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Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

Discussion in 'Doctor Mario' started by otg, May 27, 2008.

  1. otg

    otg
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    Smash Master

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    I figured since this boards lacks a Q&A for the Doctor, we could bring all questions we had about him here, as well as talking about his places in teams.

    Edit: 6/25/09 Dthrow CG shennanigans



    Edit: 1/9/09

    Most people don't know that Doc is actually at the bottom of High tier above Samus. We're here to prove that to you. As a result, the Doc boards have decided to talk matchups and try to figure out Doc truly stands amongst the rest of the cast. As of right now, this is the current list (beta):


    Disadvantage:
    - Falcon/Marth/Sheik

    Slight disadvantage/evenish:
    - Fox/Falco/Icies/Mario/Peach/Samus

    Doc ditto


    Evenish/Slight advantage:

    - DK/G&W/Ganon/Jiggly/Link/Luigi/Ness/Pikachu/Yoshi/Y.Link/Zelda

    Advantage:

    - Bowser/Kirby/m2/Roy/Pichu

    This list is 100% my opinion as of right now, but with input from the Doc boards as well as the other character boards we can hopefully clean up and elaborate on the content of this list further. So help us out!


    Tips on recovery from St. Viers:

     
  2. SmashMac

    SmashMac
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    Well I've teamed with my brother DaShizWiz before and he usually goes Fox or Falco. That usually works out well. But on a high-level of play like that when it's all pros. vs. pros. they each opponent will go after each opponent. However, when you're playing against people that aren't pros., they'll usually go against the best pro. playing. So I'm usually faced with people trying to just own Shiz and forget about me. I'm usually the stock holder as Doc. while my brother goes in as Fox or Falco, rapes, and then takes a stock when he needs. I honestly see Doc. able to hold his own against an opponent, but if 2 people are going after your partner you may have some issues 'cause Doc. isn't nearly as fast as say a Sheik and Marth player running after a Fox so be careful.

    I usually team with SheikSSBM and he plays Sheik and Luigi. Our Doc. and Sheik team is usually really good. It's pretty un-orthodox but generally with Doc. you can save your team-mate with pills, dair, bair to stage, and things of that like and it works pretty well. I've saved almost every one of my team-mates at least once or twice in tourney matches. As for Doc. and Luigi, that's generally just a who's the more skilled player match. Luigi will fight his opponent, and Doc. his.

    Usually for team strats., whenever I grab a person I know how to combo out of pretty dang well (Fox, Falco, CF ... etc.), I'd say to my team-mate "I got this." or something of the like and I'd do my combo. However, sometimes it's situational.

    I'd say the best team-mates are probably Sheik, Fox and Falco. I'd say Doc. is a neutral team-mate, but when coupled with someone who's better than you with mainly one of the three characters I mentioned above, Doc. is dangerous. You pretty much hold stock, cape edgeguards, gimp, etc. I can play Doc. though regardless of the situation I've trained myself to do that so I'm able to defend myself against 2 people or 1. Take my word for it Doc. is a good in teams, just know how to use him and play quick.

    I'd also like to point out that you should be very careful with pills. Always call the air-edgeguard (aerially edge-guarding) because of your cape and easy bair gimps, and let your team-mate guard the edge. Also, sometimes Doc. has to play the hit-and run game. By this I mean spacing against your opponent while he's trying to attack your team-mate or you. It's basically hitting with the safest attack so you wont potentially hit your team-mate.
     
  3. Dogysamich

    Dogysamich
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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    Doc in teams, hmm.

    I've never really liked the idea, but i do it all the time.

    __
    My big thing about doc in teams is that you need room to work with against certain characters, and it's hard to get it on certain people.

    This causes you to be the stock holder (unless you just get *****) because you cant really DO everything you normally would. Sure, you can still edgeguard well, and sure you can get finishes and whatnot. But its not every day that you'll get a few u.air juggles in without getting stopped by something. Same thing with chaingrabs (for the most part).

    ___
    As for "characters that go well with other characters", i've never bought into that. I mean, once you get to the lower end of the tier list, you can say low tiers cant play with themselves, but it all comes down to what your comfortable with.

