Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But... he IS leagues above the rest of the cast...

Quoted for Truth. Others are just being delusional. All the data disagrees. All the winnings, cash, frame data, match-up, tier list... hell, the supposed even is only correct if you mean the nerfed Meta Knight.

@Komatik: There's nothing for me to answer anymore. It's a name, and doesn't follow any God Tier definition anyway.

Regardless, he too good overall with the combination of data to be anywhere but above the cast enough to be in his own tier.

 

[WindMajor]

Opinions shmopinions I say.

Restricted he may not, but unrestricted he is.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Opinions shmopinions I say.

Restricted he may not, but unrestricted he is.

I'm still under the belief that characters go even with him due to the LGL. I could be wrong, of course, but they're going even under a nerfed version of him. That makes all those evens questionable due to faulty data in that particular case.

That, and he's still ridiculously strong enough even with the LGL to win consistently.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Quoted for Truth. Others are just being delusional. All the data disagrees. All the winnings, cash, frame data, match-up, tier list... hell, the supposed even is only correct if you mean the nerfed Meta Knight.

Except that this is entirely bull****. MK is the best in the game, and that is a contributing factor, but you know what? Name me any number of truly top-level main for each other top tier character, and I will name you a top-level player who mains MK. Hell, I even think I might be able to do it all the way down to like, Toon Link. That's how much he is favored by the top pros. That's the degree to which he's liked among the best players in the USA. With that kind of representation, it's no wonder he's winning a lot. If M2K, Dojo, Ally, Tyrant, Anti, and Nairo all mained Snake or Olimar, don't you think we'd all be sitting here with pretty damn similar figures?

To point to these top players winning a lot and say "look at MK oh my god he's so ****ing broken" is like looking at UMvC3 Wesker's results and thinking, "OH GOD BROKEN" – no, "the character is broken" is not the explanation. There are a lot of factors playing into it, and blaming it solely on the character being "broken" is stupid. MK is easy to pick up at lower and mid-levels, the best in the game, and generally a very solid pick in every matchup. Does that mean broken? **** no. A character with those qualities could be broken, but it doesn't necessitate it. And in this case, it's clearly not the case – MK is great, but not even remotely broken. Want proof? Well, we have what are clearly top MKs losing, in no particular order, to:
-ICs (Kakera vs. ESAM)
-Olimar (Nairo and Ally vs. Nietono)
-ROB (M2K vs. Ocean)
...and more.

And then, of course, there's the cherry on top: Japan, which is clearly the most advanced region in the world in terms of metagame, and especially in terms of MK (anyone who gets the impression that the USA's MKs are better after watching Otori and Kakera play is nuts), doesn't consider MK a banworthy threat. They consider him a top tier character, reasonably in line with the others. The idea of banning MK is laughable in Japan, despite them having what amounts to two of the best MKs in the world and many more very notable MK players.

Is MK banworthy in the USA, or at least the east coast? Very likely. The mindset that many US players have is, quite frankly, poisonous, and leads to an absurd overcentralization around Metaknight – this idea of "why go through the extra work for a character who's worse anyways". Does this mean MK is broken? No! It means that a large portion of the USA (and, from what I've gathered, people like Kunai KazeKun [oh god I hope he namesearches] in Europe) are gigantic *****es, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

[fabulouspants]

americans exposed as frauds by japan. called it in 08 and americans are still on their high horse acting as if their metagame is the pinnacle of smash bros brawl lol.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

americans exposed as frauds by japan.

By beating us with Meta Knight. Or does that factor not count?

called it in 08 and americans are still on their high horse acting as if their metagame is the pinnacle of smash bros brawl lol.

Japan winning 1/3 of the Apex's doesn't make them unaminously better. They'd have to win a lot more to get that far. Beating us once? Pfft. You severely overrated what happened.

 

[Strong Badam]

okay this guy must be trolling with that last line. they stomped us at our tournament with our ruleset.

 

[Thino]

I don't even remember what made us argue about semantics.

Some people refer to him as "God Tier". Okay.
MK is undeniably the best character in the game above all other characters, that's also true, all the data is there to prove it.

