Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Roman.]

Don't get me wrong, grabbing a falco is great when they're pillaring but it's not 100% you'll get it and then that's free %. If you're fighting a good falco you don't want them to have any advantage over you. It's not the fact that the falco is frame perfect but the fact that upb cancel will always work, i've never experienced being hit during an upb cancel and that's a great feeling. That eliminates one of falco's greatest part of his metagame.

edit: anyone know if there's a record for like recording consecutive upb cancels in a row?

edit2: it just so happens my friend just realized the fact that doc has an upb cancel so i made a vid for him and idk, seems appropriate to post HERE

 

[Roman.]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wPBLgnSsozI&feature=related

1:39 - 1:44 can anyone explain wtf happened here? when i first saw it i thought "no way he's getting back" and when i saw the reverse pill i just thought smashmac was just being funny but uhh what happened?!

the only explanation i can think of is the bair gave him more momentum, any other thoughts?

 

[otg]

Just cause he shot the reverse pill doesn't mean he wasn't DIing correctly. I'm not sure if Bair helps your recovery, but I could tell he would make it to the ledge with his sweet spot. Nice job Smashmac.

 

[Roman.]

It's not the fact that the reverse pill was there but I'm just stumped by him making it back in general, looked like he was WAY too far to me, idk I'll try to test it.

edit: yeah i just did a few rough trials and it seems like the bair REALLY helps docs recovery, of course this does eliminate the decoy pill to make edgeguarding you harder so it's a risk vs reward thing

 

[SmashMac]

Generally I pill towards characters that don't have one move that can eat through all of them easily, and punish me with the same move ... like Marth for instance. Marth doesn't have a guaranteed move that keeps him safe while eating through all of my pills while being able to connect to me. It's my normal choice of recovery because it's the easiest and best to do in most situations, but against a character like Ganondorf who in one uair can eat through all of my pills and hit me, given the situation where I'm pretty certain he's going to attempt his uair edgeguard to edgehog, I'd rather reverse-pill spaced bair recover so if he jumps out with a uair my bair's priority and spacing will most likely hit him before the hitbox of his uair connects. Of course, this is only useful coming from above the stage ... and yes, the bair does help your DI towards the stage so it's killing two birds with one stone. A Mario player named Ray$ taught me that recovery when I was new to Doc. a couple of years ago so credit's out to him. I believe he quit though before I even started to main Doc. o.o, which was about 1 year and a half ago.

That's just one version of recovery for a given situation. That set was during tournament so I was definitely thinking a whole lot, seeing as being against Renth who's apparently one of the best Ganondorfs and being in the losers bracket was already pretty upsetting.

 

[otg]

Generally I pill towards characters that don't have one move that can eat through all of them easily, and punish me with the same move ... like Marth for instance. Marth doesn't have a guaranteed move that keeps him safe while eating through all of my pills while being able to connect to me. It's my normal choice of recovery because it's the easiest and best to do in most situations, but against a character like Ganondorf who in one uair can eat through all of my pills and hit me, given the situation where I'm pretty certain he's going to attempt his uair edgeguard to edgehog, I'd rather reverse-pill spaced bair recover so if he jumps out with a uair my bair's priority and spacing will most likely hit him before the hitbox of his uair connects. Of course, this is only useful coming from above the stage ... and yes, the bair does help your DI towards the stage so it's killing two birds with one stone. A Mario player named Ray$ taught me that recovery when I was new to Doc. a couple of years ago so credit's out to him. I believe he quit though before I even started to main Doc. o.o, which was about 1 year and a half ago.

That's just one version of recovery for a given situation. That set was during tournament so I was definitely thinking a whole lot, seeing as being against Renth who's apparently one of the best Ganondorfs and being in the losers bracket was already pretty upsetting.

Word, awesome input Smashmac, that was a sick set, your Doc is really really beast.