    So if you ask me "What goes well with doc" I'll respond with something close to "Whatever his partner mains"

    I've teamed with fox, falco, marth, peach, sheik, ics, samus, jiggs, ganon, dk, g&w, and bowser. They were basically all the same, cause it was 1 person's main with another person's main.

    __

    As for doc/jiggs specifically, i've teamed with 2 different jiggs players on several occasions. Doc/jiggs works, but yes it does take some coordination. It doesnt take anything special on your part, just "Teaming with Jiggs 101" - if you get a grab, you hold and see if jiggs is coming to rest before you do ANYTHING, if you hear a puff go to sleep, you better be moving in that direction, stay on the good side of the wall unless you want to get steamrolled off the level with the rest of the trash, etc etc.

    For the jiggs, the one thing they have to realize is that your recovery blows, so they have to be willing to help you when they can. That makes it sooooo much easier.

    You also have to realize that, as doc, your job is to grab. The problem with this is, your grab range blows. Therefore, on some characters it's ridiculously hard to get grabs. The jiggs has to make up for this by getting rests anyway.

    The one big gripe i have about playing with a jiggs is that jiggs best stages are not good for you. Those being DL64 and KJ64. You can live with DL, but you better be takin a samus/link/yl to KJ64 if you're gunna pick it.

    FD works perfectly fine. PS is OK (ceiling can get a lil low for jiggs).

    Your jiggs partner will probably be screaming to ban YS as soon as they sit down, so scratch that off the list. Green greens isnt too hot.

    You'd be ok with brinstar.

    Rainbow Cruise/Pokefloats is iffy (i've never figured out if jiggs is good on moving stages).

    Oh, and campneria. That can be ok, but you have to actually PLAY campneria (well, you dont but jiggs does, she CANNOT sit on top of the fin)

    [/stagerant]

    All in all, doc/jiggs works.

     
  4. elvenarrow3000

    elvenarrow3000
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    I like how the whole Doc/Jigglypuff is summarized in "Try to help Jigglypuff, but you probably won't be able to much."

    Doc needs a lot of room to work his pills and combos and he needs his space to chaingrab and such which really doesn't happen in teams. The best people in teams are those who can run in, deal damage, then run out. Sheik and Fox and such have really fast KO moves and simple, quick combos that seem to fit that ideal.

    I think maybe Doc could work well with Falcon... although honestly it seems more like "Which character works with Doc" rather than "Which character does Doc work well with", if that makes sense.

    EDIT: Left out two periods.
     
  5. otg

    otg
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    Smash Master

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    Well I feel Doc is great in teams with his many finishers he can do at random, and pills control a lot of space, especially if your team mate is a character who's good with maneuvering with/around them. And while Fox and Sheik are obviously better at getting KO's than Doc... well... DUH! They're top tier for a reason, this thread is to discuss Doc.

    I agree with Dogy in that you should pair up with whoever your teammate is comfortable using, but my friends and I main multiple characters so the possibilities are endless! Doc and Falcon is pretty good, but Falcon needs lots of space to be effective and many team stages don't accommodate both of their advantages.
     
  6. Gea

    Gea
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    I prefer anyone who understands how pills work. Plus people with quick finishers (Falcon) work so well with utilizing pillstun. Doc's stubby body helps him stocktank better than he should with his recovery (its alot easier to avoid hits as Doc than say... DK).
     
  7. Dogysamich

    Dogysamich
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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    doc has some "finishers" if you will, that is true. You still wont be doing alot of that unless you have room or unless you find people who refuse to block f.airs or like to run into f.smashes.

    you dont always have time to get a clean throw->f.air

    Most of your kills will come from edgeguarding (or gimping when available).

    __

    If you have multiple characters, i guarentee you have one better than Doc. Not going on my doc bashing spree, but there are better people to kill with, and better people to hold stock with.


     
  8. elvenarrow3000

    elvenarrow3000
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    Liiike Marth!

    =P

    Actually I think Sheik and Fox are the best partners, and Falcon too.
     
