Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Black Mantis]

What do you want it to look like? A bunch of equal bars?

I would expect it to be fairly distributed amongst the cast. Sure some characters may be better than others but there is not one character who is blatantly better than the rest. MK even has his own tier.

 

[Merkuri]

I think metaknight should definitely(not maybe) be unbanned in 9-months to a year to see how the new metagame compares to him. In addition, I think he should be restricted, essentially soft banned when this happen. In France they host tournaments where Metaknight is legal on neutrals only, and he can't be played on Counterpick stages. I think we should try adopting that in America and see how it works out for us.

 

[Flayl]

That's the worst scenario, that's admitting he's broken but making up convoluted ways to not hurt anyone's feelings.

 

[popsofctown]

that's not what soft ban means

that's what scrubbiness means

the french invented en passant, they are historical masters of scrubbiness

 

[Merkuri]

That's the worst scenario, that's admitting he's broken but making up convoluted ways to not hurt anyone's feelings.

It's admitting he is overpowered, not broken. I also think it is the fairest thing to do, and the method that has the highest chance of actually being popular.

It's not fair to ban MK to MK mains, at the sametime it's not fair to ban stages because of MK. Some kind of compromise needs to be reached and I think this is it.

 

[C.J.]

Maybe not in bracket, but I know Ramin and Leon lost sets to MK in MMs and Leon in the spot for the crew battle.

I did mean bracket/pools, my mistake.

 

[Cygnet]

I think metaknight should definitely(not maybe) be unbanned in 9-months to a year to see how the new metagame compares to him. In addition, I think he should be restricted, essentially soft banned when this happen. In France they host tournaments where Metaknight is legal on neutrals only, and he can't be played on Counterpick stages. I think we should try adopting that in America and see how it works out for us.

I think after 9 months, not all people will be willing to just accept an unban like that, or the ban might not have the effect we want it to if people know it's just going to be undone after a while.

Also, after 9 months, (if anti-ban is to be believed) our metagame will be really, really behind and/or adversely affected, even if it's reversed in the future.

Although I really like the France "MK banned on CPs" idea, because the way it looks right now, we have two choices:

- Keep MK legal, get rid of a bunch of CPs
- Keep the CPs, get rid of MK

And this French system allows us to have both simultaneously. (Although I still prefer the Japanese ruleset entirely because it's much more conducive to overall improvement than any other ruleset.)

After all, controlling for all those wild variables like stages can only help you improve overall and more generally.

(Also, am I the only person who thinks that MK's centralization is actually good for our metagame?)

 

[Sorto]

As a translator at Apex I heard multiple people ask this question and there was a general consesus with the Japanese members and those they represented.

Japan would not copy an MK ban. They do not endorse the ban for two reasons:

1.) The biggest reason is the fact that many players have devoted many hours of practice to learning this character, an MK ban would turn people away from this game and would be rude to those who have devoted the time to learn this game.

2.) They do not believe that MK ban is necessary to balance the game. Although they agree that the US stagelist is a different situation, in Japan they do not feel like he is dominate enough to issue a ban. They feel that the feelings for the US ban comes from having too many stages that MK is dominate and open the game up to a campier game for MK.

I heard nientono saying how he hates playing MKs at delfino, even though it is generally a good stage for olimar. In that MU he feels that it always ends up MK sharking during the non-solid stage and stalling in the other transitions to keep the advantage. He feels that it is neither fun to play or fun to watch.

During the last apex they felt that US's MKs were further ahead in the metagame, it has become apparent that they have done their homework and stepped up their game. They wouldn't go so far as saying that their MKs are better than ours, but they have often said that they feel that their top players were on par with the US's top players, but the US has a larger pool of top players.

Now this is my own opinion, but taking everything that I have heard into account it seems that we are at a crossroads. While it is apparent that many people want change in the ruleset that MK ban has become less popular with the results of Apex. I feel we either have to ban MK, or we have to start aggressively banning stages. I would actually like to see the US using Japanese ruleset and seeing how that fares, the fact that Japan has a much smaller player pool but has very good top players seems evidence that they are doing something right. I'd love to see the unity ruleset have a complete overhaul, but until then I still agree that something has to be done.

Thanks for the info.

And I agree with you that an overhaul needs to be done.