 

[Renth]

Generally I pill towards characters that don't have one move that can eat through all of them easily, and punish me with the same move ... like Marth for instance. Marth doesn't have a guaranteed move that keeps him safe while eating through all of my pills while being able to connect to me. It's my normal choice of recovery because it's the easiest and best to do in most situations, but against a character like Ganondorf who in one uair can eat through all of my pills and hit me, given the situation where I'm pretty certain he's going to attempt his uair edgeguard to edgehog, I'd rather reverse-pill spaced bair recover so if he jumps out with a uair my bair's priority and spacing will most likely hit him before the hitbox of his uair connects. Of course, this is only useful coming from above the stage ... and yes, the bair does help your DI towards the stage so it's killing two birds with one stone. A Mario player named Ray$ taught me that recovery when I was new to Doc. a couple of years ago so credit's out to him. I believe he quit though before I even started to main Doc. o.o, which was about 1 year and a half ago.

That's just one version of recovery for a given situation. That set was during tournament so I was definitely thinking a whole lot, seeing as being against Renth who's apparently one of the best Ganondorfs and being in the losers bracket was already pretty upsetting.

<3 Smashmac. Don't sweat it I was already in losers too thanks to your brother haha.

Edit: man, I was really nervous I wanted to win really bad we both gave it 100% and It was one of the funnest sets i've ever played

 

[SmashMac]

Thanks otg . Glad my information and Doc. is of some assistance to the betterment of people's learning and improvement.

Renth, the set was definitely fun. I wasn't nervous at all because I never let tournament chills get to me anymore and in all honesty I was playing 100%. But after the set I was pretty angry that I had to fight you. Your Ganon is definitely top in the nation though if you were nervous and were able to dayum near take me out. Even if you weren't nervous I'd still say the same.

 

[Roman.]

I looked through the first couple of pages in the forum but couldn't find the answer to my question so here it is.

Anything that I need to know/anything useful with teaming up with a marth? So far we've just come up with doc doing fsmashes when he grabs or fairs if I tell him to uthrow. Anything else character specific to know that'll help our chances of winning? I used to main marth so I know the range of his moves so that's taken care of.

 

[hoopspr226]

Why is Doc's dair not considered all that great? I don't see other docs use it nearly as much as I do. I tend to use non-fastfalled SH dair to grab a lot and it's pretty successful for the most part. It seems to work against both shielding opponents and non-shielding opponents. Are my opponents just being dumb/not reacting correctly? It's one of my favorite ways to land a grab.

If my opponents are being dumb, is dair -> grab at least a guaranteed combo if the dair hits properly (last hit connects)? Or is it escapable either way?

Thanks.

 

[otg]

Why is Doc's dair not considered all that great? I don't see other docs use it nearly as much as I do. I tend to use non-fastfalled SH dair to grab a lot and it's pretty successful for the most part. It seems to work against both shielding opponents and non-shielding opponents. Are my opponents just being dumb/not reacting correctly? It's one of my favorite ways to land a grab.

If my opponents are being dumb, is dair -> grab at least a guaranteed combo if the dair hits properly (last hit connects)? Or is it escapable either way?

Thanks.

I like Dair, I tend to use it on floaties a lot because they take most of the hits, and yeah Dair->grab is beautiful. On floaties and midweights, dthrow->dair is a good damage racker, and you can typically follow up with Uair or Bair.

 

[Roman.]

i ledge hop dair too much, otherwise on the occasion i'll use full hop dair and go from their or against jigs i always dthrow -> fullhop dair -> dj -> uair -> uair (nice %)

 

[otg]

i ledge hop dair too much, otherwise on the occasion i'll use full hop dair and go from their or against jigs i always dthrow -> fullhop dair -> dj -> uair -> uair (nice %)

Ledge hop Dair is beautiful, but just like everything you have to mix it up. Dair is a good damage racker and it links into grabs/dsmashes... kinda like a lot of Doc's game. Oh and Dair-> uair is top tirez.

 

[otg]

Yeah double post... w/e. A bunch of new vids up for you guys to check out. Ton of Doc stuff with some of my other characters for you to check out.

Youtube playlist - Everything's here, feel free to check em out.