  9. Dogysamich

    Dogysamich
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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    sheik and fox are good for the simple fact that they're good for teams period.

    capfal is another story
     
  10. otg

    otg
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    Smash Master

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    Uhh.. what about Dsmash? Easily spammable, and a fantastic killing move. I know there are better characters than Doc (thus why he's mid tier), I just enjoy using him and will probably try using him in teams, though I still have other characters to mix in if I don't do well.
     
  11. Gea

    Gea
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    Dsmash alone shouldn't be killing anyone. If it does they didn't DI or they were at waaay too high of a %. Dogy is pretty much right, most of the kills in teams come from bair edgeguards. Second are fair/fsmash kills because its easier to pull off both in teams.
     
  12. SmashMac

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    Yeah relying on dsmash kills is pretty scrubby and a very bad idea. The only real thing dsmash is exceptionally good at is getting the opponent of the stage for an easy edgeguard/edgehog. Kills usually come from grab to fair, spaced fairs, spaced fsmashes, and most of the time very easy capes and some bair gimps. Something else I find to do is using the nair. When you hold out that nair in a SH the sex will get stronger, and by the time it hits people usually aren't expecting it. I'd say nair kills for me sometimes as well. I'd say Doc.'s tactics in teams are pretty much hit-run, save your team-mate, and tanking stock.

    Side-Note: Don't ever spam dsmash in actually matches, you'll most likely lose. It's a good move and it really helps, but don't do it.
     
  13. elvenarrow3000

    elvenarrow3000
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    El oh el that could be contrued as sexual in an alternative context.

    /immature
     
  14. Gea

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    Oh yeah, definitely. Drifting sexes is especially useful in teams matches.

    I love when people jump off to try and save their teammate only to both get caped.
     
  15. otg

    otg
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    Smash Master

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    Yeah, spamming was the wrong word to use, don't get me wrong here the only thing I would spam are Pills. You guys are undervaluing this move though, it is a good killing move at higher percents that comes out faster than Fsmash and Fair.

    I don't spam Dsmash in matches, I typically use it to finish combos because Fsmash isn't as reliable in my experience.
     
  16. elvenarrow3000

    elvenarrow3000
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    Smash Master

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    I don't spam any move, I use it juuust enough =P

    Doc's fsmash makes me cry. It's worst when you predict that they'll roll through you and you fsmash in the other direction and it works except their roll through you puts them out of your fsmash range =(
     
  17. Dogysamich

    Dogysamich
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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    Dsmash isnt underrated, you just have much better options for flat out killing people.

    Dsmash is good for getting people off the stage to edgeguard, but if you're looking to flat out KILL somebody with downsmash, you're either

    1) letting them live to a ridiculous % to begin with

    or

    2) playing somebody who had retardedly BAD di. >.>
     
  18. SmashMac

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    Smash Lord

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    Yeah. The dsmash is good and it's a great connector to use in combos but don't rely on it to kill. Spamming it is wrong I'm glad you noticed otg. Dsmash is good for getting the opponent off the stage and ending combos in my honest opinion. And trust me the fsmash may have a small hitbox but if you use it right it's amazing. You could just WD backwards from the edge when the opponent is coming up and read his/her next move and use that fsmash. Also fsmash ends some SHFFLed combos. Angled fsmashes also help in certain situations. I wouldn't underestimate Doc's fsmash it's amazing you just gotta use it at the right time.
     
  19. otg

    otg
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    Smash Master

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    It just seems to situational. I noticed that for chainthrows you can get it in at around 70ish after an Uair, or follow up with a grab or something. I definitely use Dsmash more to finish combos than Fsmash, and I find it weird that the pros in the forum would disagree.
     
  20. Dogysamich

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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    if they're at like 70%, midweight or fastfaller, and your initially hit them with a u.air (and only 1 u.air), yeah you better d.smaah; they're going to fall too fast for f.smash.

    But if you're u.air juggling them or something, they're going to fall into a f.smash, and they have more of a chance to jump out of a d.smash since the hitbox is lower.


