Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[JPOBS]

k so i second doc because falco vs peach and jiggs is not fun imo and because doc generally rules.

my problem is though, i can combo **** peach but of stages not named yoshi's story i have problems finishing both.

at what percents can i do what reliable kills?
i know downthrow->fair is generally good but when i can safely land that and what other options are there.

 

[Shroomed]

kill choices:

downsmash, dthrow -> fair

pick one

Fsmash if ur lucky

 

[bahamutz69]

The first half (Not exact, but you get the point) of the U-Tilt sends them mostly sideways-ish, but if you hit them with the second "Half" (When his fist gets really big), it will send them straight up.

So if the problem is with timing, you just need to work on throwing it out a little earlier. Otherwise, you would be better off, instead of U-Tilting after an aerial, to (Jab >) Grab > U/D-Throw first. Then, U-Tilt.

EDIT: POST 1111, LOLLLLS

i ****en love this thread

 

[Dogysamich]

Also, also, also, you now have me saying Capfal, Dogy.
I used to just say Falcon.

Heh, sorry. Falco/Falcon just never really seemed bright to me.

Hey Docs.
Should we help Wordjem with his "mtach-up chart"?

I dont really care to, and I'll show you why.

Doc vs Ganon is basically Doc runs away and then eventually he gets punched in the face (or grabbed comboed into a punch to the face) and realizes his pain killers aren't fast acting enough.

It's not too bad though.

1. sheik
2. cfal
3. luigi
4. the other 3 top tiers
5. ganondorf
6 everyone else

And somewhere in this, I say Doc/Ganon is even.

My point is, who's right in this arguement?
Answer: Who's to say? And even if somebody is right, how do you go about convincing somebody who's never played something like a good doc or a good ganon?

It's like the arguement I made in the thread, the way the character selection is in this game, a matchup chart is still inaccurate enough to the point of where it's not really needed. Alot of the characters are under/misrepresented.

I mean take the south for instance. Some people have seen me play Ganon and say there's nothing Ganon can do to stop Doc. Then there's the few people who've only seen me play Chaddd, and they say the match is downright impossible for doc. I say the match is even. I dont even know what chaddd or any other good ganon says about the matchup (I cant imagine them really caring since they see the matchup like, twice a year?) If we were to just do a matchup chart for the south alone, who's right?

Even then, how are you going to get somebody to believe a matchup that has been set a certain way for years (i.e. I think kirby is actually alot better than he's given credit for. The **** if i'm going to prove it in tourney. Same goes for others with the way things are)

so im currently playing mario way more than doc
for basically 1 reason
mario can aerial>utilt and throw out a perfect combo trajectory
i notice when i do this with doc his utilt has a totally different knock back

so i was just wondering if theres a way to get around it
anything that sets up for sex combos like mario

Yeah, you pretty much have to get them above you to even give the u.tilt a chance to send them up. Really, if you want to combo somebody off the ground, you're probably better off using u.smash.

Question: I dont chaingrab enough, is this a serious problem these days or what.. I really want to know your opinions, sorry for a dumb question.

Na, it's not a dumb question, that's what we're here for.

...
-glares at 18s-
Yeah it's a problem, unless you're godly at tech chasing. Even if you screw up whatever ender you want, free damage is free damage.
-glares at 18s again-

 

[joeplicate]

let me hit you with some general discussion


brandon's doc is amazing

 

[Vulcan55]

Thinking aloud:

The further down the tier list you go, the less people play that character (Less character density), and the less informed people are about them.
Might it is safe to assume that, based on principle rules of mathematics, that "average" data is more likely to be skewed because of a smaller population size (Outliers affect the mean more)?


It could also have something to do with something I think you, Dogy, might have said earlier, about lower tiers not having a cookie-cutter play style like the other top / high-tiers. The way HMW plays, he could beast the Ganon match-up. The way you play, you say vs Ganon is even. Maybe the way 18Spikes plays, he gets ***** by Ganon.

 

[Dogysamich]

The part about lowtiers is true, and that's my point (to some degree). The real problem is that for characters that dont have ANYBODY who's just 'above and beyond' with that character, nobody is really going to believe anything they say.

