Li is better than Yun.
Yun is safer, but Chun Li hits harder.

Obviously Chun-Li is not better than Yun to the point that Chun-Li would be the best choice all of the time. So yes, key word being usually.

Also, unlike other fighting games, Smash tends to rely on CPing due to the interactive environments so the ratio in a matchup is often affected by these stages, even on neutrals.
It cannot be denied that Falco fairs better on FD than BF.

True, but Falco can do well enough on BF that he's taking on an unreasonable amount of risk.

They an but it would be a terrible idea.
You really need to be THAT match bettr to overcome a horrendous matchup.

Great Scott, they may be just crazy enough to work!

I really wish you luck, I cant use Ganon for the life of me.
I just press buttons and hope something works out.

That's essentially how I feel about my Metaknight skills. I just happen to be really, really good with Ganon's moveset.

Actually the trnametn results is only good enough to dictate the centralization of the metagame around a character. The tournament results cannot be used for anything else really.

And when you see surprise characters in those tournament results, that character starts to be taken a little more seriously. There's enough variety in the results that no one character is needlessly dominating the others (key word: needlessly)

Also, the players aren't ding anything ne or unique with the character.

And the ones who are are shaping the metagame with their own hands. It's quite a feat, really. Don't tell me there aren't players who are doing this, because there are.

The character does not change. We only consider the high level play of the player in a case like Fox in melee, who was impossibly hard to master due to human restrictions.
metaknight, fai game. If it can be done, its presumed to be done.

The character doesn't change. The character's metagame changes.

So if IC's get a grab on any character, thats a stock. Doesn't matter if it has or hasn't been done before because it can be done.

Somebody had to discover it first to make sure it works. If players can't do it, we go back to human limitations, like Melee Fox, as you pointed out.

Approaching? Landing a kill move. I DEMAND VIDS!

I nearly beat Hylian's G&W on Rainbow Cruise. Is that good enough?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScM1cmqIaCQ

Except the problem with the tournament results is that it is not in depth.
All it saysnis what character is winning the most tournaments.
it does not tell us who played who, the brackets, the stat eof the players, the stages played etc etc.

Ankoku's and Amazing Ampharos' lists give us all the data we need.

 

[gantrain05]

lol, yeah keep jumping at them olimars with Nair and keep losing to them if you want, they tried that same tactic with luigi and the olimars figured out the MU better. also i don't think luigi is going anywhere just because MK would be gone, he still gets ***** by many other chars. like D3 for example, he has no answer to G&W, and he has alot of trouble getting past campy snakes, and unfortunately for him, those are 3 very popular tourney characters right now.

 

[Remzi]

The only character that doesn't belong with the rest is Snake, ban him.

Also, a character doesn't need strong counters to be balanced.

Algol had all of his bubble shenanigans among other things that were foreign to the rest of the game.

Strong counters? I'm asking for a ****ing 45-55

All you need to look at is this. Theoretically and stastically, an MK should win every single tournament, because if matchups go as they should, MK should only be losing to other MKs.

Of course this doesn't always happen because of how large a factor player skill is, but a character that is a completely safe pick, in a game where counterpicking is key, is broken.

Let's say I win game 1 in a set as Snake. I'm thinking, "hmm, he could counter me with Falco, in that case I could whip out my Marth. But then again he might use D3 who beats both Snake and Marth. I'll just go MK instead..."

Among other things, just looking at MK and his tools, it's pretty obvious that he is completely overpowered. Nobody should have that amazing a speed/range ratio. Nobody should have recovery that is virtually unstoppable. Nobody should have multiple kill moves that come out in under 5 frames. Don't get me started on uair, dtilt, etc.

 

[Emperor Time]

I heard Luigi has potential to go even or better with Snake.

Truth?

 

[Palpi]

Nothing I have ever heard.

 

[Clai]

Uh, there wasn't a single Sagat in the top 8 at Evo.

Get *****.

1) MK doesn't dominate the rest of the cast.... but he has no bad matchups and is the best character in the game...... ok
2) Ryu loses to Sagat. A lot of characters lose to Sagat, but http://evo2k.com/
not a single sagat anywhere ever. Yes the game is still young, yes Sagat is the best character, but in practice? Sagat isn't dominating like MK. also, realize that like 1000 ppl from around the world entered that tournament.

