Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Palpi]

lmfao. I actually called. I was all like... "sup"

 

[Rykoshet]

It's called "reality". Something that pro-banners dislike.

Again, in what world? MK is incapable of being counterpicked, the hell is wrong with you.

 

[fkacyan]

Actually, it's always been shield stabbing. Shield poking was just another term added way back in Melee days, when Marth would hit you because he poked through your shield with dtilt. Since then, both shield stabbing and shield poking have been floating around, although they both mean hitting your opponent's exposed hurtbox while they were shielding.


Also, Cyanide, why did you put the phrase "most characters" in quotes when I had not used that phrase?

Admittedly, I wasn't reading the quote and typed from the top of my head. @_@

 

[fkacyan]

Again, in what world? MK is incapable of being counterpicked, the hell is wrong with you.

I would define a counterpick as anything that increases your chances of winning a matchup, and with that definition I would argue he can be CPd.

He is not like other characters in that he does not have a hard counter character, however.

 

[Master Raven]

Kage I know that lol I never said dittos meant who was better >_>

 

[Palpi]

7 min double post are legit imo.

 

[Elder Sister]

wow this morning this thread had about 200 pagesO_O

 

[Espy Rose]

The pro-ban side needs a 2/3 majority for Meta Knight to get banned, as is the procedure for everything the SBR recommends be banned.

Well, this is a lost cause. Time to pack up our stuff, pro-bans. No way in hell we're gonna win by that much.

 

[fkacyan]

7 min double post are legit imo.

I completely expected there to be another post in that interim.

 

[Rykoshet]

I would define a counterpick as anything that increases your chances of winning a matchup, and with that definition I would argue he can be CPd.

He is not like other characters in that he does not have a hard counter character, however.

I define a counterpick as something that clearly gives the opponent a clear disadvantage. A counterpick is taking wario to FD, or falco to delfino. If the best you get out of a counterpick is an even match, that's not so much a counterpick as it is just picking a situation where you're not straight ****ed by the numbers.

 

[Red Arremer]

7 min double post are legit imo.

He probably thought that while he was typing that up, there would people post in between. Cause that'd be usual.

 

[etecoon]

Oh, while we're talking about Snake's oki, will someone please explain to me why I wouldn't simply do a rising attack every time, until it shieldstabs? Can you perfect shield or spot dodge it on reaction, even if I delay it slightly, and still react to if I roll?

Also, wtf, I don't think MK loses on Halberd. Explain.

so I already posted how ineffective this was, but another thing is that you can roll to the ledge after a few grabs usually and then you aren't in tech chase position anymore...not that being snake edge guarded is a great situation either but it effectively nullifies any notion of tech chasing people to death :/

 

[Palpi]

Ryko, anyone can argue 6-4 being extremely skill based and not a clear advantage.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Again, in what world? MK is incapable of being counterpicked, the hell is wrong with you.

First off, GET ***** BY THIO.

2nd off MK looses on some stages, genius. Snake wins on FD/Halberd. Therefore MK is capable of being CP'd by Snake, get *****.

 

[Rykoshet]

Ryko, anyone can argue 6-4 being extremely skill based and not a clear advantage.

Palpi, marth vs ike is a 6-4 and is very skill based. It doesn't change that BY DESIGN the 6-4 means that the marth shouldn't lose, period. (Okay it means that out of 10 he should lose 4 times but that's generally not how it works)

First off, GET ***** BY THIO.

The hell did he ****? We're having a discussion about the definition of a counterpick.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Ryko, anyone can argue 6-4 being extremely skill based and not a clear advantage.

It's a soft-counter. You still have to be the better player, and know the match up to win.

 

[fkacyan]

I define a counterpick as something that clearly gives the opponent a clear disadvantage. A counterpick is taking wario to FD, or falco to delfino. If the best you get out of a counterpick is an even match, that's not so much a counterpick as it is just picking a situation where you're not straight ****ed by the numbers.

Snake taking MK to Halberd is almost certainly Snake's advantage; however, in the context of what I said, I'm saying MK loses specific matchups on specific stages, as opposed to just losing to a character or a stage.

 

[Rykoshet]

Snake taking MK to Halberd is almost certainly Snake's advantage; however, in the context of what I said, I'm saying MK loses specific matchups on specific stages, as opposed to just losing to a character or a stage.

