Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Avion]

The only stage I believe anyone really has a solid edge over MK is on Halberd.

But he has the home field advantage!

10sarcasms

 

[n88]

Ironic too.

That's mostly why.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm kinda back on the fence, because anti-ban has provided some amazing points.

namely the one of sagat being 8 of the top 15 in japan. that blew my mind.

lol, why, thank you.

 

[Pierce7d]

Oh, while we're talking about Snake's oki, will someone please explain to me why I wouldn't simply do a rising attack every time, until it shieldstabs? Can you perfect shield or spot dodge it on reaction, even if I delay it slightly, and still react to if I roll?

Also, wtf, I don't think MK loses on Halberd. Explain.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Oh, while we're talking about Snake's oki, will someone please explain to me why I wouldn't simply do a rising attack every time, until it shieldstabs? Can you perfect shield or spot dodge it on reaction, even if I delay it slightly, and still react to if I roll?

Also, wtf, I don't think MK loses on Halberd. Explain.

Halberd isn't really a counterpick, MK does least good on it.

 

[Clai]

alls you have to do is dair camp diddy and u win...

That's only if your name is DaPuffster.

Ther eis no such thing as the a no strategy character.

TORNADO TORNADO TORNADO TORNADO SHUTTLE LOOP SHUTTLE LOOP SHUTTLE LOOP GLIDE ATTACK DOWN-SMASH DOWN-SMASH

Get what I'm saying?

Synchro cat won ALL the national tournaments. Destroy tele DAD, GLadiator beasts and black wings, all of which were considered really friggin good.
The deck is EXTREMELY fast and consistent.

It ***** illegal decks that dont FTK.

only decks that are just as fast and consistent stand a reasonable chance, but even then the matchup typcallyis win by the S.C. decks.

I'm not with the times on Yu-gioh, so no comment.

The point was that unless people replicate it, its simply an exception to the rule.
And yes, Falcon gets beat out by Sonic. badly.

And my point is that as long as the matchup isn't heavily in one favor, the chances of other people replicating that become very high. But you're right, it has to actually be done first.

She only has one disadvantage which is to Yun dude.

And yet plenty of people don't pick Chun-Li in that game for likely the same reasons why people in Brawl don't always pick Metaknight. Besides, doesn't Chun-li destroy tournaments more than Metaknight has ever had?

Ankoku's and AA provide data that supports centralization in regards to tournaments. NOHING else. You'd ahve ot ask adumbrodeus about it. I only responded to a few points that weren't really related to the debate.
Why? Cause i suck at pro-ban, its not my positionm plus, other subjects are more interesting at this point.

Very well, I guess we'll just end it at that. It was fun while it lasted.

By the way, did you like the video?

 

[Remzi]

"Go as they should"? You mean "go as the super-scrubby-character boards think they should".

Match-ups aren't set in stone. Just because some people on character boards feel the need to decide that MK vs Snake is in MKs favour doesn't make it true.

So instead, I'll go by what 3 people on this site (including you), think.

1.) COUNTERPICKING IS NOT THE KEY TO THIS GAME
2.) MK can be counterpicked.



Or you just stay Snake and **** him lmao.

Counterpicking is a very large element of this game. Saying that it isn't is absurd. Against MK you can CP to give yourself a slight disadvantage at best or you can pick MK and go even (this seems to be the popular one).

Regarding that last statement.... LOL.

Snake ftilt anyone? Also sppd/range ratio isn't all. There's also dmg involved. Few of MKs moves deal more than 10% (this includes tornado if you can sdi, which you SHOULD). Snake ftilt comes out in 4 frames, deals 21% dmg and hits further than many other moves.

Also, who are you to decide what speed/range ratios a character "should" have. MK doesn't even have a projectile so he can still be outranged.

For safety, speed/range IS everything. And to top it off the disjointed hitboxes are incredible. Damage will come with time when you have a plethora of moves that are completely safe.

Snake's ftilt is one move, and an amazing move at that. That move is the biggest factor on why Snake has the best ground game. Unlike Snake, though, MK can cover himself from any situation with a move with speed/range that is just as good. Uair from below, Dair from up top or at an upper angle, dtilt on the ground, fair in the air in front.

Wow, what arrogance ... YOU ARE NOBODY. YOU HAVE NO SAYING ON WHAT CHARACTERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO.

Isn't that the premise of this whole banning argument? People deciding what should or should not be in the game (in this case Metaknight)?

None of MKs KO moves comes out under 5 frames. His fastest "KO move" hits on the 5th frame and is pretty harmless. Just learn to DI and you'll see the difference. Wolf can survive a FRESH dsmash in the center of BF at 180% and Wolf has only averagish weight and no "break" move á la bucket.

