Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Rykoshet]

That is why numbers are fairly dumb to an extent. I don't think the best ike whoever it may be, kirk or san or w/e can beat ADHD or ninja link 4 of 10

Also if you're going to name drop people or a matchup try not doing it in a matchup that isn't exactly all that bad. I've played both of them, ike diddy is actually quite a bit easier to fight than ike marth.

 

[iRJi]

Yes, but a handful of soft-counters is not broken.

True, but the thing about it is your only option is even or a soft counter in this situation. Also read above post to Spadefox about what I said about him being C/P'd even.

 

[yellowroy]

Dam scrubs don't ban him..

 

[meta master]

...

Really?

You try it. You're doing some insane combo or racking up damage and bam. Counter. You have to start over and let the flow return. You opponent has a slight mental advantage during that time. Compare it to the cape. It's startup time vs. counter's. Throw it in enough and you will find your self hating it.

 

[Red Arremer]

That, is now incorrect. Are you also saying that it is safe (or fair) for your opponent to have an advantage on you for at least 1/3rd of the set, and all you can do is counter even with him?

If you can't stand being losing the first set because of whatever reason, play Diddy. He is even with Meta Knight on pretty much every neutral stage.
Additionally, there's stage-striking, too.

You can win the first set easily by skill, then.

I repeat: Counterpicking is not about putting yourself into the ADVANTAGE over another player, it's about putting yourself into a FAVOURABLE POSITION.

Yeah except for how it works against every other character in the game. Ike has an 8-2 disadvantage against olimar and I can still put him in a 4-6 on at least one stage...

Well, good for Ike then.

It still doesn't make counterpicking necessary to win. I repeat, CPing is a strategy to put yourself into a favourable position, NOT to gain the advantage.

Oh, and regardless of what happens to Meta Knight, it's affecting ~50% of the community's stance.
At least, I would think so.

In a decision of changing something, and there is no clear majority, the status quo is preferred.

 

[Rykoshet]

You try it. You're doing some insane combo or racking up damage and bam. Counter. You have to start over and let the flow return. You opponent has a slight mental advantage during that time. Compare it to the cape. It's startup time vs. counter's. Throw it in enough and you will find your self hating it.

You know how you beat counter?

I'm gonna give you a quick and easy lesson on how to win against counter. Note that this works well for spot dodges and air dodges too.

You wait half a second. Voila, the move is now completely and utterly useless. If you were using a string of moves that had 4 frames in between which marth could activate counter, chances are your *** already got dolphin slashed.

 

[Palpi]

Also if you're going to name drop people or a matchup try not doing it in a matchup that isn't exactly all that bad. I've played both of them, ike diddy is actually quite a bit easier to fight than ike marth.

I know it isn't that bad. I just don't think given players at the top of the current metagame could do what I previously said.

 

[Dekillsage]

vote yes 4 ban :/

 

[iRJi]

I'm not gonna say that we should judge by a teeny 5% majority.
I'm just gonna say that the Pro-ban side winning by a 2/3 majority is impossible. Everyone knows this.

Oh, and regardless of what happens to Meta Knight, it's affecting ~50% of the community's stance.
At least, I would think so.

Top statement is most likely true. It really is almost impossible, but it is still probable. For me anyways, this is more then just getting him banned. I am stating to people who don't think he is ban worthy why he should be considered to be. Even if we lose the argument, having people change their minds about this debate is a decent reward for me.

and your 2nd statement is also completely true.

 

[meta master]

If you can't stand being losing the first set because of whatever reason, play Diddy. He is even with Meta Knight on pretty much every neutral stage.
Additionally, there's stage-striking, too.

You can win the first set easily by skill, then.

I repeat: Counterpicking is not about putting yourself into the ADVANTAGE over another player, it's about putting yourself into a FAVOURABLE POSITION.

It still doesn't make counterpicking necessary to win. I repeat, CPing is a strategy to put yourself into a favourable position, NOT to gain the advantage.

