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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

Dogysamich

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Yeah but you shouldn't be landing on them anyways. Fulljump dair means your shoes should be against his cone head, meaning you can DJ away if it doesn't stab.

Honestly though few DK's lightshield so it should stab more often than not. Man, if Doc had a better recovery and like Marth's grab range... *drools*
we aint talking about the DK's that dont lightshield, those are the DKs that get steamrolled anyways.

We're talkin about **** that beats the Bums out there. >.>
 

elvenarrow3000

Smash Master
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Doctor Mario has better recovery than Roy... you could play Roy and have... almost Marth's grab range.
 

Gea

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Actually very few players lightshield, even less since Brawl came out. Even DK and GW players. Besides, DK players like not lightshielding if they think they can get a grab out of it. Shieldgrabbing is alot harder when lightshield pushes you back.
 

Dogysamich

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Actually very few players lightshield, even less since Brawl came out. Even DK and GW players. Besides, DK players like not lightshielding if they think they can get a grab out of it. Shieldgrabbing is alot harder when lightshield pushes you back.
I'll say this again.

Good DKs and good G&W's lightshield.

Yes, DK is less likely, and will just angle the shield, but they do it.


 

captainlukey

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i agrree whole heartedly samich...
good dk and gw players do, but as a whole there has been a dumming down of our players since brawl came out and i believe that alot of people also have forsaken the light shield and hopes for shieldgrabbing...
i just think that ever since the era of ken, bombsoldier and silent wolf, our playing style has changed because if you get me, the light shield was part of there era... whereas these days its all about speed and flashiness (especially now that brawl is out...)
oh well feel free to argue this point with me it just seems everyone lost precision somewhere along the way...
 

Matux

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To topic. His recovery is to short to helpt savely only the pills can help good. not rly a team character.
 

Gea

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Why is that? The only thing I can think of is since Luigi is so slippery, he can't get a shieldgrab in most of the time, so why not light shield and get away from the pressure?

What else could there be?
You can't even pressure Luigi's shield if he lightshields. It allows him to get off of platforms and get under you too. Only times this is bad I can think of are against Marth and getting hit off of a platform into tipper range, off of a platform near the edge with Fox and shine, and against Falco on FD.
 
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Why is that? The only thing I can think of is since Luigi is so slippery, he can't get a shieldgrab in most of the time, so why not light shield and get away from the pressure?

What else could there be?
So you don't try to aerial and land behind him. Nobody lands in front of shields with aerials lol.
 

Dogysamich

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man, just got back from a tourney. That **** was hilarious. Too many f'n good people.

Funny teams story though.

So my partner (Alpha Gundam) and I Cp corneria, cause we're too lazy to think of something else. We're playing kaze and kage from canada, and somewhere in the match, alpha is getting edgeguarded off the front of greatfox. You hear the lasers power up, and as soon as he starts falling to his death, the lasers go off and blast him in the face.

AT THE EXACT SAME MOMENT, i get d.thrown and DI inward (towards the fin) an arwing comes over the fin, blasts me in the face. I land on the arwing, attempt to tech and get off, but am promptly carried to my doom.

Alpha is like "**** i got blasted" and looks at himself on the respawn platform. He looks over and sees my dorky *** doc up there and say "WAIT WHAT THE **** HAPPENED TO YOU"

it was so f'n hilarious

_____

*yawn*

So im up, so here's my 2nd funny story.

I'm sittin in first round pools playin Iori ("Mewtwo" main, he's really an all-character main).

He looks at me and is like "So whatchya banning", probably expecting the usual. But outta nowhere, I have a complete brainfat. I sit there staring at the tv like "I know good and well I should be banning something against him, but I have no clue what it is...." So i reply "Dreamland", cause im thinkin "maybe it's that cause i dont want this floaty ****er living forever" .... XD.

So he bans something, i forget what it is, that's irrelevant to the story.