It used to be old folklore that Peach's worst matchup was actually Y.link. And I dont mean like, 6-4 bad, I mean like 8-2. Who's a good enough Y.link now-a-day to even prove this matchup to be an even matchup? And even if the y.links that are out there annhilate Peach's left and right, who's going to believe them since none of them place ridiculously well? (Random tidbit, I have played this matchup in tourney before, something is definitely up with this matchup)

__

As for the playstyle thing, that's ALWAYS the case. With the scenario you listed, that would have us saying Doc vs Ganon is even, inspite of the fact you have one case saying Doc ***** ganon, One saying it's even, and one saying Ganon ***** Doc. What happens if every Ganon main says Ganon annhilates Doc? It's entirely possible of every Ganon who posts in there DOESNT live in a region with a Doc. (i.e., if Kage goes in there, i'll be surprised if he says that matchup is even.)

__

When it's all said and done, a matchup chart IS opinion. Im not trying to deny that or take that away.

[/topic]
Cause Im starting to feel like a tape recorder right now. XD

 

[Vulcan55]

New topic...
Hmm...
Street Fighter Flash collab is out. There's some sick **** in there (Stamper).

 

[InterimOfZeal]

My post didn't even get a second mention? Seriously? Why not? Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

Seriously though, if you know that he's going to come in with nair, stick a fsmash there. If you suspect a dair, meet him in the air with nair/uair/KOBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

More on the match-up later. Also, I'll have vids soon. I play terribly in most of them, but I think that's a good thing. It's easier to get critiques when you play bad, eh?

 

[Kasumi]

Zeal, if you seriously have vids of yourself getting fsmashes against good capfal nairs, I need to see them. If that works, it'll make my week.

 

[Shroomed]

if falcon spaces right, i dont think it works at all

but hey, where's those vids lol

 

[InterimOfZeal]

The guy hasn't uploaded them yet, he's sick or sum ****.

The Falcon I play against is from NM, so he's not quite up to CO's level, but it's prolly better that way considering I'm still pretty scrubby with Doc.

Unless Falcon's nair is disjointed, you could also usmash it, I think. It's what I used to do with Peach, but her usmash is MADD invincible, so I dunno.

Most Falcons I play against try to get ya with his inner thigh, though, for easier combos. If they're doing that and you know where they're going to be, fsmash is seriously amazing. You trade hits, but like... 4% for your 19%? Sounds good to me.

I'll try to get them up ASAP. Worst case scenario, I'll just record some matches in the next couple days with my computer's webcam. Or something. I really want to get good with Doc.

Oh, disclaimer for the vids with the Falcon/Fox/Marf that will be coming up:

Controller johnz. I randomly fthrow/bthrow instead of up/down because it likes to do stupid **** like that. I also randomly roll for some reason. I think it's because I'm still getting used to Melee shieldstun again, and so when I try to bair out of shield quickly, I end up just rolling instead.

Or my technicals are worse than I remember. One or the other!

But yeah, I'll try to get vids vs CO's CF, since he's leagues better than the NM Falcon.

 

[JPOBS]

i cant seem to find an accurate percent to dthrow->fair peach.jiggs at.

I've been trying againstlvl 9 comps because they have perfect relexs and will attempt to hit you everytime they can so i figure thats a good way to try it because a good peach/jiggs will do that anyway.

no matter the percent though, they always seem to be able to squeeze a nair/dair in there and hit me.
so is dthrow->fair not a certainty and just all about spacing it right?

 

[Dogysamich]

speed of jump, jumping at the right place, etc etc.

There's a % range where it's guarenteed on both, but you gotta realize that doc's d.throw is affected by weight. That key to that being that there is a quick turn around to when you're supposed to jump.

On jiggs, it's basically immediately after you throw. Peach has a slight, slight delay behind jiggs, but it's almost immediate too.

Beyond that, trial and error. I've stuck to this for years, but I'm never going to put ANY percent range of guarenteed dunks on the boards, cause **** is going to be comical when people actually sit down and find out for themselves.

 

[Vulcan55]

Are there IASA frames on throws?
I want to know because I always used to never be able to get U-throw rest on Fox at anything above 0%.
Apparently I was jumping too late (Since it apparently works up to 90%, but I don't believe that **** for a second), even though it looked like I was jumping as soon as the throw ended.
So I'm wondering if maybe I am wasting time doing nothing during these frames.

 

[Dogysamich]

There might be, I dont know.

The throw being affected by weight is real important, and then knowing the weight of the character you're throwing.

Like with u.throw rest, fox is light as ****.

OH YOU KONW WHAT TIME IT IS

Weight - measures how far characters get knocked HORIZONTALLY, or left and right. This list I tested from the Mushroom Kingdom 2 weight scale. Also someone helped me with this by RATING the weights (Mario = 100, a.k.a. average), which is shown on the far left side. I rechecked his work and fixed the mistakes in it, and here is the list.

