Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Zankoku]

I have no idea about the reasoning for the bans, sorry.

 

[Thino]

if anything this tournament came to reinforce my position as anti-ban.

but it doesnt change anything to the reasons why most of pro-bans and URC want MK banned aka his overall dominance, money earned, character variety etc..

so this whole Apex thing of Japan beating USA, a Olimar getting 2nd, are all just drops in the OCEAN

 

[zmx]

Starters
Battlefield - Japan starter
Final Destination - Japan starter
Lylat Cruise - Japan counterpick
Smashville - Japan starter
Yoshi’s Island (Brawl) - Japan counterpick

Counterpicks
Battleship Halberd - banned in Japan
Pokemon Stadium 1 - either this or Delfino is a Japan counterpick
Castle Siege - banned in Japan
Delfino Plaza - see PS1
Frigate Orpheon - banned in Japan

There are either three or four stages out of 11 that Japan does not normally play on regularly, of which two of the three you mentioned are not actually stages they "never use in competitive play" and the last one was counterpicked immensely against Nietono during the one tournament where they ran the Apex stage list.

Different sources are stating different things. The commentary several times stated Japan's usage of only 3 stages. I will wait then on the matter until we can get a consensus.

However all sources agree that Frigate and Halberd are definetly banned. Both were used against the Japanese at Apex. I would still say it's even.

 

[Zankoku]

Hilariously enough Otori was the only Meta Knight I saw defeating Nietono on Frigate Orpheon, though I saw attempts from both Ally and Nairo at doing so.

Japan definitely runs on a 3 starter/3 counter list. They definitely used the Apex stage list for at least one tournament before Apex, to practice. With that in mind, I'm not about to argue about how much of a supposed disadvantage Japan was playing at on such heavily impactful stages as Frigate Orpheon and Halberd, what with all the times they were completely caught off guard by the stage nuances.

 

[Wave-Guiding Hero]

I find it hilarious that the ban hasn't even been in effect for a week and people are already calling for an MK unban.

The main argument of this thread seems to boil down to "Meta Knight isn't banworthy, we're just not good enough to fight him." Basically, a modified version of "Meta Knight isn't broken, you should just get better," an argument that AFAIK didn't help the anti-ban side very much during the discussions.

I think that the ban actually helps us get better and advance our metagame to the level of the Japanese (since it's supposedly better or something). Both sides have agreed that a major problem here in the U.S. is that many players play Meta Knight as a shortcut to winning, instead of truly developing player skill. With MK banned, that basically leaves us with no other choice but to play other characters, advance their metagames, and grow in skill.

Then, after maybe a year or two if this, we discuss and decide if Meta Knight should be unbanned. The best-case scenario is Meta Knight becomes unbanned and we have a metagame situation like Japan, where tons of characters are viable, Meta Knight is no longer overdominant (now a word ) and the skill level of all players is much greater. Everybody wins, right?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that instead of pushing for Meta Knight to be unbanned the week the ban goes into place based on the results of one tournament (which, IMO, is ridiculously premature and not very well thought out), you instead wait a while and let the metagame develop. Then, after enough time has passed, you try to get Meta Knight reintroduced to the metagame to achieve one like Japan's, which seems to be the best example so far. Compromise?

 

[JTsm]

I find it hilarious that the ban hasn't even been in effect for a week and people are already calling for an MK unban.

The main argument of this thread seems to boil down to "Meta Knight isn't banworthy, we're just not good enough to fight him." Basically, a modified version of "Meta Knight isn't broken, you should just get better," an argument that AFAIK didn't help the anti-ban side very much during the discussions.

I think that the ban actually helps us get better and advance our metagame to the level of the Japanese (since it's supposedly better or something). Both sides have agreed that a major problem here in the U.S. is that many players play Meta Knight as a shortcut to winning, instead of truly developing player skill. With MK banned, that basically leaves us with no other choice but to play other characters, advance their metagames, and grow in skill.

