Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[iRJi]

It does make him bannable when EVERY OTHER CHARACTER does have at least one bad matchup. Why should MK have the luxury of never having to CP anyone with a differ character, face any uphill battles, have no bad stages, etc when every other character has to. It makes no sense for anyone to not play MK. And he does have some 8-2s and 7-3s.

Yay Chibo =D

Edit: sorry for the Double post

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol@people who really think sagat is softbanned in sf4.

I was trolling. I didn't do a very good job though!

 

[Omni]

MarKO: I play SF4 competitively and know quite a few of the best players on the EC. Eric Kim, MD/VA's best Sagat, has said that no one can use Sagat at his highest potential in America. When Justin Wong and Marn went over to Japan, they didn't even place anywhere notable in the tournaments he attended.

Ryko: The two characters (Gouken and Seth) in SF4 weren't banned because they were best. Sagat, Ryu, and Balrog, Zangief and Viper were still placed above them on the tier list. Seth and Gouken were banned for other reasons. Do some research before you start throwing out things you no nothing about.

Yellowroy: Flight of the Conchords ,indeed.

 

[Rykoshet]

But the person who isn't Meta Knight doesn't NEED the advantage. Even is all you need.

Taking into account the fact that the MK player has a ban, can you point out more than maybe a three that get a second option that gives them the even that they need out of being able to counterpick? I'm taking into account snake as one by default. Maybe ICs since you cant ban both FD and Smashville, and diddy on the aforementioned stages. I'm giving you the three off the bat.

The two characters (Gouken and Seth) in SF4 weren't banned because they were best. Sagat, Ryu, and Balrog, Zangief and Viper were still placed above them on the tier list. Seth and Gouken were banned for other reasons. Do some research before you start throwing out things you no nothing about.

I stated the first time I brought up those bans in SF4 that already knew they werent banned because they were broken but rather for having unique abilities not allotted to other characters, like gouken's counter.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I disagree, the tournament results show that the Top Tiers are definitely not dominant in the scene. When's the last time Fox won a tournament? GG.

When ahve you seens omeone master Fox completely? GG

Edit: Does it not seem odd to you that a character would be banned even though he isnt better than the ones above him? Really, I would like a good reason as to why such characters like al gol are banned even though they have bad amtchups

 

[Strong Badam]

he has some. but unlike akuma in HDR (which is an example made by the Pro-Ban side in the first post if I'm not mistaken) where he has 9-1's against EVERYONE ELSE IN THE GAME, MetaKnight has even match-ups and stages, which will make the winner of the set the better player. clearly, that's what the game's about, so what's the problem? Sheik didn't have any disadvanatageous matchups or stages, Fox had stage-dependent 55-45's (where he could just ban FD and then that's gone) and otherwise good matchups, and Pika in 64 had no counters, either. Since when is it unheard of that the best character in the game doesn't have bad match-ups?

also yeah, Wong got ***** when he went over to Japan XD

 

[Red Arremer]

I understand, and to me it wouldn't warren a ban if the game wasn't so C/P based, but it is. That sole reason is enough for me to issue his ban.

Brawl is not BASED on counterpicking. Counterpicking is an option, a strategy. Not a necessity.

but unlike akuma in HDR

That's SF2 Turbo Akuma.

 

[thrillagorilla]

My statement that you commented on is my personal reason for why he should be. As for others, you might want to take it up with them.

Personal opinion doesn't make for ban criteria. If it did, everything on the table would be up for a ban. There is no underlining truth to competition behind it. That's why I am asking for the criteria.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

That he breaks the C/P system.
That he appears to have, as a character, virtually no weaknesses.
That he has no bad matchups or stages.
That he, as a character, is in possession of tools to completely and utterly break the game in half. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

There's almost certainly more that I'm forgetting.

Also, I thought of an interesting rebuttal to the whole "we can't handicap MK because he's either broken or he isn't" argument. We already do handicap MK.

 

[Clai]

He...you should've seen the reasons already...

Which reasons haven't we refuted already? State a reason and I bet the anti-ban side has already answered to it multiple times.

It does make him bannable when EVERY OTHER CHARACTER does have at least one bad matchup. Why should MK have the luxury of never having to CP anyone with a differ character, face any uphill battles, have no bad stages, etc when every other character has to.

Hey, Chibo, let me tell you something.

METAKNIGHT'S THE BEST CHARACTER IN BRAWL!

That's the reason why he has the luxury of never having to CP anyone with a different character or face any inherent uphill battles based on stages when every other character does.

It makes no sense for anyone to not play MK.

It also makes no sense for the great majority of people to give up their mains to play MK.

And he does have some 8-2s and 7-3s.

Several characters have more 8-2's and 7-3's than Metaknight. In fact, many characters invalidate more of the cast than Metaknight does. Metaknight is not special in that regard.