I would much rather see a stagelist change then a character ban. Since Japan is proof enough that a different ruleset can still be competitve, yeild great results, and keep the entire cast legal.

 

[zmx]

The only people that lose out with MK legal and a conservative stagelist are people that rely massively on gimmicky CPs to win. It's not fair that we cater to these people instead of those that actually want to get better and advance the competitive scene. It's obvious which mindset is more healthy.

To those that say we shoudln't be surprised and that perhaps Japan just has naturally has better players:

NA won Apex 09, 10, Genesis 2 etc.

They clearly realized NA was better at the time (especially 2010) and put in the work to get better. To suggest it's due to genetics is an insult to both Japan and NA and all the hard work they put in. Not to mention it's one of the laziest excuses ever.

 

[The Ben]

Edit: I suck at reading.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

And this French system allows us to have both simultaneously. (Although I still prefer the Japanese ruleset entirely because it's much more conducive to overall improvement than any other ruleset.)

It also leads to ridiculous situations like Monkey Unit 8 (IIRC), where Deimos solidly beat Myollnir's ICs (like, really solidly) on battlefield with Metaknight, and then Myollnir counterpicked him to Delfino, forcing him to switch characters to a character he was less capable with. ****ed up.

 

[Mekos]

I love how the URC never responds to posts that are make sense and heavily support not banning mk. Like what Sneakytako said the Japanese players said on this matter.

Anyways I hope we limit the stages and keep mk legal.
If u feel bad a stage u like gets taken out just play it during friendlies...

 

[John12346]

I have a bit of an important question, then.

The justification behind banning of Brinstar/RC/Delfino/Frigate:

Is it because of Meta Knight's existence, or because they're all janky stages? This is directed at anyone who wants to limit the stages and keep MK legal.

 

[Mekos]

It is not because of mk's existence.

Many characters get heavy advantages over others on certain stages. Why add in such an extra heavy factor. We should try and limit this. Of course we can't make it perfect but why have more than less.
People have realized certain stages give heavy advantages and have focused on abusing that in certain cases. I don't think they are janky, I just think basic stages are best for competitive play.

We want a more player skill vs player skill battle. That is why items is not involved and why we don't play on jungle japes.

 

[Omni]

I have a bit of an important question, then.

The justification behind banning of Brinstar/RC/Delfino/Frigate:

Is it because of Meta Knight's existence, or because they're all janky stages? This is directed at anyone who wants to limit the stages and keep MK legal.

I would say a combination of both.

 

[John12346]

It is not because of mk's existence.

Many characters get heavy advantages over others on certain stages. Why add in such an extra heavy factor. We should try and limit this. Of course we can't make it perfect but why have more than less.
People have realized certain stages give heavy advantages and have focused on abusing that in certain cases. I don't think they are janky, I just think basic stages are best for competitive play.

We want a more player skill vs player skill battle. That is why items is not involved and why we don't play on jungle japes.

Then I think the problem becomes whether or not it's a smart idea to be driving Brawl towards or away from a counterpick-styled game.

Keep in mind that there's plenty of strategy behind a more complex counterpick system, and being able to counterpick successfully can be considered as a subset of skills that are being tested... The problem becomes, in that case, do we want to make this part of the skills that we want to test?

I would say a combination of both.

Alright, so, let's put to the test how janky each of the 4 stages is. What, in your opinion, makes them bad for competitive play? Ignore MK's existence for now; briefly tell me your thoughts on each stage.

 

[Omni]

let's put to the test how janky each of the 4 stages is. What, in your opinion, makes them bad for competitive play? Ignore MK's existence for now; briefly tell me your thoughts on each stage.

They're not bad for competitive play. Skyworld isn't bad for competitive play. Essentially, mastering the entire stagelist is its own form of competition.

What I, and I think some of us, are suggesting is that the removal of those stages will allow our metagame to focus more on character vs. character interaction. This should, in turn, steer towards a metagame that's more focused about mastery of one's character as opposed to the concept of trying gain a sizable advantage through stage selection.

I know the question that follows afterwards, but I'll wait to hear it from you first.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's the worst scenario, that's admitting he's broken but making up convoluted ways to not hurt anyone's feelings.

Really? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'm cool with that. I've been wrong before, I'll be wrong again, and I'll (usually unless I'm trolling :D) admit it.

So, the MK ban.