Then, after maybe a year or two if this, we discuss and decide if Meta Knight should be unbanned. The best-case scenario is Meta Knight becomes unbanned and we have a metagame situation like Japan, where tons of characters are viable, Meta Knight is no longer overdominant (now a word ) and the skill level of all players is much greater. Everybody wins, right?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that instead of pushing for Meta Knight to be unbanned the week the ban goes into place based on the results of one tournament (which, IMO, is ridiculously premature and not very well thought out), you instead wait a while and let the metagame develop. Then, after enough time has passed, you try to get Meta Knight reintroduced to the metagame to achieve one like Japan's, which seems to be the best example so far. Compromise?

This actually makes a lot of sense..... The first pro-ban post that doesn't sound/look weird.

 

[Thino]

I find it hilarious that the ban hasn't even been in effect for a week and people are already calling for an MK unban.

The main argument of this thread seems to boil down to "Meta Knight isn't banworthy, we're just not good enough to fight him." Basically, a modified version of "Meta Knight isn't broken, you should just get better," an argument that AFAIK didn't help the anti-ban side very much during the discussions.

I think that the ban actually helps us get better and advance our metagame to the level of the Japanese (since it's supposedly better or something). Both sides have agreed that a major problem here in the U.S. is that many players play Meta Knight as a shortcut to winning, instead of truly developing player skill. With MK banned, that basically leaves us with no other choice but to play other characters, advance their metagames, and grow in skill.

Then, after maybe a year or two if this, we discuss and decide if Meta Knight should be unbanned. The best-case scenario is Meta Knight becomes unbanned and we have a metagame situation like Japan, where tons of characters are viable, Meta Knight is no longer overdominant (now a word ) and the skill level of all players is much greater. Everybody wins, right?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that instead of pushing for Meta Knight to be unbanned the week the ban goes into place based on the results of one tournament (which, IMO, is rodiculously premature and not very well thought out), you instead wait a while and let the metagame develop. Then, after enough time has passed, you try to get Meta Knight reintroduced to the metagame to achieve one like Japan's, which seems to be the best example so far. Compromise?

I can't believe you're saying that first sentence, you talk as if anti-bans had been waiting for Apex before deciding to be anti-ban or not.

You cannot say "already" because Im pretty sure most of the anti-ban had that opinion ever since the ban was announced and the outcome of Apex shouldn't really be a deciding factor for that.

secondly you're talking about argument helping..

I don't believe that a decision that has been taken based on voting and where a majority has "won" can be modified simply by a good argument, especially since pro-bans want tournament results more than talks

So the whole unbanning MK thing we'll see that in the future, because realistically talking it prolly wont happen anytime soon

BUT..

ASSUMING Japan's "metagame" is indeed better than U.S, how exactly will not playing a character that is legal in said metagame, help U.S get better since players will basically have no experience with that matchup at majors anymore while there ARE some japanese MK players?

 

[Wave-Guiding Hero]

I can't believe you're saying that first sentence, you talk as if anti-bans had been waiting for Apex before deciding to be anti-ban or not.

You cannot say "already" because Im pretty sure most of the anti-ban had that opinion ever since the ban was announced and the outcome of Apex shouldn't really be a deciding factor for that.

Fair enough. Not really the point of my post though.

secondly you're talking about argument helping..

I don't believe that a decision that has been taken based on voting and where a majority has "won" can be modified simply by a good argument, especially since pro-bans want tournament results more than talks

So the whole unbanning MK thing we'll see that in the future, because realistically talking it prolly wont happen anytime soon

Of course, that's what I was saying.

BUT..

ASSUMING Japan's "metagame" is indeed better than U.S, how exactly will not playing a character that is legal in said metagame, help U.S get better since players will basically have no experience with that matchup at majors anymore while there ARE some japanese MK players?

My point was that the impression I get from this thread is that US players simply pick Meta Knight to get easy wins instead of playing a different character and getting better at the game skill-wise. By banning MK, players will have no other choice but to play other characters and get better at the game in a way similar to the Japanese. Thus, we'll (in theory) have a more skilled metagame, as well as one more suitable for Meta Knight.