That's true. If CPing a character was all that was needed to win then skill wouldn't play a large factor would it?

 

[Melomaniacal]

True, but the thing about it is your only option is even or a soft counter in this situation. Also read above post to Spadefox about what I said about him being C/P'd even.

An even match up is all you need. At that point, you're just being lazy. Get better than your opponent in that match up, and beat him.

And about your other post: Well, I was going to talk about Diddy, but Spadefox beat me to it.
Well, is it fair? No, it's not. Does "fairness" matter? Not really. Fighting games are not balanced, things won't be fair.


Spadefox: I love you.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Uh, there wasn't a single Sagat in the top 8 at Evo.

I hate when people talk about **** they don't know anything about.

Sagat wasn't in the top 8 at Evo because Sagat is "soft-banned" in sf4. He's not really "banned," but good players don't use him because he's so good that it eliminates the competition aspect of the game. Anyone who uses him is bad enough that they'd stand no chance at winning a tournament that size anyway. Sagat is still #1 in the game and if a good player picked him up and used him he'd be pretty much unstoppable like M2k is in Brawl.

Unfortunately this community is terrible. Most of you skimmed the "scrub" and "ban" sections of Sirlin's ptw guide one time and drew your conclusions that way, and there is no way in hell we could get anyone to agree on a soft ban because people want money. That's the entire reason m2k plays MK, don't let anyone fool you. He doesn't even like brawl, as he has said before and only plays the game for cash. If this were the sf4 community, MK wouldn't be placing top 8 at evo either.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If you can counterpick yourself into an even position, this is all you actually need.
There is no need to be in an actual advantage.

But the thing I find annoying there is that a lot of people use MK as the way to go neutral. Many can argue that the others that go even with him are easily stage dependent.

Falco requires a CG and flat stage. YI is troublesome for Falco at times.
Snake vs MK depends upon if MK can ever gimp SNake.
MK vs Diddy is stage dependent
MK vs Wario, I am not sure there.

So even if you go neutral against him with some character, MK's ability to ban stages and CP can still put him in the lead.

Plus, if the MK your facing is a main and gives your main (has a disadvantage) and you want to switch to MK, your still more likely to lose in a the logic that the solo mainer of a character is greater than your secondary ability to main them.

Either way, MK is more than likely going to hold the upper hand in any set. All CP will allow you to do is limit how much of a disadvantage you have. I can never see anyone gaining an advantage.

 

[iRJi]

If you can't stand being losing the first set because of whatever reason, play Diddy. He is even with Meta Knight on pretty much every neutral stage.
Additionally, there's stage-striking, too.

You can win the first set easily by skill, then.

I repeat: Counterpicking is not about putting yourself into the ADVANTAGE over another player, it's about putting yourself into a FAVOURABLE POSITION.

Yes, but what I am also saying is that while you Can put yourself in a favorable position, at most it can only be a 50:50, while on the other side he has a chance to put you in a reasonable worse scenario.

 

[WeXzuZ]

After reading the arguments through, I have come to the conclusion that Meta Knight should be banned just like some stages are.

But as the stages that are banned, if both players agree to play on said stage, you may play on it. Now putting this rule for Meta Knight will allow us to play him if both players agree to use him if they want to. I am a Meta Knight player, I used to main him - but reading the arguments for the ban, reading the facts, he simply is armed to the teeth with attacks to make him shine in any match.
Speaking of stages, it is said that Meta Knight does not have a lot of stages on which he plays bad on, which makes it even harder to choose a stage/character combination to actually defeat a Meta Knight.

Match ups are the main factor since no character is able to put an advantage over him at all. Snake does have bad matchups (according to the Snake boards: D3 and Olimar to name two). This does not mean that the game should be played like a Rock-Paper-Scissor game.

The game has been out for over a year now, which means that we should now have an idea of the main techniques there are to learn, making research almost hopeless when thinking of a strategy to defeat said character.