--- 117 --- (1) Bowser
--- 114 --- (2) DK
--- 110 --- (3) Samus
--- 109 --- (4) Ganondorf
--- 108 --- (5) Yoshi
--- 104 --- (6-7) Captain Falcon / Link
--- 100 --- (8-10) Dr. Mario / Luigi / Mario
--- 94 --- (11) Ness
--- 90 --- (12-14) Peach / Sheik / Zelda
--- 88 --- (15) Ice Climbers
--- 87 --- (16) Marth
--- 85 --- (17-19) Mewtwo / Roy / Young Link
--- 80 --- (20-21) Falco / Pikachu
--- 75 --- (22) Fox
--- 70 --- (23) Kirby
--- 60 --- (24-25) Jigglypuff / Mr. Game & Watch
--- 55 --- (26) Pichu

Which mind you, is different from falling speed, VERY different.

So afaik, it's really just about getting the timing down to jump as soon as possible.

___

With that being said, yeah I take back what I said about peach (I honestly forget the weights myself, I just know %s and when to go up after them.)

Same as sheik, weights more than marth. That's pretty funny. Makes sense to my hands though.

 

[eighteenspikes]

jesus christ. ive been playing with some guys all night and im getting ****ing wrecked by Kirby. i literally believe that kriby is significantly harder than Falco. all he has to do is tilt and fair?? its ****ing annoying, i was getting wrecked all night...... I was getting gimped by uair too doesnt even make sense

REVISED MATHCUP LIST!!
captain falcon
sheik
luigi
kirby
marth
fox
ganondorf
falco
everyone else (til further notice)

 

[Dogysamich]

lol, now see. At this point I cant tell if you're kidding or not.

I mean, sadly, i know the doc/kirby match, and i know kirby can do alot of things in that matchup. XD

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

jesus Christ. Ive Been Playing With Some Guys All Night And Im Getting ****ing Wrecked By Kirby. I Literally Believe That Kriby Is Significantly Harder Than Falco. All He Has To Do Is Tilt And Fair?? Its ****ing Annoying, I Was Getting Wrecked All Night...... I Was Getting Gimped By Uair Too Doesnt Even Make Sense

Revised Mathcup List!!
Captain Falcon
Sheik
Luigi
Kirby
Marth
Fox
Ganondorf
Falco
Everyone Else (til Further Notice)

Looolll???????????????????

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Does CC not **** Kirby? Pretty sure that's all I had to do to stop him. CC and pillspam would prolly ****.

Or just pick Peach. It's not even fair what she does to him.

 

[otg]

Wow 18, you blow my mind. Kirby isn't an easy matchup but Doc def has the advantage. I have a lot of exp in the match up, and Doc only has to follow a few simple rules to win:

- you outrange him (OMG WTF NOWAI), but yeah Dsmash/ftilt beat out everything kirby has
- if he's crouching, Dsmash is your friend
- pill spam like no tomorrow, cause he can't do **** (just make sure he doesn't get your pills)
- if you get a grab, dthrow-> fair is guaranteed at any percent, which means dthrow-> anything is possible. dthrow -> dair has insane damage potential, and when you think about how light kirby is and how floaty he is, he'll eat most/all the hits if spaced right, which is amazing for you.
- his recovery is pretty easy to gimp as his upB has very little/no horizontal reach, so a few invincibility bairs and a cape/edgehog are really all you need there, just don't try to be to aggressive offstage as he has a better recovery than you and can defend himself (thus why you need the invicibility edgeguard)
- if he swallows you don't struggle.... and if he tries to fthrow/bthrow kirbycide you, struggle out of that **** so he dies

yeah, lots of generalization here, but if you follow these simple guidelines (particularly camping/dthrow-> fair) it's cake.

 

[eighteenspikes]

lol well thanks otg fro the serious post, maybe tomorrow morning ill try that ****

 

[Dogysamich]

wait 18s are you being serious? Im confused. XD

Because if that's the case, im waiting for the day you play a GOOD zelda. ^_^

__

and for the record, doc DOES NOT outrange kirby. Kirby's d.tilt is PRETTY long. Kirby outranges Sheik if you dont know. The thing that makes the match hard for kirby is that there's not alot you can duck.

And really, pillspam doesnt work too good on kirby since he CAN duck a grounded pill. That being said, there arent too many people who are smart/brave/good enough to run THROUGH pill spam (inspite of how bad some Doc's pill patterns are), but it does work.