And in a game where your best option as a character can and will likely be eliminated by a stage ban? Counterpicking MK is a myth unless your counterpick is "a flat neutral" and even then not necessarily because of the 3 that come to mind MK happens to do best on the one that is a mix of the other 2.

 

[Palpi]

That is why numbers are fairly dumb to an extent. I don't think the best ike whoever it may be, kirk or san or w/e can beat ADHD or ninja link 4 of 10

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I would define a counterpick as anything that increases your chances of winning a matchup, and with that definition I would argue he can be CPd.

He is not like other characters in that he does not have a hard counter character, however.

I define it like Ryko; if you CP a stage, you should get an advantage out of it.

Well, this is a lost cause. Time to pack up our stuff, pro-bans. No way in hell we're gonna win by that much.

Exactly. RAAAAAGE. Why 2/3s? Isn't a good 5% majority 4 times in a row coupled with sufficient evidence for his banning good enough?

I define a counterpick as something that clearly gives the opponent a clear disadvantage. A counterpick is taking wario to FD, or falco to delfino. If the best you get out of a counterpick is an even match, that's not so much a counterpick as it is just picking a situation where you're not straight ****ed by the numbers.

That.

 

[Red Arremer]

I define a counterpick as something that clearly gives the opponent a clear disadvantage. A counterpick is taking wario to FD, or falco to delfino. If the best you get out of a counterpick is an even match, that's not so much a counterpick as it is just picking a situation where you're not straight ****ed by the numbers.

A game being played competitively is about finding out whose skill is better. In the ideal scenario, everything would be completely balanced to the point of there being everything completely even.

Since this scenario is impossible in any fighting game with a handful of characters (technically speaking, even 2 characters would be unbalanced, but they still could be so close to each other that it doesn't matter), we are settling with the CP solution.

Counterpicking your enemy is a strategy in order to put yourself into a more favorable position. If you are in a disadvantage and pick something to be even, you are in a better position than before.
If you are in a disadvantage and pick something to be in an advantage, this is favourable, but not necessary.

I repeat, a competitively played game desires to find out the better player in a preferably even setting, not the guy who can choose something that makes him fare better.

Exactly. RAAAAAGE. Why 2/3s? Isn't a good 5% majority 4 times in a row coupled with sufficient evidence for his banning good enough?

Counter question:
Why should a decision that would cause a huge impact on the community be taken from a mere 5% majority?
Banning Meta Knight would hurt the stances of 45% of the community. That's not a minority, that's almost half of the community.

 

[CR4SH]

Snake taking MK to Halberd is almost certainly Snake's advantage; however, in the context of what I said, I'm saying MK loses specific matchups on specific stages, as opposed to just losing to a character or a stage.

The bigger issue is this. Who in the cast can't mk cp ****? Between cruise, norfair, fo, brinstar and others, he has a stage to put any character at a serious disadvantage. On the other hand, how many characters can cp **** mk? None, most have to take him to a stage where its not QUITE as difficult a matchup.

In other words, mk has 2 neutrals and a hard cp. Thats what breaking the cp system means. No matter what you do with your cps, if you're nl and play every character on every stage. If you meet a MK in tournament he's looking at 2 neutrals and a CP.

 

[Palpi]

I repeat, a competitively played game desires to find out the better player in a preferably even setting, not the guy who can choose something that makes him fare better.

Good jorb spadefox!

 

[Supersun]

Exactly. RAAAAAGE. Why 2/3s? Isn't a good 5% majority 4 times in a row coupled with sufficient evidence for his banning good enough?

I think it's based off that the US cant change an amendment without a 2/3 vote(iirc).

 

[Rykoshet]

I repeat, a competitively played game desires to find out the better player in a preferably even setting, not the guy who can choose something that makes him fare better.

You're going to say that while completely ignoring that one character by default is often at a distinct advantage and as a result you're never finding out that case unless you fight on the stage that evens it out, which is a favourable situation given to someone who has already lost, right?

 

[Tyr_03]

You only have to win 2 out of 3 games. So having 2 neutral stages technically makes things even and you should win if you're the more skilled player.

I agree that MK is jacked on Rainbow Cruise and other stages and it's annoying as ****.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I am stunned that people think the poll should be the deciding factor.