Sometimes the best character isn't the most overused character, say it be personal preference, sticking with old characters, ascethics, whatever.

Metaknight just happens to be both.

It still doesn't justify a ban.

 

[Exceladon City]

Algol had all of his bubble shenanigans among other things that were foreign to the rest of the game.

Strong counters? I'm asking for a ****ing 45-55

All you need to look at is this. Theoretically and stastically, an MK should win every single tournament, because if matchups go as they should, MK should only be losing to other MKs.

Of course this doesn't always happen because of how large a factor player skill is, but a character that is a completely safe pick, in a game where counterpicking is key, is broken.

Let's say I win game 1 in a set as Snake. I'm thinking, "hmm, he could counter me with Falco, in that case I could whip out my Marth. But then again he might use D3 who beats both Snake and Marth. I'll just go MK instead..."

Among other things, just looking at MK and his tools, it's pretty obvious that he is completely overpowered. Nobody should have that amazing a speed/range ratio. Nobody should have recovery that is virtually unstoppable. Nobody should have multiple kill moves that come out in under 5 frames. Don't get me started on uair, dtilt, etc.

Wasn't that the case at Genesis? Aside from M2K obviously losing to Ally.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I heard Luigi has potential to go even or better with Snake.

Truth?

Not sure, check the Luigi Boards or someone who has the experience.

 

[Avion]

Wasn't that the case at Genesis? Aside from M2K obviously losing to Ally.

"Only 3 of the top 8 placings were from Metaknight mains, and those placings were from arguably the 3 best MKs in the nation." ~All is Brawl

And disregarding the fact that an MK didn't win is basically just ignoring part of your opposition's argument

 

[Pierce7d]

I heard Luigi has potential to go even or better with Snake.

Truth?

Could be. Boss is the only Luigi main worth talking about that I know of. MK hurts Luigi really badly, which is why I said

Still, Luigi would have to be quite skilled at spiking and powershielding to really succeed in the MU. Remember that Luigi outboxes Snake, can probably hit Snake off cypher with SideB, catch airdodges with UpB (Snake MUST airdodge too much), juggle pretty decently with Utilt and Nair, etc. He also has reliable kill moves even vs. this weight-class. Still, I see Snake's ftilt, usmash and utilt shutting down approaches, with Nades WRECKING downB. I see nade toss blocking missle recovery. I see jab wrecking Luigi who must airdodge and spot dodge often. It's all theory craft, almost no one knows this MU at high level play, because Luigi is underused.

 

[Remzi]

Wasn't that the case at Genesis? Aside from M2K obviously losing to Ally.

Yes, ranked MKs only lost to other MKs and Ally.

There may have been one more person who beat a ranked MK though, can't remember.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Algol had all of his bubble shenanigans among other things that were foreign to the rest of the game.

Strong counters? I'm asking for a ****ing 45-55

All you need to look at is this. Theoretically and stastically, an MK should win every single tournament, because if matchups go as they should, MK should only be losing to other MKs.

Of course this doesn't always happen because of how large a factor player skill is, but a character that is a completely safe pick, in a game where counterpicking is key, is broken.

Let's say I win game 1 in a set as Snake. I'm thinking, "hmm, he could counter me with Falco, in that case I could whip out my Marth. But then again he might use D3 who beats both Snake and Marth. I'll just go MK instead..."

Among other things, just looking at MK and his tools, it's pretty obvious that he is completely overpowered. Nobody should have that amazing a speed/range ratio. Nobody should have recovery that is virtually unstoppable. Nobody should have multiple kill moves that come out in under 5 frames. Don't get me started on uair, dtilt, etc.

Snake, Wario, and Diddy all have an arguably slight advantage on MK. Obviously it's not a significant advantage, but that's not the point.

My point is that you don't need to have strong counters. My point is that MK has close to even match ups, and match ups that are not that strongly in his favor. To me, this means I can counter pick Snake, and if I'm the better player, I will win. That's not broken. That's not breaking the counterpicking system.

