Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Mekos]

Ally thinks his mk is terrible...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'll repeat: you want to say that somehow we must be doing things wrong because for the first time ever the US lost in Smash to Japan. This is the first time. Ever. That Japan has gotten first over the US players. Heck, Apex 2010's breakout star placed 13th this year!

You know what else is a first? The good Japanese players coming. You know how Brood placed 2nd at APEX 2010 (iirc it was APEX...)? When the Japanese were asked "where does Brood stand in comparison to Nietono", Nietono placed them about equal, while one of the others (Rain?) put one hand on the floor and the other as high as he could. I mean, jesus ****, look at the results! Out of the 8 Japanese players who came to apex, 6 made it out of the hardest pools in the history of smash, All 6 of those made top 16, 3 of those made top 8, and Grand Finals was like a Japanese regional, except that two of Japan's other contenders for "best in Japan" (LSL and Kyuubi) were not present. At the most stacked tournament, Japan brought 8 people, and placed ridiculously well. That **** matters!

 

[Cygnet]

What about my post below? ._. It looks like everyone ignored it, but I think it makes sense as to what the "force" is....?

Spoiler

Actually, I am guilty of having claimed that MK's existence forces non-MK mains to improve in order to surpass or match MK mains in tourney. (I think anti-ban says what I just said, and pro-ban says that MK's ban makes other characters better.)

Part of the reason why is character loyalists. BSP is partially right in that you could just play MK and shoot up to that level, but not everyone is willing to do that. Look at Nietono: even when faced with a possible lost set to Ally's MK on Frigate, he stayed true to his character even though MK could've evened out the odds for him. (Although, yes, I know he did play MK sometime during Apex.)

Look at people like Mekos or Mikehaze. (I know that Mikehaze has picked up MK, but he did so not because of the Marth-MK MU, but because of the combination of Marth-MK and RC/Brinstar.) They won't ever regularly play MK (I think), and they won't quit the game. People like them, and their drive, are the forces that BSP is referring to.

A lot of top players of certain characters are top players of that character because they just LOVE that character. Because of that, they won't take up MK, but they won't quit; there is no alternative but to advance your character or your skill.

Is it that my posts are too long....? (Sorry for being such an attention freak all the time, but I'm just concerned that people aren't reading my posts.)

EDIT: Also irrelevant, but I see some people talking about a LSL in Japan sometimes; it's SLS. (Sorry for being so nitpicky.)

 

[xFats]

stay banned.

 

[Kinzer]

Ally thinks his mk is terrible...

My Sonic is the best this world has ever seen.

What's your point?

Not trying to instigate

Spoiler

too much

.

 

[Ussi]

For those that want MK banned from doubles; is it that you just want double MK (ie Red Team = MK+MK) banned, or would you also want MK+other character banned?

I want Mk gone from doubles completely.

 

[Cassio]

The point I'm trying to make is that MK is definitely beatable and it's true a lot of people are just giving up on their characters because of MK and I agree they shouldn't. But the fact that he's beatable doesn't have much to do with my decision in the ban and also some people will be going back to their original characters and will actually have a chance to build the metagame up of those characters now that MK is gone. Maybe sometime in the future the character's metagames will have be developed enough to be able to compete with MKs better, but I don't see that happening any time soon unless MK remains banned.

I respect this opinion and understand why we'd want this to happen. The only problem is sort of what mekos said, the issue seems to be more with our mentality than MK and while banning MK might change that its also not a guarantee. From what I understand America has a history of relying on overpowered tactics as opposed to improving personal skill. Its not just brawl, look at hungrybox. And its not just smash either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw2g1PRYPrA

Im not sure that banning MK will actually cause people to focus on their personal skill, however it doesnt sound like the *** kicking we got from Japan mightve done the trick. At the very least it shows us that our metagame of playing gay linear tactics isnt the games peak.

I'll repeat: you want to say that somehow we must be doing things wrong because for the first time ever the US lost in Smash to Japan. This is the first time. Ever. That Japan has gotten first over the US players. Heck, Apex 2010's breakout star placed 13th this year! There is a huge variation in tournament play/results, and you want to take a single data point and extract a wealth of (exaggerated) knowledge that even if it were true, wouldn't mean we have to just follow what the Japanese do. Heck, even my statement of the US repeatedly beating Japan is an exaggeration considering the two communities have only interacted on average once a year since about the end of 2004. Even taking all of those tournaments (less than 10, of which US was on top in all but 1) into account that is still too few data points to really make any solid conclusions, much less to jump ship and proclaim as if it were irrefutable that we, the US, were doing something terribly wrong, when up to this point in time we had always come out on top! Finally, and its always worth repeating, the Japanese took first with MK.

