Christopher Rodriguez
The illest Project M Bowser
naruto fails pretty hard
I just call it the touch of death, whenever im not being lazy. (never)
I just call it the touch of death, whenever im not being lazy. (never)
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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
So in a roundabout way you're trying to say Doc fails, eh?
Christopher Rodriguez
The illest Project M Bowser
lol D:
well I dont know, maybe i'm just being emo about being a doc main, which i'm sure some of you guys have been through
I feel like sometimes I work too hard for a matchup that another. Being a doc main for about two years now i've always noticed this.. I mean, thats not long at all but I feel that even characters that are generally thought to be worse have better matchups sometimes.
..yeah, its just me being emo. I haven't played anyone else but doc in tournament matches forever. I really wouldn't want it any other way, But I'm just wondering if anyone else ever felt like this with doc?
I think I answered your question wrong though
well I dont know, maybe i'm just being emo about being a doc main, which i'm sure some of you guys have been through
I feel like sometimes I work too hard for a matchup that another. Being a doc main for about two years now i've always noticed this.. I mean, thats not long at all but I feel that even characters that are generally thought to be worse have better matchups sometimes.
..yeah, its just me being emo. I haven't played anyone else but doc in tournament matches forever. I really wouldn't want it any other way, But I'm just wondering if anyone else ever felt like this with doc?
I think I answered your question wrong though
When it's all said and done, it really comes down to you. How you feel about it, how you look at the game, how you look at "getting on top", why you play the game, "do you want to work or do you want to win?", etc etc.
That's what it always is.
You have those people who are like "You outta pick the character you like and stay true to that character and rise above." That doenst always works. Especially if the game doesnt allow it. There are some games (imo, melee being one) where you could play a character and deal with a large majority of the cast, but there's a point to where you're going to have to do SOMETHING to cover some ridiculous matchups.
And then you have the other end of the specturm. "Well, if you want to win you better play ______" Cookie cutting. If you can work with cookie cutting, that's perfectly fine. Some people HAVE to do it. Some people just arent innovative and creative enough to take a non-mainstream character and do well. People cant be faulted for that.
The thing that (should) get people frowned upon in that situation is when they play an a** terrible character in a well-established game to "prove this character is really better than everybody thinks". Character fanboyism. That s**t is ********. You do whatever you want to do to make you play the game, whether it's win or have fun. Dont hang the sh*t on simple fanboyism. When those kinds of people step into ANY competitive scene, those are often the ones that drown in pools and watch brackets in their entirety.
___
I really could rant on and on about my belief in this, but it really just amounts to how you look at things.
(Now I'm going to say this, and I will be completely shocked and amazed if somebody doesnt call me out on this)
I've never REALLY looked down on Doc or had a huge gripe about playing him in all the time I've played smash. I mean, I used to (and still do) complain about some things, but I actually look at it as a "me not knowing what to do" as opposed to a "there's no way it can happen" kind of thing.
I'm not saying I'm an "ideal person" or anything; Far from it. But my point is that everybody doesnt always get there. But with some of the things I've learned, I see why people get pissed and go play other characters. Some things you have to do with Doc (and basically every other character that arent the elite 4 and friends) are just ********. That's how this game is.
[/rant]
Im just gunna stop while I can. XD
That's what it always is.
You have those people who are like "You outta pick the character you like and stay true to that character and rise above." That doenst always works. Especially if the game doesnt allow it. There are some games (imo, melee being one) where you could play a character and deal with a large majority of the cast, but there's a point to where you're going to have to do SOMETHING to cover some ridiculous matchups.
And then you have the other end of the specturm. "Well, if you want to win you better play ______" Cookie cutting. If you can work with cookie cutting, that's perfectly fine. Some people HAVE to do it. Some people just arent innovative and creative enough to take a non-mainstream character and do well. People cant be faulted for that.
The thing that (should) get people frowned upon in that situation is when they play an a** terrible character in a well-established game to "prove this character is really better than everybody thinks". Character fanboyism. That s**t is ********. You do whatever you want to do to make you play the game, whether it's win or have fun. Dont hang the sh*t on simple fanboyism. When those kinds of people step into ANY competitive scene, those are often the ones that drown in pools and watch brackets in their entirety.