 

[etecoon]

Snake, Wario, and Diddy all have an arguably slight advantage on MK. Obviously it's not a significant advantage, but that's not the point.

uh, no they don't, they are all 45:55 OR WORSE against him. an extreme minority consider this a possibility for snake, I don't know of ANYONE who actually thinks wario beats MK, and M2K is the only one I've heard of saying diddy has an advantage against him...and the arguments for these characters really aren't there, they lose to MK both in theory and in practice.

 

[MarKO X]

Wasn't that the case at Genesis? Aside from M2K obviously losing to Ally.

Ally beat all 3 MKs iirc. I know he definitely beat Tyrant and M2K. not sure about Dojo.

But yeah, that's one of those cases that have two arguments. One, you could say that if you are in fact skilled enough, you can beat MK. Another is, MK is technically broken, but somehow Ally was able to beat them.

That's why banning MK is up for debate.

And as this debate goes on, even though I'm "intelligently trolling" more than I am trying to be pro-ban, I'm kinda back on the fence, because anti-ban has provided some amazing points.

namely the one of sagat being 8 of the top 15 in japan. that blew my mind.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Theoretically and stastically, an MK should win every single tournament, because if matchups go as they should, MK should only be losing to other MKs.

"Go as they should"? You mean "go as the super-scrubby-character boards think they should".

Match-ups aren't set in stone. Just because some people on character boards feel the need to decide that MK vs Snake is in MKs favour doesn't make it true.

Of course this doesn't always happen because of how large a factor player skill is, but a character that is a completely safe pick, in a game where counterpicking is key, is broken.

1.) COUNTERPICKING IS NOT THE KEY TO THIS GAME
2.) MK can be counterpicked.

Let's say I win game 1 in a set as Snake. I'm thinking, "hmm, he could counter me with Falco, in that case I could whip out my Marth. But then again he might use D3 who beats both Snake and Marth. I'll just go MK instead..."

Or you just stay Snake and **** him lmao.

Among other things, just looking at MK and his tools, it's pretty obvious that he is completely overpowered. Nobody should have that amazing a speed/range ratio.

Snake ftilt anyone? Also sppd/range ratio isn't all. There's also dmg involved. Few of MKs moves deal more than 10% (this includes tornado if you can sdi, which you SHOULD). Snake ftilt comes out in 4 frames, deals 21% dmg and hits further than many other moves.

Also, who are you to decide what speed/range ratios a character "should" have. MK doesn't even have a projectile so he can still be outranged.

Nobody should have recovery that is virtually unstoppable.

Wow, what arrogance ... YOU ARE NOBODY. YOU HAVE NO SAYING ON WHAT CHARACTERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO.

Nobody should have multiple kill moves that come out in under 5 frames.

None of MKs KO moves comes out under 5 frames. His fastest "KO move" hits on the 5th frame and is pretty harmless. Just learn to DI and you'll see the difference. Wolf can survive a FRESH dsmash in the center of BF at 180% and Wolf has only averagish weight and no "break" move á la bucket.

If MK can't get the gimp, he has promblems getting a KO unless you can't DI.

Don't get me started on uair, dtilt, etc.

What of it? Two good, yet situational moves, that have good properties but also weaknesses (small hitboxes, VERY little damage...)

 

[Melomaniacal]

uh, no they don't, they are all 45:55 OR WORSE against him. an extreme minority consider this a possibility for snake, I don't know of ANYONE who actually thinks wario beats MK, and M2K is the only one I've heard of saying diddy has an advantage against him...and the arguments for these characters really aren't there, they lose to MK both in theory and in practice.

Right, and I guess it's just a coincidence that Ninjalink and ADHD basically beat every MK they encounter.

 

[etecoon]

Ally beat all 3 MKs iirc. I know he definitely beat Tyrant and M2K. not sure about Dojo.

I don't think they met in bracket, too lazy to check, but dojo defeated ally 3-2 in a MM, the two games ally won, dojo SD'd.

Right, and I guess it's just a coincidence that Ninjalink and ADHD basically beat every MK they encounter.

they're better players/know the matchup better, MK isn't an auto win, if you don't know what you're doing around banana's you'll lose, but given the same knowledge, MK wins.