Ok, I think I was misunderstanding your perspective and didnt convey my point well. I know you do a lot of stuff behind the scenes, so probably arent around to analyze scenes outside the US. However for those who were keeping an eye on other scenes this was not a surprise. Certain people accurately predicted Japanese skill and player success. The people this was a big surprise too were generally the ones that hadnt payed attention to other scenes. Apex isnt extracting a lot of information from a single tournament, it was the fulfillment of the point of view on outside scenes which has been developed from years of analysis. All the ideas, theory, concepts and analysis was already there, apex was just the confirmation.

Youre not incorrect that in terms of results, Apex is just one tournament. The thing I feel like youre neglecting (and this is the bigger point) is that it provides us with a new way to look at all our previous data and puts into question the way it was interpreted before. Not to say that our old perspective needs to just be tossed aside, but its completely reasonable that certain points be brought into question and that discussion on the merits from the different point of view provided to us take place.

Also, I dont think its accurate to use melee tournaments for brawl, lol.

 

[Black Mantis]

stay banned mk.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Let the ban continue. In a few more months there will likely be enough support and empirical evidence to more clearly see what an MK-less environment looks like.

Personal opinion, he is one of the only characters I find fun to play in Brawl, but do not really care if he is banned or not.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Cadet, stop calling him LSL - his name is SLS. You've mentioned his name incorrectly every post you made so far -.-

 

[infiniteV115]

Also, Cadet, stop calling him Kyuubi. DMBrandon clarified on stream that it is in fact 9B, and pronounced the way it is spelled. He knows this because he (as he claims) was hanging out with the Japanese and used the name Kyuubi, and they corrected him for it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Cadet, stop calling him LSL - his name is SLS. You've mentioned his name incorrectly every post you made so far -.-

Also, Cadet, stop calling him Kyuubi. DMBrandon clarified on stream that it is in fact 9B, and pronounced the way it is spelled. He knows this because he (as he claims) was hanging out with the Japanese and used the name Kyuubi, and they corrected him for it.

Sorry gaiz

 

[Volt_Storm_7]

I respect this opinion and understand why we'd want this to happen. The only problem is sort of what mekos said, the issue seems to be more with our mentality than MK and while banning MK might change that its also not a guarantee. From what I understand America has a history of relying on overpowered tactics as opposed to improving personal skill. Its not just brawl, look at hungrybox. And its not just smash either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw2g1PRYPrA

Im not sure that banning MK will actually cause people to focus on their personal skill, however it doesnt sound like the *** kicking we got from Japan mightve done the trick. At the very least it shows us that our metagame of playing gay linear tactics isnt the games peak.

Ok, I think I was misunderstanding your perspective and didnt convey my point well. I know you do a lot of stuff behind the scenes, so probably arent around to analyze scenes outside the US. However for those who were keeping an eye on other scenes this was not a surprise. Certain people accurately predicted Japanese skill and player success. The people this was a big surprise too were generally the ones that hadnt payed attention to other scenes. Apex isnt extracting a lot of information from a single tournament, it was the fulfillment of the point of view on outside scenes which has been developed from years of analysis. All the ideas, theory, concepts and analysis was already there, apex was just the confirmation.

Youre not incorrect that in terms of results, Apex is just one tournament. The thing I feel like youre neglecting (and this is the bigger point) is that it provides us with a new way to look at all our previous data and puts into question the way it was interpreted before. Not to say that our old perspective needs to just be tossed aside, but its completely reasonable that certain points be brought into question and that discussion on the merits from the different point of view provided to us take place.

Also, I dont think its accurate to use melee tournaments for brawl, lol.

I really like this post.

 

[Sorto]

So basically it wasn't enough that MK took first at Apex, or that he got 2 of top 3, or half of top 8, but on top of that, it had to be US MK's to show that MK is a problem?

The Japanese tolerance may be higher than US tolerance for a character - shouldn't really mean anything here stateside though. Akuma was never banned in Japan but he was in the US - I guess even the FGC got it wrong.

Should we really cater our entire ruleset to the 2-8 Japanese players who come to the US once a year? Further, do people really think not a single non-MK Japanese would show up to further tournaments considering it is among their only shot at money?