     
  21. SmashMac

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    Smash Lord

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    Well yeah otg you're right, fsmash is situational. By situational I mean depending on who you're fighting or where they're at on the stage are the two major factors. For instance, if I'm fighting a Fox/Falco/CF ... and I grab at 40%, I'll CG them 'till around 55% (right when you can't CG anymore), and if I'm near the right side of the stage, chances are if they're going to go towards the end of the stage to avoid giving you more room to CG them. Since they're moving towards the edge instead of towards the center of the stage, you could follow their DI with a uair, FF and then fsmash. Now they're either dead or if they DI'ed good are very far away from the stage, setting up an easy edge-guard. Now if they were to DI towards the center of the stage after your uthrow, then you could've done a uair to dsmash and that would've just racked up some extra damage, not expecting a kill or easy edgeguard. When you start playing very competetive and have to play on a professional level, you learn that just static combos won't always work and have to adapt to the situation and the predicament that you're in to make the right choices and own your opponent(s).
     
  22. Gea

    Gea
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    Most of the greatest players play off of reactions, not preset stuff anyways. There are exceptions and % wise setups, but for the whole...
     
  23. otg

    otg
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    Smash Master

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    Yeah I have noticed that they are sometimes able to jump out of the Dsmash, but more times than not it's my weapon of choice to end combos. I tend to use Fsmash for tech chasing more than anything else, nothing hurts more than teching into death.
     
  24. Dogysamich

    Dogysamich
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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    -looks up-

    Oh right right, the topic.

    ... doc in teams. :(

    "GO DO SOMETHING, IM BUSY HOLDING STOCK!"
    "WHY DONT YOU DO SOMETHING DOGY?!"
    "***** I GOT STUBBY ARMS, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO? GIVE THEM A HUG?!"
    "SURE WHY NOT?!"
    "*grab* OK!"
    --ping!--
    "WAY TO MISS A REST ****ER"

    XD
     
  25. HiIH

    HiIH
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    Smash Lord

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    I saw this happen. It was one of the funniest things I've seen.

    I think my team might have actually one that one <.<
     
  26. Dogysamich

    Dogysamich
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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    one that one? Come on albany.

    But no, i was actually referring to a match. XD
     
  27. otg

    otg
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    Smash Master

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    I updated the original post, just so you're all aware. So last night I got to go to a crack session, and got lots of team battles in. Most of my friends and I are evenly matched, and we we're switching up the teams a fair amount. Here are some thoughts:

    Doc+Jiggly RAPES. Didn't lose a single round, it's like Jiggly was built for teams. My friend saved my recovery once or twice, and is really good about taking advantage of grabs for rests and what not. Overall, really like this team, Fox doesn't hurt them nearly as bad as I figured he would.

    Doc+Falcon/Ganon is good as well, Falcon can handle pills pretty nicely, and is able to maneuver and KO a lot better than Doc. Doc ends up being a good stock tank with and getting those gimps in. Ganon might actually be better than Falcon, his gimp game is better and is a lot more powerful. I would control space with pills, and he would rush in with Fairs/Uairs: result? Win.

    The highlight of the night however, was a 7-2 comeback on Yoshi's. Doc/Marth vs. Marth/Jiggly. We were getting gimped left and right till we were down 5 stocks, but we came back, and got it down to Marth vs. Marth both at high percent. We lost, but 5 stock comebacks don't happen everyday. I just wish I had a camera so I could show all of you.

    ******

    So finally, I have a question for the rest of the Docs out there. What's the best way to edgeguard Sheik? She's easily my worst matchup, and I think a lot of it has to do with my inability to keep her OFF the stage. Her recovery is really misleading so it's hard to cape, so the only idea I have is to edgehog and than wait for her to land on the stage for a free Fair.... thats about it though.

    Thoughts?
     