We recorded 7 full matches but I won't post highlights till they are all uploaded (I'm actually having some difficulty getting the last 3 up.) Regardless expect an edit in a day or two.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

so who can doc chaingrab, and from and to what percents can he chain grab them from?

 

[Roman.]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3611692370748778742

 

[otg]

so who can doc chaingrab, and from and to what percents can he chain grab them from?

You can check out SmashMac's guide for exact percents and complete character lists, but the ones who matter are as follows (note, you can start all chaingrabs at 0, but you must predict DI and JC grabs perfectly until the follow %'s where it's guarenteed):

Fox/Falco: Around 20/30%-60ish%. Uthrow

Falcon: 30-70ish%. Uthrow

Sheik: 20-60/70%? Dthrow Something along those lines.

You can follow up each chaingrab with some form of combo:
-uair->dsmash/fsmash/fair
-uair->grab
-usmash->???? (fair maybe)?

Like I said, any of the other stickies have a more solid list, but these are the averages. You can also chanthrow: Roy, Dk, Bowser, Pikachu, Ganondorf, Link, Young Link, Ness maybe? All of them really don't matter so much though because you won't see them often in tournament play, and as a result it's much more important to know how to do it for the Top/High tiers.

Edit:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3611692370748778742

I'm pretty sure some of those percents aren't accurate, Smashmac himself clarified on that. They are taken from Cyphus' guide and are a little outdated. Smashmac's "Doc vs. Nintendo" guide definitely has the closest percents you'll find.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

oh ill look up his doc vs nintendo guide,
i wanted to know for some of the other less used chars because i already knew the percents for those three.

sometimes i play people who use random characters and i thought it would be good to know that info

 

[Dogysamich]

doc can chaingrab

fox falco sheik capfal ganon link y.link roy dk pikachu yoshi bowser.

dont remember the %s off the top of my head

and regarding enders.

u.air -> ___ looks kool, but when you can do it, f.smash is safer. You cant always f.smash though (if they can di completely out of your range that is)

 

[TrikELotus]

I'm a great teams player, but I have never done well with Doc in teams, only in singles. It's probably a matter of the play-style difference between the two. BTW, chaingrabbing is only so useful in teams, because teammates (good ones, anywho ^^) will get their partners out of them. The exception is Marth's chain on space animals, because they lead into a utilt/fsmash quite quickly, whereas Doc's takes more precision and time.

I'm not at all saying Doc is a bad teams character, it is all in the user playstyle. I know I'm good in teams, but for me, I just can't use the Doctor in them.

 

[Dogysamich]

i guess that topic is misleading.

this definitely is just a general doc thread, not team specific.

 

[otg]

I'll get rid of that in the title.

 

[Roman.]

so i've looked around and couldn't find anything that tells you doc's uthrow/dthrow -> fair %'s against other characters. I looked through the guide and this is what I came up with... let's hopefully revise and edit it so we can make an official list.

Fox/Falco - Uthrow 90%+
Sheik - Dthrow at High %
Marth - Dthrow 90%+
Peach - Dthrow 90%+
Captain Falcon - Uthrow at Mid-High%
Ice Climbers - Dthrow at High%
Samus - Dthrow 100% (but can dj/uair out of it)
Jigglypuff - Dthrow 70%

 

[otg]

so i've looked around and couldn't find anything that tells you doc's uthrow/dthrow -> fair %'s against other characters. I looked through the guide and this is what I came up with... let's hopefully revise and edit it so we can make an official list.

Fox/Falco - Uthrow 90%+
Sheik - Dthrow at High %
Marth - Dthrow 90%+
Peach - Dthrow 90%+
Captain Falcon - Uthrow at Mid-High%
Ice Climbers - Dthrow at High%
Samus - Dthrow 100% (but can dj/uair out of it)
Jigglypuff - Dthrow 70%

Fox/Falco need to above 90 for sure, I can't even count how many times I've tried this at about 88 or so, and it connects but doesn't KO... very frustrating. I don't know the percent at which they can jump out, but if they don't anticipate the throw or DI at all, you can connect with Fair up till around 120%, maybe even a lil higher.