Also, people can always practice the MK matchup at MK legal tournaments and casuals and stuff. Finally, while the ban is in place the Japanese won't be able to play MK against us anyway at US tournaments.

 

[AlphaZealot]

So basically it wasn't enough that MK took first at Apex, or that he got 2 of top 3, or half of top 8, but on top of that, it had to be US MK's to show that MK is a problem?

The Japanese tolerance may be higher than US tolerance for a character - shouldn't really mean anything here stateside though. Akuma was never banned in Japan but he was in the US - I guess even the FGC got it wrong.

Should we really cater our entire ruleset to the 2-8 Japanese players who come to the US once a year? Further, do people really think not a single non-MK Japanese would show up to further tournaments considering it is among their only shot at money?

We learned that Japan for their first time ever may be better than the US. Cool, that doesn't mean MK should get unbanned or that we should follow their every whim or even assume that what they do is better, when every other year the opposite result (Japan losing) has occurred.

 

[Cassio]

AZ its not that their tolerance is higher, its that their skill is better and hes not nearly the same level of issue for them as he is to us. And to my knowledge no ones asked for MK to be legal for 8 Japanese players. For some reason youre not acknowledging the strong arguments or distort them, and use something weaker as the main anti-ban point (youve done this a few times).

"That made bracket" ... aka 6. Which means half of the japanese didn't even qualify for brackets.

There were 3 japanese in top 8, compared to 5 US players.
6 in top 16, compared to 10.

Yeah, you're still over-exaggerating. Largely.

I actually retract my earlier statement about the results being fairly evenly mixed. Americans did marginally better in every area save the top 3.

And I know that someone's gonna come in and say the obligatory "yeah but that's because there were so many more US players than japan," but please spare me. Our top players went against their top players, and even while considering the entrant difference there is absolutely no data to support that their top players are overall considerably better than ours.


I should know by now that making serious posts in here is a waste of time.

Wait what? I used the bracket because if you look at the tournament as a whole the US did horrible. An enormous ratio of japanese did better than the US. However since japan sent some of their better players I took this into account by only considering the bracket. Its not perfect, but it makes the US look better than if we included pools as well, lol.

Using your analysis japan couldve sent one player, he couldve gotten first, and Japan wouldve done horribly

The US players had to deal with a limited stagelist that they otherwise would never have bothered with. Rainbow Cruise is a pretty cool level, and a lot of people like Brinstar. Stadium 1 is probably my favorite starter. So lame.

How did the US have to deal with this anymore then the Japanese had to deal with their stage deviations? If youre saying the apex and japanese rulesets arent going to be used anymore...well good luck with that.

 

[Zankoku]

The Japanese tolerance may be higher than US tolerance for a character - shouldn't really mean anything here stateside though. Akuma was never banned in Japan but he was in the US - I guess even the FGC got it wrong.

Somehow I feel like "higher tolerance" and "soft ban" don't exactly match. For one thing, no top players used Akuma in Japan. Plenty use Meta Knight in Japan.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Have the Japanese ever actually, officially banned a character (other than maybe Soul Caliber console-only or otherwise rare unlockables)? So the Akuma ban stateside in HD Remix? Was that mimicked in Japan? Serious question.

AZ its not that their tolerance is higher, its that their skill is better and hes not nearly the same level of issue for them as he is to us.

I'll repeat: you want to say that somehow we must be doing things wrong because for the first time ever the US lost in Smash to Japan. This is the first time. Ever. That Japan has gotten first over the US players. Heck, Apex 2010's breakout star placed 13th this year! There is a huge variation in tournament play/results, and you want to take a single data point and extract a wealth of (exaggerated) knowledge that even if it were true, wouldn't mean we have to just follow what the Japanese do. Heck, even my statement of the US repeatedly beating Japan is an exaggeration considering the two communities have only interacted on average once a year since about the end of 2004. Even taking all of those tournaments (less than 10, of which US was on top in all but 1) into account that is still too few data points to really make any solid conclusions, much less to jump ship and proclaim as if it were irrefutable that we, the US, were doing something terribly wrong, when up to this point in time we had always come out on top! Finally, and its always worth repeating, the Japanese took first with MK.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

How did the US have to deal with this anymore then the Japanese had to deal with their stage deviations? If youre saying the apex and japanese rulesets arent going to be used anymore...well good luck with that.