Do all those results and all that data justify qualifying him as broken, making extra rules for him or banning him? No.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hylian please namesearch. Paging Hylian to the thread.

By beating us with Meta Knight. Or does that factor not count?

Their best MK beat everyone. It was also the first time he had ever placed first at a tournament.

Their best Olimar stomped the **** out of basically everyone else.

Their self-reported "best player", 9B, didn't show.

Remember, part of the argument is that Japan obviously doesn't have an MK problem, despite their MKs being clearly better than ours, therefore the problem is not MK, but us, and our relationship to the character.

Japan winning 1/3 of the Apex's doesn't make them unaminously better. They'd have to win a lot more to get that far. Beating us once? Pfft. You severely overrated what happened.

You're an idiot. I'll just let Hylian, who was actually paying attention (because he was actually there) explain.

People are saying the US got annihilated because of how the japanese preformed against ALL of our top players, not just a select few in bracket. A lot of money matches went down, I sat behind ocean and watched him beat Rich Brown in a $10 money match. Most of our top players money matched the japanese for $10 or more and lost badly. I also watched Rain and Otori both consistently beat m2k in mk dittos. I watched Ocean beat top mks here with rob, including tearbear and m2k in tournament. It wasn't a fluke. I watched nietono beat pretty much every single one of our top players in friendlies and money matches.

I don't recall seeing you there, but the skill difference was obvious based on a lot more than just the bracket. They weren't just beating our best players in every aspect they were beating them BADLY. When was the last time you saw ally get 3-0'ed? By anyone? Nairo doing well against Otori is the only example of any of our top players doing even remotely well against the Japanese.

It isn't just results. We aren't (although we would be pretty justified in doing so) simply pointing to 5/8 of the Japanese making it out of pools, 5/8 of them making top 16 at the largest, most-stacked Brawl tournament ever, 3/8 making top 8, and two taking first and second and saying "Welp, Japan is waaaay better than us". We're actually looking at their overall performance, between tournament play, money matches, friendlies... And the general verdict: Japan kicked USA's ***** almost as hard as everyone else kicked Europe's.

 

[Strong Badam]

i was also there and enjoyed brawl GFs more than melee's

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

i was also there and enjoyed brawl GFs more than melee's

There is a bittersweet irony to this. There should be a rule that Armada vs. HBox grand finals are best of 3 or best of 1, not best of 5. 40-minute sets are nasty. In Melee, they're just mean.

 

[Komatik]

@Komatik: There's nothing for me to answer anymore. It's a name, and doesn't follow any God Tier definition anyway.

If you actually read the post you would've noticed it did not do anything but refute the quote below without a single mention to tiers or anything:

no other character actually has a reasonable chance against MK

To stick to that claim of yours is to say
1. that the SWF matchup chart is completely wrong
or
2. that the word "slight" doesn't mean what it means to everyone
or
3. that a slight advantage in a matchup is unreasonable, which would render most matchups in Brawl unreasonable, yet people evidently do not complain about -1's one little bit.

In other words, that claim is complete horse**** and you would do well to drop it. Abundance of MKs in the metagame, supremely good toolset, lots of money won, there's nothing to argue on those points, they are all evidently true. But drop the blatantly wrong claims.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Slight means nothing. The +0's are not realistic and beyond questionable due to MK being nerfed.

There is no one who actually stands a reasonable chance against him. He is actually advantageous against all the cast. Those evens are based upon his NERFED version. Even then, nobody has an advantage against him as well.

Also, it never said "slight". It said "small". Small is still good enough to show he's better.

You also are missing one key part of the context; It's not just the match-up alone. It's the fact that everybody else in the game have tons of disadvantageous match-ups. Everybody. That means he's already miles above the cast. A -1 is still bad as is. Any minus is. Slight differences are a very crappy reason to not put him in his own tier.

Reasonable would assume somebody actually wins against him just as often.

What IS correct is that some of the cast has a reasonable chance against his Nerfed self. His true self, nobody comes close and nobody ever will as long as he exists.

