Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Omni]

You can't ban a character and analyze if he is good or bad for the game people.

You're simply playing two different games. The only thing you can say after the fact is if you think the game is more fun, lol. But both are clearly competitive.

 

[Exceladon City]

Personally, I think since we've already agreed to ban MK, let's keep him banned for about 6 months. To see where the metagame is gonna go without him. See what happens when the MK mains that continued to play pick a different character and do work with them. We've advanced MK's metagame far enough, let's work on the others.

To all the crybabies: Playing him outside of tournament isn't prohibited, so you should quit crying "Waaah but the match-up practice!! " Maybe if you would go hard in your practicing instead of bull****ting around because it's just "friendlies" then you could learn some ****.

But seeing as how everyone plays for the $$$, I have a feeling everyone is gonna be back to playing gay with MK and not advancing the metagame but stagnating it because they don't want to lose. Like I said in a previous thread:

"The top level American players have gotten complacent with their skills. They've gotten complacent with being "good enough" to win in their region. So long as they are able to place in the money, they couldn't care less about getting better so long as they don't get worse."

Just my 2 Abes.

 

[The Ben]

That logic makes 0 sense. If you're competing for money so is everyone else at the tournament. If anything money being involved would motivate the bottom players to compete with the top, and once that happens the top will need to keep getting better to compete with the other people trying to get money. If you think motivators make people lazy you should take a psych class.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

Personally, I think since we've already agreed to ban MK, let's keep him banned for about 6 months. To see where the metagame is gonna go without him. See what happens when the MK mains that continued to play pick a different character and do work with them. We've advanced MK's metagame far enough, let's work on the others.

To all the crybabies: Playing him outside of tournament isn't prohibited, so you should quit crying "Waaah but the match-up practice!! " Maybe if you would go hard in your practicing instead of bull****ting around because it's just "friendlies" then you could learn some ****.

But seeing as how everyone plays for the $$$, I have a feeling everyone is gonna be back to playing gay with MK and not advancing the metagame but stagnating it because they don't want to lose. Like I said in a previous thread:

"The top level American players have gotten complacent with their skills. They've gotten complacent with being "good enough" to win in their region. So long as they are able to place in the money, they couldn't care less about getting better so long as they don't get worse."

Just my 2 Abes.

Omg... you like... read my mind~ lmao

@ben Sure money is great to 'influence' you to get better.. but as Excel said.. you have the top players of a region/country who consistent place top... after a while they may stop trying to improve as they know they will make money regardless of training and what not. Then you have issues with severely lower skilled people vs the higher ranks. So then that may make the higher skilled players even less likely to get better. Though I don't think this has anything to do with MK.. or him getting banned. lol

 

[Exceladon City]

That logic makes 0 sense. If you're competing for money so is everyone else at the tournament. If anything money being involved would motivate the bottom players to compete with the top, and once that happens the top will need to keep getting better to compete with the other people trying to get money. If you think motivators make people lazy you should take a psych class.

You'd be surprised at how many people play the game for the sake of being the best with their character whether they make money or not. The money is just an added bonus.

Motivators don't make people lazy, but it sure as hell doesn't make them anymore productive. There's a phrase called "Work smarter; not harder." People want to do the minimal amount of work necessary to get by. This applies in everything that has some kind of payment.

 

[Omni]

There's a phrase called "Work smarter; not harder." People want to do the minimal amount of work necessary to get by. This applies in everything that has some kind of payment.

If that were the case everyone would pick the highest tiered character in any competitive fighting game. Large generalization is a generalized.

 

[Exceladon City]

If that were the case everyone would pick the highest tiered character in any competitive fighting game. Large generalization is a generalized.

People still have character pride and others are pretty incompetent with any other character. I'm pretty mediocre with most of the top characters in the game and I've always had an easier time with mid tiers. Please believe that if there's another Smash, I will be picking THE best character. After the **** I've gone through with , I'd rather be part of the problem...atleast I'll be winning.

 

[Browny]

Large generalization is a generalized.

What the hell is this.

The phrase is '[X] [Y] is [X]'

 

[Omni]

The fact that you think the best character in a competitive game is a "problem" troubles me.

@Browny: Lol, remove the "a".

 

[Exceladon City]

The fact that you think the best character in a competitive game is a "problem" troubles me.

@Browny: Lol, remove the "a".