We learned that Japan for their first time ever may be better than the US. Cool, that doesn't mean MK should get unbanned or that we should follow their every whim or even assume that what they do is better, when every other year the opposite result (Japan losing) has occurred.

For a guy that pretends to know something, you really are missing the point.

The argument has nothing to do with MK winning and you know it. It has to do with Japan winning.

Japan won because they are at a higher level of play or at the very least equal level of play.

In japan MK is not found to be game breaking or banworthy. Yet, Japan still has a highly competitive scene that lead to a metagame that has evolved quicker then ours.

If Japan who is at a higher level of play says MK is fair then maybe we should look into why they believe this.

When you first played brawl do you remember losing to a DDD or an IC. The first thing a lot of people say is, that chaingrab is so broken, it should be banned. You get to the top level of USA play and ICs and DDD are not winning any major tournaments. We as a community have no right to judge a characters brokeness till we have reached that higher level. Infact the people at that higher level say that MK is completely fair. The best character, but completely fair.

That is the argument.

Japans metagame is past ours.
Japan thinks MK is fair.

Perhaps it is time to look at Japans ruleset for guidance. They don't have the URC, but they still managed to make a competitive ruleset that avoided any character bans (which should be an almost last resort).

There could be so many reasons why Japan succeeded where we failed. Perhaps due to a longer timer, lower stage list, player mentality, lgl or scrooging limits (don't know there stance on this). But it is the same game and it is possible.

The truth is you don't need a character ban lol, you need a URC one. Any group that can call there nonsense official and force people to follow it when they are not top players and the country is not at the top of the metagame is just like that little kid who playing smash the first time says, no you can't spam that move its unfair.

 

[Volt_Storm_7]

For a guy that pretends to know something, you really are missing the point.

The argument has nothing to do with MK winning and you know it. It has to do with Japan winning.

Japan won because they are at a higher level of play or at the very least equal level of play.

In japan MK is not found to be game breaking or banworthy. Yet, Japan still has a highly competitive scene that lead to a metagame that has evolved quicker then ours.

If Japan who is at a higher level of play says MK is fair then maybe we should look into why they believe this.

When you first played brawl do you remember losing to a DDD or an IC. The first thing a lot of people say is, that chaingrab is so broken, it should be banned. You get to the top level of USA play and ICs and DDD are not winning any major tournaments. We as a community have no right to judge a characters brokeness till we have reached that higher level. Infact the people at that higher level say that MK is completely fair. The best character, but completely fair.

That is the argument.

Japans metagame is past ours.
Japan thinks MK is fair.

Perhaps it is time to look at Japans ruleset for guidance. They don't have the URC, but they still managed to make a competitive ruleset that avoided any character bans (which should be an almost last resort).

There could be so many reasons why Japan succeeded where we failed. Perhaps due to a longer timer, lower stage list, player mentality, lgl or scrooging limits (don't know there stance on this). But it is the same game and it is possible.

The truth is you don't need a character ban lol, you need a URC one. Any group that can call there nonsense official and force people to follow it when they are not top players and the country is not at the top of the metagame is just like that little kid who playing smash the first time says, no you can't spam that move its unfair.

My good sir, you are correct about the mind set and rules. Virtual 5.

 

[Toronto Joe]

when i see our olimars get to nietonos level and our ICs match 9bs then come to me and ask me how i feel about banning mk

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

when i see our olimars get to nietonos level and our ICs match 9bs then come to me and ask me how i feel about banning mk

So. Much. This.

 

[Orion*]

I see it as 2 options:

Mk banned, but more diverse stagelist.

Much much more restricted stagelist, but mk legal. By more restricted i mean maybe 7 stages tops , maybe less (AKA japanese stagelist)

Doubles he should be banned regardless of stages imo. In the current state of things you dont have a mk on your team, you lose. There are very few exceptions, such as zss/ness.

stage list needs to be changed in US regardless LMAO

True in theory, horribly wrong in practice.

If you think your going to just pick up mk and make the mk mu 50/50 your mistaken. Mk mains who have played him for a while are so well versed in the mk mu it will be almost impossible to catch them in their proficiency. Your better off using your standard character imo.

This is very untrue.

I played rain at apex 2010 in a MM and homie got 3 stocked game 2.
it was like almost the reverse this apex, i barely took a stock.

if you put in the work like he did it definitely pays off

 

[Omni]

ok so imma make a new ruleset called the "lets beat japan next time" ruleset

stages: sv, fd, bf
mk not banned
the rest is w/e

sound good?