All I'm saying is that the idea that the Japanese were out of their comfort zone stagewise is more-or-less negated by the fact that the US players were, too.

 

[ZMan]

Have the Japanese ever actually, officially banned a character (other than maybe Soul Caliber console-only or otherwise rare unlockables)? So the Akuma ban stateside in HD Remix? Was that mimicked in Japan? Serious question.

st akuma was banned sometime in the early 2000s (read the comments in this blog). o. sagat and claw were never banned, its just looked down upon to pick them (doesn't stop people from picking them though). hdr never had an official japanese release. the only character i can think of that might have been banned in any game was petshop from jojo's bizarre adventure (though is tournament footage of that character though, ymmv.)

back to lurk mode.

 

[Mister Eric]

AZ, it wasn't that just one person outplayed us, but a good ratio of them that came did.
Last APEX, their best players weren't even there. All they were riding on was Rain.

 

[Mekos]

AZ I remember watching u play on youtube before I entered the brawl tourney scene(08/09). I have a question for u. Have u gotten better sense yer constant tourney days? Have u mastered all of Diddy's ATs? Have u tried to take Diddy to a new level? I haven't seen anything amazing of u recently and u have been around since 08 I think. And I mean that for singles or doubles.

All i see is u complain about mk. U have been in this tourney scene since the beginning and are good proof of a player that just complains instead of trying to get better or speak about improving. It is sickening. So many players here complain complain complain and when I finally play them they don't even have the basics mastered in the game such as DI

U weren't at apex to experience what we did. Stop looking at stats or results to make yer opinions. It is not the same as experiencing it. Most top level players I have talked to who were pro ban are now anti-ban after seeing Japan play.

Last statement. U talk about over-centralization or whatever but MOST people wanted mk banned cuz of how some players pocketed him and abused his "gayness". Well are utmost "gay" mk players lost at apex. That is what our community saw. And that is why so many of them are changing their minds. Nairo did well but he doesn't play a "gay" mk camping style. He rushes in and is hyper aggro. Alot of people said they enjoyed watching nairo play at apex. And the Japanese mks didn't play a "gay" mk style.

 

[AlphaZealot]

At my peak I got to 1st in the PR in Ohio for almost an entire year, top 5 in MW, and took games off the likes of M2K. Then I ran MLG in 2010 and was not allowed to enter those nationals, so my game naturally fell off. Even then, in early 2011 after not playing seriously for a year, I still took 4th/120 at SiiS4 and beat the likes of Vin/Kain/KT and took a game from Atomsk's MK in losers semi's (this is probably my last notable tournament, other than 9th at SiiS6th and some 2nds-4ths at locals in the second half of 2011). Regardless, through all of my time playing, I think you will have a bit of trouble finding any statements where I actually outwardly complain about MK, and instead simply cite things like "x in top 8" or "x percent of money" or "x in top 100 want him banned" or "insert other statistical analysis" or "why are we banning everything in the entire game and adding 2-3 rules just to keep MK legal?". Not "OMG this character is sooooo stupid, I mean jeez I cannot beat him!".

My Diddy can get better. ADHD's Diddy can get better. Gnes' Diddy can get better. So, too, can every MK' main get better. I would say the upward progression and possible ceiling for MK is higher than any other character, too boot.

Stop looking at stats or results to make yer opinions.

This is basically what needs to happen to argue MK should be legal.

 

[Player-1]

Mekos, I've master most of Diddy's ATs, recently started mastering the single naner lock infinite. I spent an hour and a half wednesday practicing on an MK in training mode until I got 999% on him without messing up. Before this I never once landed the infinite, but after that when I went to Apex I got the infinite 5 times. I beat Tyrant in a MM because of it, got it in one tournament match, and 3 times in friendlies. I'm still pro ban though. The point I'm trying to make is that MK is definitely beatable and it's true a lot of people are just giving up on their characters because of MK and I agree they shouldn't. But the fact that he's beatable doesn't have much to do with my decision in the ban and also some people will be going back to their original characters and will actually have a chance to build the metagame up of those characters now that MK is gone. Maybe sometime in the future the character's metagames will have be developed enough to be able to compete with MKs better, but I don't see that happening any time soon unless MK remains banned.

