Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[ShadowLink84]

You pretty much implied it was the opposite earlier.

Uh.
No?
You made such a presumption.

Kind of hard when you just use the term "snip", so I don't know what exact words you're replying to. So be specific. The "snip" looks like you're ignoring it completely.

Snip means I am trying to save space. If you're feeling like you're being ignored, click the little arrow by the quote.

Nah, it means they're OP by default if they deserve their own tier.

No.
It simply states they are ebtter than the next character below them by a significant amount.
This significant amount does not have to be large. It simply has to be significant.
Which means it is relative.
Which means it must within the context of the game.
Which means you need to have intimate knowledge of the game to understand why that gap exists.
Which means dropping presumptions of a character's capability simply based upon their tier positioning.

Banworthy? No. OP, yes. If they're not OP, why would they need their own tier? They wouldn't be good enough for it. Which, well, we both know MK is.

They would get their own tier for simply being significantly better than the character below them.
I cannot understand as to how the concept is so very difficult to grasp.
It appears you have already made up your mind on what a tier signifies.

Unfortunately, our attempts to curb those abilities have failed. Although taking away his B Moves could do it... except that's a bad idea anyway.

Also, what Flayl said in general. WHY is he in his own Tier? If he's a "fine" character, he'd be with the rest of the "fine" characters. Something is definitely wrong, and I ain't talking about him being banned.

http://kayin.pyoko.org/GuiltyGear/actiers.html

The only S tier character is Eddie.
Ban Eddie from GGX:AC

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Uh.
No?
You made such a presumption.

Not how I saw it. But eh.

Snip means I am trying to save space. If you're feeling like you're being ignored, click the little arrow by the quote.

You don't need to save space whatsoever. We're not on some server where it's outright required. Be specific at all times.

No.
It simply states they are ebtter than the next character below them by a significant amount.
This significant amount does not have to be large. It simply has to be significant.
Which means it is relative.
Which means it must within the context of the game.
Which means you need to have intimate knowledge of the game to understand why that gap exists.
Which means dropping presumptions of a character's capability simply based upon their tier positioning.

And it's clearly significant enough to ever have a higher tier. Tiers mean a lot, and they're there for a reason. This just sounds like the whole "Tiers don't matter", well, they do, by quite a lot. It does not matter you should select someone because of their tier, but it does tell you the best chances.

They would get their own tier for simply being significantly better than the character below them.
I cannot understand as to how the concept is so very difficult to grasp.
It appears you have already made up your mind on what a tier signifies.

And that's one of the many reasons why he's banned. There has to be REASONS why he's significant enough. Of which, when asked, nobody has provided. When I can find a better list at TVTropes, something's wrong.

http://kayin.pyoko.org/GuiltyGear/actiers.html

The only S tier character is Eddie.
Ban Eddie from GGX:AC

Another bad comparison. We aren't banning characters because of their Tiers. At all. All the Tier really signifies is that something is indeed wrong. Not that he's banworthy. Those are completely different reasons, and the Tier is one possible reason for some. I've already specified this; We're not banning a Tier, only a character. Read that carefully.

 

[Strong Badam]

That doesn't matter when it comes to any open polling, which it technically wasn't the bar was just low, 75 posts with a SWF account.

Even then, it's still arbitrary and hard to remove bias if you close it up to "trusted" people. Which isn't well accepted or defined by anyone.

I agree, which is why polling is a bad idea for this sort of thing.

You don't need to save space whatsoever. We're not on some server where it's outright required. Be specific at all times.

Please refer to my signature.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not how I saw it. But eh.

Thanks for agreeing?

snip

Or click the arrow.

And it's clearly significant enough to ever have a higher tier. .

Again, restating what I just said.
You practically fled your earlier argument that MK being in his own tier dictating him as Op.
Clearly it does not.

And that's one of the many reasons why he's banned.

No it isn't.
MetaKnight being banned has nothing to do with him being in his own tier.
Such a statement is a logical fallacy otherwise, any character can be banned for being the cream of the crop and being alone.
Eddie being a prime example in GGXX:AC

There has to be REASONS why he's significant enough. Of which, when asked, nobody has provided. When I can find a better list at TVTropes, something's wrong.

TVTropes? Word? You just destroyed your credibility brah.

Another bad comparison. We aren't banning characters because of their Tiers.

You just stated in this very same post that it is part of why MK is banned.
Your entire argument with me has been "well him being in another tier by himself is part of why he is being banned."

All the Tier really signifies is that something is indeed wrong.