My issue with pro-ban currently is that many of them really understand why MK is stupid to begin with. His ability to hang out between the ledge and lower-left and lower-right quadrants of the screen, and in many cases, under it, is beyond regulation and the only real reason MK ever loses on a ton of "starter" stages is because he chooses to engage his opponent in combat when he doesn't have to. That's what makes MK broken.

We can regulate that and say "MK can only grab the ledge X times," "MK can only fly under the stage once," "MK must not land on the smashville platform after flying under the stage," ban Smashville, etc. but none of that changes the fact that his ability to survive without landing on the ground pretty much indefinitely against most of the cast is broken and toxic to a competitive environment. If most of us didn't think so, we wouldn't have stalling rules at all.

That's why I voted "yes" in the poll, and in the end, I believe the majority of our community should have a final say.

However: I don't personally really care about his win rate very much, I don't care about how much money he takes home, because recently I'm of the opinion that it doesn't matter very much in the end. To me, it would be better to keep MK if most of us wanted him to stick around. Whatever.

I'd love to see ICs or Olimar or Diddy or any other top-level characters beat a top MK on Smashville who doesn't want to fight, though.

 

[Sorto]

I have a bit of an important question, then.

The justification behind banning of Brinstar/RC/Delfino/Frigate:

Is it because of Meta Knight's existence, or because they're all janky stages? This is directed at anyone who wants to limit the stages and keep MK legal.

Limit them so matches test player vs player skill not stage gimmicks, stage knowledge, and stage abuse. Pick them so there is less match interference.

This concept is being based on Japan > US. And at a higher level of play they believe MK to not be banworthy. They created a ruleset that keeps all of the character legal and generates a quicker evolution of the metagame.

If a community/players at a higher level of play says these are good competitive rules and these are the characters who are fair, then it is important to listen. When the US is at an equal level to Japan it would be fair for them to argue for an MK ban, if he still seems overpowering. But till we are there, getting better does seem to be a viable option and Japan is practically proof of that.

A character ban should be a last resort. And regardless it is a ridiculous resort when better players say it is NOT necessary. It is like a scrub playing melee for the first time against a peach who is abusing down smash. It is very safe, very quick, and can pack on 64% on one hit. The unskilled player keeps getting caught and screams ban, ban, ban. But ask any pro, the move is good. But it is only that, very good. It is not game breaking, it is not banworthy, and peach isn't even the best character. There is another level and japan is proof of it. No calls for banning should be made till that level is reached.

Reach the level however you wish, but Japan has a ruleset that allowed them to reach it quicker and with less play time in general.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

"Last resort?" Give me a break. We could ALWAYS do something else. We could ban RC/brinstar, fine, then what? What if he still dominates? Ban smashville? Introduce food? Perform seppuku?

"Last resort" is the ultimate slippery slope fallacy. There's no true "last resort," only extra things we can do to delay this rule you don't want.

 

[Sorto]

"Last resort?" Give me a break. We could ALWAYS do something else. We could ban RC/brinstar, fine, then what? What if he still dominates? Ban smashville? Introduce food? Perform seppuku?

"Last resort" is the ultimate slippery slope fallacy. There's no true "last resort," only extra things we can do to delay the inevitable.

Fair enough. But since you are good at picking one thing out. How about commenting on the rest?

 

[Omni]

"Last resort" is the ultimate slippery slope fallacy. There's no true "last resort," only extra things we can do to delay this rule you don't want.

I think this is a bit extreme.

 

[John12346]

They're not bad for competitive play. Skyworld isn't bad for competitive play. Essentially, mastering the entire stagelist is its own form of competition.

What I, and I think some of us, are suggesting is that the removal of those stages will allow our metagame to focus more on character vs. character interaction. This should, in turn, steer towards a metagame that's more focused about mastery of one's character as opposed to the concept of trying gain a sizable advantage through stage selection.

I know the question that follows afterwards, but I'll wait to hear it from you first.

Actually, I have no idea what question follows next. Fill me in?

We can regulate that and say "MK can only grab the ledge X times," "MK can only fly under the stage once," "MK must not land on the smashville platform after flying under the stage," ban Smashville, etc. but none of that changes the fact that his ability to survive without landing on the ground pretty much indefinitely against most of the cast is broken and toxic to a competitive environment. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have stalling rules at all.

