Shroomed
Smash Master
i can WD outta shield in friendlies
but i mess up in tourney
but i mess up in tourney
-
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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
learn how to do it better then
Desh
Smash Ace
Its really easy o_o
i have a bunch of vids i can/should upload but im lazy.
Lol, only reason i made myself get better at wd oos was cuz of steve, and KK being all like 'NOOB DO IT NOW'
i have a bunch of vids i can/should upload but im lazy.
Lol, only reason i made myself get better at wd oos was cuz of steve, and KK being all like 'NOOB DO IT NOW'
Hmm. *Looks at frame data*
Na. Marth's grab is normal. Infact, his dashing grab comes out 1 frame faster than normal.
I wouldnt say that as much as he understands that alot of characters dont actually have a move to beat spotdodging and alot of people dont expect a multiple spotdodges.
If soembody wants to, they literally can do the same thing with doc (and actually a good bit of the cast)
Yeah, that's one thing that makes the marth matchup do-able. Any blocked f.smash that's not tipper = punishment. I normally do D.smash or grab, but I was messing around with upsmash yesterday. I have to gerry-rig (LOL YES HAVENT HEARD THAT WORD IN YEARS) a controller to f.smash then block and see if its possible to punish with wavedash -> u.smash.
Cause if it works, so help me God I'ma start puttin n***as in break mode for f.smashin my shield.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Every time I don't do D-smash right inside your shield to get all 3 hits on it, you should wait a bit and WD OoS and grab me into some BS chain grab gayness or at the very least D-smash -- wait why am I explaining myself?
NOOB DO IT NOW
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
I love you, Dogy. And you know why.
Doc question: Is Ganondorf a tough match-up for Doc? Or should it be easy mode? What kinda options does he (Ganon) have against Doc?
Smooth Criminal
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Doc vs Ganon is basically Doc runs away and then eventually he gets punched in the face (or grabbed comboed into a punch to the face) and realizes his pain killers aren't fast acting enough.
It's not too bad though.
It's not too bad though.
It's even imo.
Ganon can keep Doc out, but that's his only real option. It's not like it's a bad option, but somethings doc "doesnt have an answer for", such as retreating f.air. (I have to mess around with some things, I think I have a way to get something out of a ganon retreating f.air).
But doc gets in, doc gets combos. MORE COMBOS THAN YOU HAVE ROOM FOR! TURBO COMBOS! Plus, Doc can throw pills and actually force ganon to do something, which is hard for ganon to do. His best option vs pills is the default best option; just go around them. He cant really come through them. (He's actually big/slow enough that he has a hard time running under Doc who only FH Pill).
Edgeguarding ganon? For the most part it's just pick where he's going to be and b.air, cape if he up+bs. But ganon can actually defend himself on recovery (and do it well). so you have to make sure he doesnt have another option or else you can catch something hilarious like a d.air.
--edit--
*Looks at kirbykaze*
LOLOLOLOLOL I wish.
Ganon can keep Doc out, but that's his only real option. It's not like it's a bad option, but somethings doc "doesnt have an answer for", such as retreating f.air. (I have to mess around with some things, I think I have a way to get something out of a ganon retreating f.air).
But doc gets in, doc gets combos. MORE COMBOS THAN YOU HAVE ROOM FOR! TURBO COMBOS! Plus, Doc can throw pills and actually force ganon to do something, which is hard for ganon to do. His best option vs pills is the default best option; just go around them. He cant really come through them. (He's actually big/slow enough that he has a hard time running under Doc who only FH Pill).
Edgeguarding ganon? For the most part it's just pick where he's going to be and b.air, cape if he up+bs. But ganon can actually defend himself on recovery (and do it well). so you have to make sure he doesnt have another option or else you can catch something hilarious like a d.air.
--edit--
*Looks at kirbykaze*
LOLOLOLOLOL I wish.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I think Ganon can get into Doc decently enough, he just has to have mindgames :D
ganon doesnt want to run in on doc, that's the point. He can just stay at range and space.