 

[Conviction]

Mk is not leaps and bounds above the cast...it's not a learn the match-up thing it's a learn the actual basics of gameplay thing.

Most likely this get responded with by a generic answer but eh, after being neutral for 3-4 years on the hold thing now I'm anti-ban.

 

[Judo777]

Mk is not leaps and bounds above the cast...it's not a learn the match-up thing it's a learn the actual basics of gameplay thing.

Most likely this get responded with by a generic answer but eh, after being neutral for 3-4 years on the hold thing now I'm anti-ban.

yes because we don't know the basics of the game......

I have a question btw, from what EVERYONE in the world told us about Japan, is Nietono considered the best? or is 9B? Regardless even before the tournament everyone said Nietono was going to win because he was the best. Nietono was obviously amazing but he didn't beat Otori. You all say that Japan demonstrated that they were WAY better than us which might very well be true.

However the only thing that really points to is this (IMO). Japan beat all of our top MK's not because they know the MU, they beat our top MK's because they are WAY better than us (as has been said). Nietono was probably a cut above most of our top players, he was probably even a little above Otori, but he still lost. So the only thing that sticks out immediately is that the way to beat Metaknight is to do what Japan did, which is just be way better. Nietono unfortunately was not WAY better than Otori (he was probably only slightly better at least from what I heard, considering I hadn't heard of Otori until I watched grandfinals, and I had heard of nietono probably 6 months prior) and as a result lost.

So the way to beat MK's and be like Japan (at least with our ruleset) is to be way better than the MK's which btw is a very big problem. You can never be way better than everyone, nietono couldn't even at Apex and he lost because of it. The other choice is to switch up our stagelist to Japan's that favors the next few characters that do well against MK and then let them play on 2 cps per game.

sounds reasonable to me......

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People need to stop referring to Japan when they don't know stuff about their Brawl scene.

 

[lordvaati]

anyone else notice that every time a great change happens in Brawl, it'salways in a match with a winner being someone using R.O.B?

first, there was the infamous Ken vs. CPU match, which ended with Ken retiring.

then, there was APEX, which ends with MK banned and M2K considering retirement because of the ban.

what is it with that robot?

 

[DMG]

People need to stop referring to Japan 90% of the time they get brought up lol. So many points, counter points, theorycrafting and nonsense flies around due to everyone bringing them up.

 

[Conviction]

?But I'm more than sure 85% of this site does not know basic concepts also lol at your reference to Japan do you even know who dominates in Japan? Someone should inform you that's Otori's first tourney he has won

 

[popsofctown]

Let's all agree to call MK "SS tier".

Forcing the opposing side of an argument to use terminology that is in and of itself a concession of your own point is not an effective method. I doubt you would have much luck convincing a pro-choice person to change their stance if you insisted that they referred to their position as "anti-life" during the discussion process.

"God tier" implies a sort of transcendence that anti-ban denies and wants to discuss. Insisting on its validity is circular logic. Play ball fair.

 

[Cassio]

Good luck trying to convince hyperfalcon of that. His arguments revolve around plugging his ears and repeating his points as if contending with them were the same as saying the sky is not blue.

On that note I swore I wasnt going to respond to HyperFalcons Doc King tier posts, but theres one point I'll make.

If pikachu is not even with MK, it is not because of the lgl. Hardly anything would change about the MU if the LGL were removed and if anything would arguably help pikachu more than MK, and adding stages would actually help pikachu since his worst stages are already on the stagelist and some of his better stages are not.

 

[Judo777]

?But I'm more than sure 85% of this site does not know basic concepts also lol at your reference to Japan do you even know who dominates in Japan? Someone should inform you that's Otori's first tourney he has won

Wait that's Otori's first tournament win??? I hope not, cause that makes my point even stronger.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So, Judo, in your version MK is overpowered, but Nietono happened to be an upbar player that beat the **** out of everyone else in the tournament because he's awesome, and Otori randomly beated him because of MK?