If MK can't get the gimp, he has promblems getting a KO unless you can't DI.

Nair comes out in 3 frames, Dsmash comes out in 5. Dsmash is unsafe on block and isn't all that great, but 5 frames is still absurdly quick for a move with that kind of range and knockback.

Still, it's not like he even needs to knock out with that gimping ability of his.

What of it? Two good, yet situational moves, that have good properties but also weaknesses (small hitboxes, VERY little damage...)

LOL, dtilt is anything but situational. That is MKs best option from a neutral stance. It has long range, is extremely fast, safe on block, and can be followed up very well.

 

[Kinzer]

A stage MK has a disadvantage on?

I don't know, I've heard some good things about YI: MAY-LAY! if it were legal.

Can anybody else confirm if that's true?

 

[etecoon]

Oh, while we're talking about Snake's oki, will someone please explain to me why I wouldn't simply do a rising attack every time, until it shieldstabs? Can you perfect shield or spot dodge it on reaction, even if I delay it slightly, and still react to if I roll?

by some % he can start pummeling you to stall and recharge his shield, someone should test how this works out...I think a lot of characters can be perfect shielded on reaction though, a lot of them attack away from snake before attacking towards him which gives him a ******** amount of time to react(like DDD)

 

[Divinokage]

A stage MK has a disadvantage on?

I don't know, I've heard some good things about YI: MAY-LAY! if it were legal.

Can anybody else confirm if that's true?

I think Brinstar is terrible for MK =P

 

[Red Arremer]

And yet plenty of people don't pick Chun-Li in that game for likely the same reasons why people in Brawl don't always pick Metaknight. Besides, doesn't Chun-li destroy tournaments more than Metaknight has ever had?

Chun is heavily dominating in Third Strike, yup.

 

[C.box]

"Go as they should"? You mean "go as the super-scrubby-character boards think they should".

Match-ups aren't set in stone. Just because some people on character boards feel the need to decide that MK vs Snake is in MKs favour doesn't make it true.

When everyone is supposively in his favor that causes a problem.

1.) COUNTERPICKING IS NOT THE KEY TO THIS GAME
2.) MK can be counterpicked.

Please explain to me how mk can be counterpicked

Or you just stay Snake and **** him lmao.

Too bad snake is 50:50 at best currently

Snake ftilt anyone? Also sppd/range ratio isn't all. There's also dmg involved. Few of MKs moves deal more than 10% (this includes tornado if you can sdi, which you SHOULD). Snake ftilt comes out in 4 frames, deals 21% dmg and hits further than many other moves.

Only the first hit of snake's ftilt comes out in frame 4 and that is outranged by marth's dtilt which is outranged by mk's 3 FRAME dtilt (yeah it's faste rthen snake's ftilt and has more range then the first hit) the second hit supposively coems out in frame 18 (not sure I remember readin it but eh.)

Also, who are you to decide what speed/range ratios a character "should" have. MK doesn't even have a projectile so he can still be outranged.

So a dtilt that comes out in 3 frames and hits with slighly less range then marth's tipper fsmash isn't stupidly amazing. And who care about him not having a projectile when vs falco when he gets in falco's face falco has NOTHING against a 3 frame move outranging him.

Wow, what arrogance ... YOU ARE NOBODY. YOU HAVE NO SAYING ON WHAT CHARACTERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO.

And who are you to tell him he is a nobody?

None of MKs KO moves comes out under 5 frames. His fastest "KO move" hits on the 5th frame and is pretty harmless. Just learn to DI and you'll see the difference. Wolf can survive a FRESH dsmash in the center of BF at 180% and Wolf has only averagish weight and no "break" move á la bucket.

Dsmash and nair, 5 frames and 3 frames eitehr way mk's kill moves aren't the problem so I will agree with you here.

If MK can't get the gimp, he has promblems getting a KO unless you can't DI.

k.

What of it? Two good, yet situational moves, that have good properties but also weaknesses (small hitboxes, VERY little damage...)

UAir and Dtilt DO NOT have small hitboxes and who cares if its little damage when uair is THE best juggle move in the game allowing it to EASILY rack up damage with its 2 frame hitbox coming out and the overall move ending on frame 13 meaning it can easily ***** ADs, and dtilt with a very good chance of tripping that can lead to a grab which can lead to 20%+ of damage and then there is also dtilt locks.

Answers in bold, either way i'm anti ban so lol.