*points at th elink he provided*
All you did was say "its a bad comparison."
Really? How so?
My entire argument is to refute YOUR argument that being in a seperate tier is at all an indication of that character's legality/capability.
Now you're trying to double back and say "oh no it doesn't he is banworthy."

 

[Komatik]

You probably need to stop trying to make sense Shadowlink. Sense doesn't work with him, it's been tried many, many times over. Definitions of god tier hinging on actual broken power level, demonstrations of raw power level being perfectly in line with others providing the matchup charts are in the least accurate, demonstration of how the polls are invalid, admission by guy making the tier list that the separate tier isn't really necessary as such, and the list goes on.

He's gotten into his head that MK is way, way above the rest and needs to go. Proof and logic are not going to change that.

 

[Thino]

Yea but the problem is that, while Hyperfalcon, just like everyone, is free to have his own opinion about it, when he chooses to argue about them, he should state them as opinions, as in justifying them.

He has to understand that statements like "Something is indeed wrong." or "There HAS to be reasons why he's significant" don't mean anything on their own, even if to him they do make sense.

It's not a matter of anti-ban and pro-ban, the way he presents his arguments make the discussion stall.

He literally forces you to ask "Why is there something wrong with a character being alone in his tier at the top?" or "What's wrong with a character being significant in the first place" instead of doing it by himself.

The use of the word "wrong" doesn't make things any easier as there are high risks of moral implications and bias.

It makes arguing with him take more posts than it normally should, hence the snips.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

TVTropes? Word? You just destroyed your credibility brah.

Uh... SL...

WHAT CREDIBILITY?!

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Hyperfalcon is incapable of processing logic or reason, much in the same way a lactose-intolerant person cannot process dairy. By arguing with him, you are forcing milk and cheese down his throat, and the end result is unpleasant for everyone.

...
.....
.......

cuz of the farts

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Thanks for agreeing?

Uh-huh.

Or click the arrow.

I'll give a full reply when I know exactly what content YOU replied to.

Again, restating what I just said.
You practically fled your earlier argument that MK being in his own tier dictating him as Op.
Clearly it does not.

Him being OP is what got him into his own tier. Basically.

No it isn't.
MetaKnight being banned has nothing to do with him being in his own tier.
Such a statement is a logical fallacy otherwise, any character can be banned for being the cream of the crop and being alone.
Eddie being a prime example in GGXX:AC

It was a greenlight to show there was a problem. It's just proof that those people saying he isn't really that good is wrong, if only that. And many of those have, which proves that statement wrong. You also are forgetting the context. It's not the fact he's the best character completely. That's not a problem at all. In fact, that's fine. It's the rest of everything that's a problem.

TVTropes? Word? You just destroyed your credibility brah.

Congratulations on ignoring the context again. I found people actually stating why he was OP. I don't see it on here. Atleast I have a place to find information, since nobody is saying why he got his own tier. Marc was literally the only person to do so so far. Funny thing that.

You just stated in this very same post that it is part of why MK is banned.
Your entire argument with me has been "well him being in another tier by himself is part of why he is being banned."

Perhaps I did. However, I do concede that it's not a direct reason. Being in his own Tier did call attention to him, so it helped the situation towards the banning, nothing more. It sure doesn't help him anyway.

*points at the link he provided*
All you did was say "its a bad comparison."
Really? How so?
My entire argument is to refute YOUR argument that being in a seperate tier is at all an indication of that character's legality/capability.
Now you're trying to double back and say "oh no it doesn't he is banworthy."

Except my argument stopped being "He's in his own tier, he's banworthy" since last page.

However, it is an indication of their capability completely. That's the point of Tiers, showing their best possible capability at the highest levels of play. It also includes who has the best chance to win under equal conditions.

I'm going to be blunt; Any game that doesn't play similar to Smash is a bad comparison to Smash since the battle styles are different, as are the rules, and controls. What's OP in one game won't be OP in Smash, etc. General statements aren't worth using.

 

[Thino]

I'm going to be blunt; Any game that doesn't play similar to Smash is a bad comparison to Smash since the battle styles are different, as are the rules, and controls. What's OP in one game won't be OP in Smash, etc. General statements aren't worth using.

I guess you're not allowed to mention ST Akuma or Algol anymore then.

Edit:

I still don't understand why you consider him being in his own tier a problem, or him having more importance whatsoever.

I mean that proves that he's better than other characters, sure, but what is the line between that and being OP? and why should it be even a INDIRECT reason for his ban?

 

[Komatik]

Mentioning Algol is lulzy anyway, he was pretty much banned because.
(he's strong, but not even top tier. Just strong and unusual. He'll win every time if you can't deal with bubble spam, if you can he's ok)

Also, you are still arguing with HyperFalcon.