That's why I voted "yes" in the poll, and in the end, I believe the majority of our community should have a final say.

I'd love to see ICs or Olimar or Diddy or any other top-level characters beat a top MK on Smashville who doesn't want to fight, though.

And about this... I'm in the middle of making, like, a 2 page writeup about this, because I realized recently that's what my criteria has ultimately shifted to. It definitely needs to be looked into over any other criteria thus far. But, to anyone who's wondering why I'm pursuing other points aside from the surgical argument, well, I'm just looking to delve further into other topics, to see what other people are thinking is all. You'll notice that I'm asking more questions than arguing at this point.

I'm going to put it out right now that I fully recognize now that everything that ISN'T essentially what SFP stated in his quote above is not a viable ban criteria, but it is necessary to exist for the ban to be pushed through more smoothly. For example, if it were, say Ganon with the unbeatable timing out tactics, but he still retained his crappy moveset and still brought in the money he currently does now, I think we'd be holding off on a ban for him, even if we had to surgically nerf him in our ruleset, y'know what I mean?

So... things like winning a ****load of money, killing hype, having an OP CP game... they're not ban criteria, but rather ban... side dishes? Idk lol

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Really? I mean cultural considerations are my "specialty." I've commented on that exact subject numerous times.

The short answer though is: Japan isn't going scrooge ICs for 10 minutes to win a game, probably. M2k? Definitely. Money on the line, baby

 

[Sorto]

Really? I mean cultural considerations are my "specialty." I've commented on that exact subject numerous times.

The short answer though is: Japan isn't going scrooge ICs for 10 minutes to win a game, probably. M2k? Definitely. Money on the line, baby

But they still beat us too. And there was a lot of money on the line.

 

[Omni]

Really? I mean cultural considerations are my "specialty." I've commented on that exact subject numerous times.

The short answer though is: Japan isn't going scrooge ICs for 10 minutes to win a game, probably. M2k? Definitely. Money on the line, baby

Most money on the line at Apex. M2K loses to Ocean.

I don't like your short answer.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

But they still beat us too. And there was a lot of money on the line.

Japan whooped America. I believed they would. They are better players.

But the problem here is that you haven't even considered that there might be reasons beyond their ruleset. Maybe these players are just more talented. Maybe they just practice a lot more. Maybe X, maybe Y, you don't know and there's no reason to even have that argument.

I do know this though: MK didn't play with avoidance in general, at Apex, and still won.

Most money on the line at Apex. M2K loses to Ocean.

I don't like your short answer.

Ocean didn't even win money. He beat a Meta Knight that didn't simply like, hit him once and then proceed to avoid combat (notice M2k won game 2 lol) in 2 out of 3 games.

You love to point out all of these times that MK loses, but fail to even consider that the MK player simply isn't taking advantage of all of his tools/inherent capabilities. If Fox broke a guy's shield and jabbed him out of it when he could have used usmash and won, you wouldn't say Fox sucks, you'd say the Fox player made a mistake. Maybe a bad example, I dunno.

Unrelated, slightly: my personal opinion on that game is that m2k slept on ROB at first. Had he scrooged/ran away all game during game 1, he had multiple chances to camp like **** and win.

 

[Sorto]

@john#
Brinstar- Random lava saves, allows for sharking tactics, only legal stage where you can refresh your moves on the stage, breaking the middle platform makes stalling and camping fest.

RC - huge buff to floaties and huge hinderance to tethers. Almost forces a tether ban. Large stage allows for excessive camping and stalling.

Delfino- Sharking, walk offs, breaks standard smash rules by having a lot of places where there are no true pits, has small walls allowing for wall infinites

Frigate- random stage turns that could lead to lucky kos (we are testing skill not luck). Transformation are varied enough that some people play hoping to get "lucky" and get one transformation.

Now explain to me why every banned stage is banned? Some are iffy.

It really depends on the skills you wanna test. And I thought the community wanted to test player vs player character skill. Not gimmick abuse. Japan tests player vs player and we test janky stages. Who ended up on top?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It really depends on the skills you wanna test. And I thought the community wanted to test player vs player character skill. Not gimmick abuse. Japan tests player vs player and we test janky stages. Who ended up on top?