 

[OverLade]

Oh, while we're talking about Snake's oki, will someone please explain to me why I wouldn't simply do a rising attack every time, until it shieldstabs? Can you perfect shield or spot dodge it on reaction, even if I delay it slightly, and still react to if I roll?

Also, wtf, I don't think MK loses on Halberd. Explain.

Not loses, but I think its the only stage where anyone has an edge over him. Snake/D3/Wario/heavy characters that kill off the top of the stage do really well there. Its a perfectly fine stage for him, but I think its the only stage that gives other characters more edges then it gives him.

 

[Kinzer]

I think Brinstar is terrible for MK =P

Okay, that's cool if that happens to be true, but what about Yoshi's Isle?

 

[Tyr_03]

You shouldn't expect to just always win on your counterpick because of the stage lol. Metaknight does decently well on pretty much every stage but that doesn't mean he's just as good on each one. There are ones that he's worse on than others and that's the best you get. Get over it. Snake is a pretty **** similar situation.

Halberd is considered a CP against Metaknight because it has a low ceiling. The same is true of YI: Melee which is usually banned.

 

[Inui]

have you looked at DDD's get ups? his roll behind is the only thing that's remotely difficult to regrab him from on reaction, I think that at some point snake will beat DDD when snake's start utilizing this ****

another thing on this...

true but I'd think he has more experience in the matchup given how snake/DDD heavy florida is, afro says a lot of things about that matchup are only really done in florida right now...remember that afro beat ally in a MM at apex, florida has lots of good snake's to ditto...

I agree that Snake will beat Dedede and every other character eventualy. I said this over a year ago and still stand by it. Other players, like teh_spamerer, feel the same way.

 

[Pierce7d]

by some % he can start pummeling you to stall and recharge his shield, someone should test how this works out...I think a lot of characters can be perfect shielded on reaction though, a lot of them attack away from snake before attacking towards him which gives him a ******** amount of time to react(like DDD)

That's at really late %s that the player won't mash out in one pummel, and by that time, we're talking about a K.O. on Olimar. At low percents, pummel isn't an option. What does Olimar's rising attack look like?

I think Brinstar is terrible for MK =P

Fair theory. Please elaborate so we can discuss.

I agree that Snake will beat Dedede and every other character eventualy. I said this over a year ago and still stand by it. Other players, like teh_spamerer, feel the same way.

I feel that eventually, Snake will graduate to creating broken walls, but simultaneously getting ***** and losing all of his options after one hit. He'll be the Shedinja of this game. Ice Climbers will be similar, killing you after a hit, and having broken walls. Both characters are top 3 in this game.

 

[iRJi]

A stage MK has a disadvantage on?

I don't know, I've heard some good things about YI: MAY-LAY! if it were legal.

Can anybody else confirm if that's true?

MK having a bad stage is lol. I have stated this before, but since some people aren't going threw the whole thread, I again will just repost it.

MK does have bad stages, but it is character dependent. Diddy on FD would be a fast and easy example. The thing about C/P is that there is infact a chance to ban a stage, and to also strike one. MK does have a good advantage on most neutrals, and the one's he can lose to because of it being character dependent can simply be striked.

Example: Diddy vs MK
Diddy would want Fd as his first pick, due to the fact he has a large and better chance of beating him. Arguably one of his best stages to play an MK on.

MK strike's FD. Diddy loses all of advantages on neutrals. Battle field is not that good for Diddy. Lylat and Yoshi's fall into the same boat. Next best pick would be Smashville, but that is actually one of MK's best stages.

A good decent post on proof would be here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost....&postcount=626

Now lets talk about C/Ping Mk on a stage. Can you name 2 stages that MK can not fight on against a character? Because of that he can simply ban and it locks off the limits of what can happen.

In most cases, MK will have a C/P stage that is Character dependent, but also in these cases he only has one stage that can screw him over. That is where the ban comes in, and you can simply ban the stage from being used.

Of course, other characters float in the same boat when it comes to this situation, but other characters can be C/P'd by character, still giving them a slight advantage if they wanted it. MK however, still goes even to positive on every character in game. That Plus the fact that he can eliminate most of his bad stages in most cases, makes it a double threat. Most characters, infact, all other characters, don't have the luxury of both blessings.

 

[Red Arremer]

You shouldn't expect to just always win on your counterpick because of the stage lol. Metaknight does decently well on pretty much every stage but that doesn't mean he's just as good on each one. There are ones that he's worse on than others and that's the best you get. Get over it. Snake is a pretty **** similar situation.

Yea. Despite what many people from the Snake boards say, Rainbow Cruise is not as bad for Snake.