At the moment MK is viewed as a "problem" because of his dominance and inherent busted abilities. Honestly, the only reason I'm not apart of that "problem" is due to the fact that I was stupid 3.5 years ago and didn't think about picking the best character because I wanted to do well with my character choice. But I'm smarter now and I know better.

 

[Global Gaming]

You guys do know that no one is forcing you to ban MK at your tournaments?

If you want to host a tournament with MK legal, then do so. Who gives a **** about what the BBR or whoever made the ban's opinion is.

Stop moaning.

 

[B.A.M.]

I'll test it tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure Control Stick ISSDI and Cstick ISSDI move the same length, because Control Stick inputs represent "direction," and Cstick inputs merely represent "direction + attack," so why would there be a difference, right?

John..................forward input will always move more than the backward input, especially with a dash shield in place. Because of this, its a solid option select. Its infinitely better than the Metagame minute one because you will RETREAT Roll, which will save you for getting it in case you were wrong. You're in Smash Labs my bro, I know Delux wrote it up somewhere. I have been working on Option Selects independently for a bit, so has Delux, so we know about these things.

MK can only perfect plank if he lets go immediately afterwards. it cannot be buffered btw. Regardless this tech punishes perfect planking. it isnt that hard to pick up if people put the effort into it. The thing is this stuff has been posted around these boards and yet noone gives a damn still. This speaks VOLUMES about how much people really cared. Every anti or pro ban should be learning this. period.

Again, there are ALREADY people using this with positive results. However, we need to entire community to get on this. Message Delux when you can, he has more info on the numbers involved. Lol people need to really listen to mah dude. Fool drops knowledge daily and everyone couldnt care less. But of course that always seems to be the story.


@Jebus: yes of course, I will buffer a grab while Im in the air. Stop acting ******** and think about the entirety of the situation.



NOTE THE OS ( OPTION SELECT) I AM SPEAKING OF IS NOT THE METAGAME MINUTE ONE. THIS ONE IS EXPONENTIALLY BETTER THAN IT DUE TO ITS SAFETY AGAINST MIXUP SCENARIOS.

 

[Jdietz43]

No, my feelings haven't changed. I'm still quite for the ban.

In fact: if MK hadn't been banned I wouldn't be here discussing it with you right now. I left Brawl a while back after getting tired of people losing one match to Luigi then switching to MK because they knew it was a way easier match-up to dodge my short range with. This would be fine if this was the exception instead of the rule, but after awhile I just got sick of coming to tourneys just to fight one match of a random character, then two losses to MK followed by a losers bracket where everyone has also decided to pull out MK.

Sure I like to win as much as the next guy, and losing gets my goat. But at a certain point I can't justify paying my entry fee just to fight MK over and over and lose. There are some out there who have honed their skills to the point they have decent odds against the MK swarm, but for most of us they're the outlying player we only dream of being as good as, and the fact even they had major troubles beating the masked menace meant we didn't have much to hope for. It was killing the game, or should I say DID kill the game for me since I stopped playing largely because of it. When I can go roughly even (usually losing) with my tourney friend Luigi vs D3 after years of playing, then try MK for a day and beat him flat without actually paying attention to the fight something is wrong. (true story)

I'm back because MK isn't, read into that what you will. You can call me a wuss, a scrub, a bad player, whatever you feel like it's probably true. But at the end of the day I tried my staunchest to keep my chin up and keep fighting for two years straight for the sheer fun of the game, but I gave in to the caped wonder. It's hard to hear "I'm going MK now, sorry, you understand" from people who have skill and other characters you respect when they beat you and not feel like the world is a slightly worse place for it.

 

[zmx]

"When I can go roughly even (usually losing) with my tourney friend Luigi vs D3 after years of playing, then try MK for a day and beat him flat without actually paying attention to the fight something is wrong. (true story)"

No offense but all this shows is that your friend isn't very good either if he loses to a day old MK with his main. And if you are performing better with a day old character, rather than your main for years then you clearly haven't learned a whole lot with him within those years. I don't think you seriously tried to get better tbh. It seems as if you expected to win tournys with your current skill level and used MK as an excuse when that didn't happen.

I've lost track of how many times I've seen people in videos pull out a pocket MK in tourny matches in game 2 after being beaten hard game 1. Guess what? It almost never goes well for them unless it's stage related and they tend to end up losing WORSE while playing MK.

 

[JTsm]

Jdietz43: No Johns and what zmx said.