___
I really could rant on and on about my belief in this, but it really just amounts to how you look at things.
(Now I'm going to say this, and I will be completely shocked and amazed if somebody doesnt call me out on this)
I've never REALLY looked down on Doc or had a huge gripe about playing him in all the time I've played smash. I mean, I used to (and still do) complain about some things, but I actually look at it as a "me not knowing what to do" as opposed to a "there's no way it can happen" kind of thing.
I'm not saying I'm an "ideal person" or anything; Far from it. But my point is that everybody doesnt always get there. But with some of the things I've learned, I see why people get pissed and go play other characters. Some things you have to do with Doc (and basically every other character that arent the elite 4 and friends) are just ********. That's how this game is.
[/rant]
Im just gunna stop while I can. XD
Christopher Rodriguez
The illest Project M Bowser
Thanks for that man.. that really meant alot
Makes me feel great that I main doc, I always loved mario when I was younger and thats why I mained him at first, but I couldn't move on with everyone else so I just picked up Doc after a while. Although I knew Doc wasn't exactly the best of the best, I still went through with it after acceping that.
Thanks again
Makes me feel great that I main doc, I always loved mario when I was younger and thats why I mained him at first, but I couldn't move on with everyone else so I just picked up Doc after a while. Although I knew Doc wasn't exactly the best of the best, I still went through with it after acceping that.
Thanks again
um, I just call it the "CLEEEAAAAAAAR!" as his attack is obviously used to jump start people's hearts XD
Also, naruto is not *quite* as fail as the english dubbed anime makes it out to be. The manga is loads better, especially as you get out of the simple plot exposition/back story. (Still average though).
re: using doc w/o being discouraged... I use doc, and know he's not the best. Despite that, I honestly feel that he can hold his own vs in any matchup. Simply because doc isn't a char that has a clear cut way to beat people (as KK pointed out, we need to actually be on our feet to deal with such "bad" chars as roy), but on the other hand, thinking on our feet is also how we need to win against "good" chars, like falcon, and marth.
Yeah, sometimes I get pissy and angry at using doc (was 4-stocked by my bro earlier this weekend, and he seldom plays), and use "better" chars for a bit, but after awhile, I simply go back to doc. I am luckily able to play against one of the best, more than most people at least, and have to say that it's not like doc is my problem, over 95% of the time. Rather, it's my own mistakes, which I'd make, and be punished for regardless of who I played (in fact, doc has is somewhat easier than some other chars in terms of leeway for making mistakes).
In short, it's out fault, not the chars. And when it stops being our fault, that's when it's time to finally give up on doc. I however challenge anyone of us to prove that he has in fact mastered the game, and it's only doc that makes him lose--if that were the case, you'd be winning and famous w/ a better char.
[/optimism]
Also, naruto is not *quite* as fail as the english dubbed anime makes it out to be. The manga is loads better, especially as you get out of the simple plot exposition/back story. (Still average though).
re: using doc w/o being discouraged... I use doc, and know he's not the best. Despite that, I honestly feel that he can hold his own vs in any matchup. Simply because doc isn't a char that has a clear cut way to beat people (as KK pointed out, we need to actually be on our feet to deal with such "bad" chars as roy), but on the other hand, thinking on our feet is also how we need to win against "good" chars, like falcon, and marth.
Yeah, sometimes I get pissy and angry at using doc (was 4-stocked by my bro earlier this weekend, and he seldom plays), and use "better" chars for a bit, but after awhile, I simply go back to doc. I am luckily able to play against one of the best, more than most people at least, and have to say that it's not like doc is my problem, over 95% of the time. Rather, it's my own mistakes, which I'd make, and be punished for regardless of who I played (in fact, doc has is somewhat easier than some other chars in terms of leeway for making mistakes).
In short, it's out fault, not the chars. And when it stops being our fault, that's when it's time to finally give up on doc. I however challenge anyone of us to prove that he has in fact mastered the game, and it's only doc that makes him lose--if that were the case, you'd be winning and famous w/ a better char.
[/optimism]
metashinryu
Smash Ace
everyone in my town uses chidori as reference to doc fsmash,i love to use black suit just to make it even funnier,dair to chidori is my signature move with doc XD
and yeah,its from naruto.
and yeah,its from naruto.