 

[zmx]

"Then I ran MLG in 2010 and was not allowed to enter those nationals, so my game naturally fell off."

wat

 

[infiniteV115]

He was a member of staff that helped run the events in MLG Pro Circuit, and as a staff member he was not allowed to participate in the tournament. MLG was big, he didn't get to play, he got rusty and died.

 

[Mekos]

@AZ - Yes, every player can get better and NOONE!! should be cocky enuff to think that they have reached a peak. That's why I used to get on ADHD about complaining so much when I saw he didn't even master that nana lock yet. Never saw it once in tourney high level play.

Stats and results are not everything. U have to actually be there and see what happens. Watch the youtube vids and see how the Japanese players play. They are alot more patient, have mastery over their character, have good defense (position themselves well to survive long), and obviously play by reading their opponents habits. With that said u will see alot of people do dumb stuff against mks that they shouldn't be doing.

When I talk to most American players, they say that they don't read their opponents. We should do a poll for that and get stats on that. My point is we all have alot of growing to do and banning a character before that is foolish.

@Player-1 - Great job mastering that buddy! Sadly tho I believe the will to advance a character must already be instilled in the player. I am not trying to sound cocky I am just stating a fact. Lucas is a terrible character but I have developed him high enuff and created a playstyle that allows me to believe the matchup with mk is close to even. Mk only has so many options and if u learn what options are best for him in certain situations u will be fine. I didn't lost to one mk at apex. I beat Orion, Kiekera(The twin), and others. Recently I haven't lost to one mk. U saw me beat Kiekera. He was so amazing but I did my best to read him.

It is up to a player to want to upgrade their character. If u want to force a community to do that by banning a character that shows alot about the people. They most likely won't do that just cuz of a ban. They will find something else. Smash is going to turn into a counter-pick battle and not about advancing a character. Mk is what made me advance my character so much in fact lol.

 

[zmx]

That's not my point. That's a terrible excuse for becoming bad. You don't participate one tournament and suddenly you stop trying all-together and automatically start to suck? I guess that means every non-tourny player is horrible by default.

It just doesn't make sense. There has to be way more to it then that.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I guess that means every non-tourny player is horrible by default.

This is actually true though, except for maybe the absolute top wifi players who don't enter tourneys - but those guys will not be beating the best tournament players.

It wasn't that I didn't get to enter 1 national. I didn't get to any 5 nationals spanning from March-November of 2010, even though I was at and running every single one of them. I still held my own locals and attended regionals where I did fairly well - but I had lost the drive I had in 2009 when I attended most of the larger nationals as a player (COT/Pound4/Genesis/EVO).

Anyways, this isn't something that should be focusing on me, so sorry for the side track there on my personal history as a player.

 

[Mekos]

The reason I asked u that is cuz it just baffles me when people complain so much but are not even at mid-level skill. That is all.
Thanks for answering. I wasn't trying to be funny or anything.

 

[zmx]

@AZ - Yes, every player can get better and NOONE!! should be cocky enuff to think that they have reached a peak. That's why I used to get on ADHD about complaining so much when I saw he didn't even master that nana lock yet. Never saw it once in tourney high level play.

Stats and results are not everything. U have to actually be there and see what happens. Watch the youtube vids and see how the Japanese players play. They are alot more patient, have mastery over their character, have good defense (position themselves well to survive long), and obviously play by their opponents habits. With that said u will see alot of people do dumb stuff against mks that they shouldn't be doing.

When I talk to most American players, they say that they don't read their opponents. We should do a poll for that and get stats on that. My point is we all have alot of growing to do and banning a character before that is foolish.

