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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

Superw0rri0

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q8H9Ip96E0
Get I get some tips on improvement? Both in general and with the match up would be great.
I'll get back to you on this... probably later tonight when I have more time...
Keep in mind I'm not pro and i'm not that great in tournament.. but I know a lot about theory and doc as a character

I've been working on consistent ledgedashes and while trying to look for a consistent ledgehop setup, I found that Doc's double jump backwards shrinks Doc's hurtbox, since Doc curls up, while keeping his crazy ledgegrab box. I personally crack easily to pressure while on the ledge so I was wondering if using ledgedrop -> double jump backwards(then hold forwards) could be used as a safe ledgestall technique.
Both grab... good idea

 
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schmooblidon

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So this is awkward. I was watching some Eagle doc today and noticed he was doing the backwards jump edgehop regrab. So I wanted to lab it and see if it's actually better.





My opinion: regular with drift back I'd say is the best option, but also the hardest. Honestly though, I have been using regular with no drift for my entire doc career, and it's never let me down. I think it's more important to be consistent with maximum vertical distance, so one should focus on that first. This is good information though, and something to consider. Perhaps down the line, this will be essential tech.
 

Superw0rri0

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So I was looking at schmooblidon schmooblidon 's frame data thing and I noticed that up-b cancel is as fast as a shine. Both come out at frame 4. If there was a way to remove the after lag of up-b cancel Doc would have a shine. I feel like this is the holy grail of Doc tech... if someone can figure out a way to do it then Doc would have an amazing tool. But I have a feeling it's impossible... has anyone looked into this?

As it is up-b cancel is ok... if they don't di or di wrong we can follow up but if they di away then there is no follow up.
 
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cruised

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So I was looking at schmooblidon schmooblidon 's frame data thing and I noticed that up-b cancel is as fast as a shine. Both come out at frame 4. If there was a way to remove the after lag of up-b cancel Doc would have a shine. I feel like this is the holy grail of Doc tech... if someone can figure out a way to do it then Doc would have an amazing tool. But I have a feeling it's impossible... has anyone looked into this?

As it is up-b cancel is ok... if they don't di or di wrong we can follow up but if they di away then there is no follow up.
There doesn't seem to be any horizontal movement from Up-B cancel so I'd rule out the possibility of ledge-cancelling the landing lag. But I have found that Doc can ledgecancel on the top platform of FoD with his regular Up-B, though the precise angling required to do it makes this a very rare option.

It feels like I can only contribute niche options to Doc discussion but at my skill level it's the best that I can contribute since I seem to know more gimmicks than actual fundamental skills. What do you guys think of using jab cancelling for repeated jabs as I've seen some Samus players do? After all, Doc's Jab1 ends after 15 frames, which is quicker than Samus's jab. Also, jab is such an important part of Doc's close range game that adding another mixup to landing jabs on shield or hit could improve the possibility of getting to the bigger punishes(Dsmash and grab).

I also did a little more practicing with the instant double jump platform warp on battlefield and found that if you double jumped backwards into the edge of the platform, Doc would start falling immediately after reaching the platform. If someone could do that consistently along with fastfalling after edgecancelling, they could use it as a pseudo-DJC since Doc starts falling before he normally would if he did a regular fullhop. This is just really situational stuff but I hope Doc's will be able to utilize this info in some way in the future.

Here are two NIL tricks. For battlefield, Doc can double jump to the side platforms after wavedashing/wavedashing off the ledge(facing towards stage) and get a NIL or a waveland on the platform. Maybe one day, with this trick, Doc can do what Smuckers did against OTG that one time but on BF. For Dreamland, Doc can run offstage and double jump backward onto the side platform and get a NIL or a waveland. Again, it's small stuff but this the best that I can contribute at the moment.
 

schmooblidon

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So I was looking at schmooblidon schmooblidon 's frame data thing and I noticed that up-b cancel is as fast as a shine. Both come out at frame 4. If there was a way to remove the after lag of up-b cancel Doc would have a shine. I feel like this is the holy grail of Doc tech... if someone can figure out a way to do it then Doc would have an amazing tool. But I have a feeling it's impossible... has anyone looked into this?

