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Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

Should Meta Knight be banned from competitive Brawl?


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  • Poll closed .
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Johnny Citrus

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
109
Alright, I'll stop comparing it. But it is a serious problem anyway. The entire community is so divided on this issue to such a high degree that talking about it, banning, or leaving MK in will divide them. Leaving him in and talking about it will cause more strife then banning him. Banning him will cause sharp pangs, but those will die down to nothing in a few months.

Banning him is the only option that'll cause the strife to stop and allow us to repair the community, since the problem will be gone. Also, many of the Anti-ban people have, and since the first poll still are... People who think it is too early to make a decision. How long do you need? when the next smash bros is out?
The community will still be divided with mk gone. Mk un banned tournies will be hosted all over the country. You think everyone will just hold hands and get along if mk is banned? There will probably be a reversal ban movement lol to bring mk back because there is so much evidence why he shouldn't be banned. If pro ban is truly correct then more evidence as to why he should be banned can be compiled in the future in the form of tourney results where meta knight completely dominates.
 

Abbra Cadav3r

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
31
Ummmm... wut other fighting game has one character that dominates the rest of the cast?
every fighting game
SF4: Sagat
BlazBlu: X:13
SF3s: Yun+Yang
MvC2: Magneto, Sentinal, Storm
SF2T: Ryu
SC4: Ivy, Hilde

every fighting game has a top character, thats how it works out. And this top character dominates tourney placings which is what you mean by dominates the cast, because you cant mean in matchups because the game hasnt been out long enough for matchup charts to count.

Since i know SF very well i can compare this situation to SF4 and Sagat. Sagat is hands down the best character in SF4, just like MK he has no bad matchups, only even ones. The difference in is the mentality of the communities.

The SF community realizes that SF4 is young and not everything has been found out and that metagames havent evolved fully. A good example would be blanka, at first blanka was considered top tier and quite a handful. then every character started advancing their metagame around him, even zangief who lost the matchup 3-7 ended up breaking even thanx to kara cancelled green hand. people were working to advance their character, thats why SF4 has grown very fast in terms of everyones metagames, look at the evo results, top 2 didnt have either player using sagat and the top ten was a very diverse set of fighters.

the problem im seeing here with the smash community is people flocking to high tier characters and not advancing the metagames of mid to low tier characters. People are not realizing that matchup charts are not right this early, and that a large factor of tier lists is placement in tourneys which is affected by character popularity.

everyone hear needs to stop complaining and start doin work.
 

MorphedChaos

Smash Lord
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The community will still be divided with mk gone. Mk un banned tournies will be hosted all over the country. You think everyone will just hold hands and get along if mk is banned? There will probably be a reversal ban movement lol to bring mk back because there is so much evidence why he shouldn't be banned. If pro ban is truly correct then more evidence as to why he should be banned can be compiled in the future in the form of tourney results where meta knight completely dominates.
Well, the results are skewed anyway due to people 'soft banning' MK. The areas where this doesn't happen he is a plague.
 

POKE40

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♥ My post count is my age. Deal with it.
So you believe in the end of the world in December 23rd 2012? =P I'd like to see if something would happen or not.. but you know.. what i've heard is the earth will shift it's axis suddenly.. or the earth is ascending to the 4th dimension. Things like that.. can't know if it's true or not right now.. so I must enjoy life right now and use whatever means I have now to enjoy it fully. =P How about you?
http://www.greatdreams.com/end-world.htm

this website has all the details concerning that day ^^^
XD

I love what the website is called: "great dreams"


I'm planning to enjoy the rest of life.
No more meaning to live now. We're all going to die young! /sarcasm
(I actually don't believe it is going to end on that day.
a lot of people will commit suicide (hypothesis) and I'll be enjoying the winter holidays:laugh:)

It'll be the greatest lol in history:
december 24, 2012.
I'll sell some "We survived December 23, 2010" t-shirts. :D

....don't forget your towel on that day too
 

Abbra Cadav3r

Smash Cadet
Joined
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Messages
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the aztecs actually beleived that 2012 was going to be a time of spiritual enlightenment, therefore there would be no need for a calendar after that.
 

MarKO X

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every fighting game
SF4: Sagat
BlazBlu: X:13
SF3s: Yun+Yang
MvC2: Magneto, Sentinal, Storm
SF2T: Ryu
SC4: Ivy, Hilde

+ some stuff
as far as sf is concerned, no.

