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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

Roman.

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i never said you couldn't grab the edge, but all the times m2k dsmashed he could've done another shine and that's when doc comes in and upbs everyone.
 

elvenarrow3000

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Ehhh... dunno then, I haven't really played much against waveshining Foxs. Nor do I play a waveshining Fox =P
 

otg

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Doc really doesn't have to worry about getting waveshined. I'm pretty sure as long you don't crouch cancel and smash DI away, Fox has limited follow ups. But seriously guys, Up B team
save ftw.

Doc's vertical recover is broken so you shouldn't have many problems getting back to the stage. Someone mentioned that if your opponent missed the ledge they must be at high percent, which just isn't true. If you're partner has mediocre recovery (look here for reference: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=94647&highlight=Tier+List) and they DI incorrectly when getting hit by a hard hit (think a tipper, Ganon fair, the knee, shine spike, etc) than they might not be able to recover properly.

Here at least if they make an attempt to recover you might be able to help them and maintain your current stock count. However, obviously if your teammate can't make it back even with your help they are better not wasting time so they can respawn and get your back.

Try it!
 

elvenarrow3000

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I think the situation was that a Link was getting waveshined and a Doc (his partner) was saving him.
 

otg

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Ok I have a new question that I've yet to see a good answer about: angling the Fsmash.

What are the advantages to angling the Fsmash in certain directions. For example, if you angle Mario's Fsmash upwards it'll increase the range and knockback but if you angle it downward it makes the sweetspot closer to your body, thus allowing for an easier combo finisher at close range. Does the same apply to Doc?
 

Dogysamich

The Designated Hype Man!
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I dunno if you know this but... Link... he's kind of a big deal.

[/ontimeandnotliketwoweekslate]
ALBAAAAAAAAAANY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI27VdNjS-s <-- dtilt useful at the end of the vid
*facepalm*

that's about as resourceful as peach edgeguarding with d.smash. You are actually giving your opponent MORE of a chance to walltech than if you used f.tilt or just... took the ledge. XD

____

Just got back from FAST1.

Oh my god team friendlies with $mac is toooo ****in good. Fresh Bowl of Marios, now with Ph.D

We got a MM in against GreenMario and DJ Nintendo. Oh we got ***** something fierce but that **** was hilarious. I definately got dominated by the generic brand of Fresh Bowl of Marios @ the end of game2.

Eggm's gunna upload the video sometime.
 

otg

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Wow, Green Mario was beasting on both of you pretty hard. Good stuff though.

I have a new question (also my question about Fsmash has remained unanswered). It seems to me like Doc and Mario both have different advantages in different matchups. Who is better in what match up and why?

As in; when would you want to use Mario over Doc? I was thinking that Doc might be better for Marth, and based off the "Who Counters Doc" topic, seems like Mario might have a better matchup against Falcon. Thoughts?
 

Dogysamich

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Oh, i never saw the angled f.smash thing. It doesnt increase the range at all (not even for marios) just changes where the hitbox is so you can cover a different area. It also changes the angle of trajectory. If it were to change the ACTUAL length, doc's arm would have to grow. >.>


As for Mario vs Doc.
It STILL comes down to preference, imo. And I'd like boss to back me up on this. It really comes down to whichever you want to use to help yourself in the matchup. With mario, you get the benefit of comboing easier and being able to reach people, with doc, you get the bonus of killing easier.


 

otg

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Word, thats what I figured (regarding Fsmash). As for Matchups though, I can see that. Doc and Mario play very similarly although I feel that Mario's ability to combo easier doesn't really mean much if you can't get those easy KO's in.

wait a sec... I guess my preference is Doc than lol. I just remember awhile ago, Boss (who mains both Marios) mentioned that he used them both in certain matchups... so why? What's your method?
 

Gea

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Mario definitely has an easier time in a few matchups.

Peach, for example, is much easier with Mario's fsmash than without it. (sorry, but against a GOOD Peach fsmash is easier to land than a grab :< ... in my experience anyways.)

Alot of people prefer Mario in the Sheik matchup too. Personally I like Doc more.
 

otg

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Alright, well seems like no one has anything to say about the Doc/Mario matchups, so here's
something fun I just came across; "A Funny Way to Kill Jiggly on Yoshi's".

Yoshi's is one of Jiggly's worst stages because of it's low ceilings and sides, so chances are they will ban this stage in tourney, but if they are stupid and ban something else against you, try using this to net a KO or two.