He comes in past midrange, he's liable to get grabbed, which at the least can get him chaingrabbed. He can catch an u.smash, which gets him comboed. Doc calls an aerial with d.air, that leads to combos. There's not too much of a reason for ganon to go in on doc.
He comes in past midrange, he's liable to get grabbed, which at the least can get him chaingrabbed. He can catch an u.smash, which gets him comboed. Doc calls an aerial with d.air, that leads to combos. There's not too much of a reason for ganon to go in on doc.
eighteenspikes
Smash Master
doc dies in like 2 hits, garbage ganons have given me more trouble than they should so its definitely not a 'good' matchup. the best strat is to run at him and do rising upairs. lol
Ok, garbage ganons give you problems.
Garbage ganons get turned into combo videos by me.
It's even.
DONE!
-starts doin the "white people point" dance-
Garbage ganons get turned into combo videos by me.
It's even.
DONE!
-starts doin the "white people point" dance-
Maybe I just do it to Marth more because it's what works.
yeah, garbage ganons=punching bags, and as I can't combo well, that's saying something XD
I'd say it might be even, may be like 6-4 ganon, but remember, 6-4 isn't 9-1. It's pretty ****ing even... no matter what smash players tell you XD
I'd say it might be even, may be like 6-4 ganon, but remember, 6-4 isn't 9-1. It's pretty ****ing even... no matter what smash players tell you XD
otg
Smash Master
I think the matchup is even, if not stage dependant in one or the others favor. I'm sure Yoshi's and DL would be good for Ganon, but Doc would do well on like FD or BF or something.
AIGHT,
first and foremost, bossmagnet is finally putting up some hilarious vids from FAST1 (yeah, last summer i know).
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Here's me beatboxing while Shiz, Speedn, PB&J, and DJN do some dancing.
I hope she uploads the freestyle vids.
___
As for doc/ganon stages.
You dont want to give ganon a top platform. Ganon has a hard time running under pills because of how he runs (which is very vertical compared to marth and ciel~~eer, sheik. XD).
With that being said, FD, PS, and (believe it or not) Corneria are real good vs ganon. (PS works because, even though it changes often, a majority of the stage is in neutral).
Realistically any stage with a top platform is bad because doc takes forever to attack a top platform, and it's not safe vs ganon (you try just about anything and you're asking to get stomped). So I could argue against any stage, but realisitcally any stage with a high platform is trouble.
The only thing you have to stop him from going up there is to cut him off before he gets there. To be more specific, you actually have to cut him before he starts to go up, because his double jump is quick and high enough to cover the space below him. Once he gets up there, its usually in your best interest to back off. He cant do anything to you up there, but he can basically stop you from getting up to him if he wants to. (you actually have one option of up+bing and then falling back down).
first and foremost, bossmagnet is finally putting up some hilarious vids from FAST1 (yeah, last summer i know).
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tDvPmBrW8zg&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tDvPmBrW8zg&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
Here's me beatboxing while Shiz, Speedn, PB&J, and DJN do some dancing.
I hope she uploads the freestyle vids.
___
As for doc/ganon stages.
You dont want to give ganon a top platform. Ganon has a hard time running under pills because of how he runs (which is very vertical compared to marth and ciel~~eer, sheik. XD).
With that being said, FD, PS, and (believe it or not) Corneria are real good vs ganon. (PS works because, even though it changes often, a majority of the stage is in neutral).
Realistically any stage with a top platform is bad because doc takes forever to attack a top platform, and it's not safe vs ganon (you try just about anything and you're asking to get stomped). So I could argue against any stage, but realisitcally any stage with a high platform is trouble.