Pink Shinobi
Smash Ace
Dogysamich, you are quite the wise wizard. Quoted for truth! <3
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
He's Gandalf the Black, clearly.
-nods-
...
-laughs to himself-
Now that I think about, I remember back when Alpha and I were griping about some things, and Alpha came up with the greatest catchphrase ever.
"Dude, we're having a mid-tier life crisis."
XD, Good times.
...
-laughs to himself-
Now that I think about, I remember back when Alpha and I were griping about some things, and Alpha came up with the greatest catchphrase ever.
"Dude, we're having a mid-tier life crisis."
XD, Good times.
Well, it works like this.
A day or two before the poll close, Alpha pointed out the ultimate flaw in the poll. "Real black people dont win anything."
So I did win the poll (i think somebody alted like a maa****er and rigged the polls), but in the end, neither of us actually won. XD
A day or two before the poll close, Alpha pointed out the ultimate flaw in the poll. "Real black people dont win anything."
So I did win the poll (i think somebody alted like a maa****er and rigged the polls), but in the end, neither of us actually won. XD
Oracle
Smash Master
How do I beat link? My friend has an ok one (I kind of suck) and I can't consistently beat him even though he doesn't use AT's. It's really frustrating
ranmaru
Smash Legend
- Joined
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- 13,297
- Switch FC
- SW-0654 7794 0698
Maybe you can grab him and forward throw (more than once) and then fsmash. (A good link told me that might work, dunno though, go ahead and try) And pill alot, since its hard to get through his bombs and ****. He can camp harder than you!
metashinryu
Smash Ace
since he doesnt use ATs i supose he spams proyectile attacks,cape bombs and watch out from arrows and boomerangs,his recovery is good as hell ,but can be stage spiked easily with bair,dont go playing spam throwin stuff cuz your pills doesnt even compare to his arrows,fsmash ****,and when hes recovering spam pills to cause a chain reaction(LOL)and always sweetspot ledges,his up+b is a deadly semi-spike to some if not all recoveries(yours included)
Good god, I ****ing hate tournaments.
I always get stuck with Person A, who I've never played before, and therefore lose, and right after, play Person B, who I already know is way better than me.
Meanwhile my brother always gets the bracket full of byes and people I know I could beat.
People keep telling me that I'm getting a lot better, yet I never actually do any better.
I always get stuck with Person A, who I've never played before, and therefore lose, and right after, play Person B, who I already know is way better than me.
Meanwhile my brother always gets the bracket full of byes and people I know I could beat.
People keep telling me that I'm getting a lot better, yet I never actually do any better.
Shroomed
Smash Master
i dont think you should lose to someone simply because you've never played them before
and ur probably getting better, they're jus getting better at the same rate as you lol
and ur probably getting better, they're jus getting better at the same rate as you lol
Some quick pointers.
1) Link does have a disjointed hitbox (read: sword), yes, so that means you automatically lose the range battle. However, for the most part, anything he tries to do with it leaves him at a disadvantage.
-That being said, Dont make it blatantly obvious when you try to get in on him; and try to bait him into swinging. If you call it, you get in with mixup.
-Except upsmash. If you let him do the entire upsmash, there's very little recovery for it. It's a Link grimy trick.
2) If you're going to stay out and play the projectile war with Link, you have to know some things.
-If you stay on the same level as Link, he outspams you. However, your spam is more "mobile" persay. Stay above his line (i.e. if he's on the floor of PS, you want to stay platform level in a projectile fight). That (for the most part) takes out arrows, and makes bombs less dynamic.
-If you're going to cape bombs, your best option is to cape backwards.
(THIS IS MY CURRENT THEORY ON CAPING BOMBS AND IM STICKING TO IT TILL I BS ANOTHER ONE LOL)
The cape hitbox is strong enough to break a bomb. (It "trades" with it, trading = exploding? I dont know). If you cape backwards, the bomb will reflect off of the reflect box, but wont get hit by the actual cape hitbox (or is less likely to, there's still timing to it).
-Caping everything else comes at your discression (note that if you cape a boomerang, link can IMMEDIATELY throw another one (because it is no longer "his" boomerang))
3) -Dont be afraid to hang out in shield against Link. Yes you have to look for grabs, but he gets punished severly when he misses.