Please ban him, but for all the Meta Knight mainers - make it quick and painless.

Note: I have by accident voted against the ban, but in the long end - I think Meta Knight will be banned because of before mentioned arguments.

 

[Rykoshet]

An even match up is all you need. At that point, you're just being lazy.

Oh get out with that ****. Any snake that takes you to halberd is being lazy. Any ike that takes you to delfino is being lazy, any fox that takes you to FD is being lazy, marth battlefield etc, are you really about to state that the advantage given to someone who has already lost a match is due to laziness? It's called not making a bad situation worse. Counterpicking aims to gives a clear advantage to the loser of the match, only one character in the game takes this and throws it out the window. That's not laziness on the previous loser's part, being able to look at list of 15 some odd stages, ban the single one you may have trouble on, then have at the very worst a 50/50 matchup on your hands is far more lazy.

 

[Shiri]

I hate when people talk about **** they don't know anything about.

Sagat wasn't in the top 8 at Evo because Sagat is "soft-banned" in sf4. He's not really "banned," but good players don't use him because he's so good that it eliminates the competition aspect of the game. Anyone who uses him is bad enough that they'd stand no chance at winning a tournament that size anyway. Sagat is still #1 in the game and if a good player picked him up and used him he'd be pretty much unstoppable like M2k is in Brawl.

Unfortunately this community is terrible. Most of you skimmed the "scrub" and "ban" sections of Sirlin's ptw guide one time and drew your conclusions that way, and there is no way in hell we could get anyone to agree on a soft ban because people want money. That's the entire reason m2k plays MK, don't let anyone fool you. He doesn't even like brawl, as he has said before and only plays the game for cash. In the sf4 community, MK wouldn't be placing top 8 at evo either.

OH YES

OH GOSH YES

SCREENSHOTTING THIS

AND POSTING IT ALL OVER SRK LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

 

[Strong Badam]

Sagat is still #1 in the game and if a good player picked him up and used him he'd be pretty much unstoppable like M2k is in Brawl.

like at apex and genesis amirite

also wtf at sagat being softbanned... do US people even softban anything?!

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes, but what I am also saying is that while you Can put yourself in a favorable position, at most it can only be a 50:50, while on the other side he has a chance to put you in a reasonable worse scenario.

And 50:50 is at most what you need. In the first set there's ONLY Neutrals, so you can easily strike Yoshi's Island with Diddy and WIN the first set by only skill!
If you still lose, there's nothing to blame but your lack of skill.

If he wins in the second set, you have still the third set to do so again, and choose a stage/character combination that puts him to even or disadvantage.
If you lose here, there's nothing to blame but your lack of skill.

If he counterpicks your character choice in the second set (say, if you did play Diddy and won, if he picks Luigi in the second set), then that isn't Meta Knight's fault, but exactly what you, the Pro-Ban side, is wanting to happen!

 

[Espy Rose]

An even match up is all you need. At that point, you're just being lazy. Get better than your opponent in that match up, and beat him.

I agree. Let's all pick up MK so every match is at worst, even. Then all this *****ing can stop...
Oh wait-

===

@ Spadey: True, I suppose. It sucks to always be in a disadvantaged position.

Wait, that sounds familiar.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

like at apex and genesis amirite

also wtf at sagat being softbanned... do US people even softban anything?!

This pretty much answers itself since if anyone did Sagat would be placing!

 

[Rykoshet]

like at apex and genesis amirite

Ally lost the next ****ing week

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm going to bold my statement so it's more important.

also SF4 a is really well balanced game. It's character balance is on par with Guilty Gear and the like. Someone using Ryu/Akuma/etc. has just about the same chance as someone using Sagat. The game is far more effected by player skill rather than character choice.

 

[iRJi]

An even match up is all you need. At that point, you're just being lazy. Get better than your opponent in that match up, and beat him.