As it is up-b cancel is ok... if they don't di or di wrong we can follow up but if they di away then there is no follow up.
In terms of cancelling it where ever you please, I highly doubt there is a feasible way. But I won't stop looking.

The ways I do know to cancel it are either a forced aerial state, or a push into ledge cancel.

A forced aerial state is when the floor beneath you disappears. You can do this on Pstadium windmill, or on randall. It's exactly like how people taunt cancel with it.

As soon as you Up-b, you overwrite any previous velocity, and have a horizontal velocity of 0.003 on frame 1, 0.003 on frame 2, and -0.006 on frame 3. In comparison, doc's run speed is 1.500, so this velocity is so stupidly small that it's basically zero. Even if you wanted to use this tiny amount of velocity to edgecancel, you couldnt because the backwards movement on frame 3 negates any forward movement.

But you can still be pushed by another collision box, the obvious example is another player. But then there is another problem, you cannot edgecancel this when facing your back to the ledge. So you must be facing your back to whatever will be pushing you. I could probably demonstrate this in a tas video, but it's not a situation you will ever encounter and not something you can take advantage of.

SD Remix has halfed the upb landing lag, so you can play around with that if you wish. I recommend 20XX v4.0 for this, as it has sd remix characters as a built in toggle on the char select screen (like how it does for PAL and costumes), use Dpad Left to enable it, and the portrait will turn purple.
 
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Superw0rri0

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cruised cruised what's NIL?

schmooblidon schmooblidon I'm trying think of some sort of input to reduce the landing lag but I can't think of anything logical. Does Doc get off the ground during the up-b cancel on frame 4 or something? I'm also guessing there is no other way to cancel the up-b

Edit: I just watched the SD Remix Doc video.... why isn't this in tournaments :crying:
 
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Bolt_Master_Ampharos

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Given as this is a general discussion thread, I am assuming I can ask here. How should Doc be playing the neutral? I often see shroomed use up air to approach, and dash dance grab. Is that the crux of his neutral game?
 

schmooblidon

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cruised cruised what's NIL?

schmooblidon schmooblidon I'm trying think of some sort of input to reduce the landing lag but I can't think of anything logical. Does Doc get off the ground during the up-b cancel on frame 4 or something? I'm also guessing there is no other way to cancel the up-b

Edit: I just watched the SD Remix Doc video.... why isn't this in tournaments :crying:
No-Impact Land

I think i've figured out why upb cancels work.On frame 4 doc goes into a stage of the up-b, that is very similar but different, to when moving. Mario doesn't have this stage, it only has the little startup, then the stage of doc's upb on frame 3 (where he is invincible). mario has this for 4 frames. Then on frame 7 both characters start moving.

During the doc unique stage, the angle has already been decided and you gain a very tiny amount of vertical velocity depending on the direction you held on frame 3. If in neutral you will gain none, if you angled behind, you get downward velocity, if you angled forward, you get upward velocity. When you do the second method of upbcancels, where you end up turning around, you angle forwards, and then reverse the upb. So now you have an upb with a backwards angle, so it gets downward vertical velocity. This is also the input for a reverse extended up-b when in the air.

I imagine they just changed the order of some of the attacks functions when copying from Mario. Mario decides whether to reverse or not on frame 7, doc decides on frame 4. Mario decides the angle on frame 2-6, doc decides on 2-3.

There is no way to tell if Mario doesn't move vertical after his angle is decided, because if he does, it is only added to the massive amount of vertical velocity he is now getting from the proper movement. Considering velocities based on angle is calculated for the proper movement, it'd make sense that this little bit of vertical velocity is a part of the bigger velocity gain function. Dunno why it's left there, perhaps an oversight or maybe someone wanted it to be able to cancel.