And zeal, telegraphing a CC could and probably should get you swallowed. Pills is kirby's BEST hat, as kirby's pill game is 10x better than docs.

And I cant believe it's not butter.

Kirby is so awesome. FREEDOM!! F**K YEAH!

--edit--
Oh and zeal. Peach v Kirby? Lol. You'd be surprised to know some things about that matchup. Peach can D.smash kirby... if she can get in on him. XD

Kirby's d.tilt is longer than peach's d.smash, he can duck a dash attack and both versions of grab among many other things. How many good kirby players have you really seen?

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Don't forget if you hit Kirby outta his Up-B, he loses ALL his jumps, no matter what.

I forget to think of the swallow as a grab. I haven't played a legit Kirby with Doc yet. Saw KrazyKirby at OC3, he ***** so hard it wasn't even funny, but I didn't get to play him. D: D: D:

Lololol, CC is my answer to everything with Doc right now. I love his CC game too much.

Peach doesn't need to dsmash, and Peach players that rely on that move are garbage. Give me one move kirby has that beats rapid FC bair. And I don't mean trade, I mean beats clean. Cuz that's all I've ever done to Kirby when I played Peach, and it ***** every one I met. You don't need to grab him, ever. Floating dair just above him is sad times for him, too. Bair>nair>uair is great damage at low percent, assuming you can do running FCs while reading DI. And don't forget about her AMAZING dtilt, which can pull her just out of the range of any non-disjointed move and punish it into a combo (Whut? Peach combos?). Of course, if he's doing dtilt too much, just dsmash twice. First one will clink, second will pull him in, then he's *****.

This is completely ignoring how much maneuverability Peach's DJC game gives her, as well as how ridiculously long she stays alive, how easily she can **** his shield, and how easily she can combo into kills/edgeguard him/whatever else. The match-up is easily 6:4, if not 7:3. FCing ***** so many characters not named Fox/Marth/Sheik/Link/Luigi/goddammit, I really hate Luigi/No Srsly, Hate

And one or two others that I know I'm forgetting.

Oh, and don't forget that if he gets the weird idea that he can EVER approach Peach from the air, she can just usmash and beat every single move he has aside from down-b, which will be blocked and then met with fc nairs/bairs/uairs until he comes outta it. Or dsmash, if the Peach is dumb. Or dair>nair if she's lazy. He's too slow in the air to ever pose a threat to her. What's he gonna do, fence camp her?

And turnips. And everything. God, the more I write, the more I remember why I didn't know how most low tiers played. You don't need to with Peach, srsly. Cept campy *** YL. But that's part of the reason I dropped her, so whatever.

LoVo played Kirby for a while, so I know about some of Kirby's bs. It's not like I played KKK on a regular basis, but I'm not clueless about some of the stuff he can do. Just clueless about what Doc can do about it.

But these are the Doc boards, not the Peach boards, amirite? I wish she weren't so **** susceptible to camping. I might still play her. D:

Also, does his dthrow/whatever>jab reset>swallow work on Doc? If so, should prolly warn people about that, since he really does seem like he can **** with pillz.

 

[otg]

I can never tell if 18 is being serious or not, w'e I'm posting advice for anyone who cares or might need it, Kirby is really really lame at first.

Also Dogy, my philosophy is, if my opponent doesn't have a projectile, I'm gonna force them to approach and spam the **** outta them from the distance. Whether or not it is the best option doesn't matter to me, Kirby is slow as nutsacks, so he's gonna have to work his way to my *** if he wants some %.

Just my opinion.

 

[Dogysamich]

***** this the DOC GENERAL DISCUSSION. WHERE DOC PLAYERS TALK ABOUT WHATEVER IN THE FLYIN F**K THEY FEEL LIKE. (In legal forum bounds, until somebody comes and shuts down the studio or it gets out of control and I shut it down)

YOU WANNA TALK PEACH/KIRBY? LETS GO!

_

Beat FC bair? Na I doubt that'll happen unless it's a spaced f.tilt or something. I'd just move. I mean, that's what you do against anything in any fighter you cant beat.
-laughs- except for smash. Apparently everything to be beaten or it's broken.

"Fox's nair is so good, I cant beat it." Man **** that, move. XD

And then floating over floating towards kirby. It's one thing that kirby outrun's peach, but he outruns her float too. Why in gods name would Kirby stand near that? Why would anybody be near a Peach floating in? It's like, cut her off or run. She's in complete advanatage at that point.