And about your other post: Well, I was going to talk about Diddy, but Spadefox beat me to it.
Well, is it fair? No, it's not. Does "fairness" matter? Not really. Fighting games are not balanced, things won't be fair.


Spadefox: I love you.

No, they never are, but what I am also stating is that this is for every character. there is a difference between just not being balanced, and something that is out of the loop of not being balanced. Its a bit confusing how I said it, but this applies to each character. Other then MK, you have the opportunity,the privilege, to put your opponent in a slight disadvantage. MK on the other hand, your only option is at best a even case. Even if even is all you need, due to the fact that you are limited on the options that you can not even force him into a slightly bad situation as a C/P, it is something that is out of the loop. ESP. for a game that is semi based around C/Ping people

 

[Omni]

Since when was it implied that Brawl had to be a game of rock, paper, scissors?

 

[Red Arremer]

Unfortunately this community is terrible. Most of you skimmed the "scrub" and "ban" sections of Sirlin's ptw guide one time and drew your conclusions that way, and there is no way in hell we could get anyone to agree on a soft ban because people want money. That's the entire reason m2k plays MK, don't let anyone fool you. He doesn't even like brawl, as he has said before and only plays the game for cash. If this were the sf4 community, MK wouldn't be placing top 8 at evo either.

I agree that this community is terrible.

But your statements about Mew2King are incorrect. Yes, he did say these statements, but this is a long time ago. Nowadays, he says that Meta Knight is fun to him and that he likes Brawl now. He said that playing Ally is REALLY fun to him, and that he LOVES playing him.
So I suppose your whole argument doesn't hold all too well. While he certainly does play for money, too, this isn't his only reason to play Brawl (anymore).

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Since when was it implied that Brawl had to be a game of rock, paper, scissors?

Does it have to be implied? It sort of already is xD

 

[iRJi]

Oh get out with that ****. Any snake that takes you to halberd is being lazy. Any ike that takes you to delfino is being lazy, any fox that takes you to FD is being lazy, marth battlefield etc, are you really about to state that the advantage given to someone who has already lost a match is due to laziness? It's called not making a bad situation worse. Counterpicking aims to gives a clear advantage to the loser of the match, only one character in the game takes this and throws it out the window. That's not laziness on the previous loser's part, being able to look at list of 15 some odd stages, ban the single one you may have trouble on, then have at the very worst a 50/50 matchup on your hands is far more lazy.

Yay for Ryko lol XD

 

[Espy Rose]

I hate when people talk about **** they don't know anything about.

Sagat wasn't in the top 8 at Evo because Sagat is "soft-banned" in sf4. He's not really "banned," but good players don't use him because he's so good that it eliminates the competition aspect of the game. Anyone who uses him is bad enough that they'd stand no chance at winning a tournament that size anyway. Sagat is still #1 in the game and if a good player picked him up and used him he'd be pretty much unstoppable like M2k is in Brawl.

Unfortunately this community is terrible. Most of you skimmed the "scrub" and "ban" sections of Sirlin's ptw guide one time and drew your conclusions that way, and there is no way in hell we could get anyone to agree on a soft ban because people want money. That's the entire reason m2k plays MK, don't let anyone fool you. He doesn't even like brawl, as he has said before and only plays the game for cash. If this were the sf4 community, MK wouldn't be placing top 8 at evo either.

Much, much, much love to you for this.

 

[Red Arremer]

This pretty much answers itself since if anyone did Sagat would be placing!

lol, ya. See Japan. :V
Top 15 player rankings with 8 Sagats.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Oh get out with that ****. Any snake that takes you to halberd is being lazy. Any ike that takes you to delfino is being lazy, any fox that takes you to FD is being lazy, marth battlefield etc, are you really about to state that the advantage given to someone who has already lost a match is due to laziness? It's called, not making a bad situation worse.

I'm saying that if you lose an even match up, it's your fault, don't get it twisted.

The opportunity is there, you just have to work harder against MK. He has even match ups, you can win, it's your fault if you don't.

