Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Clai]

@clai

No he can't.

So this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=216620

was debunked?

 

[Boxob.]

**** being different. Such an argument is terrible.
oh his options and tools aredifferent from the rest of the cast, BAN!
That's terrible logic.

The fact that he has 4 characters that give him the business is ore than enough to deny a ban.
Surely the matchups must be better for Al gol than premised, otherwise, its just silly to ban a character on the idea of being different.

This thread is about MetaKnight. Please move all spam to the sonic boards PM's.

 

[Abbra Cadav3r]

so instead of complaining who wants to start finding mk's weaknesses and ways each character can exploit them. I know i have a pretty good success rate with falco against MK.

MK doesnt have a way to aproach falco without taking heavy damage, falco gets to short hop laser and use lasers to keep MK from aproaching through the air. Reflector stops lazy b specials from getting in and resets range. phantasm allows range to be reset whenever he gets in close and can be mixed up with reflector when he starts guessing it. the only thing is falco has a tough time killing MK because of all his recovery options, but still MK has no aproach game that scares falco.

 

[MarKO X]

lol
just a lil sumthin sumthin about sagat and seth: http://www.joystiq.com/2009/07/13/capcom-admits-to-overpowered-seth-and-sagat-in-street-fighter-iv/

doubt if that's fully relevant to either side, but yeah.

 

[TriforceMaster5282]

I've always been pro ban, but was considering switching, until I watched the video posted on extreme recovery options. Not cool. sorry, but I voted on the Pro Ban side

 

[Red Arremer]

It only breaks the illusion that counterpicking is going to hold your hand and kiss your boo-boos when you trip and fall over.

XD!

Surely the matchups must be better for Al gol than premised, otherwise, its just silly to ban a character on the idea of being different.

Wasn't he like version and/or console-exclusive? Forgive my ignorance should I be utterly wrong, since I don't even play SCIV.

But that has been the case in past Soul Calibur games (for instance in SCII Necrid was banned for being console-exclusive).

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I see. You're never garunteed a win, unless you've mastered the IC chaingrab, going against Ganon on FD...even with that, you still have to know what you're doing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

But that has been the case in past Soul Calibur games (for instance in SCII Necrid was banned for being console-exclusive).

Seth and Gouken

 

[Abbra Cadav3r]

and gouken and seth are not banned, get your facts straight. Sabin mains seth and gouken is mid tier at best. Seth is beastly with 2 combo dizzies and **** like that but he has horrible health and you have to play perfect to win because he can be 2 combo dizzied by most of the cast with meter.

 

[Red Arremer]

Seth and Gouken

Seth and Gouken are console-exclusive? Gah, I really need to put more research into these new games. And get them too. >_<

Also, just because one community bans a console/version-exclusive character (such as SC2 banning Necrid or GG banning Kliff and Justice), it doesn't mean others naturally WILL follow that example.
I just wanted to ask if that's the case for Algol ^^"

 

[Steel]

So this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=216620

was debunked?

You can just grab the ledge once he falls off >_>

It's not like the ledge is being held onto the entire time.

 

[Remzi]

**** being different. Such an argument is terrible.
oh his options and tools aredifferent from the rest of the cast, BAN!
That's terrible logic.

The fact that he has 4 characters that give him the business is ore than enough to deny a ban.
Surely the matchups must be better for Al gol than premised, otherwise, its just silly to ban a character on the idea of being different.

it's not exactly being different. its the bubbles mainly imo. they change the way the game is played. they obstruct the view of the screen, the can potentially make any move algol has safe.

 

[MarKO X]

stuff in pale green

Mmmmhmmm. understood. Especially since my arguments are all aimed (or mostly aimed) at the highest level of play.

other stuff

lol. o really?

 

[∫unk]

i swear to god shadowlink, yuna, and spadefox are the same person and they never sign off

 

[Omni]

You can just grab the ledge once he falls off >_>

It's not like the ledge is being held onto the entire time.