 

[Sorto]

@jdietz

Look at melee. Mid level players usually have a pocket sheik. And top levels usually have a pocket spacie. All the mk ban did for brawl was let these players know to pick up another pocket character. Chances are this pocket character will have a good matchup against Luigi, cause he is midtier. And now they might say, "yea im going marth, you understand" instead. Go to a few tournies, the outcome will be the same. You lose to some pocket high/top tiers. But im glad the TOs and other players get your money at least. Ya know? Dont think that the ban really affected you. At least be logical and save your money. I mean come on, you were losing early loser rounds just bc they played mk and it is doubtful your making it to the prize after being inactive for so long.

 

[TattleStory]

Meta Knight is an extremely easy to use character, but his final Smash has to be more precise than Captain Falcon's...

...Overall, Meta Knight is equally matched with the Nintendo 64 Samus, who had powerfull 'A' attacks, and useful B attacks, but MK has an issue with Tornado Spin in particular, it's an extremely easy recovery move, I say it would be better to ban B attacks or A attacks than a character, there is a way to disable them in the control setup, in Meta Knight's case, banning his B attacks would eliminate any unfair advantage, including Jumping and recovery, but the Smash Ball should also be disabled to make things equal for Meta Knight, if Meta Knight starts losing, it means nobody will get a Final Smash after that, and Meta Knight cannot use his.

Seems good, as many Final Smash are usually unfair if someone just gets lucky, only strategic items should ever be allowed in tournaments, Metal Box, Star Rod, Food, (possibly Tomato, but not Heart containers) Starman, Golden Hammer, and Dragoon are too unfair with lucky item grabbers, not to mention the Squeaky hammer gamble...

My sisters always KO'd me with Samus & Captain Falcon in the N64 game, it was before we ever knew Samus was a lady, I had to read her Melee Trophy to know that!
I remember the N64 site for Smash, exactly like the players guide except it details unlockables and showed all character's frames...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Jebus: yes of course, I will buffer a grab while Im in the air. Stop acting ******** and think about the entirety of the situation.

You're not in the air.

 

[John12346]

B.A.M., when you get the chance, would you give me the exact inputs for this anti-planking option select of yours?

Not only would I like to test it out, but I also need to know about it for a project I'm gonna be pulling out soon.

 

[zmx]

Meta Knight is an extremely easy to use character, but his final Smash has to be more precise than Captain Falcon's...

...Overall, Meta Knight is equally matched with the Nintendo 64 Samus, who had powerfull 'A' attacks, and useful B attacks, but MK has an issue with Tornado Spin in particular, it's an extremely easy recovery move, I say it would be better to ban B attacks or A attacks than a character, there is a way to disable them in the control setup, in Meta Knight's case, banning his B attacks would eliminate any unfair advantage, including Jumping and recovery, but the Smash Ball should also be disabled to make things equal for Meta Knight, if Meta Knight starts losing, it means nobody will get a Final Smash after that, and Meta Knight cannot use his.

Seems good, as many Final Smash are usually unfair if someone just gets lucky, only strategic items should ever be allowed in tournaments, Metal Box, Star Rod, Food, (possibly Tomato, but not Heart containers) Starman, Golden Hammer, and Dragoon are too unfair with lucky item grabbers, not to mention the Squeaky hammer gamble...

My sisters always KO'd me with Samus & Captain Falcon in the N64 game, it was before we ever knew Samus was a lady, I had to read her Melee Trophy to know that!
I remember the N64 site for Smash, exactly like the players guide except it details unlockables and showed all character's frames...

I'm going to say this as kindly as possible.

You really don't know much about competitive smash and should probably refrain from posting until you do. In competitive smash for instance, there are no items on. That includes the smash ball. It's a non-issue.

 

[Elessar]

At the moment MK is viewed as a "problem" because of his dominance and inherent busted abilities. Honestly, the only reason I'm not apart of that "problem" is due to the fact that I was stupid 3.5 years ago and didn't think about picking the best character because I wanted to do well with my character choice. But I'm smarter now and I know better.

IMHO, this is the biggest reason why the ban must continue. MK is seen as a shortcut to winning, so many people drop their characters of choice in favor of MK or and thus the metagame of lower tier characters suffers since there are less people playing it who, not only might get good with the character, but willing to try things, or who might discover new strats.