We start the match, hit the random button. First map? BATTLEFIELD. I facepalm so fast it's hilarious. Although I had enough sense to not get battlefielded, i lose the round, 1 stocked.

"So where we going?" Well, i had got thrown off the top of battlefield twice, and I know he would do it more if i took him to a small stage, i was getting grabbed too much. I'm looking for a big stage. Kj64? Na, that's a terrible stage for me, and he can just come through the floor w/ no lag anyway. Dreamland? Banned it, throw it out. OH I KNOW, JUNGLE JAPES.

Well, iori apparently has a vendetta against this stage (which is ironic if you know him, and even more ironic if you know m2) so he goes fox. After a short flurry, I three stock him the river three stocks him.

He looks at me and says "MAN WTF IS UP WITH COUNTERPICKING THOSE GAY STAGES" (jokingly, but again, if you know iori, this is ironic), so he's like "Ya know what, we're going to Corneria".

Oh this story gets funnier.

I dont think too much of it at the point, I like corneria, I really didnt mind it against space animals since i could chaingrab them there to some degree.

But then.... it started.

Through a hail of insults, racial slurs, brawl tactics (read: projectile spam + camping), and other events, we have the third match. I spend 6 minutes trying to chase down a runaway fox who's throwing as many f-bombs at me as lasers. It's hilarious.

At the 2 minute mark, i have 150% on my last stock. Iori has 2 stock low%. He looks at me and says "Man, ya know what? **** it, ima run the clock out."

At this point, i know he means it, but he's not ready for what I have. So i look at him and say "Dont worry, you're not running the clock out"

So iori proceeds to flat out RUN from me. He runs and laser camps, but makes no effort whatsoever to actually kill me. Back and forth and back and forth the full length of corneria like 5 or 6 times.

I did manage to catch him once and take one stock, but ultimately i couldnt catch a runaway fox, although I kept trying to coax him to come to me.

IT'S STILL GETS FUNNIER THOUGH.

So with 15 seconds left, he starts laughing and saying "haha im running the clock out and there's nothing you're gunna do about it!" I grin, look at him and say "Dude, i told you you're not getting a timeout"

It's all about me having fun, not him.

So with 10 seconds left, i run to the front of great fox and jump on the gun. He's scremain "NO DONT DO THAT, THAT'S GAY MAN, COME ON"

But the gun doesnt fire.

So what do you hear through the venue?


"5....4....3.......DOH!!!"

That's right, i ran the **** off that gun and SDd.

So in the end, i may have lost the battle, but atleast i won the war, won the set, got chicken.

Well, atleast I got my fun and the game i needed. :)
 

Dogysamich

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pretty epic.

I felt like i didnt really play so hot, and i got alot of gifts from people, enough to get games i needed that i didnt really earn.

I wish i woulda got 1 more to get outta 2nd round pools. 1 win or 3 less losses away.

I stayed up all night day 1 playin mario with DP (a GA mario). We played doc vs mario for a few hours, then we got 2 more people over to play teams. HANDIN OUT A FRESH BOWL OF MARIOS!

Then i stayed up and played low-tier doubles. That **** was so funny. Sitting up at 6 in the morning yelling about kirby being a defender of justice and yelling for my sidekick to come save me while m2k is teaching people how to lightshield ->shine edgeguard was epic.

Then we played some "Guy on the right" for a few hours till people woke up. Actually, i think we WOKE people up with that.

I actually didnt stay to watch finals (it was a split anyway). Didnt watch teams finals. Heck, after watching DP vs Greenmario in some mario ditto friendlies (which was right next to the team finals tv), i walked off and played some Melty Blood.

Didnt watch any crews, either. I was downstairs with some GA people joking about a buncha things.

I actually didnt see alot of stuff, i figured "if it was really important, i'll be recorded"

-----

I do have one more funny doc story, and this one is actually good for me.