The only thing you have to stop him from going up there is to cut him off before he gets there. To be more specific, you actually have to cut him before he starts to go up, because his double jump is quick and high enough to cover the space below him. Once he gets up there, its usually in your best interest to back off. He cant do anything to you up there, but he can basically stop you from getting up to him if he wants to. (you actually have one option of up+bing and then falling back down).
anthony000
Smash Journeyman
Uh, something about Doc. I really think dash attack is great. Maybe that's noobish to say, but Doc's dash attack sets up so much stuff it's ridiculous. I'm not saying spam it, but throwing one out as a change up in approach can really mess people up. Sometimes I fall into this "When all else fails, dash attack" mentally during matches, and it gets me destroyed. But once you've hit with one dash attack and then completed the **** that should come after that (its all about reading the DI), people with be mad worried about it, and that leads to even more mindgame induced ****. It also goes under shields on some characters if they don't angle the shield down. Most of the time they won't because they don't even see it coming. Alright, someone (dogy) correct me or elaborate or some sh*t.
eighteenspikes
Smash Master
awwwww yea. anthony knows whats goin on. no need to elaborate. dash attack rules i use it a lot. you are on your way to becoming a great doc 
Shroomed
Smash Master
dash attack seems to always get me shield grabbed
Depends who you are playing.
All you have to do to punish a DA is light shield or aim it low.
Free grabs.
Against my brother, whom I play against every day, I rarely use it because he knows how to punish it.
Against anyone else, it's probably my second most-used launcher.
But, even then, you have to be almost 100% certain it will land because it's rather high on the cool down.
On the other, other hand, it does poke shields rather easily, and it's usually a safe bet against someone shielding.
All you have to do to punish a DA is light shield or aim it low.
Free grabs.
Against my brother, whom I play against every day, I rarely use it because he knows how to punish it.
Against anyone else, it's probably my second most-used launcher.
But, even then, you have to be almost 100% certain it will land because it's rather high on the cool down.
On the other, other hand, it does poke shields rather easily, and it's usually a safe bet against someone shielding.
Dash attack is aight.
-Good for extending combos (like, in a situation where you cant do any kind of u.air, because dash attack comes out lower)
-Recovery is inverse to spacing (the better you space it, the lower the recovery is)
-Good for edgeguarding
-Tech crouch (smash terms: it moves your hurt box lower.) About equal to Doc's crouch.
-Links into combos at certain percents (i.e. - dash-a -> grab, dash-a->d.smash, etc etc.
It's not like, the greatest dash attack in the world, but it's not bad by any stretch of the imagination.
-Good for extending combos (like, in a situation where you cant do any kind of u.air, because dash attack comes out lower)
-Recovery is inverse to spacing (the better you space it, the lower the recovery is)
-Good for edgeguarding
-Tech crouch (smash terms: it moves your hurt box lower.) About equal to Doc's crouch.
-Links into combos at certain percents (i.e. - dash-a -> grab, dash-a->d.smash, etc etc.
It's not like, the greatest dash attack in the world, but it's not bad by any stretch of the imagination.
otg
Smash Master
Hi Doc's. I'm at a wedding right now, but I wish I playing smash. Btw, utilt == god.
anthony000
Smash Journeyman
Wow, I wasn't completely off in my accessment. Yay! for me! And wow, I know utilt is really good, but I still don't use it nearly enough. Shame on me.
soap
Smash Hero
shiz has got flow
i saw that vid of him in the walgreens parking lot 2
i saw that vid of him in the walgreens parking lot 2
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N***er's just a lil too **** technical. XD
Christopher Rodriguez
The illest Project M Bowser
not gonna lie
thats tightttt.
thats tightttt.
DaShizWiz and DJN's Bowser are awesome dancers. But I'm gonna bring the topic back to Doc so I can talk about myself/mydoc.
I finally found a group of experienced people who are significantly better than me to play against on a regular basis. And I've finally been shown just how horrible Captain Falcon is for Doc. I have never been destroyed as many times in a row with Doc as I have against Falcon. I can do nothing against him but triple bair him off the stage. I'll let you know if I ever beat a Falcon in the group I play with, and what I did. I only won one match and I think it was because the dude was sick of playing me. Stupid anecdote, but even though I lost a lot of matches at this smashfest last night, I have NEVER felt more good about my Doc. I'm starting to get consistent at least, and I feel good enough to not get last place in tournies now.</boring human interesting story>
I got away with a LOT stupid stuff, mostly against Marth players. I usmashed and fair'd a lot. Got BIG rewards. I triple faired some Marth. I felt like Captain Falcon. I also messed around a lot with cape and upsmash. The upsmash approach against Sheik/Marth got me much better rewards than I thought it would. I didn't spam it, but it tended to be safe when I tried it. I also jump backwards>cape>usmash'd a few aerial approaches on quite a lot of different characters. I caped a few shields and got some hits from the confusion. That works especially well when people want to sheild grab you. Free grab. I throw out the cape SO much more after doing that frame data thing. It's SO safe if you space it.