Stoping everything with upsmash? That's the same concept of marth stopping everything with f.smash. It works in theory, but is Peach really going to sit there and wait for it?

"So the matchup is 6-4, maybe 7-3" If it's really 7-3 (which it might be, I'm not trying to be a low-tier fanboy or anything), then yeah it'd be bad. WHY THE **** IS 6-4 SUCH A HORRID MATCHUP IN SMASH. WHY? WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY? Dear god that's one of the many things I dont understand about this community. A 6-4 MATCHUP IS APPARENTLY ONE OF THE WORST THINGS IN THE WORLD. -rolls eyes-

Hating how characters are played? Welcome to the world of smash!!

___

As for kirby's guarenteed swallow, that doesnt have to be from a d.throw. It's just jab reset to swallow. Alot of people, for some ungodly reason, miss the tech on the d.throw (hell, alot of people tech instead of just jumping out. It's really comical)

___

Edit:

OTG, define slow. Kirby's not fast by any stretch of the imagination, but his ground movement isnt BAD. And considering kirby wants to be on the ground because well... he can crouch, it's not like he's an easy target. The thing is it just takes him time to do stuff.

 

[Desh]

jesus christ. ive been playing with some guys all night and im getting ****ing wrecked by Kirby. i literally believe that kriby is significantly harder than Falco. all he has to do is tilt and fair?? its ****ing annoying, i was getting wrecked all night...... I was getting gimped by uair too doesnt even make sense

REVISED MATHCUP LIST!!
captain falcon
sheik
luigi
kirby
marth
fox
ganondorf
falco
everyone else (til further notice)

Lol........................ Lol Lol Lol............ Lol..................... LOLOL.......
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Lol Lol Lol............... Lol Lol Lol............. Lol Lol Lol ............. LOLOL.......


that took waaayyy too long. worth it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm with Dogy. 6-4 isn't a bad matchup. It's a marginal advantage that one character has, not a ****ing mountain-like one. It's still very winnable for the guy who is at a disadvantage.

And 18s, I feel your pain. Dogy's Kirby has taken me for a ride a couple of times.

>____>

Smooth Criminal

Edit(s): OMG Typos. Leave me alone

 

[SuperToughPinkPuff]

Wtf at this search tool not working for explorer 8.... okay question:

1) Is there a good way to time fox recovery capes? I just switched to reversed capes which sort of made up for it but im noticing that under pressure in matches i **** it up....and thats not good obv haha. how do you guys time it? Just reaction time?

 

[Dogysamich]

Illusion I dont cape anymore, I just tilt/b.air, whatever.

Firefox/firebird, you have to quickly assess your position vs where they are along with where they're going. I.E., if you're right next to them, you have to cape immediately after the up+b goes off, as opposed to if you're at the end of the line (and far away), then you have to actually wait it out a bit.

If you're going to reverse cape, you really have to keep your invinc so that they'll pass through you. So that's another variable you're adding to the timing.

__

Is that the kind of help you're looking for?

 

[eighteenspikes]

it depends on the distance, generally you want to do it kind of early to space it a bit so you don't get burned. reverse capes are really good though, especially when paired with ledge frames. try bthrowing cpu's to practice, you wont see any variety in the up-b direction but at least itll help you get used to the timing

 

[Vulcan55]

N-Airing illusion is where it's at.
You can fast fall to get them if they come low, or not if they come high.

 

[metashinryu]

i just chidori the illusions,that thing atleast has one use XD

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Kirby can be annoying

then again anyone can be annoying for doc because he's just one of the few that has no easy matchups throughout, imo

 

[SuperToughPinkPuff]

Illusion I dont cape anymore, I just tilt/b.air, whatever.

Firefox/firebird, you have to quickly assess your position vs where they are along with where they're going. I.E., if you're right next to them, you have to cape immediately after the up+b goes off, as opposed to if you're at the end of the line (and far away), then you have to actually wait it out a bit.

If you're going to reverse cape, you really have to keep your invinc so that they'll pass through you. So that's another variable you're adding to the timing.

__

Is that the kind of help you're looking for?

In essence yes haha. THanks Dogy =]

 

[soap]

lol, chidori

 

[Shroomed]

i just chidori the illusions,that thing atleast has one use XD

im calling it this forever now

 

[Dogysamich]

wtf is a chidori.

I'm ****in confused.

****!!!

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Chidori. xD

 

[Vulcan55]

It's from Naruto?
Now I'm never calling anything that...