@Player-1 - Great job mastering that buddy! Sadly tho I believe the will to advance a character must already be instilled in the player. I am not trying to sound cocky I am just stating a fact. Lucas is a terrible character but I have developed him high enuff and created a playstyle that allows me to believe the matchup with mk is close to even. Mk only has so many options and if u learn what options are best for him in certain situations u will be fine. I didn't lost to one mk at apex. I beat Orion, Kiekera(The twin), and others. Recently I haven't lost to one mk. U saw me beat Kiekera. He was so amazing but I did my best to read him.

It is up to a player to want to upgrade their character. If u want to force a community to do that by banning a character that shows alot about the people. They most likely won't do that just cuz of a ban. They will find something else. Smash is going to turn into a counter-pick battle and not about advancing a character. Mk is what made me advance my character so much in fact lol.

I was talking to Neo on a chat before Apex and he brought up an interesting point that you just reminded me of.

He stated that with MK banned, players, especially mid-tier players, could rely a lot more on gimmicks and get easier wins this way. But with MK in the game they are forced to get better or not place as well for he is the ultimate gimmick killer. In other words they HAVE to achieve more mastery over their character to stand a chance.

 

[Mekos]

Exactly!! That is what happened with me. I got so frustrated that my playstyle didn't work against mk. For example, M2k ***** me at genesis 2. I couldn't touch him. We didn't play at apex but before that we went even in friendlies at more recent tourneys. That is to show that people can get better. It is about advancing yer character, mentality, and learning yer opponents characters options.

At apex did u know what someone did to me. They went Dk simply to try and infinite me. I was disgusted and 5 stocked him with slight anger! That is the mindset behind most people. People play to win. Few people play for the love of their character. Yall must understand this and not try to force a community to love a character and advance them. That argument is not valid. Mk being gone will not force that.

 

[Zero_Saber]

I really don't understand the argument that banning him will help the metagames of other characters. In Apex alone (the biggest and most representative tournament to date) we had 22 (assuming Vinnie didn't use GnW) characters make bracket. How can a character be so over-centralizing that he needs to be banned if over 1/2 of the cast is still viable in the right persons hands?

I support a rule that prevents double MK teams (although I believe that's more than beatable) but in singles there are plenty of characters who are viable even with MK being legal. I agree with Mekos that MK forces non-MK players to get better with their respective characters. Banning him only helps the people who never bothered to learn the match-up or who learned it and then stopped relearning it as the metagame developed.

It really comes down to how can a character who is clearly the best but not overcentralizing worthy of a ban?

 

[Ussi]

I dunno about other mid tiers.. but beating MK with Ike is a gimmick in itself :|

 

[M@v]

I see it as 2 options:

Mk banned, but more diverse stagelist.

Much much more restricted stagelist, but mk legal. By more restricted i mean maybe 7 stages tops , maybe less (AKA japanese stagelist)

Doubles he should be banned regardless of stages imo. In the current state of things you dont have a mk on your team, you lose. There are very few exceptions, such as zss/ness.

 

[Cygnet]

I don't think anyone has address my argument yet, so I guess I'll restate it:

MK is necessary for the advancement and growth of our players and our community as a whole.

EDIT: What it says above each collapse is what I want to refute, not what I want to say! (Besides the 3rd one.)

[collapse=MK is overcentralizing the metagame!]It's pretty obvious that he's cornered the character market fairly well. But is it overcentralization? Is it really bad for us? I think it's good for us.

If you play a character not MK in a world where MK exists, then you have to advance your character more and more in order to surpass the gap in between you and your character. Like Mekos and Mikehaze say, MK gives characters like Lucas and Marth a bar that is higher than they are to pass. Everyone has to tackle the MK matchup, and in the case of both of the aforementioned characters, doing so gives players an increased understanding of their own character and the game while advancing their own character.

Because MK is better than everyone else, everyone has to catch up. And they do - look at all of the anti-MK tech that exist, like Marth or Yoshi's GR stuff on MK. Meanwhile, they can do that stuff to Sopo or Ganon too, but no one would care or try to find out about that because MK is the one that they have to beat because he is every where.