 

[phi1ny3]

Okay, that's cool if that happens to be true, but what about Yoshi's Isle?

Yeah, I could've sworn that YI was not so good for MK.

 

[Masmasher@]

Wow same pattern as last ban thread fallacies, arguements on correction then suddently talk about matchups.
Why are you talking about matchups NOW especially at this deciding poll.
This proves how ragged the character boards are.

 

[Divinokage]

That's at really late %s that the player won't mash out in one pummel, and by that time, we're talking about a K.O. on Olimar. At low percents, pummel isn't an option. What does Olimar's rising attack look like?



Fair theory. Please elaborate so we can discuss.

Well it's just actually my favorite stage in melee and in brawl.. so I usually **** anyone on that stage lol. Well basically all the "Stuff" around the level, Mk can't really spam tornado as he will lag if he hits the little stuff around the stage and that gives the opponent more opportunity to get in MK. Actually with any move if MK hits the "Stuff" his frames are lowered automatically.. and since the stage is small it's definitely going to happen. You can definitely pick a good character on that stage like Ike or something and **** really hard and take advantage of the "Stuff". I honestly don't think MK can take advantage of that. Also MK is sometimes forced to stay up in the air because of the lava, so his recovery is also very limited. Pretty much that.

 

[fkacyan]

I think Brinstar is terrible for MK =P

Are you ****ting me? Very close blastzones, things with which to DOUBLE OR TRIPLE the length of his active hitboxes, lots of ledges to make spamming shuttle loop safe?

Brinstar is one of his best stages.

 

[etecoon]

That's at really late %s that the player won't mash out in one pummel, and by that time, we're talking about a K.O. on Olimar. At low percents, pummel isn't an option. What does Olimar's rising attack look like?

olimar swings at snake and then away, the hitbox is out on frame 15. candy claims that perfect tech chasing an olimar is totally feasible, I don't really see it on him, but now that I've really looked at it in training, I really think DDD is pretty ****ed by this when snake's start reacting to him instead of even trying to predict, it's totally unnecessary.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Clai the vid is awesome.

 

[Divinokage]

Are you ****ting me? Very close blastzones, things with which to DOUBLE OR TRIPLE the length of his active hitboxes, lots of ledges to make spamming shuttle loop safe?

Brinstar is one of his best stages.

There's only 2 ledges. Lava makes the loop not safe at all and also you just need to stay away if he spams like an idiot on the "Stuff". Snake ***** MK on Brinstar for sure.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Are you ****ting me? Very close blastzones, things with which to DOUBLE OR TRIPLE the length of his active hitboxes, lots of ledges to make spamming shuttle loop safe?

Brinstar is one of his best stages.

Can't argue with that...

 

[Fatmanonice]

Uh, you do realize that Fiction lost to Tyrant immediately after that? MK still won the tournament.

Ooh, a good Peach player. What are your thoughts on Peach if Metaknight was banned? Peach is probably my least favorite character so I don't research her nearly as much as everyone else so I'm not entirely up to date on how she does against all the other top/high tier characters. I speculate that she still has some bad match ups that keep her from becoming viable but I want the opinion of an authority on the matter.

 

[iRJi]

There's only 2 ledges. Lava makes the loop not safe at all and also you just need to stay away if he spams like an idiot on the "Stuff". Snake ***** MK on Brinstar for sure.

He meant platforms. Anyway, it is a good stage for MK. Its a minimized battle field with a stage hazard. Putting MK in close quarters only benefits him for the fact he doesn't have to move around as much to get to his opponent.

 

[Omni]

Are you purposefully mixing up 2 concepts? Burden of proof and majority vote are in no way related. Something could be proven consequently and it being split down the middle could still happen. Don't do that, it's ridiculous.

If you want to say that the pro-ban side has never gotten 2/3 of the vote, just say that. Definition of "winning" and "winning by a large enough margin to constitute a change" are also blatantly different.

I stand by what I said.

A "win" for pro-ban side is 2/3. Anything below it is a loss since MK won't be banned in those conditions.

 

[Pierce7d]

Well it's just actually my favorite stage in melee and in brawl.. so I usually **** anyone on that stage lol. Well basically all the "Stuff" around the level, Mk can't really spam tornado as he will lag if he hits the little stuff around the stage and that gives the opponent more opportunity to get in MK. Actually with any move if MK hits the "Stuff" his frames are lowered automatically.. and since the stage is small it's definitely going to happen. You can definitely pick a good character on that stage like Ike or something and **** really hard and take advantage of the "Stuff". I honestly don't think MK can take advantage of that. Also MK is sometimes forced to stay up in the air because of the lava, so his recovery is also very limited. Pretty much that.