Falcon I believe is the same as spacies, but he might actually be a few percents higher since he has a heavier character frame. I'd say its closer to the 95-98%+ range.

Sheik/Ganon/Pika/many other mid/heavyweights are all about 90/100%+ and it's only SH->Fair. You don't need to Full jump until they hit higher percents like 110ish maybe 120ish, and even then I'm pretty sure it will still connect if you are fast enough.

Marth/Peach are about the same, I'm not sure if you need to FJ or just SH though. Something tells me it might be a FJ Fair.

Ice Climbers get hit by it around 100%, but good luck getting that grab in if Nana is still alive. Your better off just spamming spaced out Fairs if thats the case.

**** Samus, I don't even know if that **** is possible because I swear she can Nair before it connects almost EVERYTIME.

As for Jiggz, it's probably closer to 80%, I think I remember Dogy telling me she can rest you if you try at around 70%. As long as Jiggz doesn't DI, you can go up to 90%.

Anyone care to elaborate? I'm not totally sure about some of these.

 

[SmashMac]

With Peach watch out for fast nairs. Samus won't work that ish is ridiculous. Falcon works at pretty much the same %s as spacies but he most likely won't die as quickly. Doc. + Mario are both about 90 - 100% dthrow. Good stuff otg all your info. is right but Pika will actually work starting at around 80% dthrow. That's just some of the information I remember off the top of my head.

 

[Dogysamich]

**** Samus, I don't even know if that **** is possible because I swear she can Nair before it connects almost EVERYTIME.

As for Jiggz, it's probably closer to 80%, I think I remember Dogy telling me she can rest you if you try at around 70%. As long as Jiggz doesn't DI, you can go up to 90%.

Anyone care to elaborate? I'm not totally sure about some of these.

jiggz, it's ~85%-~105%. Somewhere round there, i never keep up with exact numbers.

And yeah, if you go lower, you can land a fair, but just like going lower with anybody else jiggs can punish you for going early. She can just punish with death.

As for samus.

Samus is the only character in the entire game that you cannot throw->f.air at any percent. period.

I dont care what kinda bs somebody tries to say, i've tested every % you can touch her and it's not physically possible. Now mind you that doesnt mean dont try it. Sometimes said samus player doenst know this and will let it slide. But if they stop it, dont expect it to EVER work.

and for anybody who cares, i've been uploading some new vids on my youtube account.

It's not doc only, but then again, it never was.

here, i'll cut out most of the stuff
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ssbm+dogysamich+doc&search_sort=video_date_uploaded
if it's not by date added, sort by date added then have fun.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

...I wish I could throw to fair like you. Currently, I just throw to uair and flail for something.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

The worst part about trying to combo samus (with anyone) is that she has the perfect combo breaker (up-b). b/c of the invincibility frames on that move she can get out of a combo where she's out of hitstun for 1 frame.
But like dogy said it can work anyway sometimes, even if they know they can escape they wont always time it perfectly

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well...

Marth's fair combos outrange the Screw Attack. That's something, right?

Anyway, random fact. In the air, the Screw Attack is invincible from frames one to three, but the first hit is on frame four. Which means you could trade hits with her and somehow continue the combo. Maybe.

 

[Dogysamich]

The worst part about trying to combo samus (with anyone) is that she has the perfect combo breaker (up-b). b/c of the invincibility frames on that move she can get out of a combo where she's out of hitstun for 1 frame.
But like dogy said it can work anyway sometimes, even if they know they can escape they wont always time it perfectly

actually, samus gets out with plenty of frames to spare, which is why she's so hard to combo.

And if you think up+b is bad, try a samus who has enough sense to just nair. That's the most annoying thing ever.

http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/Samus_frames_6.4.06.txt

trading 1 frame for some knockback. Yup.

__
and throw -> fair is just practice. Nothin major. Hardest one to do imo is slightly behind you.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Where'd the one frame come from? A lot of nairs come out on frame three...

I think the worst person to deal with as far as nair goes is Link. Geez. It's ridiculous.

 

[Dogysamich]

i just skimmed through and looked at some (i couldnt just open the spreadsheet cause my microsoft works is being gay right now for some reason)

the fastest nairs are 3, but there are alot of 4s.