That's only good for regrabbing. Marth has really good options to protect the ledge while not getting hit.

NEO grabs the ledge, then does a fast fall with an immediate f-air. It hits people who are standing anywhere close to the ledge. From there he goes into a quick up+b to regrab the ledge.

If Marth hits you or your shield with the f-air, you'll be stunned enough for him to regrab the ledge. If you don't get hit by the f-air, you're probably too far to grab the ledge before he up+b's. Marth has a very solid planking game considering his up+b is very similar to MK's in that situation.

 

[MarKO X]

stuff

cosign. mostly about sf4. i'm so lost with all these smash rumors about sf4 and wutnot.

 

[Remzi]

EDIT: BengalsRZ, Marth has been able to safely ledgestall.

You're doing it wrong.

lmao. please dont state something as fact when you don't know wtf you are talking about.

If you are talking about ledge drop fair > DS. you can grab the ledge or jump behind and attack marth.

if you are talking about the DS quick ledge regrab, you can easily just grab the ledge that Marth is hogging.

That's only good for regrabbing. Marth has really good options to protect the ledge while not getting hit.

NEO grabs the ledge, then does a fast fall with an immediate f-air. It hits people who are standing anywhere close to the ledge. From there he goes into a quick up+b to regrab the ledge.

If Marth hits you or your shield with the f-air, you'll be stunned enough for him to regrab the ledge. If you don't get hit by the f-air, you're probably too far to grab the ledge before he up+b's. Marth has a very solid planking game considering his up+b is very similar to MK's in that situation.

Dude, everyone does this. Think outside the box, it's highly punishable. You can spot dodge the fair, jump over the fair, PS the fair, or basically anything. Marth is SCARED to be off stage with pressure because his recovery is bad. It's honestly not hard to stop at all. Hell, when I play Neo i just jump behind him and he is forced back onto the stage. Of course, he gets nice positioning from this, but it's by no means comparable to MK's ledge stalling.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I hate repeating myself but I still don't think a lot of people get it. It's not really a matter if Metaknight is broken because, as already said, he's not and he follows competitive standards. He kind of side steps the counterpick system but, as said many times before, this is gravy and there are a decent number of characters in other fighting games that do the same. The issue is whether or not keeping Metaknight around will hurt the future of this game. We basically have a game that's much more shallow compared to other fighting games. It's only been a little over a year and most characters' metagames have slowed to a crawl and, due to Metaknight's mass popularity, is a game that's mainly focused on beating one character. More or less, you only have a few characters that are really developing anymore (Snake, Diddy Kong and the Ice Climbers with the last two to a lesser degree) and that's mainly because of Metaknight's presence and even then Snake is the only one that really has all too much to show because of it. For a game like Brawl, I would say that diversity is very important because, for a game that doesn't offer many options/strategies within individual characters (as opposed to Melee), it is important to be given more options by having more characters possibly viable and I believe that Metaknight is the biggest road block to this.

As said before, in a game that's ruled by many gay elements like inescapable chain grabs and strong camping, Metaknight's the only thing that can't be counterpicked around. People argue say that Fox in Melee couldn't be truely counterpicked either but Fox didn't have five methods of recovery, he had individual strategies that worked against him like Dr. Mario's uthrow and Jigglypuff's "spacey killer" to at least make the match up manageable, and it was possible for a Fox to be 0-death'd (or at least take a lot of blows) if he messed up once, just like everyone else in Melee. Brawl is not Melee, this is abundantly clear and we need to stop using the same standards that we used to rule things in Melee.