 

[Conviction]

Wait that's Otori's first tournament win??? I hope not, cause that makes my point even stronger.

and the fact that he hasn't done well since APEX...? Hmmmm, okay

 

[Judo777]

and the fact that he hasn't done well since APEX...? Hmmmm, okay

Kinda actually, it makes reasonable since to say the least. From what I have been told we didn't use their stage list at Apex (aka Diddy, IC's and Olimar didn't get CPs every game) tho we DID drop a few of our stages that they don't have legal and probably don't have alot of experience on (Like Brinstar and RC).

And no what I'm saying is Nietono who is AMAZING beat the hell out of all of our players because he was WAY better than our players (at least according to others) but he didn't beat Otori because he wasn't WAY better than Otori (people tell me he IS in fact better than Otori) so that just points to the fact that in order to beat MK you need to be WAY better (cumulatively or at the MU or both) and if you are only slightly better or flat out better you can't expect to consistently beat a good MK.

How do people not see an issue with an MK in the same region as the guy who was predicted by EVERYONE to win, because he was way better than everyone else, come to a slightly more liberal stage list/ruleset and beat the guy who is way better than everyone else, and at the same time this be his only tournament win ever. And then upon returning back to Japan (as Iblis has indicated to me) has been doing poorly since.

What was the difference? 1 was money on the line so maybe Otori just sand bags in Japan (doubt it). 2 was our stage list/ruleset (probably the more likely case). Whether you care to admit it or not Japan's stage list and ruleset DOES nerf MK, simply by buffing all of MK's worst MU's (all of which happen to be in his favor but still). The fact that game 1 is always played on BF, SV and FD (at least that's what I have heard and i hear they only have a handful of stages) is a huge buff to IC's, Diddy, Falco (hell even Fox and Pika conscerned with that MU).

Don't they also play with a larger clock? Do they still have the scrooging and air time rules? All of these are discrete nerfs to MK and as a result they don't (or might not) have an MK problem.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wait that's Otori's first tournament win??? I hope not, cause that makes my point even stronger.

No, it doesn't. Not in the slightest.

 

[Kuro~]

I am pro-ban. But with how split the community is (half are going through with it half aren't. Defeats the whole purpose) i really think he needs to be legal again. But if he does we should switch to japanese ruleset. Imo. But at the same time i think we should wait ~6months b4 we legalize him again.

 

[theunabletable]

What was the difference? 1 was money on the line so maybe Otori just sand bags in Japan (doubt it).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y

People need to get over the money thing lol

Don't they also play with a larger clock? Do they still have the scrooging and air time rules? All of these are discrete nerfs to MK and as a result they don't (or might not) have an MK problem.

Yeah, I think this is why Suinoko made that blog before Apex saying that the Apex ruleset still favored MK too much.

And why Seibrik made his thread saying that the ruleset plays a part in it.

Your premises don't lead to ONLY your conclusion.

How do people not see an issue with an MK in the same region as the guy who was predicted by EVERYONE to win, because he was way better than everyone else, come to a slightly more liberal stage list/ruleset and beat the guy who is way better than everyone else, and at the same time this be his only tournament win ever. And then upon returning back to Japan (as Iblis has indicated to me) has been doing poorly since.

This indicates to me that we're likely buffing MK too much, just to stick to competitive "values".

The greatest irony of these values, however, is present before the final s.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So, Judo, in your version MK is overpowered, but Nietono happened to be an upbar player that beat the **** out of everyone else in the tournament because he's awesome, and Otori randomly beated him because of MK?

And no what I'm saying is Nietono who is AMAZING beat the hell out of all of our players because he was WAY better than our players (at least according to others) but he didn't beat Otori because he wasn't WAY better than Otori (people tell me he IS in fact better than Otori) so that just points to the fact that in order to beat MK you need to be WAY better (cumulatively or at the MU or both) and if you are only slightly better or flat out better you can't expect to consistently beat a good MK.

Right.....
Fun thing is that I was being kind of sarcastic there.......