MK's "overcentralization" forces players to improve in order to beat him.[/collapse]

[collapse=MK is the easy way out!]I noticed that AZ said that banning MK will make players have to work harder because taking MK is the easy way out, making our game better.

But have you considered that without MK, we wouldn't be able to reach our current metagame's level of advancement? That if we had no MK, we could work harder and still be at a less advanced metagame?

I wouldn't disagree with you, however, that MK is sort of an "easy way out."

But the existence of one helps encourage newer players who, admittedly, want to get good fast. What if they had no MK? They would have to work much harder and may quit, and even if those kinds of people are the ones hurting our mindsets, less players means that our metagame may begin to stagnate. MK provides beginners with a welcome as opposed to being forced to work for months before even taking a stock off of a real player.

In addition, if you play MK, you don't need a secondary. That means you can focus all of your determination and efforts into mastering one character as opposed to having to distribute your efforts among a bunch of different characters who all cover each other's bad matchups. As a result, MK will (and does) have a very advanced metagame, and other characters will be forced to advance even further past that, meaning that our metagame will be accelerated.[/collapse]

[collapse=Why MK makes us more competitive AND WHY THE JAPANESE ARE NECESSARILY BETTER]The outcome of a Brawl match is most dependent on player skill, character match-ups, and stage counterpicks. A player must worry about all 3 while playing.

What if, like the Japanese, we simplified the stage list? You wouldn't have to concentrate on both getting used to a weird stage and improving yourself as a player simultaneously, you could focus on the latter. Which is why I think a limited stage list encourages growth.

America is taking the opposite path by banning MK. Characters will be much more diverse, obviously, but that means that you have to worry about all these match-ups instead of just you improving yourself.

At the end of the day, isn't player skill the most important variable? If Brawl is most dependent on that (i.e. by limiting stage lists and actually allowing MK to centralize our game), doesn't that make it a competitive game?

By focusing on weird CPs or weird MUs, we're compromising our own skill as players, allowing the power of our respective MUs or our CPs to substitute for that.[/collapse]

[collapse=inb4weshouldallplayMK]Obviously, all 3 factors are required in our game.

I think that, before the ban, we were, or approaching, a sort of equilibrium.

Imagine a world with only MKs. And then one Diddy comes along! He knows the MK MU super well, but everyone else is absolutely clueless. MU knowledge gave him such an edge over the MKs that he wins! MK players catch on to this and begin playing other characters in order to get the edge over the opponents. MK may be the best, but if there's too much MK, he might not really be the best anymore. MK levels fall.

Imagine a world with no MK (but he is not banned). Anyone could pick up MK and be playing the best character! People wouldn't have absolutely mastered that MU to the extent that players today have because the characters they face are just so diverse, they've had to spread their MU knowledge among 35 characters. Then the MK player wins because of that. More players catch on to him and being playing MK. MK levels rise.

Clearly, you can see that our complex system gives rise to an equilibrium for character distribution. By banning MK, we're artificially throwing a wrench into the system; we're forcing our metagame towards one side, making our metagame unbalanced and not as developed as it could be.[/collapse]

I probably missed something; I would be more than happy if someone could point out weaknesses in my argument. Kinda encompasses and addresses what a lot of people were talking about before me.

 

[Mekos]

I see it as 2 options:

Mk banned, but more diverse stagelist.

Much much more restricted stagelist, but mk legal. By more restricted i mean maybe 7 stages tops , maybe less (AKA japanese stagelist)

Doubles he should be banned regardless of stages imo. In the current state of things you dont have a mk on your team, you lose. There are very few exceptions, such as zss/ness.

I think we should up the timer up to ten minutes, alter the stage list, and allow mk to be legal.

And I didn't make it to bracket not cuz of mk lol. But because of a snake and yoshi. Both characters who have deadly grab shenanigans on my character. And it did get abused. I know lucas is not a singles tourney viable character so I'm not mad. But I will still do my best. That is my personal drive and passion.

 

[BSP]

I keep seeing that having MK legal forces us to use our mains/improve to catch up to him.