I believe with Metaknight gone, most of the cast will have a weight lifted off their shoulders. I believe that diversity would increase and a decent amount of characters (4-6) would become reasonably viable and some characters would become even more so like Mr. Game and Watch and King Dedede depending on which characters became popular in particular reasons after MK was banned. I believe that with Metaknight gone, there would actually be a "circle" of 5-6 top/high tier characters that would rule competition, just like in Melee, and the game (for most characters) would become "how do I beat blank, blank, and blank" instead of "how do I beat Metaknight (and Snake to a lesser extent)." I believe this is why characters like Lucario and Pit have essentially fallen by the wayside despite their tier list position and why characters like King Dedede and Mr. Game and Watch have been falling as of late. In turn, I believe this would rejuvenate Brawl's metagame and help extend its lifespan.

This issue, if anything, came about because the community dealt with this situation horrifically wrong. When Metaknight surpassed Snake a little more than a year ago, it basically became a band wagon movement thanks to Metaknight's obvious good qualities and low learning curve. People didn't want to develop their characters, they wanted an easy way out. If anything, the community caused this problem and we wouldn't even be here talking about this now if the Brawl community had truely kept the competitive mentality of just bucking up and trying to push your character forward. In a sense, because we caused this, I believe the responsible thing to do is correct it and give people a reason again to actually develop their characters outside of one or two matchups. Is it forcing diversity down the community's throat? Yes but for a competitively "weak" game like Brawl, I believe that it is a nessecity for it to survive.

 

[Red Arremer]

cosign. mostly about sf4. i'm so lost with all these smash rumors about sf4 and wutnot.

lol.

Well I know for sure from these Top 8 Sagats, directly from Omni, to be exact.

I really should sign up at SRK and 8WR to check out these "bans" and "soft bans" and whatnot.

 

[bobson]

Hi, I am DarkRenji.

Hi, DarkRenji!

 

[Abbra Cadav3r]

algol was a beast, he had no weak range and bubbles were broken. algol is not comparable to MK because algol had no weaknesses. and akuma from sf2 was a hidden character who had a broken zoning game. ohh and really dominant characters in fighters would be eddie from GG ac. and i meant yun and yang in the first incarnation of 3s. now 3s is all about ken and chun because the game has evolved into lightning fast footsies.

 

[Clai]

lmao. please dont state something as fact when you don't know wtf you are talking about.

And yet I know that many top Marths have been able to incorporate some type of ledgestalling into their games.

Granted they can't stall as well as Metaknight, but Marth can stall enough for his needs.

+Everything InfernoOmni says agrees with what I'm saying.

 

[Steel]

That's only good for regrabbing. Marth has really good options to protect the ledge while not getting hit.

NEO grabs the ledge, then does a fast fall with an immediate f-air. It hits people who are standing anywhere close to the ledge. From there he goes into a quick up+b to regrab the ledge.

If Marth hits you or your shield with the f-air, you'll be stunned enough for him to regrab the ledge. If you don't get hit by the f-air, you're probably too far to grab the ledge before he up+b's. Marth has a very solid planking game considering his up+b is very similar to MK's in that situation.

I know this.

When I played M2K he had a way around it, he waited for me to fall fair and jumped around and attempted to up b me. Wasn't always successful, but it definitely got me off the ledge.

 

[Omni]

Clai: Yep.

For anyone who cares, this is Tokyo alone:
01 Mago (Sa) 289.393
02 Ojisan Boy (Sa) 269.415
03 Daigo (Ry) 255.524
04 RF (Sa) 228.186
05 Nemo (Ch) 197.035
06 Shiro (Ab) 149.294
07 RADIOWAVE (Sa) 145.088
08 Uryo (Vi) 139.936
09 Bonchan (Sa) 136.630
10 Nuki (Ch) 134.474

Daigo is now #3rd ranked as of last weekend.

 

[Abbra Cadav3r]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=182703&highlight=gouken+seth+banned

 

[Palpi]

lmao. please dont state something as fact when you don't know wtf you are talking about.

If you are talking about ledge drop fair > DS. you can grab the ledge or jump behind and attack marth.

if you are talking about the DS quick ledge regrab, you can easily just grab the ledge that Marth is hogging.