-On the other end of this, dont get grabbed around the.. 120's? I think? I dont know if Link actually has a d.throw d.air on Doc, but I just assume to be safe. I'd imagine he has a D.throw u.air (which would be easier to land than u.throw d.air)
Shroomed
Smash Master
i think link has the adv on doc
or maybe that's jus cuz i play germ
or maybe that's jus cuz i play germ
I actually think Doc has a slight one on Link.
Pros
-Chaingrabs him
-Can outspam him w/ positioning, or at the least combat it with cape
-mobile enough to easily challenge link's sword
-(You're going to laugh at this) Actually wins the midrange game
-Good means to stop Link's awesome recovery
__
Some of the cons would be
-Projectile game is not a big threat vs link
-Complete disadvantage below or above link
-Hard to recover vs link (assuming Link is actually good at timing doc's recovery with projectiles)*
-Has a good move out of shield, the legendary SEEEEEEEEAH (NOT TO MENTION IT'S GOT SOME RANGE ON IT XD)
*Recovering vs a good link is actually pretty comical. (refrains from making a reference that wont be understood here)
Considering how limited Doc's recovery is, Link can do something along the lines of
1) Pull a bomb
2) throw a strong 'rang out (straight or down)
3) hop out and toss the bomb up
4) grab the ledge.
Doc's gunna be comin back lookin like "WOAH!"
Pros
-Chaingrabs him
-Can outspam him w/ positioning, or at the least combat it with cape
-mobile enough to easily challenge link's sword
-(You're going to laugh at this) Actually wins the midrange game
-Good means to stop Link's awesome recovery
__
Some of the cons would be
-Projectile game is not a big threat vs link
-Complete disadvantage below or above link
-Hard to recover vs link (assuming Link is actually good at timing doc's recovery with projectiles)*
-Has a good move out of shield, the legendary SEEEEEEEEAH (NOT TO MENTION IT'S GOT SOME RANGE ON IT XD)
*Recovering vs a good link is actually pretty comical. (refrains from making a reference that wont be understood here)
Considering how limited Doc's recovery is, Link can do something along the lines of
1) Pull a bomb
2) throw a strong 'rang out (straight or down)
3) hop out and toss the bomb up
4) grab the ledge.
Doc's gunna be comin back lookin like "WOAH!"
Oracle
Smash Master
Thanks a bunch dogy
coolest mod ever
But yeah, my friend's kind of a scrub. I'm gonna teach him how to be competitive this summer
coolest mod ever
But yeah, my friend's kind of a scrub. I'm gonna teach him how to be competitive this summer
*looks up*. See, this is why everybody should type in some loud *** color of font. That way, people look at your stuff and not the default WHITE WHITE WHITE WHITE WHITE. XD>.
... my point being that other people gave you advice too.
___
So I was bored and felt like seeing something, cause i've always wondered what actually reaches further, doc's cape or his f.tilt.
Did some bootleg testing (god i ****ing hate how random melee is, it makes testing simple range hard).
And Doc's f.tilt is the longest reaching move he has horizontally. Cape comes in a close and important second because it's disjointed.
all of that isnt the reason why i posted
So i was going to test some more stuff to put in my "random notebook of doc ****" (yes I have one, im too lazy to get up and type **** on a notepad file when im playing).
Get this.
Doc's f.tilt is the furthest reaching. Doc's cape is 2nd.
Guess what's third? No, it's not his d.smash. Not a b.air, and not even a f.air. It's his ****ing jab. (laughs hysterically).
I havent done much beyond that, I dont really care and it's hard to test. I think u.tilt reaches as far as d.smash (mind you im still talking horizontal only, im not talking about covering the diagonal AND horizontal, which u.tilt would win).
But man, there's so much random **** in this game it's not even funny. I never realized that when a character is standing in a "neutral" animation, their hitbox actually moves with them. I dont mean the idle animations, i mean the actual neutral animations.
That's just comical.
... my point being that other people gave you advice too.
___
So I was bored and felt like seeing something, cause i've always wondered what actually reaches further, doc's cape or his f.tilt.
Did some bootleg testing (god i ****ing hate how random melee is, it makes testing simple range hard).