 

[Omni]

So we ban Metaknight...
Because people are being too lazy...?

 

[Elessar]

Not only because of that, but that is a factor, even if a small one. Though, I don't know how can it be just a small one when it's something that affects the entire game and metagame. The idea here is to help continue evolving right?

 

[SpongeJordan]

If anything, it should convert people back away from their pocket MKs IMO. I've since dropped mine in favor of practicing more Lucas again, though that's honestly more due to the "ban".

It should inspire people to get better rather than just pick higher. I think the ban is no longer necessary after all of US's MKs getting rocked by such a tight Olimar. He'll always be massively popular, but thats not justification for banning if we do end up finding strong counters to some of our best MKs.

 

[Omni]

Not only because of that, but that is a factor, even if a small one. Though, I don't know how can it be just a small one when it's something that affects the entire game and metagame. The idea here is to help continue evolving right?

Is it? You tell me.

Japanese metagame appears to be evolving just well with MK in the game.

If anything, it should convert people back away from their pocket MKs IMO. I've since dropped mine in favor of practicing more Lucas again, though that's honestly more due to the "ban".

It should inspire people to get better rather than just pick higher. I think the ban is no longer necessary after all of US's MKs getting rocked by such a tight Olimar. He'll always be massively popular, but thats not justification for banning if we do end up finding strong counters to some of our best MKs.

Pocket MK's don't win tournaments.

If people dropped their previous character and are still using their PocketKnight, this isn't MK's fault. Anyone in a real competitive region cannot fly just by PocketKnight'ing. It doesn't work 3 years into the metagame.

We also don't ban a character to inspire people to use other characters. That's not a legit reason at all.

 

[Elessar]

I've since dropped mine in favor of practicing more Lucas again, though that's honestly more due to the "ban".

And that's the goal of the ban the way I see it. Plus, it's not a perma ban, or at least, it shouldn't be. It's just an attempt at jumpstarting the metagame development of the mid to lower tier chars.

Also, the inspire to get better is a bit relative when you get so completely wrecked by another character and everyone tells you that it doesn't matter how good you get, you just won't win (again, speaking for mid to lower tiers).

Edit: About Japan game evolving despite MK, I'd argue that it's mainly due to a huge cultural difference between both countries which is a factor that cannot be excluded. You both don0t play the game the same (rules) and don't view it the same either. Same game, yes, but different mentality and commitment, and those are two factors that do play a major role imho.

 

[Hylian]

Ocean also beat Tearbear in tournament for those saying our other top mks would beat him. He knocked him out of round 2 pools actually as well as beating Wills DK.


People just have a bad mentality here. We don't even need to ban most of the stages, it's just that a lot of players here RELY on them. You can only get so good at running away from people, there is much more to be learned with aggressive play. Our scene has been gimping itself with the mentality that playing gay is the most effective way to play, when it clearly isn't.

People also complain about others switching to MK or pocket mks, but when has that ever done anything for anyone? Who in america suddenly switched to mk and started placing noticeably better(assuming they didn't switch from like..ganon)? People try to use mk as a crutch when they lose and it FAILS all the time. MK is an extremely hard character to be good with, everyone knows the match-up. For example Vinnie, a player predicted to get top 3 at Apex got LAST PLACE in bracket BECAUSE HE SWITCHED TO MK against orion. Cheese beat Orion 2-0 with IC's, vinnie is MUCH MUCH better with IC's than cheese(no offense to any players), he lost because he got frustrated game 1 and then switched to mk and lost despite having a perfectly good chance of winning with IC's.

People blame mk for their losses here instead of themselves. People want the easy way out rather than putting in hard work, it's really as simple as that.

stage list needs to be changed in US regardless LMAO

This is very untrue.

I played rain at apex 2010 in a MM and homie got 3 stocked game 2.
it was like almost the reverse this apex, i barely took a stock.

if you put in the work like he did it definitely pays off

I played rain at Genesis 2 and beat him 2-0 in a set. I played him at apex and he 2-0'ed me lol, it was kind of crazy.

 

[Omni]

Hylian, where have you been all my life?

 

[Elessar]

People blame mk for their losses here instead of themselves. People want the easy way out rather than putting in hard work, it's really as simple as that.