The 1 frame comes from samus screw attack is i3, nair is i4. (Yes, i just said i3 cause knee-deep in SC4. scream at me)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

What's SC4?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

yhea, nair is overall better as a combo breaker, i just pointed out that if samus if out of hitstun for just 1 frame she can get out of the combo. Most chars cant do anything in such a short time.
Well she wouldnt always get out, cuz you could outprioritize/outrange it at the same time as it comes out. (If you're marth. )

The biggest problem with samus though is that she hardly has hitstun at low percent D=. and then when she's at high % enough to combo, she's hit back to far away from anything to combo (cuz she's so floaty) -.-
Unless you're captain falcon, samus can't be combo'd for ****

 

[Dogysamich]

What's SC4?

Soul Calibur 4
First set is my garbage tier cassandra. XD I played like garbage, and i wish i coulda played talim but she's too bad.

yhea, nair is overall better as a combo breaker, i just pointed out that if samus if out of hitstun for just 1 frame she can get out of the combo. Most chars cant do anything in such a short time.
Well she wouldnt always get out, cuz you could outprioritize/outrange it at the same time as it comes out. (If you're marth. )

The biggest problem with samus though is that she hardly has hitstun at low percent D=. and then when she's at high % enough to combo, she's hit back to far away from anything to combo (cuz she's so floaty) -.-
Unless you're captain falcon, samus can't be combo'd for ****

Oh people cant combo her, just not really doc. I mean, you can u.air juggle her starting later than normal, but like yous aid that's more of a risk than it is with other people.

 

[Neverender]

Samus is just a lame person to fight. She's heavy, has a cancelable missle, and IMO the best recovery. Cape the projectiles and approach with pills. N-air is a good option. I suggest counterpick FoD against her, just so she get's pressured easily and less room to camp.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh Soul Calibur...

Some friends of mine wanted to play it over SSBM (God knows why) so I figured I'd learn it and crush them quickly so that we could go back to SSBM.

Dear God.

I could not understand the game at all.

It's always stuff like... if you're on the ground, face up, and your opponent is in the air with his back to you and you're in the Super Tiger stance, then press A+B, Y, back+Z to do this attack which will transition into this launcher blah blah blah.

Like... how is anyone supposed to know that for every character? It's insane.

Fortunately, we stuck with Smash.

EDIT: Wow Dogy, I can't really tell what's going on, but good spacing.

 

[Dogysamich]

Oh Soul Calibur...

Some friends of mine wanted to play it over SSBM (God knows why) so I figured I'd learn it and crush them quickly so that we could go back to SSBM.

Dear God.

I could not understand the game at all.

It's always stuff like... if you're on the ground, face up, and your opponent is in the air with his back to you and you're in the Super Tiger stance, then press A+B, Y, back+Z to do this attack which will transition into this launcher blah blah blah.

Like... how is anyone supposed to know that for every character? It's insane.

Fortunately, we stuck with Smash.

EDIT: Wow Dogy, I can't really tell what's going on, but good spacing.

SC4 isnt really that deep. I mean dont get me wrong, it's not a shallow game, but it's not THAT bad. Some characters? Maybe, but if you play them for a bit, dealing with their stances is really no problem (seeing how most of them only have a handful of moves from each stance).

The exception to that rule is ivy, since she has 3 states with different movesets, and a stance thrown on top of this. Then when you get into the advanced ivy ****, your head just spins.

But you play people like cass, all you need is 236b. XD.

Thanks btw. First tourney match in forever on soemthing that wasnt melee.

 

[otg]

A few friends and I got into SCII last spring, and it's DOPE. Once you learn how to chain moves together and space, it gets pretty nuts. Xianghua's broken though.

 

[JonaDiaper]

A few friends and I got into SCII last spring, and it's DOPE. Once you learn how to chain moves together and space, it gets pretty nuts. Xianghua's broken though.

max you play sc2 for the cube??? why the hell didnt you tell me. i would have ***** you with nightmare. gosh