So, im playing my set vs kage (canadian ganon. Oh dear god he spaces too **** good). Game 2, i take him to pokemon stadium, cause he banned FD and well, i figured weird stages wouldnt help me cause he just flatout beat my *** game 1.

So i kill him and he's on his last stock. I have the lead with 2 stocks. I'm feelin kinda good but im thinkin "watch me drop a stock to something dumb", cause i have a curse like that.

So he drops off the platform, i run away, blah blah blah. Get a grab near the edge, backthrow off the stage; bob money. BUT! I think he's not far enough from the stage, so he'll just jump back.

So i think "Wait, i have 2 stock, he has 1, i have an idea that's crazy enough to work". ... so i just keep backairing him. Completely off the screen. Jiggs style. We both laughed, and i smiled cause that was the greatest idea i've ever had in my life.

Then he took me to brinstar and made the lava go away. :( T'was a fun set though
 

otg

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Nice, I'm going to try the "Super Bob Money" the next time I get the chance too. I need to get money/transportation ASAP so I can start going to these tournies.

Ok, so now to bring this back to some Q&A: more questions for counter picking.

Falco: SmashMacs guide claims you should counterpick at FoD, while the Stage Counter Pick list says you should Ban that stage..... Mixed messages lol? What's the best option? FD isn't a good choice, although it is chaingrab world Falco just does a lot better there and has a lot of maneuverability there.

Peach: What's the best way to edgeguard her? Seems kind of similar to stopping Sheik in that you want her to be vulnerable right above the ledge, but she has so many more options I'm unsure what the best way to keep her off.
 

SmashMac

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Yeah the reason I put FoD in my guide as a counterpick there is because the rotating platforms screw up Falco's SH game with all his SHLs, SH dairs, etc. He can still combo you but since you don't totally rely on SHing all the time I put FoD as a counterpick stage vs. Falco as Doc.
 

otg

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Yeah the reason I put FoD in my guide as a counterpick there is because the rotating platforms screw up Falco's SH game with all his SHLs, SH dairs, etc. He can still combo you but since you don't totally rely on SHing all the time I put FoD as a counterpick stage vs. Falco as Doc.
True, very good point. I've had more luck there than on FD, I just wasn't sure whether or not I should use that stage because last night I counterpicked a Falco to FD and got owned. I'll try FoD next time.
 

Dogysamich

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Nice, I'm going to try the "Super Bob Money" the next time I get the chance too. I need to get money/transportation ASAP so I can start going to these tournies.

Ok, so now to bring this back to some Q&A: more questions for counter picking.

Falco: SmashMacs guide claims you should counterpick at FoD, while the Stage Counter Pick list says you should Ban that stage..... Mixed messages lol? What's the best option? FD isn't a good choice, although it is chaingrab world Falco just does a lot better there and has a lot of maneuverability there.

Peach: What's the best way to edgeguard her? Seems kind of similar to stopping Sheik in that you want her to be vulnerable right above the ledge, but she has so many more options I'm unsure what the best way to keep her off.

I think ima call that "Euthanasia" XD

The reason why there's a mix is because it's opinion. Gea made that list offa the info i compiled, and $mac has shizwiz as a brother. XD

It really comes down to the falco you're playing against, imo. Like, some falcos absolutely hate FoD with a passion, but others love it cause it's relatively small. I actually tend to ban Yoshi's Story against falcos now a day, cause most of them ban FD for me. XD

Edgeguarding peach... throw pills, b.air.
 

otg

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Alright guys, I finally have some vids of my Doc on youtube. My controller broke right before we recorded these matches, the X button crapped out making it real hard to wavedash, jump cancel grabs, etc. No johnz though, these are some decent matches between JonaDiaper and I.

Match 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRRz_XEsYJk
Match 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UZbM4VMEVE
Match 3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDlgGQc4PuQ
Match 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGdNWYMNa-4

Once again sorry for the quality but go ahead and enjoy. Comments? Criticism?
 