I'm not sure whether doc goes airborne on frame 4, his ECB (Environmental Collision Box - the collision diamond) definitely has the characteristics of a newly airborne ECB. But if you up-b on a moving platform, you will move with the plat until you start properly moving. I'm not sure if it's a requirement to be airborne for landing, their may not be any other attack that gives downward velocity when performing on the ground (ill have a look).edit: When hit during this unique doc stage, you go into a airborne only damage state, so I guess that means it's changing at least one airborne responsible flag. edit2: dno why I thought you moved with the platform, looked again and it's very clear you dont. Doc definitely goes airborne on frame 4, but he doesn't actually travel above the surface, it's just part of the ECB pattern to rise upward on frame 4. But because whenever you go airborne, the bottom of the ECB is locked at the base position for 9 frames. This is why you need to doublejump to platform up-b cancel, as it maintains the ECB lock long enough for it to be at the base position on upb frame 4. If you upb when airborne without the ECB lock, the ECB is lifted up on frame 4, so it becomes impossible to use the tiny vertical velocity afterwards to land.

I'll have a think about ways to abuse this

edit3: During the startup of docs airborne upb (frames 1-3) and marios (frames 1-6), there is a large downward movement (this is why marios is worse, because he moves downward for longer at the start). If you start a upb just above the ground, you will move downward onto the ground, which normally is the trigger for landing. But there are many action states that can't be cancelled by landing (think tornado), it's only when in the next stage of the up-b you are able to land.
 
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Superw0rri0

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Given as this is a general discussion thread, I am assuming I can ask here. How should Doc be playing the neutral? I often see shroomed use up air to approach, and dash dance grab. Is that the crux of his neutral game?
There are several different factors to Docs neutral game: your opponent, the stage, but most importantly your play style.

There is a right and wrong way to play Doc but I believe that Doc is an open ended character.

Shroomed has a more aggressive Doc and to be honest I disagree with some of his choices at times. But I can't say much since he has the best Doc in the world :p

I have a more defensive Doc and a lot of my damage comes from movement and pills. I like to approach with n-air, u-air, and pill mix-ups and space with b-air and f-tilt. But it depends on the match up. F-tilts and n-airs don't work well against spacies until 40+ percent so I focus more on spaced damage and grabs until they get to a nice percent. Marth I play the spacing game. Shiek is basically "don't get grabbed". Puff I space with pills and approach with u-air until I can kill. Peach I have no experience yet but SmashMac likes to approach with d-air.

In the end you have to figure it out for yourself... When I studied Shroomed I found that my play style was different than his even when in my mind I was trying to copy what he did.

There are certain ways to play different match ups but in the end it's up to you.

Instead of looking for "this is how to play Doc" look for "what are Doc's options" and implement them into your play style. After that, the rest is up to you.

Hope this helps :)
 
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Trashed

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What's the best way to recover as doc? I've noticed that Shroomed uses his pills offstage, does that help?
 

Superw0rri0

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What's the best way to recover as doc? I've noticed that Shroomed uses his pills offstage, does that help?
Well first you shouldn't ever be hit off stage... obviously that's incredibly difficult and requires perfect play... even the gods can't do this.

If you do get hit off stage the best recovery with Doc is good DI. After that his recovery isn't bad but easily gimped. if you're way off stage first I would cape then tornado forward then double jump and finally up b. I'm not 100% sure on this but what i do know is that you want to tornado before you double jump. Why? Tornado can leave you too low before you up-b and tornado can get you gimped if you do it too close to the edge where your opponent is waiting for you, leaving you looking like a sitting duck. Not to mention tornado removes all forward momentum so use double jump to get it back. Also don't forget that Doc has one of the best if not the best sweet spot in the game. That grab box literally teleports Doc.