SF4: Sagat is the best, but : http://evo2k.com/
NO SAGAT IN TOP 8! AT EVO! WITH LIKE, 1000 PPL WORLDWIDE!
SF3: Yun, yeah. Yang has an inifinite, but guess what? He's clearly not better than Chun and Ken. Hell, Urien might be better than Yang, but I don't remmeber the 3S tierlist like that.... But Yun is not the sole dominator of that game.
MvC2: Everyone forgets Cable. I dunno why. Cable is beast.
SF2T: Ryu? Only Ryu? Not O.Sagat? Not Dhalsim? Not Vega? Not Balrog? Really?

So yeah, wut's your point again?
 

phi1ny3

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Alright, I'll stop comparing it. But it is a serious problem anyway. The entire community is so divided on this issue to such a high degree that talking about it, banning, or leaving MK in will divide them. Leaving him in and talking about it will cause more strife then banning him. Banning him will cause sharp pangs, but those will die down to nothing in a few months.

Banning him is the only option that'll cause the strife to stop and allow us to repair the community, since the problem will be gone. Also, many of the Anti-ban people have, and since the first poll still are... People who think it is too early to make a decision. How long do you need? when the next smash bros is out?

As for the world ending. It'll be a nuclear holocaust. North Korea will launch a nuke, then everyone else will panic and launch their own nukes.... And boom, the world implodes.
Yes, N. Korea ftw!
Oh Xzax.. did you forget about Marth that can take down Snake/ICs/Wario/Falco pretty **** well? loll.
lol marth doesn't have an advantage vs. Snake and ICs. vs. IC's it's pretty even and snake? Only if he doesn't know how 2 camp.
Agreeable on the other MU's though.
 

Alus

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When will it 'not' be too early? When the holocaust is happening and millions of lives are being lost because you had a 'wait and see' attitude?
IMO the closest thing this is to any historic case would be the "should we nuke japan or not?" event.

So the next character to ban would be Snake? Banning him gives NO benefit.
Nu-uh!



This thread is so boring...

Oh Xzax.. did you forget about Marth that can take down Snake/ICs/Wario/Falco pretty **** well? loll.
WUT snake?
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
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Yes, N. Korea ftw!

lol marth doesn't have an advantage vs. Snake and ICs. vs. IC's it's pretty even and snake? Only if he doesn't know how 2 camp.
Agreeable on the other MU's though.
I never said they have an advantage, I said Marth can do well vs Snake and ICs, it's not a bad matchup.
 

Johnny Citrus

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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Messages
109
Well, the results are skewed anyway due to people 'soft banning' MK. The areas where this doesn't happen he is a plague.
First you say we should ban mk before he becomes a problem now you're saying he IS a problem?

Well if you looked at any of the links anti ban posted you would see meta knight is clearly not a "plague".

Tournaments like these for example:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=238593
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228910

Meta Knight places high and often wins tournies but he doesn't completely dominate the top5/top10.

I would love to see how many tournies where mk has been a "plague" as you say.
 

Red Arremer

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
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Vienna
as far as sf is concerned, no.

SF4: Sagat is the best, but : http://evo2k.com/
NO SAGAT IN TOP 8! AT EVO! WITH LIKE, 1000 PPL WORLDWIDE!
He still dominates in Japan.

SF3: Yun, yeah. Yang has an inifinite, but guess what? He's clearly not better than Chun and Ken. Hell, Urien might be better than Yang, but I don't remmeber the 3S tierlist like that.... But Yun is not the sole dominator of that game.
Correct, Chun-Li is dominating, since she only loses to Yun but beats everyone harder than Yun does. I wonder why Yang was mentioned by him, tho.
 

mikeray4

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 12, 2008
Messages
707
I cant see why we turn to other fighting games and their character bans.. cause all those games are based on health bar systems not like in brawl where we are based on ringout only.
 

gantrain05

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
3,840
Location
Maxwell, IA
It does. Several characters will become more viable. Mr. Game & Watch, for instance, or Peach. They will have a far easier time since one of their harder matchups is gone. [/pro-ban]
snake isn't too tough, 55-45 at worst, that matchup is currently wrong and really needs changed lol.
 

Firus

You know what? I am good.
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So the next character to ban would be Snake? Banning him gives NO benefit.
A) I have no way of predicting who might be banned next. Without Meta Knight a lot of things would change.
B) I didn't say it would make sense to ban someone else, as I don't think it makes sense to ban Meta Knight.