 

[Ussi]

You forgot the ps1, lylat, YI:B counterpick

 

[Omni]

nah, **** that ****

 

[Mekos]

Amazing posts by Cassio and Sorto. My thoughts exactly.

If URC truly wants to unify America's smash scene and wants us to evolve. Hopefully they humble themselves, realize they were wrong, and push us towards Japan's ruleset.

Bottom line URC, It's about player mentality and banning mk won't change that. Please get that through yer heads.
Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw2g1PRYPrA
It's still relevant. I like what Siebrik said. America plays to master gimmicks and not the basics.

 

[Deleted member]

Amazing posts by Cassio and Sorto. My thoughts exactly.

If URC truly wants to unify America's smash scene and wants us to evolve. Hopefully they humble themselves, realize they were wrong, and push us towards Japan's ruleset.

Bottom line URC, It's about player mentality and banning mk won't change that. Please get that through yer heads.
Watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw2g1PRYPrA
It's still relevant. I like what Siebrik said. America plays to master gimmicks and not the basics.

I feel like people need to wait. Let the ban take place and lets see how the metagame progresses then. There's a world outside of MK, you know. MK casts a negative mentality on a lot of players, and maybe in this new positive light we can see things evolve.

If you truly wanted to have Japan's mentality, you wouldn't be focused on winning money. That's not what they aim for.

 

[Omni]

only reason why MK casts a negative light because most people are too salty about him existing. the concept of a best character existing blows people's minds.

 

[Mekos]

@Auspher - See u are proof of a player with a bad mentality no offense. Stop blaming things on mk. Anyone who does that has a bad mentality. I hope u can one day understand that. In life take responsibility for your actions and outcomes and stop blaming others.

The decision to even think about banning him and ban him was wrong in the first place. Why go along with a wrong decision.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

only reason why MK casts a negative light because most people are too salty about him existing. the concept of a best character existing blows people's minds.

"calling other people salty makes me look like a pro"

 

[infiniteV115]

ok so imma make a new ruleset called the "lets beat japan next time" ruleset

stages: sv, fd, bf
mk not banned
the rest is w/e

sound good?

I think it would be more accurate to call it the "Falco/Diddy/ICs" ruleset.

 

[Deleted member]

@Auspher - See u are proof of a player with a bad mentality no offense. Stop blaming things on mk. Anyone who does that has a bad mentality. I hope u can one day understand that. In life take responsibility for your actions and outcomes and stop blaming others.

The decision to even think about banning him and ban him was wrong in the first place. Why go along with a wrong decision.

You say this as if you think he was banned because "we don't like him". There's reasoning behind his ban, you know. You can't say I have a bad mentality because I'm only looking at what's healthiest for the American smash community.

There's a difference between the concept of a best character and a Broken character. This isn't Melee.

 

[Cassio]

I know Ive been a big advocate of not banning MK, but I honestly hope events are run without him too. I posted more of my thoughts on that in the URC thread.

 

[Mekos]

oh goodness please don't tell me u think mk is broken?
Banning a character is the easy way out instead of the community getting better at the game.
That is not healthy for the community.

 

[Deleted member]

How is the community going to get better?

Pick MK.

What character won Apex?

....yeah.

 

[zmx]

How is the community going to get better?

Pick MK.

What character won Apex?

....yeah.

Did you read even a single post in this topic?

 

[WindMajor]

I hope everybody can learn from Mekos' words and legalize more stages.

 

[Thino]

Pro-bans will probably not care about Japan's win because Japan's metagame presumed superiority has never been part of their reasoning behind MK ban.

If anything, not only they will say that Japan needs more wins against U.S AND with a character that is not MK before it starts ringing a bell to them since their main argument is based on tournament results

 

[zmx]

Pro-bans will probably not care about Japan's win because Japan's metagame presumed superiority has never been part of their reasoning behind MK ban.

If anything, not only they will say that Japan needs more wins against U.S AND with a character that is not MK before it starts ringing a bell to them since their main argument is based on tournament results

Actually no. It has always been part of the reasoning for the ban.

Here's how it went

1. US banned MK
2. Players stated that if Euro/Japan hadn't banned him what made US think their region was special and needed to?
3. The response was that the US had all the best MKs by FAR and thus dominated their region. They had evolved his metagame to make him the most broken he could be and thus now was banworthy.
4. After Apex this assumptions have been proven false. Japanese MKs won both singles and doubles.