Shroomed uses pills to protect his recovery... it doesn't make your recovery better it just helps keep people off you. You should only ever throw 1 or 2 pills.... maybe three. Use 1 pill if you are close to the stage. If you are far away in a top corner you can do 2 pills. Maybe 3 if you throw 2 pills then double jump and pill again... I have never done it myself so I don't know. One thing I see that SmashMac likes to do is pill away from the stage so his back is to the stage. Why does he do this? So he can b-air too protect his recovery. If you don't want to turn away from the stage then you can use d/n/u-air.

Hope this helps :)
 
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JipC

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What's the best way to recover as doc? I've noticed that Shroomed uses his pills offstage, does that help?
Another thing that might help is to save your DJ. I know this is totally unrealistic, but if we eliminate the opponent, Doc with his downB + DJ + UpB can make it back from pretty decent ranges. Obviously the problem is saving these options (especially DJs) and not getting intercepted.
But yeah, throwing pills down is another good tactic, something I've been forgetting to do recently
 

JipC

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I seem to remember there being a table for Doc's dthrow to fair and the percentages for different characters, anyone have it? I cant find it
 

Superw0rri0

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Yoooooo schmooblidon schmooblidon I've said this so many times but you are literally a god! That calculator is so fricken beast! I played that for 10min and already learned new things about doc... Particularly his fair and upsmash... I didn't know there were 2 different knockbacks on fair and I was wondering why up-smash was so wonky... I knew about the late hitbox but I didn't know the two on the clean hitbox..

My only question is... for example on fair... there is hitbox id0 and id1... which one is which? This goes for the other attacks.


Also for some features that I would like to see... at some point I'd like to see character's standing or jumping... could help figure out combos...
Yo... I can totally see this turning into an animated simulator... that's a lot of work though...
 
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schmooblidon

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Thanks man, I am glad you have enjoyed it.

For both the clean and late hitboxes of Doc's upsmash. ID0 will only hit airborne opponents, and ID1 will only hit grounded opponents. They both occupy the exact same space, so there are no differences in the attack range.

ID0 is pretty straight forward, just looking at the clean hitboxes. Damage:16, Angle:83, KBGrowth:95, BaseKB:35

ID1 is almost the same but with one key difference Damage:16, Angle:259, KBGrowth:95, BaseKB:35

Having an angle of 259 makes it a spike, and if you place the trajectory pointer on the calculator into the air, you will see exactly this. But because it only ever hits grounded opponents, it creates an effect like a Falcon dairing a grounded opponent.

At very low percents, the opponent won't even leave the ground, as it requires 80 KB to pop an opponent up. When 80 KB is reached, all the vertical knockback is transferred upward and is reduced by 20%

But very importantly, hitstun is not affected by this 20% KB reduction. So what happens is you get an attack that doesn't launch them as high up, but leaves them in hitstun for just as long, making it a create combo tool.

Fair's 2 hitboxes is also news to me lol.

Red is ID0 and Orange is ID1. So Red is the more powerful hitbox.
 
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Zonak

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I looked up the fair values for those interested.

ID0 (Armpit): DMG: 17 | BKB: 50 | KBG: 100 | Angle: 60

ID1 (Fist): DMG: 16 | BKB: 40 | KBG: 100 | Angle: 60
 

Superw0rri0

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Red is ID0 and Orange is ID1. So Red is the more powerful hitbox.
The thing is... I was doing some testing and the knockback on both hitboxes were pretty much the same.. however when I hit the later part of doc's fair was when the knockback would change.... so I'm not sure on that

edit:
I looked up the fair values for those interested.

ID0 (Armpit): DMG: 17 | BKB: 50 | KBG: 100 | Angle: 60

ID1 (Fist): DMG: 16 | BKB: 40 | KBG: 100 | Angle: 60
so arm pit has more knockback???
 
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BCllWX

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The thing is... I was doing some testing and the knockback on both hitboxes were pretty much the same.. however when I hit the later part of doc's fair was when the knockback would change.... so I'm not sure on that

edit:


so arm pit has more knockback???
At it's base, yes. Who knew?
 