Next time I smash with this group I'll try to remember more specific things I did so you experienced docs can tell me if the **** I do actually works well, or if I'm just mad lucky.
Right now I just want your opinions on caping shields and standing opponents. Also I want you all to mess around a lot more with the cape for things other than screwing recoveries. It hits EVERYWHERE and confuses the hell out of people. lol Doc Homework. Lemme know how nooby I am in the next posts.
I finally found a group of experienced people who are significantly better than me to play against on a regular basis. And I've finally been shown just how horrible Captain Falcon is for Doc. I have never been destroyed as many times in a row with Doc as I have against Falcon. I can do nothing against him but triple bair him off the stage. I'll let you know if I ever beat a Falcon in the group I play with, and what I did. I only won one match and I think it was because the dude was sick of playing me. Stupid anecdote, but even though I lost a lot of matches at this smashfest last night, I have NEVER felt more good about my Doc. I'm starting to get consistent at least, and I feel good enough to not get last place in tournies now.</boring human interesting story>
I got away with a LOT stupid stuff, mostly against Marth players. I usmashed and fair'd a lot. Got BIG rewards. I triple faired some Marth. I felt like Captain Falcon. I also messed around a lot with cape and upsmash. The upsmash approach against Sheik/Marth got me much better rewards than I thought it would. I didn't spam it, but it tended to be safe when I tried it. I also jump backwards>cape>usmash'd a few aerial approaches on quite a lot of different characters. I caped a few shields and got some hits from the confusion. That works especially well when people want to sheild grab you. Free grab. I throw out the cape SO much more after doing that frame data thing. It's SO safe if you space it.
Next time I smash with this group I'll try to remember more specific things I did so you experienced docs can tell me if the **** I do actually works well, or if I'm just mad lucky.
Right now I just want your opinions on caping shields and standing opponents. Also I want you all to mess around a lot more with the cape for things other than screwing recoveries. It hits EVERYWHERE and confuses the hell out of people. lol Doc Homework. Lemme know how nooby I am in the next posts.
Shroomed
Smash Master
caping shields is an excellent idea, as long as you dont do it all the time
they won't punish it unless they're expecting it from my experience
they won't punish it unless they're expecting it from my experience
Click for fullsize
Im the corny lookin guy on the right. Guy on the left is $mashmac, guy in the back/middle is xYz.
I look like a boxer? XD Man im so out of shape it's not even funny.
See, I keep tellin people about Doc/Falcon. It's kinda dumb. It's really not as bad as I used to make it out to be (you just have to know some things about the matchup), but it's one that you really "cant play the same".
1) Capfal is, using traditional terms, a rushdown character. The important thing to note about this is that for him to EVER do anything to you, he has to be close to you.
2) Capfal's movement speed cant be beat. That's the one thing of his character you dont want to challange (i.e., you dont challenge fox's ability to keep pressure, you dont challenge marth's control at mid range). You dont want to challenge capfal's speed.
- What that really means is that you dont want to challenge his ability to run from you and for him to catch you. You still have to actually TRY to move to give him a moving target. If he's going to space a n.air, you still have to challenge him spacing it properly (by cutting it off if it's long, moving if it's short, whatever you strat is), but if he's freely moving around, you cant really do anything to stop him immediately. (You have to work to corner and cut him off)
3) Going more off of his speed, understand that his first option for defense is going to be evasion. Meaning, if he whiffs something in your face, he's more likely to move than he is to attack; and then more likely to attack than put his shield up. Regardless of what he does for defense, it will more often than not have some sort of evasion (read: movement) tagged into it.