 

[Strong Badam]

That's SF2 Turbo Akuma.

super street fighter 2 turbo hd remix.

 

[iRJi]

Personal opinion doesn't make for ban criteria. If it did, everything on the table would be up for a ban. There is no underlining truth to competition behind it. That's why I am asking for the criteria.

My personal reasoning is part of ban criteria, since my personal reason happens to be the truth, its less opinion oriented and it stated on the facts, actually.

 

[Red Arremer]

We already do handicap MK.

If you're referring to the IDC, that is of a completely different matter. This technique is broken, and with it, Meta Knight would be broken.
That's why it was banned. Because it's a broken technique. Just like Stalling with Sonic's Homing Attack below a stage. That technique being banned doesn't handicap Sonic, though, or make him broken. Or do you want to argue that Sonic is a broken character that needs to be banned because there's a banned technique he's able to use?

If you're referring to Ledgestalling: Not only Meta Knight is capable of this.

 

[Omni]

That he breaks the C/P system.
That he appears to have, as a character, virtually no weaknesses.
That he has no bad matchups or stages.
That he, as a character, is in possession of tools to completely and utterly break the game in half. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

What you're suggesting isn't fact.
1.) The counterpick system isn't something that HAS to be met.
2.) No projectiles (must approach) and light weight are just two of few.
3.) He does not have a character that downright beats him, but there are many situations and scenarios where Metaknight can have a bad match-up based on character and stages. From the neutral standpoint, Snake and IC's have a nearly even match-up with him.
4.) Define break.

 

[thrillagorilla]

That he breaks the C/P system.
That he appears to have, as a character, virtually no weaknesses.
That he has no bad matchups or stages.
That he, as a character, is in possession of tools to completely and utterly break the game in half. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

There's almost certainly more that I'm forgetting.

Also, I thought of an interesting rebuttal to the whole "we can't handicap MK because he's either broken or he isn't" argument. We already do handicap MK.

So...

He doesn't fit the mold of a system set in place that fosters strategy, but is not necessary for competition.

He has the tools and options to compete with any character in the game on most stages.

Again, stalling is banned.

All you have said is that he is a good character. you have not outlined where the threshold is where competition is impossible or how Metaknight crosses it. As long as competition can occur, the character should not be banned. The only other option at this point is to try and prove over-centralization, which thus far has not been done.

 

[Steeler]

Well, as much as I like Steeler on a personal level, his tournament results have never been that good (he's not bad or anything though...).

no no, i am bad at this game

 

[thrillagorilla]

My personal reasoning is part of ban criteria, since my personal reason happens to be the truth, its less opinion oriented and it stated on the facts, actually.

By underlying truth, I meant truth of competition, not as in facts. Facts are not the arguments themselves, rather they support them. Again if competition can occur then nothing is wrong, which is what Spadefox has been stating for I don't know how many pages.

 

[da K.I.D.]

When ahve you seens omeone master Fox completely? GG

Edit: Does it not seem odd to you that a character would be banned even though he isnt better than the ones above him? Really, I would like a good reason as to why such characters like al gol are banned even though they have bad amtchups

im pretty sure algol has no bad matchups, and that theres only 4 characters that even have a chance against him. them being kilik, hilde, ivy and one other.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What you're suggesting isn't fact.
1.) The counterpick system isn't something that HAS to be met.
2.) No projectiles (must approach) and light weight are just two of few.
3.) He does not have a character that downright beats him, but there are many situations and scenarios where Metaknight can have a bad match-up based on character and stages. From the neutral standpoint, Snake and IC's have a nearly even match-up with him.
4.) Define break.

1. It's sort of a foundation of tournament brawl?
2. no projectiles is fixed by the most insane speed in the game and the fastest and safest approaches.
3. MK gets a stage ban, remember?
4. IDC.

If you're referring to the IDC, that is of a completely different matter. This technique is broken, and with it, Meta Knight would be broken.
That's why it was banned. Because it's a broken technique. Just like Stalling with Sonic's Homing Attack below a stage. That technique being banned doesn't handicap Sonic, though, or make him broken. Or do you want to argue that Sonic is a broken character that needs to be banned because there's a banned technique he's able to use?

If you're referring to Ledgestalling: Not only Meta Knight is capable of this.

Ledgestalling and IDC. And EDC which cannot effectively be banned. Why not just take it a step further. He breaks CP system? Remove him from half of it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

im pretty sure algol has no bad matchups, and that theres only 4 characters that even have a chance against him. them being kilik, hilde, ivy and one other.

I heard that those 4 had an advantage on him. Hence my confusion

 

[MarKO X]

He doesn't fit the mold of a system set in place that fosters strategy, but is not necessary for competition.