Triforce of Love

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Question about Doc's recovery and Down-B: When I am recovering back to the stage (typically from the outer top corners because of DI) when is it useful to use his Down-B? Specifically I am thinking that because it gives you just a little bit of height, it could be used as soon as possible, aka right out of stun while i am in the top outer corner, because it is punishable if you are too close to the stage and your opponent. However, I also feel like it also takes away some of your horizontal momentum, and thus should NOT be used too far away, so maybe you should save it until you have already closed the gap between you and the stage. Any advice from people with knowledge/ experience? Thanks!
 

Superw0rri0

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Here's the thing with down B.... if you're really good at it you can get some good reovery out of it... but there are two problems:
1: If you are too close to the stage it leaves you open to get attacked by a b-air or shine or whatever
2. After using down-b you lose all forward momentum

So taking these into consideration it is best to use down-b as earlier as possible and following it up with a double jump...
However... in some situations when you are getting really close to the killzone, double jump is the only way to continue living... also... pill double jump pill is a good way to protect your recovery....

so here's what I like to do....
1. double jump first and save up-b for when I get closer but not to close
2. if I have the room, down-b first then double jump
3. if I have the room, protect my recovery with pills

But honestly... when it comes down to it... Doc's recovery sucks... it's mostly linear and easily exploited.... there are tricks and mix ups like up-b extension and air dodging instead of up-b but those can only get you so far... the best recovery is to not get hit :p

speaking of up-b extension.... schmooblidon schmooblidon I've learned it and using it XD
 

Mr.Lemon

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Question about Doc's recovery and Down-B: When I am recovering back to the stage (typically from the outer top corners because of DI) when is it useful to use his Down-B? Specifically I am thinking that because it gives you just a little bit of height, it could be used as soon as possible, aka right out of stun while i am in the top outer corner, because it is punishable if you are too close to the stage and your opponent. However, I also feel like it also takes away some of your horizontal momentum, and thus should NOT be used too far away, so maybe you should save it until you have already closed the gap between you and the stage. Any advice from people with knowledge/ experience? Thanks!
You want to mix it up. By starting your recovery with a down B you can slow down the momentum that is sending you away from the stage. If you use it close to the stage you can get hit easier like you said. Or use it after a double jump, basically there isn't a right or wrong, just mix it up and use it when it's safe.


Here's the thing with down B.... if you're really good at it you can get some good reovery out of it... but there are two problems:
1: If you are too close to the stage it leaves you open to get attacked by a b-air or shine or whatever
2. After using down-b you lose all forward momentum

So taking these into consideration it is best to use down-b as earlier as possible and following it up with a double jump...
However... in some situations when you are getting really close to the killzone, double jump is the only way to continue living... also... pill double jump pill is a good way to protect your recovery....

so here's what I like to do....
1. double jump first and save up-b for when I get closer but not to close
2. if I have the room, down-b first then double jump
3. if I have the room, protect my recovery with pills

But honestly... when it comes down to it... Doc's recovery sucks... it's mostly linear and easily exploited.... there are tricks and mix ups like up-b extension and air dodging instead of up-b but those can only get you so far... the best recovery is to not get hit :p

speaking of up-b extension.... schmooblidon schmooblidon I've learned it and using it XD
Doc's recovery in my opinion is really good. But that's for another day, you don't want to use down B as soon as possible all the time, if they are hanging on the edge and don't have invincibility I'll kill them with a down B near the stage. Again, I'd say just mix it up but be safe with it.
 

Superw0rri0

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Well I'm just going to leave this picture here...






I think you guys can tell what this means... I've decided to drop Doc and main Sheik... Doc will still be my secondary and I'll still use him from time to time for certain match ups (like Falcon and Sheik (I hate dittos)). Also I'll still be active on this forum to pitch in. I'm still going to be practicing and messing around with him but I'll be putting more time into Sheik

This isn't "officially" permanent but so far it's looking like it.