Are you kidding me?

 

[Red Arremer]

You're going to say that while completely ignoring that one character by default is often at a distinct advantage and as a result you're never finding out that case unless you fight on the stage that evens it out, which is a favourable situation given to someone who has already lost, right?

No, I was opposing your definition of counterpicking. It was completely unrelated to the topic of Meta Knight.

 

[Rykoshet]

You only have to win 2 out of 3 games. So having 2 neutral stages technically makes things even and you should win if you're the more skilled player.

Name one character that does equally well against MK on FD and Battlefield. I'm eliminating smashville from the equation because an MK shouldn't be losing there.

No, I was opposing your definition of counterpicking. It was completely unrelated to the topic of Meta Knight.

It started from me saying that MK couldn't be counterpicked. It was in no way unrelated unless you ignore the context of why it was brought up at all, but thanks.

 

[meta master]

I would define a counterpick as anything that increases your chances of winning a matchup, and with that definition I would argue he can be CPd.

He is not like other characters in that he does not have a hard counter character, however.

Very serious argument. What ever the result, I'm enjoying this debate. I take it that this will be discussed on the SMYN podcast again right before the results are announced? Another debate podcast, so to speak.


As for counter-picks, my verdict is that a good, solid Marth can really give a Meta-Knight a run for his money. Counter is THE most annoying thing in the world and can really ruin your game given the chance. And dolphin slash is soooo viable. His up-B can go through a lot of Meta's attacks and has decent knockback. since it isn't used a lot, it comes out as a surprise and can take a meta off guard. Even more dangerous? A Marth that counters off ground (when Meta's recovering) and still gets back on stage. This prevents you from using a large amount of your moves with out killing you/both of you. And why can't you jump around, above him? Because he jumps and them falls, giving him a height advantage so he can spike you.

 

[OFY]

First off, GET ***** BY THIO.

2nd off MK looses on some stages, genius. Snake wins on FD/Halberd. Therefore MK is capable of being CP'd by Snake, get *****.

Holy ****. It's spelled lose

not loose.

I can't believe you don't know the difference.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Counter question:
Why should a decision that would cause a huge impact on the community be taken from a mere 5% majority?
Banning Meta Knight would hurt the stances of 45% of the community. That's not a minority, that's almost half of the community.

Actually never mind yeah that was stupid. I have been running on like 3 hours of sleep here.

 

[iRJi]

It's a soft-counter. You still have to be the better player, and know the match up to win.

Even a soft- counter is still a counter however.

 

[Palpi]

I am stunned that people think the poll should be the deciding factor.

Are you kidding me?

No I am not kidding. fight me

 

[Rykoshet]

Counter is THE most annoying thing in the world and can really ruin your game given the chance.

...

Really?

 

[Red Arremer]

It started from me saying that MK couldn't be counterpicked. It was in no way unrelated unless you ignore the context of why it was brought up at all, but thanks.

If you can counterpick yourself into an even position, this is all you actually need.
There is no need to be in an actual advantage.

 

[iRJi]

If you can counterpick yourself into an even position, this is all you actually need.
There is no need to be in an actual advantage.

That, is now incorrect. Are you also saying that it is safe (or fair) for your opponent to have an advantage on you for at least 1/3rd of the set, and all you can do is counter even with him?

 

[Rykoshet]

If you can counterpick yourself into an even position, this is all you actually need.
There is no need to be in an actual advantage.

Yeah except for how it works against every other character in the game. Ike has an 8-2 disadvantage against olimar and I can still put him in a 4-6/45-55 on at least one stage...

 

[Melomaniacal]

Even a soft- counter is still a counter however.

Yes, but a handful of soft-counters is not broken.

 

[Espy Rose]

Counter question:
Why should a decision that would cause a huge impact on the community be taken from a mere 5% majority?
Banning Meta Knight would hurt the stances of 45% of the community. That's not a minority, that's almost half of the community.

I'm not gonna say that we should judge by a teeny 5% majority.
I'm just gonna say that the Pro-ban side winning by a 2/3 majority is impossible. Everyone knows this.

Oh, and regardless of what happens to Meta Knight, it's affecting ~50% of the community's stance.
At least, I would think so.