-With this in mind, understand that if he's going to move out, you're at liberty to move behind him and take a better position (which would be close to him). Capfal doesnt want you close to him. NOBODY wants you close to them. But again, you cant specifically CHASE falcon down, so you have to move in bit by bit and just keep him contained.
4) Everybody talks about DIing away, do it. DI every ****ing thing he does away except for something you expect to kill you (or something he cant follow up on, such as a f.smash). Understand that at certain times he can follow up, but it's a hell of alot harder if you actually DI away. XD
Oh hell yeah. I've been f**kin around with it for a while. Works wonders on characters with a horrible b.air and j.side-b.
And then Doc has immediate Capedashing? Awww yeah
That's the main thing I love about Doc's cape compared to Mario's.
Christopher Rodriguez
The illest Project M Bowser
I've pretty much given up vs Captain Falcon.. The matchup is more like.. trying to find that glimpse of opportunity to get a grab, or else your just fending him off. That's all i've ever gotten from it.
Tri state's falcons = hax + scar.. Whenever I play them its like a tragic car accident in the end
Question: I dont chaingrab enough, is this a serious problem these days or what.. I really want to know your opinions, sorry for a dumb question.
Tri state's falcons = hax + scar.. Whenever I play them its like a tragic car accident in the end
Question: I dont chaingrab enough, is this a serious problem these days or what.. I really want to know your opinions, sorry for a dumb question.
otg
Smash Master
Note to the rest of the Docs:
Play Sheik. She's like the better version of Doc and can do all the same ****. Better matchups overall, faster, better range, drastically better recovery, VERTICAL KO options. I'm just saying.
Play Sheik. She's like the better version of Doc and can do all the same ****. Better matchups overall, faster, better range, drastically better recovery, VERTICAL KO options. I'm just saying.
Sheik can go suck a potato.
Capfal is where it's at.
Also, Doc vs Capfal is pretty much my favorite match-up next to spacies.
Also, also, that was a bad joke, Dogy.
Also, also, also, you now have me saying Capfal, Dogy.
I used to just say Falcon.
Capfal is where it's at.
Also, Doc vs Capfal is pretty much my favorite match-up next to spacies.
Also, also, that was a bad joke, Dogy.
Also, also, also, you now have me saying Capfal, Dogy.
I used to just say Falcon.
Christopher Rodriguez
The illest Project M Bowser
bahamutz69
Smash Journeyman
doggys hot
anyways
so im currently playing mario way more than doc
for basically 1 reason
mario can aerial>utilt and throw out a perfect combo trajectory
i notice when i do this with doc his utilt has a totally different knock back
so i was just wondering if theres a way to get around it
anything that sets up for sex combos like mario
anyways
so im currently playing mario way more than doc
for basically 1 reason
mario can aerial>utilt and throw out a perfect combo trajectory
i notice when i do this with doc his utilt has a totally different knock back
so i was just wondering if theres a way to get around it
anything that sets up for sex combos like mario
otg
Smash Master
There's no point, he somehow thinks that Doc v Jiggly is a bad matchup for Doc. That whole matchup chart is ******** and will probably not go anywhere just like pretty much all other matchup charts out there. Also, I don't like the way it is layed out. He has certain matchups at 100-0, and I'm sorry but no such matchup exists besides MAYBE Bowser vs. Sheik on FD.
Nuff said.
InterimOfZeal
Smash Champion
Hey guize.
Just fsmash falcon's approaches.
Just fsmash falcon's approaches.
The first half (Not exact, but you get the point) of the U-Tilt sends them mostly sideways-ish, but if you hit them with the second "Half" (When his fist gets really big), it will send them straight up.
So if the problem is with timing, you just need to work on throwing it out a little earlier. Otherwise, you would be better off, instead of U-Tilting after an aerial, to (Jab >) Grab > U/D-Throw first. Then, U-Tilt.
EDIT: POST 1111, LOLLLLS