Explanation:
It's not that I think Doc is bad or that he can't win... it's simply that I feel Sheik fits my play style more. I always found myself trying to imitate Shiek with Doc, especially when it came to edge guards and punishes. I played Doc but I had a Sheik mentality. It makes sense because Mew2King is my biggest inspiration (every time he gets one of his edge guards I kreygasm...) and I've always been trying to in some way imitate the way he plays Sheik. With all of that together, Sheik simply always me to do the things that I want where was with Doc I felt there was a wall in my way. When it comes down to it, this is a personal choice and not a "Sheik is better than Doc so I'll switch to Sheik because I want to win". Plus I think Sheik is really fun.

Anyway... this is not to discourage you guys from playing Doc. KEEP PLAYING DOC DAMMIT! HE'S GOOD! Just requires a lot of work. Don't think for one second Doc can't give you results!

Pill on my friends!
 
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Capt. Tin

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NNID
Capt.Tin
This thread hasn't been active in forever.

When counter-picking stages, what stages should I be going to? Been kind of lost on this as a whole.
 

Cyphus

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whoa. this place still exists!
I took a break from smash, moved from LA to TX and ended up taking another long hiatus. I started attending some local weeklies and got the rust shaken off, but still have some catching up to the top locals (MT - marth, JF - sheik). My last 3 placings were 4th/25, 5th/28, 5th/26 - so I'm at least being consistent.
Austin TX has a lot Falcos so its a good opportunity to really revisit the matchup and work on it.

I had to cut out a lot of fat and dramatics from my guide - it was pretty cringe worthy after 10 years or whatever lol.

It doesn't seem this place is too active, but wanted to pop in and say there's still an old school Doc trying.
I won't be on here really, but anyones welcome to reach out- if for whatever reason! bd71186@gmail.com
 
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Palika

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whoa. this place still exists!
I took a break from smash, moved from LA to TX and ended up taking another long hiatus. I started attending some local weeklies and got the rust shaken off, but still have some catching up to the top locals (MT - marth, JF - sheik). My last 3 placings were 4th/25, 5th/28, 5th/26 - so I'm at least being consistent.
Austin TX has a lot Falcos so its a good opportunity to really revisit the matchup and work on it.

I had to cut out a lot of fat and dramatics from my guide - it was pretty cringe worthy after 10 years or whatever lol.

It doesn't seem this place is too active, but wanted to pop in and say there's still an old school Doc trying.
I won't be on here really, but anyones welcome to reach out- if for whatever reason! bd71186@gmail.com
Nice, people still actually post in here.
I've freed up some time, so I'll start posting in the Doc threads a bit more.
I only play about twice a week to to keep in shape.
But I still know a few things.
Both of you should probably join the doc discord chat as it's way more active than smashboards. This link should work (i only think for 24 hours tho) https://discord.gg/KpUST

otherwise maybe this? https://discordapp.com/channels/167688343080009729/167690845393256448
 

Audos

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Well I'm just going to leave this picture here...






I think you guys can tell what this means... I've decided to drop Doc and main Sheik... Doc will still be my secondary and I'll still use him from time to time for certain match ups (like Falcon and Sheik (I hate dittos)). Also I'll still be active on this forum to pitch in. I'm still going to be practicing and messing around with him but I'll be putting more time into Sheik

This isn't "officially" permanent but so far it's looking like it.

Explanation:
It's not that I think Doc is bad or that he can't win... it's simply that I feel Sheik fits my play style more. I always found myself trying to imitate Shiek with Doc, especially when it came to edge guards and punishes. I played Doc but I had a Sheik mentality. It makes sense because Mew2King is my biggest inspiration (every time he gets one of his edge guards I kreygasm...) and I've always been trying to in some way imitate the way he plays Sheik. With all of that together, Sheik simply always me to do the things that I want where was with Doc I felt there was a wall in my way. When it comes down to it, this is a personal choice and not a "Sheik is better than Doc so I'll switch to Sheik because I want to win". Plus I think Sheik is really fun.