  28. SmashMac

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    Ok the best way to edgeguard Sheik is this. When she's off the stage and trying to up+B back onto the stage, if you see she's about to land on the stage, just press towards the stage to do a neutral "get-up" animation, then fsmash her back off the stage. The rising fair from the ledge works well too, but fsmash works better and has more of a probability of killing. If it doesn't kill, she's far enough from the stage from an easy edgeguard (assuming she's high %). If she's not high %, just continue this until she is and until she's gone. Now, the other situation that could happen is she might just go straight above the ledge (if she thinks you might do the neutral edge get-up to a smash attack like everyone else does that knows how to edgeguard Sheik) and wait for you to get on the stage so she can then grab the ledge. In that case just stay on the edge and she's gone. Those are best ways to edgeguard/edgehog Sheik. I wouldn't really ever try to cape Sheik unless she's already above the ledge in the falling animation from her up+B. Also, if you're on the edge and she's not quite ready to up+B towards the stage because she's jumping towards it, make sure she's close enough and go out for a bair gimp. It always works because there are actually a few frames during the startup animation of Sheik's up+B that she's vulnerable to be in hit anyways so either way it will hit her, thereby setting up a very easy edgeguard/edgehog.
     
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  29. otg

    otg
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    Smash Master

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    Alright, fantastic advice SmashMac. My biggest problem is I try to play this fight like most of my other matchups where it's: bair's->pill or two-> cape-> repeat. I totally agree with your comments on this fight in your guide: this fight gets me REALLY frustrated, so I just need to learn to approach it differently. Thanks.
     
  30. SmashMac

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    Smash Lord

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    No problem man. I'm glad that guide is still helping people. I still feel the same way about everything I said in it.
     
  31. Dogysamich

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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    you can cape sheik, but that shouldnt be your first option.

    You can cape after she teleports, and even if she's going straight to the ledge.

    But again, that shouldnt be your first option, it should be your option on reaction if you're on the stage and nothing else will work.


     
  32. otg

    otg
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    Smash Master

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    SmashMac: do you plan on finishing the lower tiered characters for your guide? If you need any help out with the DK and Roy matchups. One of my crewmates tends to use both on a few occasions, and I played against a ranked DK player in semifinals at a tourney last year... and although I lost I learned a lot from the experience.
     
  33. Dogysamich

    Dogysamich
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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    dk: go spam pills, knock him away, repeat. If he is close to you, and turns his back; run. Run far, run fast

    roy: chaingrab, throw off stage, grab ledge. Rinse, repeat.

    Not that cut and dry, i know; but i want to feel important.
     
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  34. SmashMac

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    Smash Lord

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    Lolz Dogy.

    Yes otg, I do plan on finishing the guide. If you have AIM hit me up my SN is "Kurokawa Shun". I'm always up for information on the character matchups. Like always I'd give you credit for your assistance.
     
  35. Gea

    Gea
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    Dair actually works pretty well against DK if he's on the ground. Do it against his shield and it will probably stab from the top. Drop a uair to land and go from there.
     
  36. elvenarrow3000

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    Hitting DK's shield is just not fair.

    You guys have decent shields, you don't know what it's like to be DK or G&W!

    T_T
     
  37. Dogysamich

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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    You're right.

    I dont have a clue what it's like to be an ape with a ridiculously long foot and a broken grab.

    I dont have a clue what it's like to be a 2-d shadow with retarded disjointed hitboxes.

    Actually, i got the best one of all.

    I DONT HAVE A CLUE WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE A CHARACTER WITH A GOOD RECOVERY!

    o_o

    rawr
     
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  38. otg

    otg
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    Smash Master

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    Watch out for UpB while approaching DK from above, they send you flying and if your by the edge it can gimp you pretty easily. It can be done out of the shield as well, so watch yourself!
     
  39. Dogysamich

    Dogysamich
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    The Designated Hype Man!

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    Location:
    Warner Robins, Georgia

    up+b, u.tilt, u.smash, u.air. Yeah, DK can protect himself from above.
     
  40. Gea

    Gea
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    Smash Master

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    4,237
    Location:
    Houston, Texas
    Yeah but you shouldn't be landing on them anyways. Fulljump dair means your shoes should be against his cone head, meaning you can DJ away if it doesn't stab.

    Honestly though few DK's lightshield so it should stab more often than not. Man, if Doc had a better recovery and like Marth's grab range... *drools*
     

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