And this is the problem with why some people ditch their lower tier mains for higher ones. No one is arguing, at least I didn't, that pocket MKs win Tourneys, or that he's easy to use, or that those qho quit their original mains for him start placing a lot better. Just that, people are doing it, ditching their mains for MK and thus hurt the original character's possible growth. The way I see it, out of a misplaced notion that MK=wins they drop their original character, and with it the chance to be great with it, in order to be a mediocre MK.

 

[Omni]

That's a non-competitive, "scrub" mentality Elessar.

In the real world where people actually go to tournaments and have been here for 3 years understand that MK =/= win.

If people are dropping their original character it is not Metaknight's fault. I have known countless people who have quit their character, picked up Metaknight, and have failed miserably. That notion does not exist; not 3 years into the game. Maybe 2 years ago? But now? No. Your MK is either amazing or it's getting pooped on by players who have been playing against him for 3 years now and know how to dominate him.

Picking Metaknight does not make you a better player.

 

[Hylian]

Unless I'm reading it wrong, Elessar agreed with you Omni and you mis-interpreted his post lol.

Edit: Well I don't know anymore lol there isn't great context with his post.

It looks like he is agreeing with what I said, but blaming mk, whereas you and I are blaming the players not mk, is that right?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ITT: people dismiss everything pro-ban says using terrible circular logic and lots of superfluous namecalling

mk's banned, get over it, move on with your lives or make your own rule set.

this is so ****ing old. quit *****ing.

 

[Elessar]

Yeah Hylian, I am agreeing with what you said, AND with what Omni said, but I blame both, MK and the people. People should understand that getting better comes through hard work and commitment, not changing mains, but sadly, most don't. So I think that they should have that option taken away for a while, again, just to jump start other metagames.

 

[Mekos]

Ocean also beat Tearbear in tournament for those saying our other top mks would beat him. He knocked him out of round 2 pools actually as well as beating Wills DK.


People just have a bad mentality here. We don't even need to ban most of the stages, it's just that a lot of players here RELY on them. You can only get so good at running away from people, there is much more to be learned with aggressive play. Our scene has been gimping itself with the mentality that playing gay is the most effective way to play, when it clearly isn't.

People also complain about others switching to MK or pocket mks, but when has that ever done anything for anyone? Who in america suddenly switched to mk and started placing noticeably better(assuming they didn't switch from like..ganon)? People try to use mk as a crutch when they lose and it FAILS all the time. MK is an extremely hard character to be good with, everyone knows the match-up. For example Vinnie, a player predicted to get top 3 at Apex got LAST PLACE in bracket BECAUSE HE SWITCHED TO MK against orion. Cheese beat Orion 2-0 with IC's, vinnie is MUCH MUCH better with IC's than cheese(no offense to any players), he lost because he got frustrated game 1 and then switched to mk and lost despite having a perfectly good chance of winning with IC's.

People blame mk for their losses here instead of themselves. People want the easy way out rather than putting in hard work, it's really as simple as that.



I played rain at Genesis 2 and beat him 2-0 in a set. I played him at apex and he 2-0'ed me lol, it was kind of crazy.

I love this guy and agree with everything. U have to take responsibility for your own actions. I get infinited using lucas and still take responsibility for it.

At our top level play, m2k isn't winning soley cuz he is mk. He is outplaying the other player. If u watch youtube vids u will see plenty of mistakes his opponent makes, not just some unstoppable broken force destroying an opponent.

@Supermodel - U don't get it. The URC is like the illuminati of smash. They have the power. Threads like this are meant to hopefully persuade them to change their ways of thinking about the topic. But u have a point cuz alot of them are extremely stubborn and all this is probably hopeless. They simply act like it's their way or the highway. Read some of Xyro's posts for example.

 

[DeLux]

Just to clarify on ISSDI shenanigans, the cstick will move you about .72 the distance of the Analog stick if the analog stick is held in an opposing direction to the cstick tap.

In the case of anti planking, if you held towards the ledge, and tapped back on the cstick, this net gain (.28) is enough to move someone over the ledge in the event there is shield hit lag. In the event of no shield hit lag, the inputs would then cause a backward roll

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://oi40.tinypic.com/30c51na.jpg

 

[JTsm]

ITT: Why do people say one side uses circular logic without even pointing out what that circular logic is?

 

[Elessar]

Circular Logic is, iirc, a logical statement that relies on itself for support, not in other reasoning or facts.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

We're lazy because we want MK banned because we're lazy, amirite?

 

[Elessar]

Yeah, that would be the basic idea.