 

[Divinokage]

Ally beat all 3 MKs iirc. I know he definitely beat Tyrant and M2K. not sure about Dojo.

But yeah, that's one of those cases that have two arguments. One, you could say that if you are in fact skilled enough, you can beat MK. Another is, MK is technically broken, but somehow Ally was able to beat them.

That's why banning MK is up for debate.

And as this debate goes on, even though I'm "intelligently trolling" more than I am trying to be pro-ban, I'm kinda back on the fence, because anti-ban has provided some amazing points.

namely the one of sagat being 8 of the top 15 in japan. that blew my mind.

Well Fiction also beat M2k at Tourneyplay 2 with Wario gg. Pro-Ban arguments are terrible.

 

[Fatmanonice]

@ Pierce:

Wait... did you just argue Mario as a Olimar counter? O_o; Well, that's certainly a new arguement. Granted, it's definately not his worst match up but it's pretty annoying regardless. I couldn't agree with you more about Mario being freakishly underrated. Second to last in rankings and we have characters like Link in D rank? What is going on?

I disagree with Luigi getting a boost too as I say, overall, he has a harder time against the high tiers than Mario except for the key match ups of Metaknight and Snake. The main difference between Mario and Luigi is that Luigi does better in general leading up to the high tier and can kill earlier and more reliabely on stage.

I also don't know about the Ice Climbers' overall potential. They have the highest learning curve of anyone in the cast and, because of that, I can't see people flocking to them with Metaknight gone. With this being said, I can see them getting a boost but not taking over as the dominant character. You can do somethings that are royally annoying to the Ice Climber's strategy too like buffering grenades with Snake, ledge camping with Pikachu, and pretty much anything with ROB. With Metaknight gone, I could easily see a larger increase in ROB players because his learning curve is almost as small so I think that would be more likely to squash aspiring Ice Climbers earlier on to prevent too many from becoming serious threats.

King Dedede's losing popularity but, like with Lucario and Pit, I mostly blame Metaknight for this despite the match up not being absolutely craptastic. King Dedede has to be played a certain way to be effective and I think a lot of players have lost the patience to do so with Metaknight being his usual self. It's like with the Ice Climbers and Falco, if you focus too much on the chain grabs, you're screwed and with Dedede I think it's made a lot more tempting seeing 1. how easy it is to do and 2. how the knockback remains virtually the same even as your opponent's % rises. With Metaknight gone, I could easily see King Dedede rising up in placings again.

Zelda's overrated? Like with Ike, Zelda's basically been getting worse since the game has come out and the only person I've ever heard sing her praises is Yuna and that was nearly a year ago. In my own perspective, I think ZSS is overrated along with Mr. Game and Watch.

Add in: Hmmm... if it wasn't for Pikachu I'd say that Fox would have a lot of potential too with Metaknight gone. Then again, Donkey Kong would be viable if it wasn't for King Dedede's retardedly easy infinite on him so the one character road block is nothing new...

 

[CPU1]

I don't think they met in bracket, too lazy to check, but dojo defeated ally 3-2 in a MM, the two games ally won, dojo SD'd.



they're better players/know the matchup better, MK isn't an auto win, if you don't know what you're doing around banana's you'll lose, but given the same knowledge, MK wins.

alls you have to do is dair camp diddy and u win...

 

[etecoon]

Well Fiction also beat M2k at Tourneyplay 2 with Wario gg. Pro-Ban arguments are terrible.

M2K has also beaten fiction like 2-3 other times, honestly I don't think he should be banned but why are we pretending he's not as good as he is? No one beats Meta Knight, that alone doesn't make him ban worthy when numerous characters are close to him, so why exaggerate?

 

[Melomaniacal]

they're better players/know the matchup better, MK isn't an auto win, if you don't know what you're doing around banana's you'll lose, but given the same knowledge, MK wins.

You're right, MK isn't an auto win. He has even match ups.
Not broken by any stretch of the imagination.

Until I see Diddy's getting destroyed by MKs, you are wrong. MK loses. Results speak louder than your speculations.

 

[Rykoshet]

2.) MK can be counterpicked.

In what world?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In what world?