 

[M@v]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I'm here to give the best competitive ruleset people want as a whole(You can't make everyone happy sadly ). I personally don't mind mk as a player and I am perfectly fine playing in mk legal or mk banned events. Why did I vote to ban mk? There were a few reasons, including over centralization, but the one that swayed my vote more than anything else was the vote of YOU guys.

I never would of imagined 76% of voters(In a very large poll that had measures in place to prevent smurf accounts) would of voted so lop-sided to ban mk. The unofficial AiB poll had similar results, but I took those cautiously since smurf accounts could be used. That sends a really strong message.

In addition, the community is what sparked our discussion of mk's legality in the URC. People were starting to run MK banned tournaments as an experimental ruleset, and they started becoming more popular and common across the country.

I look at TOing like this. I'm the vendor. I'm here to sell my customers(tournament attendees) a product they want. In that case, this is a ruleset. My job is to offer a competitve ruleset my community wants. My community wanted a mk ban. So I gave it to them. If the community wants mk back and a much more limited stage list than we are used to here in the US, I would have no qualms giving it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

How is the community going to get better?

Pick MK.

What character won Apex?

....yeah.

You're completely missing the point.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Omni]

"calling other people salty makes me look like a pro"

wat

I think it would be more accurate to call it the "Falco/Diddy/ICs" ruleset.

yea those stages do cater to those characters but its not by choice. if we were catering to characters wed be trying to open stages for all characters in the game to have an advantage on, lol.

the point of having a conservative stagelist is to bring focus more to actual character vs. character interaction which in turn forces players better their character rather then lean on stage cp gimmicks.

 

[Cassio]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I'm here to give the best competitive ruleset people want as a whole(You can't make everyone happy sadly ). I personally don't mind mk as a player and I am perfectly fine playing in mk legal or mk banned events. Why did I vote to ban mk? There were a few reasons, including over centralization, but the one that swayed my vote more than anything else was the vote of YOU guys.

I never would of imagined 76% of voters(In a very large poll that had measures in place to prevent smurf accounts) would of voted so lop-sided to ban mk. The unofficial AiB poll had similar results, but I took those cautiously since smurf accounts could be used. That sends a really strong message.

In addition, the community is what sparked our discussion of mk's legality in the URC. People were starting to run MK banned tournaments as an experimental thing, and they started becoming more popular and common across the country.

I look at TOing like this. I'm the vendor. I'm here to sell my customers(tournament attendees) a product they want. In that case, this is a ruleset. My job is to offer a competitve ruleset my community wants. My community wanted a mk ban. So I gave it to them. If the community wants mk back and a much more limited stage list than we are used to here in the US, I would have no qualms giving it.

That poll wasnt very valid or accurate in the first place. Aside from that though, what about specific regions that didnt want MK banned? What if 70% of Arizona wanted him to remain legal, how were you accomodating them?

 

[zmx]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; I'm here to give the best competitive ruleset people want as a whole(You can't make everyone happy sadly ). I personally don't mind mk as a player and I am perfectly fine playing in mk legal or mk banned events. Why did I vote to ban mk? There were a few reasons, including over centralization, but the one that swayed my vote more than anything else was the vote of YOU guys.

I never would of imagined 76% of voters(In a very large poll that had measures in place to prevent smurf accounts) would of voted so lop-sided to ban mk. That sends a really strong message.

I look at TOing like this. I'm the vendor. I'm here to sell my customers a product they want. In that case, this is a ruleset. My job is to offer a competitve ruleset my community wants. My community wanted a mk ban. So I gave it to them. If the community wants mk back and a much more limited stage list than we are used to here in the US, I would have no qualms giving it.

I've addressed this many times. I'll do it once more because I believe you haven't seen it and aren't just pushing the same arguments for the sake of it.

1. It was one poll. Not several. It would make more sense to either do several polls or one large poll that's advertised all over the site so no one just misses it.
2. Obviously pro-banners cared more about it as opposed to those satisfied with the norm. Thus they were much more likely to vote.
3. Ad populum fallacy. Whatever the majority thinks doesn't necessarily make it right. For instance, if you were to ask every brawl player whether or not they think it's a competitive game, considering casuals dominate in every market what do you think their response will be? You claim to cater to the majority. Why are you not catering to the casuals instead of the comp. community when the numbers are so fewer?