Alright, I'll stop comparing it. But it is a serious problem anyway. The entire community is so divided on this issue to such a high degree that talking about it, banning, or leaving MK in will divide them. Leaving him in and talking about it will cause more strife then banning him. Banning him will cause sharp pangs, but those will die down to nothing in a few months.
So what you're saying is, "Screw the meta game, who cares if it dies, let's just all be friends"?

That makes sense.

You're also saying that people who are against banning him can basically shut up and deal with it for the good of the community.

Yeah, no.

Banning him is the only option that'll cause the strife to stop and allow us to repair the community, since the problem will be gone. Also, many of the Anti-ban people have, and since the first poll still are... People who think it is too early to make a decision. How long do you need? when the next smash bros is out?
What about a permanent non-ban of Meta Knight? That would do the same thing.

But you'd probably say that that would leave room for the argument to be brought back up again and people will keep arguing. But if that's true, then the possibility of unbanning him could still come back up.

Basically, your whole argument sucks. If you think MK should be banned, say he should be banned instead of just saying that he needs to be banned to stop the arguing. That doesn't answer anything.

As for the world ending. It'll be a nuclear holocaust. North Korea will launch a nuke, then everyone else will panic and launch their own nukes.... And boom, the world implodes.
As for the world ending,

WE ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW HOW/IF/WHEN IT WILL HAPPEN SO WHY DON'T WE LEAVE THE TOPIC ALONE.

-_-
 

MarKO X

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He still dominates in Japan.
he dominates in Japan, but he is not the sole dominating force.

Correct, Chun-Li is dominating, since she only loses to Yun but beats everyone harder than Yun does. I wonder why Yang was mentioned by him, tho.
Yang was mentioned cause he has this weird infinite that can beat everyone, but iirc its pretty hard to do. Ken gets it in as well.

So, I ask again, what other fighting game has ONE (1) character dominating the rest of the cast?
BlazBlue was mentioned, and I can assume it's true, but I dont know the game aside from the fact that it exists.... is there anything else?
 

Pierce7d

Wise Hermit
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I find several of the arguments laughable, because some people are attempting to theorycraft the projected future, without taking many facts into consideration.

A) A lot of people complain that MK is winning too many tournaments, but this IS in fact due to player skill at the top level. Proof? It is seriously likely that M2k would remain dominant if he played Snake. The same goes for Tyrant, and possibly Dojo. Pick the top players of any region. Imagine they mained Snake from the beginning of Brawl. They would still win, we would probably even consider Snake the best character, since his metagame would be the most developed.

Now, imagine all the top pros, including Ally, played MK. They would still win. Ally is a genius and a talented player and would win if he used MK instead of Snake, as well as other top pros such as Atomsk, and Neo who have amazing MKs that they simply choose not to use. I'm sure if players such as Anther, and possibly Lain played either Snake or MK, they would still dominate their regions. (Texans, you'll excuse me for not name dropping you, but you already have a top MK and Snake, so it'd be pretty redundant.)

B) Snake is no where near ban-able, and probably won't be the second best character in the game. In fact, it is entirely possible that Snake is not the second best character in the game now, simply that he has the most favorable MU versus MK, and perhaps that isn't even true. It's very hard to tell, considering that at the top level right now that actually does exist, Ally, Candy, Razer, Anti, and Fatal choose to play Snake over other characters. I feel like MK does protect Snake, but for other reasons than people suggest. I think since MK indeed does centralize the metagame, the MU vs Snake is WIDELY overlooked. Recently, I've been thinking that Marth is 50-50 with Snake. I go even with Ally in friendlies, and I believe Neo does as well. MikeHaze recently beat him in tourney. Havok beat DSF's Snake. I believe Snake is widely overrated due to the fact that most players simply have not dedicated themselves to exploiting Snake's extreme weaknesses, unlike the way we have tried relentless to exploit Metaknight's miniscule weaknesses. If MK gets banned, Snake might live on the top for a second or so, but as soon as he gets some real attention, in a metagame this developed (as opposed to when the game first came out) Snake will probably take a fall.