So, the rule of CP doesn't get broken because it's not necessary?

 

[phi1ny3]

Okay, so the last "argument cycle" of 10 pages or so was on CP system breaking, and how MK does break it or if it's criteria to warrant a ban.
I predict the newest cycle of arguments is going to come from "over-centralization", something I think a lot might agree on.
Question is: Is that warranting a ban, and is it really as over-centralized as reported?
*goes back to lurking/fact checking*

 

[Omni]

1. It's sort of a foundation of tournament brawl?
2. no projectiles is fixed by the most insane speed in the game and the fastest and safest approaches.
3. MK gets a stage ban, remember?
4. IDC.

1.) Lol, do you want me to respond to this? This was a very weak response. Who's foundation? As I said before, it isn't mandatory nor is it obligated to be in the game.

2.) No projectiles is not "fixed". You suggested MK has no weaknesses; I pointed out that he does have weaknesses. What you're attempting to do now is say that he can compsenate for his weaknesses with his strengths which is an entirely new argument. That's like saying, "MK's light weight weakness doesn't exist because he's so fast!" Oh, and FYI, there aren't many safe approaches against a campy grenade-***** Snake.

3.) MK getting a stage ban does not remove the fact that he still has difficult match-ups. What are you even talking about? You're just grasping for straws.

4.) IDC is banned. DDD's standing chaingrab is banned. Big whoop, wannafightaboutit?

 

[Red Arremer]

Ledgestalling and IDC. And EDC which cannot effectively be banned. Why not just take it a step further. He breaks CP system? Remove him from half of it.

I repeat, Ledgestalling is not only related to Meta Knight. Other characters are able to do this, for instance Mr. Game & Watch.

IDC is a broken technique that has been banned. Just like Sonic's Home Attack-stalling. This doesn't make Meta Knight more broken, since the IDC doesn't matter anyway, considering it's banned.
That was banning this technique, not putting a handicap on Meta Knight as character. The technique is clearly broken > ban it. No matter who is doing it. If Wario would have some instant waft charging, that probably would be banned too (depending on how much it would affect the game, which probably would be quite a lot).

I haven't put much research into EDC, to be honest, since it's a rather recent discovery.

Putting a handicap of whatever kind (actual damage handicap, having him not ban stages, having him not being able to switch character or whatever else), however, does admit that the character is broken.
Because you don't erase a certain technique, but cripple the character himself and with this, the player.

 

[Clai]

1. It's sort of a foundation of tournament brawl?

1) It's only a foundation because we as a community made it that way. You can't rely on it as a crutch, though.

2. no projectiles is fixed by the most insane speed in the game and the fastest and safest approaches.

2)Fox is faster on the ground, Metaknight's not even close to fastest in the air, so yes, he still have to deal with projectiles, especially since his sword can't cancel anything out.

3. MK gets a stage ban, remember?

3)Even with that ban, many characters have a reasonable chance of beating MK.

4. IDC.

4) the IDC was banned due to the existence of the rule that explicitly forbade excessive stalling, such as Jigglypuff's Rising Pound and Sonic's Homing attack. Besides, the Falcon Punch is much more likely to break the game in half.

Ledgestalling and IDC. And EDC which cannot effectively be banned. Why not just take it a step further. He breaks CP system? Remove him from half of it.

Game and Watch and Marth can ledgestall. I bet you you haven't even seen the EDC and you're just throwing it around like a rag doll. As for the CP system, he can't be put into a disadvantageous situation. Cry more.

 

[Omni]

So, the rule of CP doesn't get broken because it's not necessary?

Mark.

There is no "rule of CP". Counterpicking does not have to exist in a game in order for it (the game) to exist. People are implying that Metaknight breaks the counterpicking system, but anti-ban is saying that the counterpicking system is not a mandatory requirement for fighting games.

It's preferable; 90% of our population comes from Melee alone, but it isn't a requirement nor is it necessary. It's just a preference.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

4.) IDC is banned. DDD's standing chaingrab is banned. Big whoop, wannafightaboutit?

IDC still gets used because it's very hard to really tell. That rule is nearly impossible to enforce. Someone said earlier in this thread M2k was using it at some big tournament (forget which one).

 

[Abbra Cadav3r]

their are actually only a few top us sagat players, in japan sagat and ryu are really over represented.

the u.s. has haunts and hayclon. and yeah theirs 8 sagat players in japans top 15, you dont hear them asking for a ban.

 

[thrillagorilla]

1. It's sort of a foundation of tournament brawl?
2. no projectiles is fixed by the most insane speed in the game and the fastest and safest approaches.
3. MK gets a stage ban, remember?
4. IDC.



Ledgestalling and IDC. And EDC which cannot effectively be banned. Why not just take it a step further. He breaks CP system? Remove him from half of it.