Anyway... this is not to discourage you guys from playing Doc. KEEP PLAYING DOC DAMMIT! HE'S GOOD! Just requires a lot of work. Don't think for one second Doc can't give you results!

Pill on my friends!
Stop lying to us, we all know you solo main Pichu.
 

toophat

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as someone who's practically beginning, i've gravitated to the doc for some reason and want to know what some good easier combos there are so i can work on a basic game plan as doc.
 

Audos

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Austintown, Ohio
as someone who's practically beginning, i've gravitated to the doc for some reason and want to know what some good easier combos there are so i can work on a basic game plan as doc.
Learn how to move around well first, like wavedashes, dash dancing, and wavelands. Then learn how to jump cancel grabs since it makes them much better. You can look up good doc players in real games and see what things they usually connect. Like I know docs can connect ariels off of grabs and tech chase some characters. Learning how to shoot your pills good so that it can help you approach is nice too.

Doc is a really fun character to
play. Melee has a lot of depth so good luck with it!
 

toophat

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 27, 2016
Messages
8
Location
Ontario
Learn how to move around well first, like wavedashes, dash dancing, and wavelands. Then learn how to jump cancel grabs since it makes them much better. You can look up good doc players in real games and see what things they usually connect. Like I know docs can connect ariels off of grabs and tech chase some characters. Learning how to shoot your pills good so that it can help you approach is nice too.

Doc is a really fun character to
play. Melee has a lot of depth so good luck with it!
sweet ill work on it
 

VGmasta

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
1,252
Location
West Palm Beach, FL + the Doc Boards!!
as someone who's practically beginning, i've gravitated to the doc for some reason and want to know what some good easier combos there are so i can work on a basic game plan as doc.
I started out this game using plumber Mario, then gravitated to Dr Mario. So you're kinda following my footsteps. Doc has decent movement and he's a lot of fun to use once you get used to how he plays.

Movement is probably the number one thing you wanna pick up on. But you'll need to learn how to wavedash really proficiently if you haven't already. That application is also related to wavelanding and ledgedashing.

As far as some basic combos go, most of the simple combo starters are n-air, up-air, and up-tilt. So, you want to learn the timing and ranges of all your attacks. Lots of the combos involve getting grabs, so that you can d-throw and follow up with some attacks. Some of the fastfallers require you to upthrow them at low and mid percents in order to combo them.

Here are some good starter videos to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp_qhEx3zKE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnGV4zc1j_A&index=12&list=PL6F51EAACE5117F9B
 

Ten of Nine

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
172
Location
South
Just thought I'd post these excellent videos in case anyone missed them -

posted a week ago by Zer0 from Japan, they are an in depth overview and update on high level Doc Tech (debug and 20XX)


 

Screenboss

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Messages
1
Hey everyone, decently seasoned doc player here but recently I've been struggling against good Ganondorfs, more so than his better counter-part falcon. I was wondering what tips anyone might have, troubles I have are getting in close and being able to get only a couple grabs in on him, edge guarding isn't too difficult when I manage to get him off stage but it takes a lot of work for me to build up percent when I struggle to be able to approach him.
 

VGmasta

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
1,252
Location
West Palm Beach, FL + the Doc Boards!!
Hey everyone, decently seasoned doc player here but recently I've been struggling against good Ganondorfs, more so than his better counter-part falcon. I was wondering what tips anyone might have, troubles I have are getting in close and being able to get only a couple grabs in on him, edge guarding isn't too difficult when I manage to get him off stage but it takes a lot of work for me to build up percent when I struggle to be able to approach him.
The key to the Ganon matchup is paying attention to what he is doing to keep you out of range AND knowing the ways around whatever he is doing.

You're not gonna be able to grab a Ganon that's constantly moving around and swinging at you. You have to make Ganon respect your offense enough to get him to sit in shield before you can connect any grabs.

What specifically are some of the things Ganon is doing to keep you out of range?
 
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