Dogysamich

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I'll have to watch those again to watch you, i just saw those on the CF forums.

I will say, you got ***** something fierce last stock game4.

And another thing that i remember, you need to stop u.airing so much and work on those chaingrabs.

You dropped quite a few of them.

__

I dunno, lately i've been on this big kick about "simple execution", cause most people can do the big things (u.air juggles for us), but it's the small things that what gets you win (throw -> f.air kills)

And I've ALWAYS been against u.air approaching. U.air is the SHORTEST and SHORTEST LASTING approach doc has. Why in gods name do you want to try to approach somebody like CF with something that.
 

SmashMac

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The matches were good. I could see that you know how to handle Doc. very well and your opponent was able to handle his character very well as well. Very nice tech follows from the edge. Here are the things I saw.

You need to change your entire recovery game. Not to be blunt but you're not doing it right. Learn how to DI the BEST way (DI with SmashDI). Once you master that, then I'd recommend practicing the correct sequencing of recovery. First it's down+B PTP, then you jump, shoot a few pills (mainly will be about 2 - 3), then depending on the situation, you'll either try to land on the stage, sweet-spot, air-dodge, or actually attack your opponent. If you're going to sweet-spot that's when it's usually a good idea to cape below it. That is the best way to recover. Another way to recover would be to DI perfectly, PTP, then jump towards the stage while reverse-caping (to turn you around), so you could then bair towards the stage.

It didn't seem that spacing was a HUGE part of your game. Change that. You will become 3X as good easily because spacing in your game makes it easier to mindgame and punish your opponent ... and just overall beat them easier. Also, when you're being pressured in your shield (pressuring your shield means you'll be forced to do something out of it that's very predictable) don't roll behind them. Very high level skilled players will easily pick up on that and destroy you. The best thing to do is jump out of your shield with any character. However, with Doc., in the event that you find it appropriate, up+B cancel.

You had a good grab game, and your jabbing game was fantastic. I really liked your bairing approach as well. That works great against all characters so in general to anyone who reads this, learn how to approach with bairs and SHBAWD approach.

Very good Doc. otg. I hope the advice I was able to give from those matches helps.
 

otg

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Thanks for the advice guys, yeah I know I need to work on my spacing, I tend to treat the Doc like he has disjointed hitboxes lol. I'm just overly aggressive. Don't let these videos fool you though, I'm not playing 100% in them. Hopefully I'll have better one's up later this week.

I never thought it would be worth learning the Up B cancel, but based on your advice SmashMac I'll try it out. I sometimes lose moment when I get shield pressured like that, especially against spacies.

Thanks for the advice guys!
 

Dogysamich

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Aight, checkin out these vids again.

Vid 1: If you're going to do FH u.airs at somebody, and they're going to fall with you, FRICKING U.AIR THEM AGAIN or something (n.air, b.air, etc).

Also, dont drop those chaingrizzles!

Now, i know it's funny that $mac and I were talking about f.smash being better than d.smash, but if you're going to shffl u.air somebody, that is one of the times where d.smash > f.smash. (Yeah, i double talk, i'll admit it. :) )

You're also chasing falcon alot with your aerials, which generally will wind up leading to bad things. If you're going to go at him, make sure you're above him instead of even with him. His n.air will beat you ever time if you're on the same height with him.

I liked the idea of u.throw to f.tilt near the end; but i didnt like how long it took for you to put it out there. It worked though, so *pound*

All in all, you just kept dropping combos, but you managed to stay away from Falcon's game. (more of JD didnt DO anything of falcons game, but whatever)

Vid 2: Good early kill in the beginning.

If you're not going to follow up your jab (which is perfectly acceptable since doc's jab kinda blows) the LAST thing you want to do is follow it up by shielding prematurely. Move away then shield if you see something coming you cant get away from.

U.air to d.smash, i saw it happen but you didnt get rewarded. It's ok, you did the right thing.

u.throw -> ONE JUMP -> f.air. :) Its aight, those things happen.