It's called "reality". Something that pro-banners dislike.

 

[OverLade]

Well Fiction also beat M2k at Tourneyplay 2 with Wario gg. Pro-Ban arguments are terrible.

Fiction also believes that the matchup is unwinnable if MK plays gay enough, and hasn't beaten Tyrant in months. He said M2K was playing badly at that, and if he was playing the matchup correctly, he wouldn't have had a chance.

Dojo also beat Fiction 2-0 last time they played.

 

[Divinokage]

In what world?

The not scrub world. =P

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm not getting the analogy. Does simply having synchro cat significantly increase your chances of winning without any strategy involved in it? Can other decks, while standing on their own in the Yugioh metagame, stand a reasonable chance of winning against synchro cat? I haven't played Yugioh in years, so I can't make the connection well.

Ther eis no such thing as the a no strategy character.

Synchro cat won ALL the national tournaments. Destroy tele DAD, GLadiator beasts and black wings, all of which were considered really friggin good.
The deck is EXTREMELY fast and consistent.

It ***** illegal decks that dont FTK.

only decks that are just as fast and consistent stand a reasonable chance, but even then the matchup typcallyis win by the S.C. decks.

No, but it creates a situation where other players can follow Ally's example and work with Falcon to consistently beat Sonic. Sonic doesn't beat Falcon too badly to the point where he is really constricting the chances of this happening (and if he does, Metaknight doesn't do it to Snake, which is the real point of this argument)

The point was that unless people replicate it, its simply an exception to the rule.
And yes, Falcon gets beat out by Sonic. badly.

Obviously Chun-Li is not better than Yun to the point that Chun-Li would be the best choice all of the time. So yes, key word being usually.

She only has one disadvantage which is to Yun dude.

Ankoku's and Amazing Ampharos' lists give us all the data we need.

Ankoku's and AA provide data that supports centralization in regards to tournaments. NOHING else. You'd ahve ot ask adumbrodeus about it. I only responded to a few points that weren't really related to the debate.
Why? Cause i suck at pro-ban, its not my positionm plus, other subjects are more interesting at this point.

Match-ups aren't set in stone. Just because some people on character boards feel the need to decide that MK vs Snake is in MKs favour doesn't make it true.

Wrong, well,t he way you put it anyway.
Matchups ARE set in stone. Characters do not change.
What does change is our view of the matchup and our discovery concerning the utilizing of those characters.

Sonic used to do badly against luigi, then Sonic mains realized, oh wait, Sonic ahs the tools to deal.

1.) COUNTERPICKING IS NOT THE KEY TO THIS GAME
2.) MK can be counterpicked.

1.Counterpicking is very useful and should be done if you are playing to win.

2. Really? Tell me when you find an MK who doesn't strike Halberd against Snake.

Or you just stay Snake and **** him lmao.

Thats assuming you'll win with Snake lmao

Snake ftilt anyone? Also sppd/range ratio isn't all.

MK Dtilt anyone?
Get frame trapped.

There's also dmg involved. Few of MKs moves deal more than 10% (this includes tornado if you can sdi, which you SHOULD). Snake ftilt comes out in 4 frames, deals 21% dmg and hits further than many other moves.

Did I really hear the damage thing come up? Do you not recall that MK's is very good at racking up damage due to his incredible high range AND high speed. BIg deal, Snake can net 21% fresh Ftilt. MK doesn't care, he can rack up damage just fine with moves that are faster and place the opponent in bad positions.

Also, who are you to decide what speed/range ratios a character "should" have. MK doesn't even have a projectile so he can still be outranged.

I ahve to rip off EL here.

Marth in melee was broken but had his weaknesses that could be exploited. Good character design.

Metaknight is not broken but has no weaknesses that can be exploited. Bad character design.

Unless of course you believe we should have a character like Ryu from the originals Street fighter with an invincible DP and 0-death combos out the wazzoo with massive priority and speed.

Wow, what arrogance ... YOU ARE NOBODY. YOU HAVE NO SAYING ON WHAT CHARACTERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO.