C) Ice Climbers are being stupidly ignored right now. They are probably top 4 characters in the game, and will be the most SCARY character by far if MK is banned. Now, some people say Snake wins. I'm not sure, I don't know the MU that well, and I highly doubt that the Snake vs. IC MU is highly developed. All I can really say with the lack of data is that IC are dominating two regions right now (Lain and Meep). Atomsk recently picked up IC, and he's ranked second on the PR with M2k gone, under ADHD, who SUCKS against IC, and has yet to fight Atomsk's IC in tournament. Despite any MUs, IC still have a broken gimmick. THIS is the character I'll be watching closely with MK gone, not Snake. Blizzard is really broken, and IC can overcome bad MUs through desynching, and is STILL an underdeveloped character. You're going to have a job explaining to me why a top IC can't get around an annoying strategy when there are two of them.

D) Bad characters will still be bad and average characters will still be average with MK gone. Please stop arguing this. The ONLY character I imagine taking a significant boost with MK gone is Luigi. Other characters on the tier list will shift naturally, because characters like Mario and Sheik are underrated, while characters like Zelda and D3 are over-rated (in my opinion of course)

E) Marth will be S-tier with MK gone. The entire Marth metagame does in fact focus on beating Metaknight. With him gone, Marth can then focus on Snake and D3. Neo has explained to me quite convincingly how DK loses to Marth. I personally am extremely talented at the vs. D3 match-up. Here's the best part: I'm very good at the vs. Snake match-up, and I've only RECENTLY started studying it. Since there are no Snakes in New Jersey except YES! who does not play in tournament, and Inui who does indeed play Snake but has always used MK vs. me, I never really had a significant reason to study the match-up. Now that I've learned it halfway, I'm doing fine against Snakes, probably because the MU is even. Considering Neo's style, I significantly doubt he has a problem with Snake. RoyR has notable victories over Snakes back in the day, and as I said, MikeHaze recently beat Ally. D3 is decreasing in popularity, but if the Marth plays correctly, similarly to vs. Snake, he can 0-80 the character through good edge-guarding and juggling. Marth needs to avoid getting grabbed, but with proper stage control and zoning, this isn't an issue. D3 has 0 safe pokes (Ftilt can be PSed and punished on reaction), Dashing in and doing anything including shielding loses to pivot grab.

That leaves R.O.B. as potentially the only viable Marth counter. I currently think R.O.B. counters Marth, but I am extremely inexperienced in the MU, and other Marth's say it's even, so we'll see. Marth will easily be S-tier, and potentially the best character in the game, taking wins over Falco, and Wario.

If MK gets banned, I'm looking at Marth, IC, and Snake in no particular order for top 3 in S-tier. Falco, Wario, and Diddy right after probably ending the A tier. Both D3 and Olimar are over-rated IMO. D3 has exploitable weaknesses and really ban MUs in Olimar, Falco, and IC. Olimar is misunderstood as a character, and gets ***** by high priority sex kicks which go through all of his low priority attacks. Next time you fight an Olimar in tourney, and feel like you don't know what to do, choose MARIO and keep throwing Nair at them, and jabbing if you hit their shield, and see what happens. I can beat low/mid level Olimars with Link. Of course, Olimar's metagame may develop, and they'll find good use in whistle and their transcendent UpB, but that's theory craft for a negligible future.

tl;dr
Metaknight is possibly broken at top level, but it's impossible to tell, because the best players are currently quite obviously winning off of player skill.
 

Firus

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Well, the results are skewed anyway due to people 'soft banning' MK. The areas where this doesn't happen he is a plague.
So basically, you're saying that MK should be banned to save the community but you have no evidence to back up that he should be banned in the context of Brawl.
 

MarKO X

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There are 8 Sagats in the Top 15 in the Japanese rankings. Mago's Sagat is 1st followed by Daigo's Ryu.
hmmm... that's interesting...

well... if we had unified rankings in the US (unless we do and I don't know about it :dizzy: ) for Brawl, you don't think there'd be, say.... I dunno... six to eight MKs at the top 15?
 

Melomaniacal

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Lol he actually has disadvantages. Hilde and Kilik to name a few.

Simply put, he got banned because he does not belong with the rest of the characters.
The only character that doesn't belong with the rest is Snake, ban him.

Also, a character doesn't need strong counters to be balanced/not-broken.
 

Red Arremer

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well... if we had unified rankings in the US (unless we do and I don't know about it :dizzy: ) for Brawl, you don't think there'd be, say.... I dunno... six to eight MKs at the top 15?
No. I doubt that. I think it would be 3, at worst 4 Meta Knights in the Top 15.
 

Palpi

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Pierce Why Are You Soo Freaking Pro!

Oh and Pierce for proof of your first arguement. M2k is crazy *** good with snake according to Ksizle. You probably already know that, but others may not.
 
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