 

[infiniteV115]

And in this case, it's clearly not the case – MK is great, but not even remotely broken. Want proof? Well, we have what are clearly top MKs losing, in no particular order, to:
-ICs (Kakera vs. ESAM)
-Olimar (Nairo and Ally vs. Nietono)
-ROB (M2K vs. Ocean)
...and more.

Just wanted to point out that Kakera only used ICs against ESAM.

 

[EthereaL]

Things rarely, rarely need banned in a game. MK didn't "break" the game in any way. Was he the best? Yes. But he was beatable.

People who disagree, host a MK-less tournament, and have 1 average player train with and use MK (just as a test). If they can consistently win, by all means. Ban him.

Guess what? He won't win. He'll still be just that; an average player.

Frustration.

 

[Browny]

Hmmmm

nope.

 

[EthereaL]

Hmmmm

nope.

The close-mindedness of those opposed to MK is staggering, especially in their "evidence".

Regarding whoever was bawling about Japan's Otori doing better...

You're arguments are absolutely dumb, as are the majority of the anti-MK arguments.

"They nerf his main less in our stagelist. And he does better?! The character is broken." if Snake mains couldn't use their down>B in Japan, they would do better in America when they could.

"Someone beat a better player? The character is broken." because upsets never happen.

"The 25/50 top players use MK" because best means broken

"The players who main MK can't do as well with other characters." okay, sorry DEHF. No more Falco. I'm sure you'll do just as well.

My apologies for raging; I tend not to post unless I have something constructive to say.

Note: I feel as if the MK ban expands the depth and enjoyment of the game, and I'm glad it happened. However, the reasoning behind it on the part of the pro-ban members en masse is utterly ridiculous.

 

[WindMajor]

That's because you're ignoring the pro ban's biggest points.

 

[EthereaL]

That's because you're ignoring the pro ban's biggest points.

I was attacking his particular reasonings regarding Otari (autocorrect, bah), not the MK argument in particular (although I did, and do, hold that the arguments on the whole are dumb from the pro-ban side).

Edit: also, I had lumped "everyone" into one category, because that's the stance of the vast majority of the anti-MK people. I understand that many people believe they have adequate evidence to ban MK. It was not attack on those, only on the "omg people win with him" stance.

 

[shaSLAM]

what are those "real" points again?

something about planking and him having good offensive options or something like that? idk im trying not to be an *** im asking that question in sincerity also, because all the good points get showered out by the masses of scrubs that surround the pro ban cause.

anyways, my stance is this;
marvel 2 players played a game for about ten years where roughly 4 characters made the rest of the cast (and a huuge cast at that) virtually unplayable. and you know whats funny? they loooved the **** out of it.
it just proves our immaturity in comparision to most other communities and what they would do in our situation.

 

[Flayl]

Once again, somebody brings up Marvel 2 without stopping to think why the analogy doesn't work.

Here's a hint: Pro-ban doesn't want MK banned because he makes lower tier characters unviable

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Let me break down exactly why the Analogy fails. It's appliable at best to Melee.

Why? Because there's FOUR CHARACTERS in the best tier in MvC2.

There is ONE CHARACTER in the best tier in Brawl. That changes the comparison entirely.

Also, no, it has nothing to do with making all the other tiers viable. That's a general bonus and very nice to have. Increasing metagames is great as well. All a neat aftereffect, and, to note, is not guaranteed to happen either. Viability will not indefinitely increase, etc.

 

[Okuser]

what are those "real" points again?

something about planking and him having good offensive options or something like that? idk im trying not to be an *** im asking that question in sincerity also, because all the good points get showered out by the masses of scrubs that surround the pro ban cause.

anyways, my stance is this;
marvel 2 players played a game for about ten years where roughly 4 characters made the rest of the cast (and a huuge cast at that) virtually unplayable. and you know whats funny? they loooved the **** out of it.
it just proves our immaturity in comparision to most other communities and what they would do in our situation.

yea I agree.

 

[DMG]

Marvel also had a longer time to develop since we're talking combinations of 3 characters. Or ask how long it took to find some of the infininites resets and loops later on in the game's life. Marvel wasn't 10 years of everyone knowing optimal top tier **** lol.