What exactly is this "force" that will drive us stick with our characters and discover their options against MK? If people haven't stuck to their guns up to this point, what's going to make them change their minds? I mean, there's still nothing stopping you from going MK yourself and just making the MU a true 50/50

 

[infiniteV115]

For those that want MK banned from doubles; is it that you just want double MK (ie Red Team = MK+MK) banned, or would you also want MK+other character banned?

 

[Zero_Saber]

I see it as 2 options:

Mk banned, but more diverse stagelist.

Much much more restricted stagelist, but mk legal. By more restricted i mean maybe 7 stages tops , maybe less (AKA japanese stagelist)

Doubles he should be banned regardless of stages imo. In the current state of things you dont have a mk on your team, you lose. There are very few exceptions, such as zss/ness.

I agree with Mekos and also think that while he may lead us to a more restricted stagelist it shouldn't be much more restrictive. Getting rid of RC and Brinstar should be more than enough to counter any unfair edge he has.

 

[M@v]

I keep seeing that having MK legal forces us to use our mains/improve to catch up to him.

What exactly is this "force" that will drive us stick with our characters and discover their options against MK? If people haven't stuck to their guns up to this point, what's going to make them change their minds? I mean, there's still nothing stopping you from going MK yourself and just making the MU a true 50/50

True in theory, horribly wrong in practice.

If you think your going to just pick up mk and make the mk mu 50/50 your mistaken. Mk mains who have played him for a while are so well versed in the mk mu it will be almost impossible to catch them in their proficiency. Your better off using your standard character imo.

 

[Mekos]

I keep seeing that having MK legal forces us to use our mains/improve to catch up to him.

What exactly is this "force" that will drive us stick with our characters and discover their options against MK? If people haven't stuck to their guns up to this point, what's going to make them change their minds? I mean, there's still nothing stopping you from going MK yourself and just making the MU a true 50/50

U misunderstood. They were saying that having him banned will force that to happen. We were just giving a few examples where the opposite has happened.

 

[Cygnet]

U misunderstood. They were saying that having him banned will force that to happen. We were just giving a few examples where the opposite has happened.

Actually, I am guilty of having claimed that MK's existence forces non-MK mains to improve in order to surpass or match MK mains in tourney. (I think anti-ban says what I just said, and pro-ban says that MK's ban makes other characters better.)

Part of the reason why is character loyalists. BSP is partially right in that you could just play MK and shoot up to that level, but not everyone is willing to do that. Look at Nietono: even when faced with a possible lost set to Ally's MK on Frigate, he stayed true to his character even though MK could've evened out the odds for him. (Although, yes, I know he did play MK sometime during Apex.)

Look at people like Mekos or Mikehaze. (I know that Mikehaze has picked up MK, but he did so not because of the Marth-MK MU, but because of the combination of Marth-MK and RC/Brinstar.) They won't ever regularly play MK (I think), and they won't quit the game. People like them, and their drive, are the forces that BSP is referring to.

A lot of top players of certain characters are top players of that character because they just LOVE that character. Because of that, they won't take up MK, but they won't quit; there is no alternative but to advance your character or your skill.

 

[zmx]

Wow.

356 posts already and this topic is like 2 days old.

 

[BSP]

True in theory, horribly wrong in practice.

If you think your going to just pick up mk and make the mk mu 50/50 your mistaken. Mk mains who have played him for a while are so well versed in the mk mu it will be almost impossible to catch them in their proficiency. Your better off using your standard character imo.

Of course you can't just pick him up and expect to be on even ground with an MK main. But it's not impossible to learn the MU yourself. I mean, wouldn't you say Ally was pretty far behind M2K at the point in time when he started going MK for the MK MU? Or pretty much anyone that has picked up MK. It's not simple of course, but you can still catch them if you put in the effort.

 

[Ghostbone]

True in theory, horribly wrong in practice.

If you think your going to just pick up mk and make the mk mu 50/50 your mistaken. Mk mains who have played him for a while are so well versed in the mk mu it will be almost impossible to catch them in their proficiency. Your better off using your standard character imo.

What about Ally?

Edit: BSP already said it