Nice tech read.

Ew you're coming too close to falcon and you got kneed for it.

U.air d.smash! yay! .... u.air ..f.smash? Whatever, it worked. (way to punish missed techs)

I notice that if you hit a shield and land next to somebody, your main reaction is to spotdodge when you land. That's not specifically bad if they keep trying to shieldgrab. But if THEY see that and they're not shieldgrabbing, they're going to start waiting for that spotdodge.

Oh i see what you're doing with your DI. Its ok to try to break combos with u.airs, but you still need to DI to make falcon atleast work for his knees and whatnot.

and PWNT at the end. XD

___

I'll watch the other two again later. I keep getting distracted
 

otg

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SmashMac: I took your advice on recovering, and it has been a great success. I'm sometimes afraid of getting hit, cause without your second jump your screwed. Your method gets you so much more distance, but if you hit your dead meat...
 

SmashMac

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SmashMac: I took your advice on recovering, and it has been a great success. I'm sometimes afraid of getting hit, cause without your second jump your screwed. Your method gets you so much more distance, but if you hit your dead meat...
Hey I'm glad I was able to help. But yes, that's the way I recover against everyone most of the time. Reason being is because even though you're still a bit prone to getting hit from above the edge during that recovery, the pills being thrown will help you situate yourself for a safer landing. Also, at least you're not below the edge where you could get gimped/gayed/spiked/or hit so you have no chance to DI. When you're recovering the correct way though, you're above the edge and if you get hit you still have a chance at DI. But since you already lost your PTP from the first attempt of recovery, if you DI you should then fair to gain back your neutral aerial animation.
 

otg

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A friend of mine recently showed me something cool in teams. Doc/Mario can help their teammates recover with Up B if they are just going to miss the edge. Simply jump out and use your Up B to help boost them back up. Seems pretty self explanatory, but I hadn't thought about it so I felt like sharing.

If you're afraid of getting gimped yourself try launching a pill or two or getting them away entirely by Dsmashing/Bthrowing/anything to get your opponents off your back before jumping out. You're teammate will hopefully be able to tech or just react quickly enough to get your back or even just pressure the enemy team with projectiles/dash dancing or w'e.

Now to clarify, you're going to only want to do this when your teammate is VERY close to the stage, jumping out to far can lead to bad things for you.

Thoughts?
 

elvenarrow3000

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I think running off to a doublejump rising uair would give you more options for the recovery...
 

otg

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Yes Roman is correct, however Uair can be used if your opponent is at the height of their recovery and they JUST miss the ledge. Up B is nice because it pops people right up and you can go low if you have to because of Doc's broken *** sweet spot.
 

Roman.

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the risk:reward ration is just never going to be in docs favor though for any good team would gimp doc out of it in the longrun... plus if your team mate is off the edge he's probably at high %.

Now that i think about it though, there is one situation it would be very smart to use it. Let's same im doc and my teammate is my buddy, a link player. He is getting waveshined across the stage. Once he's close to the edge the fox will probably try to shine gimp him so i would jump off the edge and upb and hit both of them hopefully. Idk, it looks good in my head.
 

otg

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This definitely works, but just like a lot of Doc's game, it's situational. Try to cover yourself with by stalling the enemy with pills and a good clearing move like Dsmash, and if you can't do that than the risk of doing this probably isn't worth it. Doc's Up B has a lot of priority so you should be ok getting back to the stage.
 

elvenarrow3000

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Ummm... I dunno, wouldn't the Link just grab the edge? I know that Mew2King tends to finish waveshines with dsmashs... in his match against PC Chris' Falcon anyway.
 

Roman.

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Most foxs will just keep on shining and then shine off the edge and turn around to grab onto the edge so they can use their invincibility frames to shine again during links upb. But if doc is there upbing, it will hit the fox and the link and they will both fly up onto the stage and the doc will hopefully grab the edge or something.
 
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