That is disgustingly rude and can be applied to anyone INCLUDING game designers.
Unless of course you feel Akuma's design in ST was perfectly fine.
Unless you felt Ryu was perfectly designed in Street Fighter

If you notice, games like GG and other competitive games do NOT make characters like MK. If it does occur, they fix the issue in later iterations. So there you go.
Oh and SC2.
and WC3.
Jesus all these examples of GOOD design.

MK is not comparable to any of them.

None of MKs KO moves comes out under 5 frames.

Nair, Utilt, Dair kills through gimping.
Even then average human reaction is around 6 frames for the elite.
12-14 on average.

Yeah.

His fastest "KO move" hits on the 5th frame and is pretty harmless.

lol wut?
How is it harmless? You've just been knocked off stage.

Just learn to DI and you'll see the difference.

ah ho hur. URYYAA WHOOSH!
Wolf: OOARRGH

Wolf can survive a FRESH dsmash in the center of BF at 180% and Wolf has only averagish weight and no "break" move á la bucket.

That is because you are DIing up where his FALL speed comes into play.
Thats the reason why he can survive so long.
Even then you are now offstage. Against MK, with wolf, good luck,

If MK can't get the gimp, he has promblems getting a KO unless you can't DI.

He has his edge guarding and damage racking to make up for this.
Naming his cons without mentioning his pros is silly.

What of it? Two good, yet situational moves, that have good properties but also weaknesses (small hitboxes, VERY little damage...)

Are you serious?
Uair? Situational? Really?

Link is falling from above. MK Uairs (2 frames by the way) and link FF air dodges, he gets Dair.

Its a frame trap.
Dtilt is MK's longest ranged attack ont he ground, and his fastest. Are you seriously saying this?

Pro-ban may overrate MK's abilities by anti-ban often under rates them.


[/QUOTE]

 

[OverLade]

The only stage I believe anyone really has a solid edge over MK is on Halberd.

Ooops, I banned Halberd, sucks for you. MK vs. Falco/Diddy on FD is even at best, as MK can still string together damage and juggle relatively well.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's called "reality". Something that pro-banners dislike.

The not scrub world. =P

Bad trolls are bad.

MK has no bad worlds.

 

[Inui]

I heard Luigi has potential to go even or better with Snake.

Truth?

No. Only Dedede can.

 

[Pierce7d]

I'll drop in a little food for thought.

CO18 fought Ally in a money match at Genesis and won 3-0. MU was D3 vs Snake.

MK's recovery isn't unstoppable at all. This is a myth created by the OP. If you look on page 75 of this thread, or the link in my signature reading the guide on how to fight MK with Marth, then you will realize that MKs recover is quite guard, unless he recovers high above the stage, in which case you can start a juggle/still retain positional advantage. Furthermore, Metaknight can edgeguard Metaknight. This proves that MKs recover isn't as amazing as his edgeguard, which further goes to show that perhaps the reason people consider MK's recover so powerful is because MK can edgeguard them? That's duh.

Oh, btw, the way I recover with Marth, m2k says he's unable to edgeguard me unless I make a mistake. I believe Neo does it as well.

(Yay! Inui is back!)

 

[Sosuke]

That was the shortest ban ever.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Well Fiction also beat M2k at Tourneyplay 2 with Wario gg. Pro-Ban arguments are terrible.

Uh, you do realize that Fiction lost to Tyrant immediately after that? MK still won the tournament.

 

[n88]

The only stage I believe anyone really has a solid edge over MK is on Halberd.

I find that amusing.

 

[Masmasher@]

I think people look and see the big bulletin
"he has no bad matchups"
taking it out of context.
Numbers arent supposed to lie but character discussions are too fickle.

 

[etecoon]

No. Only Dedede can.

have you looked at DDD's get ups? his roll behind is the only thing that's remotely difficult to regrab him from on reaction, I think that at some point snake will beat DDD when snake's start utilizing this ****

another thing on this...

CO18 fought Ally in a money match at Genesis and won 3-0. MU was D3 vs Snake.

true but I'd think he has more experience in the matchup given how snake/DDD heavy florida is, afro says a lot of things about that matchup are only really done in florida right now...remember that afro beat ally in a MM at apex, florida has lots of good snake's to ditto...

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I find that amusing.

Ironic too.