On platforms you can Dthrow-> Up B or Usmash -> Up B (at lower percents) to KO jiggly. Doc's Up B sends jiggly up VERY VERY high, and I've found it can kill from 70%+. You probably need to connect with all of the hits to get the full knockback and the percent varies based on where you are in the stage, but I just thought this would be something fun to share with you guys.

It might even KO at lower percents if you are able to catch her off the top of the screen (think Falco's Shine Shine Shine), but I don't feel like testing this because it's not very serious at all. Fun stuff thouh.
 

HiIH

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So... grabs or smashes after jabs? I always seem to jab>dsmash, but I have a feeling that I'd probably be alot better off grabbing at some points. Any hard rule to it, or just mix it up and such?
 

otg

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So... grabs or smashes after jabs? I always seem to jab>dsmash, but I have a feeling that I'd probably be alot better off grabbing at some points. Any hard rule to it, or just mix it up and such?
It's all situational. If a Dsmash would kill your opponent after a jab than do it, but if you need to rack up some damage beforehand go with the grab. Another thing is if you constantly rely on Jab->dsmash your opponent might start catching on, so you might want to start mixing up some Grabs. Just think about your opponent, your position on the stage, your follow ups using both options and than go from there.

Edit:

I actually have a question that maybe someone could help clarify. Is Doc's Nair stronger than Marios? I know Doc's gets stronger the longer its out, but does it have more knockback than Mario's when it first comes out?
 

SmashMac

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Yeah it's just situational. Like if he's near the edge, you can grab after a quick jab and immediately throw them forward off the stage. Then again if you dsmash that'll send them off the stage too. But if you're in the centre of the stage and your opponent can be CGed at the % he's at after a jab, grab instead of dsmash 'cause if you uthrow/dthrow them they're guaranteed to get grabbed next grab if you know how to CG. If you're not comfortable with CG though, then just dsmash.
 

#HBC | Mac

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since this is the doc Q&A thread supposedly i have a few questions.
Why can't I get the upB cancel, i do it once every 25 tries, than randomly i did it 4 times in a row and since then I can't so it at all. Any tips on performing this tech.

On what frames do the first hitbox appear in the following moves: jab, uptilt, dsmash, and downb.

which is a better stage for doc? Yoshi's story or FOD
 

otg

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since this is the doc Q&A thread supposedly i have a few questions.
Why can't I get the upB cancel, i do it once every 25 tries, than randomly i did it 4 times in a row and since then I can't so it at all. Any tips on performing this tech.

On what frames do the first hitbox appear in the following moves: jab, uptilt, dsmash, and downb.

which is a better stage for doc? Yoshi's story or FOD
Can't help you with the Up Cancel (I can barely do it myself), and as for hitbox information I would suggest going here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=95150

It has hitbox information for a lot of characters.. including Doc!

As for stages, I tend to like Yoshi's and FoD, but only for certain matchups. For Yoshi's, the low sides and ceiling allow for some low % KO's and if you are good in platforms you can mix a lot up on that stage with wavelands and Bairs.

For FoD, this stage is fine IMO, maybe not as good as Yoshis, but it's great against Falcon (he needs space to move) and any other character that relies heavily on Short hops (Fox, Falco... although Falco can combo the BALLS out of you on this stage, be warned).

In the end it's all about what you are comfortable with. Doc is a character who really isn't affected by what stage he's on too much (unless you want to CG free on FD), more so what stage is bad for your opponent.
 

HiIH

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I never get a chance to CG with doc, because almost all i get to play around here is MARTH.

= |

on stages:you've got to remember that doc's recovery sucks, so anything with small blast zones is going to give you the advantage, since it won't exactly matter how large the stage is since you'll die around the same time as you would anyway.
 

Roman.

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Can't help you with the Up Cancel (I can barely do it myself), and as for hitbox information I would suggest going here:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=95150

It has hitbox information for a lot of characters.. including Doc!

As for stages, I tend to like Yoshi's and FoD, but only for certain matchups. For Yoshi's, the low sides and ceiling allow for some low % KO's and if you are good in platforms you can mix a lot up on that stage with wavelands and Bairs.

For FoD, this stage is fine IMO, maybe not as good as Yoshis, but it's great against Falcon (he needs space to move) and any other character that relies heavily on Short hops (Fox, Falco... although Falco can combo the BALLS out of you on this stage, be warned).