Yeah, I mean, this information is definitely enough to draw a conclusion about Japan's skill level. You can definitely reduce an entire group of people to one ridiculous, low-level statement without considering their personal habits, practice schedules, inherent level of talent, or cultural traits.

 

[Sorto]

Japan whooped America. I believed they would. They are better players.

But the problem here is that you haven't even considered that there might be reasons beyond their ruleset. Maybe these players are just more talented. Maybe they just practice a lot more. Maybe X, maybe Y, you don't know and there's no reason to even have that argument.

I do know this though: MK didn't play with avoidance in general, at Apex, and still won.



Ocean didn't even win money. He beat a Meta Knight that didn't simply like, hit him once and then proceed to avoid combat (notice M2k won game 2 lol) in 2 out of 3 games.

You love to point out all of these times that MK loses, but fail to even consider that the MK player simply isn't taking advantage of all of his tools/inherent capabilities. If Fox broke a guy's shield and jabbed him out of it when he could have used usmash and won, you wouldn't say Fox sucks, you'd say the Fox player made a mistake. Maybe a bad example, I dunno.

Unrelated, slightly: my personal opinion on that game is that m2k slept on ROB at first. Had he scrooged/ran away all game during game 1, he had multiple chances to camp like **** and win.

It is rather illogical to say that Japan is just simply better. It is possible but unlikely. Just genetics? So let's remove that for a second.
It could be more practice. But that would still be an excuse to KEEP MK. Practice more and then you can beat him too.

Or as I first stated, they are better because they created a ruleset that allows for better evolution of the metagame.

It could be player mentality, but still that is not MKs fault.

Japan has the same game with MK and it works. No matter what reasons you state as to why, it is not MKs fault, but it is the players here not living up to the players in Japan. Bad players is not a reason to ban a character. They are better players and say he is legal and not banworthy. Unless you can proof some sort of genetic defiancy in all of america.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It is rather illogical to say that Japan is just simply better. It is possible but unlikely. It could be more practice. But that would still be an excuse to KEEP MK. Practice more and then you can beat him too. Or as I first stated, they are better because they created a ruleset that allows for better evolution of the metagame.

Um, you haven't really addressed my real concern with MK. I don't care that Mk won. The highest MK could have placed like 20th and I would still think MK is broken unless said MK players stalled out every game and still lost hard.

here's the bottom line:

MK has 6 jumps, 3 perfectly safe recovery moves, 2 glides with attacks that are almost completely safe, and most stages allow him to abuse these traits to almost entirely avoid combat. MK has flaws on-stage if he chooses to fight, like aerials that are really easy to beat by anyone with a disjoint and slow air speed, but if he chooses to like tornado twice and then simply not fight you forever, there is zero almost anyone in the entire cast can do to make him. If you can't show me an example of Meta Knight being BEATEN when using this technique, I'll consider changing my stance (as if my stance matters).

 

[Omni]

Ocean didn't even win money. He beat a Meta Knight that didn't simply like, hit him once and then proceed to avoid combat (notice M2k won game 2 lol) in 2 out of 3 games.

You love to point out all of these times that MK loses, but fail to even consider that the MK player simply isn't taking advantage of all of his tools/inherent capabilities. If Fox broke a guy's shield and jabbed him out of it when he could have used usmash and won, you wouldn't say Fox sucks, you'd say the Fox player made a mistake. Maybe a bad example, I dunno.

Unrelated, slightly: my personal opinion on that game is that m2k slept on ROB at first. Had he scrooged/ran away all game during game 1, he had multiple chances to camp like **** and win.

Firstly, I was simply stating an obvious contradiction in your statement. As long as you are involved in the tournament money is always on the line.

I agree with your second statement. However, the scenario you are arguing didn't seem to play out once at Apex. There are a lot of lame scenarios that could play out such as a G&W or Jigglypuff planking (which is extremely powerful). Have you seen the video of the Snake who C4's himself under Final Destination for 10 minutes? The game is open in a way that a lot of broken strategies could play out, but they don't. The smash realm is different from other fighting game realm's in which the limitations of what a character can do within a stage are vast. Pointing out one scenario and saying "this could happen" when it nearly ever happens isn't a strong argument. It is valid, but it isn't strong.

However, there is even an argument vs. scrooging that is valid, but also isn't strong: Don't lose the life lead.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It DOES happen, it just only happens when M2k doesn't think he can win by fighting. See M2k vs. ICs a bunch of times. He can do that to every character, he just chooses not to.