 

[ShadowLink84]

snip

Done.
Going to go play RIFT and Devil May Cry 4 since the Wii is back at the house and not in the apartment.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Let's just put everyone in their own tier; Metaknight can be A++, Diddy can be A+, Olimar can be A, Snake can be A-, and Ganondorf can finally be S tier. Or M tier, you know whatever.

That way HyperFalcon won't be able to argue about semantics like this.

 

[Toesrus]

ive been reading this thread for a while and ive noticed that some people think that a tier for one character implies a significant gap between the characters below it. i kinda just want to explain why i personally dont think this is true. you guys dont have to read this if you dont want to but i feel like posting my opinion


imagine that MK, diddy, and snake were not in the game, and falco was at the top. theoretically the current tier list would look like this.

S: Falco
A: Marth, Wario, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Pikachu
etc.

i see that falco is in a tier all by himself. is falco now overpowered? no, because he is not too strong to be considered overpowered, yet he is stronger than marth to a point where he should be considered higher tier than him. in my opinion the same idea applies to the MK and diddy kong gap in the tier list.

is falco a tier above marth in the tier list? yes
is falco overpowered? no

is MK a tier above diddy kong? yes
is MK overpowered? no

just my 2 cents

 

[John12346]

Falco isn't necessarily a tier above the rest of the cast with MK, Snake, and Diddy not in the game...

But regardless, that's some not so great logic. I don't remember the exact name of the fallacy you made, but:

If "A is X, so A is Y" is a true statement, it doesn't mean that "Since B is X, B must be Y."

 

[Psychoace]

Falco isn't necessarily a tier above the rest of the cast with MK, Snake, and Diddy not in the game...

But regardless, that's some not so great logic. I don't remember the exact name of the fallacy you made, but:

If "A is X, so A is Y" is a true statement, it doesn't mean that "Since B is X, B must be Y."

An Informal Fallacy.

 

[Toesrus]

Falco isn't necessarily a tier above the rest of the cast with MK, Snake, and Diddy not in the game...

But regardless, that's some not so great logic. I don't remember the exact name of the fallacy you made, but:

If "A is X, so A is Y" is a true statement, it doesn't mean that "Since B is X, B must be Y."

the point of my post was to explain in my own way why i believe an S tier with a single character in it is not necessarily a sign of a character being too good. i wasn't trying to claim anything to be fact. im sorry if it looked like that

 

[BSP]

Most of us agree that him being in a tier alone doesn't = automatically too good

 

[Jeffbelittle]

Most of us agree that him being in a tier alone doesn't = automatically too good

Not automatically, no. Though it does technically mean he's "the best character" if you will.

But look, it's not so much just the tier list. We don't ban the top 15 and bottom 5 and make you play only the ones remaining since they're close in competitive ability. We ban problems. We ban something that has an incredibly negative influence on either the community, the game, or the development. Meta knight falls into all of these categories.

Someone made a good point about fun being a factor of this game more than like any other fighting game. Our goal isn't balance trumps everything. If it was, we wouldn't be playing SSBB at all. If our goal was to make this chess, we'd make Meta Knight the only character in the game, Final Destination the only Map in the game, and set it to 5 lives. We don't want it to be like that at all.


The long term effects of this ban is most likely positive. Extremely talented Meta Knight's are now forced to pick up characters that not only contribute to balance but also to fun. Maybe one will pick up.. Mario or something? Show us how to play mario really well. Bring HIS tier up a notch or too. Solo tier'd "s tier" characters force under-developed meta games for other wonderfully unique characters.



In terms of actual balance, not talking about fun at all: I look at Meta Knight's match ups and just kind've cringe.

If your goal is to make characters have a lot of 50-50's. a few 45-55's, a few 55-45's, and at worst 60-40/ 40-60, we didn't get that with Meta Knight.

His WORST match up is 55-45. That's fine. But if it's going to be like that, it should be consistent.

His BEST match up is 65-35.


A character who has 0 negative or even EVEN match ups but has drastic advantages over characters that are even featured in the top 10 is just too much.

If diddy kong was as good as meta knight, maybe that'd help a little. But still. This is nutso.





Bottom line: I'm rooting for a development of underplayed veterans with this ban so that we can see a Mario and a Link in competitive gaming. (just examples of under appreciated characters)

 

[Cassio]

Oi, I cant believe someone actually bumped this. No one cares anymore, the tournaments that want him banned banned him and the tournaments that didnt have him legal. Everythings good, and these arguments are drawn out and repetitive now.