In the end it's all about what you are comfortable with. Doc is a character who really isn't affected by what stage he's on too much (unless you want to CG free on FD), more so what stage is bad for your opponent.
This should answer it all and I just want to add that upb canceling is all about the feel. Like two weeks ago I could only do it once I finally got the timing and then I could do it for like the next 15 minutes every time but now I memorized the timing perfectly and get it everytime. It's all about practicing a bunch.
 

otg

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This should answer it all and I just want to add that upb canceling is all about the feel. Like two weeks ago I could only do it once I finally got the timing and then I could do it for like the next 15 minutes every time but now I memorized the timing perfectly and get it everytime. It's all about practicing a bunch.
Could you explain the timing? I'm still iffy on it, is there anything else like it? For example: the timing for Doc's SHBAWL is the same as Marth's SHDFair, and the second I understood that I was able to SHBAWL consistently. I'm still unsure about how legitimately useful Up Cancelling is, but it couldn't hurt to learn.
 

#HBC | Mac

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well the upb cancel comes out on the 3rd frame, its the fastest thing to do out of a shield i think, so it might be pretty useful.

and yea im confused about it as well

and does the upbcancel hit behnd doc?
 

Roman.

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it hits all around him and i think the hitboxes vary very little depending which way you face

the timing is basically just upb and then quickly move the control stick the other way (im assuming you guys know how to upb cancel correctly) it's basically just slamming the control stick right as the upb happens

but just to be on the safe side, once you do figure out the timing, be aware that it's better to be too early rather than too late on it because out of shield either you'll upb cancel (perfect timing), upb (too late), or roll (too early) and it's much better to roll than upb and get punished

edit: it's not comparable to anything i can think of

edit2: it's EXTREMELY useful against pivoting falcos, i would recommend learning it just for that (atleast i did cause my area is full of falcos) and i use it against foxes if the moment calls for it, otherwise it's just fun and flashy kind of like multishining
 

otg

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it hits all around him and i think the hitboxes vary very little depending which way you face

the timing is basically just upb and then quickly move the control stick the other way (im assuming you guys know how to upb cancel correctly) it's basically just slamming the control stick right as the upb happens

but just to be on the safe side, once you do figure out the timing, be aware that it's better to be too early rather than too late on it because out of shield either you'll upb cancel (perfect timing), upb (too late), or roll (too early) and it's much better to roll than upb and get punished

edit: it's not comparable to anything i can think of

edit2: it's EXTREMELY useful against pivoting falcos, i would recommend learning it just for that (atleast i did cause my area is full of falcos) and i use it against foxes if the moment calls for it, otherwise it's just fun and flashy kind of like multishining
Yeah, I can imagine it being useful against Falco, but if he's pillaring and you have the opportunity to do this, wouldn't you just be better off with a shieldgrab? The only time this would actually work is if he misses his L-cancel, unless it comes out faster than the shine.
 

Roman.

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idk what kind of falcos you play but you can't really shield grab a pillaring falco, you'll get punished and comboed more than grab but if you upb cancel you can't get punished

edit: i still personally prefer rolling away but throwing in an upb cancel scares the **** out of falcos, they start to camp more (lol camping vs doc doesn't work) and make more mistakes
 

#HBC | Mac

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yu can upbcancel right after the pillaring falco shines and starts jumping to do dair, technically yu can shield grab then too unless the falco is frame perfect which they usually aren't. But Upb Cancel wud be safer cuz it comes out faster.

edit: the upb comes out on frame 3 whereas the grab comes out on frame 7.
 

otg

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yu can upbcancel right after the pillaring falco shines and starts jumping to do dair, technically yu can shield grab then too unless the falco is frame perfect which they usually aren't. But Upb Cancel wud be safer cuz it comes out faster.

edit: the upb comes out on frame 3 whereas the grab comes out on frame 7.
That's what I'm saying. Of course you can't shield grab a smart Falco, but if they make a mistake and theres an opening for a shieldgrab than you should take it, why bother upb canceling? Also, you can mess with Falco's L canceling by adjusting your shield upwards.

I'm just saying, I don't see how UpB canceling could supplement for already established and useful tactics when fighting against Falco.
 

#HBC | Mac

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well upbcancel works against a frame perfect pillaring falco because it is fast enough to hit in the time between the falco's jump and dair, whereas grabs are not fast enoufgh.
 
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