Fair argument. It's funny, because I think once people discover that you can repeatedly footstool your opponent back into acid for stupid combo damage, Brinstar will either be banned, or become a very leveling stage. It is true that the extra hurtboxes on Brinstar and the sloped terrain don't really compliment MK, but I feel the passable floor as well as the platform formations boost his camping.

Close Blastzones work both ways, since MK dies earlier too, though it is arguable that it helps MK more because of the BKB on his Shuttle Loop and his ability to net easier K.O.s from edgeguarding.

EDIT: Oh btw RJ, Diddy does fine on Battlefield btw. They have graduated past the point of "OMG, my banana landed on a platform"

 

[iRJi]

EDIT: Oh btw RJ, Diddy does fine on Battlefield btw. They have graduated past the point of "OMG, my banana landed on a platform"

Oo, I am completely aware lol. It's still a better stage to fight against Diddy on then FD. It was just to prove my point that most things are only situational by character choice.

Edit: Also, I did state that it is in most cases, not all =]

 

[fkacyan]

Fair argument. It's funny, because I think once people discover that you can repeatedly footstool your opponent back into acid for stupid combo damage, Brinstar will either be banned, or become a very leveling stage. It is true that the extra hurtboxes on Brinstar and the sloped terrain don't really compliment MK, but I feel the passable floor as well as the platform formations boost his camping.

Close Blastzones work both ways, since MK dies earlier too, though it is arguable that it helps MK more because of the BKB on his Shuttle Loop and his ability to net easier K.O.s from edgeguarding.

EDIT: Oh btw RJ, Diddy does fine on Battlefield btw. They have graduated past the point of "OMG, my banana landed on a platform"

Pierce.

If you F-smash the little balls, his entire hitbox (Read: Huge arc around his front) stays there for like 3x as long. It has to one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.

 

[Melomaniacal]

EDIT: Oh btw RJ, Diddy does fine on Battlefield btw. They have graduated past the point of "OMG, my banana landed on a platform"

I was literally in the process of replying to that, and I saw this. Beat me to it.

Platforms can be a huge help to Diddy. As long as Diddy controls the main bottom stage (which is entirely possible), the platforms really do nothing but help. It's amazing how much space you can control by throwing bananas up through platforms. Landing on a platform becomes a trip. They end up just helping (as long as Diddy maintains control on the bottom).

 

[Divinokage]

Fair argument. It's funny, because I think once people discover that you can repeatedly footstool your opponent back into acid for stupid combo damage, Brinstar will either be banned, or become a very leveling stage. It is true that the extra hurtboxes on Brinstar and the sloped terrain don't really compliment MK, but I feel the passable floor as well as the platform formations boost his camping.

Close Blastzones work both ways, since MK dies earlier too, though it is arguable that it helps MK more because of the BKB on his Shuttle Loop and his ability to net easier K.O.s from edgeguarding.

That stage also has moderately low ceiling. I definitely know that Snake can take advantage of that stage way more than MK.. since the lava will actually help Snake to recover most of the times and **** his hitboxes goes so far with the Tilts when you hit the "Stuff" You won't even see it coming, and be like WTF?? Like imagine a super lagged up tilt from Snake. lol. I think Ike and Ganon does amazing on that stage too.. uhh.. I wish I had more experience to talk about this better lol. I know Wario does amazing too, maybe D3.. I know marth sucks on it.. diddy too.. uhh.. what about maybe Rob too?

Pierce.

If you F-smash the little balls, his entire hitbox (Read: Huge arc around his front) stays there for like 3x as long. It has to one of the stupidest things I've ever seen.

Just downair that **** then, don't be an idiot.

 

[bobson]

I find it hilarious that people usually ban all of the stages Metaknight doesn't do as well on.

 

[Palpi]

For neutrals for diddy isn't the best to worst, FD,smashville,battlefield,lylat,yoshis?

Melo, I know that is your list I think.

*off topic@Melo, holy **** its raining hard.

 

[etecoon]

so I just tested get up attack repeatedly on an open shield, it will never shield stab snake, it will break the shield after taking in the neighborhood of 60-70%, and snake can of course ftilt the last time instead. so even without *perfect* shielding, snake might be able to 0 to kill % olimar.

 

[Melomaniacal]

For neutrals for diddy isn't the best to worst, FD,smashville,battlefield,lylat,yoshis?

Pretty much. Lylat and Yoshi's are pretty close, but I would say Yoshi's is the worst. That could be argued though.

Yes. It is raining hard.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Most if not all aerial fighters have the advantage on Brinstar.