With m2k specifically, it usually depends on whether or not he thinks fighting the opponent can win the match. If he doesn't think so, he has ol' faithful to fall back on.

 

[Sorto]

Um, you haven't really addressed my real concern with MK. I don't care that Mk won. The highest MK could have placed like 20th and I would still think MK is broken unless said MK players stalled out every game and still lost hard.

Sorry, I edited my last post, so re read.

And to your new post.

Are ICs allowed to stall in this scenario?
Other characters as well?
Because stalling is banned, so MK is breaking the rules if he is stalling.

 

[Omni]

MK has 6 jumps, 3 perfectly safe recovery moves, 2 glides with attacks that are almost completely safe, and most stages allow him to abuse these traits to almost entirely avoid combat. MK has flaws on-stage if he chooses to fight, like aerials that are really easy to beat by anyone with a disjoint and slow air speed, but if he chooses to like tornado twice and then simply not fight you forever, there is zero almost anyone in the entire cast can do to make him. If you can't show me an example of Meta Knight being BEATEN when using this technique, I'll consider changing my stance (as if my stance matters).

Show us an example of a Metaknight doing this.

I already told you the answer: Don't lose the life lead.

Edit: And you are exaggerating heavily bro. Try to stay objective.

 

[John12346]

I already told you the answer: Don't lose the life lead.

Er... I don't think it's statistically possible for every match ever in Brawl to have Meta Knight not gain a stock lead, y'know...?

With that said, I'm going to a run a project of my own in secret, starting whenever I go to my next tournament, regarding MK being 2good defensively and all that.

Brinstar- Random lava saves, allows for sharking tactics, only legal stage where you can refresh your moves on the stage, breaking the middle platform makes stalling and camping fest.

RC - huge buff to floaties and huge hinderance to tethers. Almost forces a tether ban. Large stage allows for excessive camping and stalling.

Delfino- Sharking, walk offs, breaks standard smash rules by having a lot of places where there are no true pits, has small walls allowing for wall infinites

Frigate- random stage turns that could lead to lucky kos (we are testing skill not luck). Transformation are varied enough that some people play hoping to get "lucky" and get one transformation.

Well, I was gonna explain why each facet of these stages are merely counterpick qualities and completely fine to be used in competitive play, but we seem to already semi-agree on that point, and kinda...

It really depends on the skills you wanna test.

...disagree on this point.

Now explain to me why every banned stage is banned? Some are iffy.

Just to get this out of the way, off the top of my head, stages are banned for:
- permanent walls/walkoffs(Delfino only has temporary)
- random, uncontrollable factors(in the case of Frigate, you need to go in prepared for both phases of the stage, and Brinstar's acid is NOT random)
- super damaging/high knockback hazards

Japan tests player vs player and we test janky stages. Who ended up on top?

Japan being better than us in Brawl != Japan having the superior ruleset.

There are plenty of other explanations that exist to explain why Japan trounced us at Apex, aside from "they practiced under a superior ruleset," with the predominant one being that they're JAPAN, but there were some other explanations that I can't remember atm, ask other people.

 

[Ussi]

You could use the no stall stage list:

Starter:

SV
BF
FD/YI:B

CP:

YI:B/FD
Lylat

YI:B doesn't have any stall on it. All transformation stages are stally because people will stall a transformation that puts them at a disadvantage. PS1 always goes to timeout between two campy chars (IE Yoshi vs Pit)

 

[Omni]

Er... I don't think it's statistically possible for every match ever in Brawl to have Meta Knight not gain a stock lead, y'know...?

I think the player who is playing better at any given moment of a round will have the least amount of percentage compared to his opponent. Do you agree?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I've literally said almost everything I can in this thread without us going in circles, but this caught my eye:

You could use the no stall stage list:

Starter:

SV

SV is incredibly easy to stall on, especially for MK.

 

[zmx]

"There are plenty of other explanations that exist to explain why Japan trounced us at Apex, aside from "they practiced under a superior ruleset," with the predominant one being that they're JAPAN, but there were some other explanations that I can't remember atm, ask other people."

And what is that supposed to mean? "They're JAPAN"

If you really think that's a satisfactory answer you just lost a lot of credibility.