And Doc's f.tilt is the longest reaching move he has horizontally. Cape comes in a close and important second because it's disjointed.
all of that isnt the reason why i posted
So i was going to test some more stuff to put in my "random notebook of doc ****" (yes I have one, im too lazy to get up and type **** on a notepad file when im playing).
Get this.
Doc's f.tilt is the furthest reaching. Doc's cape is 2nd.
Guess what's third? No, it's not his d.smash. Not a b.air, and not even a f.air. It's his ****ing jab. (laughs hysterically).
I havent done much beyond that, I dont really care and it's hard to test. I think u.tilt reaches as far as d.smash (mind you im still talking horizontal only, im not talking about covering the diagonal AND horizontal, which u.tilt would win).
But man, there's so much random **** in this game it's not even funny. I never realized that when a character is standing in a "neutral" animation, their hitbox actually moves with them. I dont mean the idle animations, i mean the actual neutral animations.
That's just comical.
metashinryu
Smash Ace
you wont believe it,i have one of those for captain
also,im gonna try to put a weird a$$ color and fonts to see if people minds my advise,i really gave some good advise for link up there
man think about it. You're scrolling through a page and you see.
white white white white white white white white white white white white BLUEMAN white white white white white white white white white white white white white white REDDUDE white white white white white white white PURPLEPERSON
**** just kinda jumps out.
and then changing fonts?
I wish i actually knew the entire list of fonts you can use (its more than you can access in the options, i know that), cause I've always wondered if i could use some off-the-wall stuff.
white white white white white white white white white white white white BLUEMAN white white white white white white white white white white white white white white REDDUDE white white white white white white white PURPLEPERSON
**** just kinda jumps out.
and then changing fonts?
I wish i actually knew the entire list of fonts you can use (its more than you can access in the options, i know that), cause I've always wondered if i could use some off-the-wall stuff.
Oracle
Smash Master
The joker (or whatever it's called) would be really hard to read, but awesome XD
also thanks metashinryu for the advice as well
also thanks metashinryu for the advice as well
happy now, dogy?
otg
Smash Master
Yeah so, Doc's cool.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
so yea guys i was playing 18spikes on saturday and dk vs. doc is pretty even imo, mayb slight advantage to dk
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
purpleperson hurt my eyes
meh I think Doc has the advantage vs DK, though I only think this because I was beating Kwans DK in friendlies and then he went to fox and destroyed my doc.
Desh
Smash Ace
dk's harder to play than fox.
But theres no point arguing this with me
I do, and always will say fox is one of docs easiest match ups XD
But theres no point arguing this with me
I do, and always will say fox is one of docs easiest match ups XD
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
kwan has a decent DK.... IDK I'd have rather played 18spikes some more this weekend but he (and like, EVERYONE ELSE) left super early on sunday. ;_;
Shroomed
Smash Master
doc can combo the crap outta DK tho
but i guess dk has that up B gimping once doc is off the stage
happy Dogy? lol
but i guess dk has that up B gimping once doc is off the stage
happy Dogy? lol
otg
Smash Master
Yedi you have a hard time with such random ****ign matchups. I dunno, I'm starting to believe that Doc is 50/50 with Fox/Falco again. UpB is just too ****ing good to stop shield pressure.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
I'm gonna use a a different font color to try out Dogy's theory. I'm also not posting about DK, because I haven't fought a good one since I started playing the game on a regular basis. Sorry if you guys feel like I only post to talk about myself. It's just most of the matchups you're covering when I feel like posting I have NO idea about
Disclaimer: Naturally, I don't consider myself a good Doc, so I can't guarantee any of this stuff will work for you. Feel free to tear these ideas up. I'm here to learn. And now, ROYAL BLUE!
Kasumi's Doc Diary (heh)
5/25/09
Dear Diary,
Sometimes I feel like such a crappy Doctor Mario because I'm terrible at bair gimps, and can never get any grabs. But I get lucky real often with missed techs (fsmash KO) and stupid stuff (accidental fair KOs), so it's all good.
My latest stupid thing: Dash Attack to Upsmash for a KO. I got a Falco at around 150% twice with it on Pokemon Stadium in one match. I know I never should have let Falco get to that percent, but that **** works if you ever really need it.