 

[JUDGE]

Hi, I am DarkRenji.

Does it have to be implied? It sort of already is xD

hmmm..... if you want to see it like that........

 

[iRJi]

I'm saying that if you lose an even match up, it's your fault, don't get it twisted.

The opportunity is there, you just have to work harder against MK. He has even match ups, you can win, it's your fault if you don't.

Reposting incase you missed this.

there is a difference between just not being balanced, and something that is out of the loop of not being balanced. Its a bit confusing how I said it, but this applies to each character. Other then MK, you have the opportunity,the privilege, to put your opponent in a slight disadvantage. MK on the other hand, your only option is at best a even case. Even if even is all you need, due to the fact that you are limited on the options that you can not even force him into a slightly bad situation as a C/P, it is something that is out of the loop. ESP. for a game that is semi based around C/Ping people

 

[Omni]

Does it have to be implied? It sort of already is xD

No, it isn't.

People have a problem with the fact that Metaknight is not countered by "Character X" because that's what they've been breastfed since Melee.

Rewind time and you'll find Pikachu having zero counters. Look outside the box and you'll find other best characters in other games having no counters.

So now that Smash has a game with a new best character, everyone's panties get caught in a bunch. "How unfair for a character to exist where I can't have the advantage by choosing another character."

Pro-ban has a few legitimate arguments, but the mentality of most pro-ban players is that of a scrub.

 

[Rykoshet]

I'm saying that if you lose an even match up, it's your fault, don't get it twisted.

And all it takes to get the even matchup is to lose the first uneven matchup (unless you're one character on 1 of 3 stages, the 2 best of which will be striked off the bat). Hu****ingzzah

 

[Blacknight99923]

people marth and Rob have bad match ups other then MK
for example marth is just as screwed against D3, Rob is terrible against falco, so no matter what happens we have to pick sides to deal with those to characters

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

vote yes 4 ban :/

I'm guessing you already voted then.

Let me give a quick lesson to people who haven't voted yet:

Don't ask ppl who have already voted what to vote. Most likely, they will not give you the right answer. Don't even ask the smart people around here, I'd say to "Do this on your own" and read the FACTS (not the opinions) from both sides. Oh, and if you don't play this game on a competitive level, don't vote at all. (Even though you might anyway and screw stuff up)

 

[Divinokage]

No, it isn't.

People have a problem with the fact that Metaknight is not countered by "Character X" because that's what they've been breastfed since Melee.

Rewind time and you'll find Pikachu having zero counters. Look outside the box and you'll find other best characters in other games having no counters.

So now that Smash has a game with a new character, everyone's panties get caught in a bunch. "How unfair for a character to exist where I can't have the advantage by choosing another character."

Pro-ban has a few legitimate arguments, but the mentality of most pro-ban players is that of a scrub.

The only matchup in melee that's almost rock, paper, scissors is Ganon vs Falcon. Certain moves beats other moves. Like Backair beats nair, or Fair beats Bair for example.

 

[Red Arremer]

No, it isn't.

People have a problem with the fact that Metaknight is not countered by "Character X" because that's what they've been breastfed since Melee.

Rewind time and you'll find Pikachu having zero counters. Look outside the box and you'll find other best characters in other games having no counters.

So now that Smash has a game with a new best character, everyone's panties get caught in a bunch. "How unfair for a character to exist where I can't have the advantage by choosing another character."

Pro-ban has a few legitimate arguments, but the mentality of most pro-ban players is that of a scrub.

Omni. I... I love you. ;~;

And Melo, you too.

 

[Rykoshet]

Look outside the box and you'll find other best characters in other games having no counters.

By all means name an example that didn't get banned or soft banned by the community.

The only matchup in melee that's almost rock, paper, scissors is Ganon vs Falcon. Certain moves beats other moves. Like Backair beats nair, or Fair beats Bair for example.

So not what they meant...