Dude, everyone does this. Think outside the box, it's highly punishable. You can spot dodge the fair, jump over the fair, PS the fair, or basically anything. Marth is SCARED to be off stage with pressure because his recovery is bad. It's honestly not hard to stop at all. Hell, when I play Neo i just jump behind him and he is forced back onto the stage. Of course, he gets nice positioning from this, but it's by no means comparable to MK's ledge stalling.

I was gonna say something, but instead ill just say. LETS BAN TIME LIMITS, who cares if tournaments have to end at some point!

 

[Espy Rose]

Proof, like with a video or something, is all I would take as evidence. Hearsay is completely useless.

I recall seeing a video on Youtube of M2K using such a thing without being called out on it.
It's from the WHOBO tournament back in April.

 

[Master Raven]

Tbh I'm pretty sure you can bait a Marth into FF Fair and then immediately grabbing the ledge right after, at least in my experience, or if the Marth is sensing that, can he just simply do a regular FF and UpB right after, without the lag from the Fair? It's something I haven't seen before so this is just theory talk but it's something I just thought of.

 

[bobson]

I recall seeing a video on Youtube of M2K using such a thing without being called out on it.
It's from the WHOBO tournament back in April.

That was a friendly.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Seth and Gouken are console-exclusive? Gah, I really need to put more research into these new games. And get them too. >_<

Also, just because one community bans a console/version-exclusive character (such as SC2 banning Necrid or GG banning Kliff and Justice), it doesn't mean others naturally WILL follow that example.
I just wanted to ask if that's the case for Algol ^^"

I know the communites tend to bant hings not readily available. Like the EX and gold characters in GGXAC+

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I don't think 8-7-09 is a good deadline for everyone's vote.

 

[Red Arremer]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=182703&highlight=gouken+seth+banned

Thank you very much.

I know the communites tend to bant hings not readily available. Like the EX and gold characters in GGXAC+

Hence I was asking if Algol is console exclusive, exclusive to a version etc.

I know about these characters from GG, and that's the same with Necrid in SC2.

 

[MarKO X]

That was a friendly.

he still shoulda got DQ'd from the match.

 

[Boxob.]

I know this.

When I played M2K he had a way around it, he waited for me to fall fair and jumped around and attempted to up b me. Wasn't always successful, but it definitely got me off the ledge.

Couldn't you just run, powershield, grab the edge before marth does?

 

['V']

At least this vote is more popular than it's ever been before. Things are at least a little bit interesting.

 

[Chuee]

he still shoulda got DQ'd from the match.

No, that would hurt his record lol.

 

[Espy Rose]

That was a friendly.

Can you link me to anything saying such a thing? AFAIK, the WHOBO video thread pointed out whether or not the matches where friendlies, money matches, or tournament matches.

btw, the video in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK8UA3BJIVI

Ri~ght at 1:07.

 

[Remzi]

Couldn't you just run, powershield, grab the edge before marth does?

Dude, the number of things you can do to get around it are endless.

That is one of many ways.

Can you link me to anything saying otherwise? AFAIK, the WHOBO video thread pointed out whether or not the matches where friendlies, money matches, or tournament matches.

btw, the video in question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bK8UA3BJIVI

Ri~ght at 1:07.

Very interesting, clearly not a normal Dimensional Cape.

If the champ himself is cheating, who the hell do we trust >_>

 

[ShadowLink84]

algol was a beast, he had no weak range and bubbles were broken. algol is not comparable to MK because algol had no weaknesses. and akuma from sf2 was a hidden character who had a broken zoning game. ohh and really dominant characters in fighters would be eddie from GG ac. and i meant yun and yang in the first incarnation of 3s. now 3s is all about ken and chun because the game has evolved into lightning fast footsies.

Lgol had a weak close range game and while surely it was hard to get in due to bubbles, it wasn't an impossible task, and 4 characters were capale of breaking through, that alone makes a ban sound really odd.

 

[Masmasher@]

Algol has no bad matchups
Ask and i will tell you why....