1. You say so, but it is not the foundation for competition, which is what the anti-ban side has been saying and you are not proving it by making the same statements over and over again.

2.Safest =/= safe. Ask any Metaknight that gets out-ranged or baited. Also, he is by far NOT the fastest in the game in terms of approaches, or in movement. If you are going to make such a claim, explain it.

3. It doesn't eliminate the fact that characters can compete with him.

4. Banned

As for enforcing the ban, pause the game if they do it and call over a tournament organizer to watch the rest of the match. Its not that hard.

Finally, the cp system is not required for competition. You need to explain how Metaknight removes all possibilities for competition or prove he is over-centralizing the meta-game, both of which have yet to be done.

 

[fkacyan]

IDC still gets used because it's very hard to really tell. That rule is nearly impossible to enforce. Someone said earlier in this thread M2k was using it at some big tournament (forget which one).

Proof, like with a video or something, is all I would take as evidence. Hearsay is completely useless.

 

[Remzi]

I heard that those 4 had an advantage on him. Hence my confusion

Kilik and Hilde in all probability do counter him.

He is banned for the same reason as Gouken and Seth, he has options and tools that are too different. Except Algol is better than those two.

MK is far and away the best character in this game, and has tools that are alien to the rest of the game.

Why the **** is he still in?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Mark.

There is no "rule of CP". Counterpicking does not have to exist in a game in order for it (the game) to exist. People are implying that Metaknight breaks the counterpicking system, but anti-ban is saying that the counterpicking system is not a mandatory requirement for fighting games.

It's preferable; 90% of our population comes from Melee alone, but it isn't a requirement nor is it necessary. It's just a preference.

That's sounds like they'll get rid of the counterpicking concept since MK breaks it.

 

[MarKO X]

Mark.

There is no "rule of CP". Counterpicking does not have to exist in a game in order for it (the game) to exist. People are implying that Metaknight breaks the counterpicking system, but anti-ban is saying that the counterpicking system is not a mandatory requirement for fighting games.

It's preferable; 90% of our population comes from Melee alone, but it isn't a requirement nor is it necessary. It's just a preference.

The counterpicking system may not be mandatory, but in every Brawl tournament I've been to, considered going to, looked at on a live stream, etc., it's been there. I understand that CP isn't necessary, but why does it suddenly not get taken into account if it exists and it is used?

 

[thrillagorilla]

IDC still gets used because it's very hard to really tell. That rule is nearly impossible to enforce. Someone said earlier in this thread M2k was using it at some big tournament (forget which one).

Its not banned in Oregon unless its used to stall, in which case the course of action I described takes place and the Metaknight user either stops or is disqualified.

 

[Remzi]

Oh yea, MARTH CAN'T SAFELY LEDGESTALL NOOBS.

just sayin

 

[Clai]

That's sounds like they'll get rid of the counterpicking concept since MK breaks it.

No. People just assume by counterpicking, they have to be guaranteed the advantage or else it's broken. Counterpicking does not HAVE to give the advantage, it just creates a favorable situation where the player is able to choose the character and/or stage he/she feels will give him/her the best chance of winning.

Metaknight does not break this. It only breaks the illusion that counterpicking is going to hold your hand and kiss your boo-boos when you trip and fall over.

EDIT: BengalsRZ, Marth has been able to safely ledgestall.

You're doing it wrong.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Kilik and Hilde in all probability do counter him.

He is banned for the same reason as Gouken and Seth, he has options and tools that are too different. Except Algol is better than those two.

**** being different. Such an argument is terrible.
oh his options and tools aredifferent from the rest of the cast, BAN!
That's terrible logic.

The fact that he has 4 characters that give him the business is ore than enough to deny a ban.
Surely the matchups must be better for Al gol than premised, otherwise, its just silly to ban a character on the idea of being different.

 

[Steel]

@clai

No he can't.

 

[Boxob.]

Metaknight does not break this. It only breaks the illusion that counterpicking is going to hold your hand and kiss your boo-boos when you trip and fall over.

Rofl. Very well put.

 

[Omni]

The counterpicking system may not be mandatory, but in every Brawl tournament I've been to, considered going to, looked at on a live stream, etc., it's been there. I understand that CP isn't necessary, but why does it suddenly not get taken into account if it exists and it is used?

Don't get me wrong. The counterpick system is a great system to use, but it is not absolute and should not be used as a crutch.

As I said before, the top players in Melee ignore the counterpicking system. DaShizWiz's Falco will beat Marths, Mew2King's Marth will beat Sheiks, KDJ's Shek will beat Foxes so on and so forth.

It is a good system to use from beginning to intermediate if you're not good enough to advance using one character (or if your one character is seriously handicapped by another), but it isn't the quid quo pro.

Do you understand what I'm saying?