I've actually been throwing fsmash and upsmash out a lot more recently. I'm not saying they're safe, but they're WAY safer than I ever thought they were. A Doc that upsmashes and rolls like I do confuses the hell out of people. I also throw out a lot of fairs. That's less safe but it's gotten me enough big rewards to keep it in my game. My spacing is good.
More stupid stuff: Multiple dash attacks on Falcon. (not sure at what percent it's best for) I'm pretty sure they can double jump out but I've never had one expect me to dash attack under them four times consecutively. Works, but use sparingly or they'll figure it out quick.
Other Falcon stuff: I can say that full hop dairs really do seem to throw off their game. I full hop dair when I'm nowhere near them and they think twice about approaching. Then I double jump and full hop dair again. Something I'm still experimenting with is full jump caping a nair approach and fast falling into nair or something. Doubt it'll work. Also I actually really like using dash attacks in general in this matchup, but I don't have anything specific other than the above to say about that. Try it though.
UpB: I have been using UpB as an attack a LOT recently, and I'm pretty rarely punished for it. It's not Samus' UpB, but it's certainly not a bad one. Anyone tried it on a Falcon approach at higher percents?
Caping: I need to actually remember some of the cool things I've done with the cape, so I can post them. As I stated before, I cape a lot now that I know how huge the hitbox is.
While it won't help any of you, I'm also proud to say I can finally cape people well under pressure, and after three years of playing this game competitively, I finally started crouch-canceling.
But now this post is getting longer, less helpful (since I lack specific examples now) and more egocentric so I'm gonna sign off.
Edit: Ftilt destroys, but you probably all know that already.
You know something? Part of me feels like creating a Doc diary topic that I update every time I go to a smashfest.
Disclaimer: Naturally, I don't consider myself a good Doc, so I can't guarantee any of this stuff will work for you. Feel free to tear these ideas up. I'm here to learn. And now, ROYAL BLUE!
Kasumi's Doc Diary (heh)
5/25/09
Dear Diary,
Sometimes I feel like such a crappy Doctor Mario because I'm terrible at bair gimps, and can never get any grabs. But I get lucky real often with missed techs (fsmash KO) and stupid stuff (accidental fair KOs), so it's all good.
My latest stupid thing: Dash Attack to Upsmash for a KO. I got a Falco at around 150% twice with it on Pokemon Stadium in one match. I know I never should have let Falco get to that percent, but that **** works if you ever really need it.
I've actually been throwing fsmash and upsmash out a lot more recently. I'm not saying they're safe, but they're WAY safer than I ever thought they were. A Doc that upsmashes and rolls like I do confuses the hell out of people. I also throw out a lot of fairs. That's less safe but it's gotten me enough big rewards to keep it in my game. My spacing is good.
More stupid stuff: Multiple dash attacks on Falcon. (not sure at what percent it's best for) I'm pretty sure they can double jump out but I've never had one expect me to dash attack under them four times consecutively. Works, but use sparingly or they'll figure it out quick.
Other Falcon stuff: I can say that full hop dairs really do seem to throw off their game. I full hop dair when I'm nowhere near them and they think twice about approaching. Then I double jump and full hop dair again. Something I'm still experimenting with is full jump caping a nair approach and fast falling into nair or something. Doubt it'll work. Also I actually really like using dash attacks in general in this matchup, but I don't have anything specific other than the above to say about that. Try it though.
UpB: I have been using UpB as an attack a LOT recently, and I'm pretty rarely punished for it. It's not Samus' UpB, but it's certainly not a bad one. Anyone tried it on a Falcon approach at higher percents?
Caping: I need to actually remember some of the cool things I've done with the cape, so I can post them. As I stated before, I cape a lot now that I know how huge the hitbox is.
While it won't help any of you, I'm also proud to say I can finally cape people well under pressure, and after three years of playing this game competitively, I finally started crouch-canceling.
But now this post is getting longer, less helpful (since I lack specific examples now) and more egocentric so I'm gonna sign off.
Edit: Ftilt destroys, but you probably all know that already.
You know something? Part of me feels like creating a Doc diary topic that I update every time I go to a smashfest.
metashinryu
Smash Ace
yeah its true,first thing i saw was purpleperson there XD
how do you put them?like,you can keep them there and they stay there every time you type(if that,how?)
or you have to colorfontisize them everytime?