Character Competitive Impressions

[G-Guy]

calm down, he said opinionated tier list. as in, not to be taken seriously ;-)

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

calm down, he said opinionated tier list. as in, not to be taken seriously ;-)

Bruh, that **** got me hype as **** LOL XD

 

[TriTails]

Is Duck Hunt really that high? I mean, yeah, he has great defensive game (Which, I just Fireball'd two of them and dodge the other one), but his recovery is uncancellable, his smash attacks... are okay I guess, but I don't see him excel at melee attacks. His defensive game isn't all that great IMO.

Wait, can anyone link me to a Duck Hunt pro? SHOW ME YOUR MOVES! Duck Hunt!

 

[Pazx]

I honestly think Yoshi should be put in the Not Ranked section for now if people are gonna make more tier lists in this thread. When the likes of characters that're much MUCH lower like Link or Samus are bringing in results, yet Yoshi isn't...

Yeah I'm sure people get where I'm going with this, people at least see everyone above lower middle played in tournaments/during APEX the past few months but where's all the Yoshi results if people honestly think he's worth keeping in top 10 and sometimes (this list included) above characters like Pikachu Ness and Luigi?

Luigi is probably top 15 but overrated nonetheless, 20xx Pikachu > Yoshi, Ness is probably not a top tier threat in this game (and certainly won't be once people figure out that shielding isn't the best option all of the time). It's not like Pikachu or Ness are getting results, and I'd say NAKAT dropped Ness almost entirely for a reason.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Is Duck Hunt really that high? I mean, yeah, he has great defensive game (Which, I just Fireball'd two of them and dodge the other one), but his recovery is uncancellable, his smash attacks... are okay I guess, but I don't see him excel at melee attacks. His defensive game isn't all that great IMO.

Wait, can anyone link me to a Duck Hunt pro? SHOW ME YOUR MOVES! Duck Hunt!

MVD at APEX.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Luigi is probably top 15 but overrated nonetheless, 20xx Pikachu > Yoshi, Ness is probably not a top tier threat in this game (and certainly won't be once people figure out that shielding isn't the best option all of the time). It's not like Pikachu or Ness are getting results, and I'd say NAKAT dropped Ness almost entirely for a reason.

NAKAT still got some decent results with Ness before he dropped him, and ESAM as well with Pika before quitting. But NAKAT picking up Pikachu just means future results with a little fox on the side.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Brood also gets good placings with Duck Hunt.

 

[Nobie]

NAKAT still got some decent results with Ness before he dropped him, and ESAM as well with Pika before quitting. But NAKAT picking up Pikachu just means future results with a little fox on the side.

You guys gotta stop assuming people have dropped characters when they decide to use someone else for a few matchhes. Didn't this same thing ahppen with Nairo?

 

[Sinister Slush]

You guys gotta stop assuming people have dropped characters when they decide to use someone else for a few matchhes. Didn't this same thing ahppen with Nairo?

I'm not assuming, I'm going by what others are saying which was focus on Pika and fox mostly (which he did at the tournament where he lost to Ally's mario mostly)
Otherwise I don't care about nakat enough to follow what he does.

 

[Thinkaman]

Bold claim: WFT is top 10. An off-stage game that probably beats Puff and Sheik, fantastic juggle game, 2 spammable projectiles (planking with header/sun salutation is quite good), deep breathing, the ability to heal and brilliant hitboxes on most moves. I don't buy into the "WFT can't hit anyone" mindset, even if it was somewhat true (it's not, stop saying it is) I think she could be the D3 of this game in that she might struggle to touch Diddy and co. but absolutely invalidates worse characters, particularly the heavies. This isn't even considering custom moves.

Rarely when someone says they are about to make a BOLD CLAIM do I actually expect them to make a bold claim.

But then you rolled up the the boldest. Hats off, sir.

 

[etecoon]

I'm trying to pick the two or three characters I plan on maining, as I've finally been able to set aside more time for video games. I strongly believe that, with a roster this size, and with what we've seen in Melee over the last year, that anyone seriously trying to compete in tourneys needs more than one character.

Right now I've just tried to break up the characters I'm interested in into groups, and then pick one from each. The first group I'm working with is DK, Ganondorf, and DeDeDe, with DK in the early lead.

I find myself not grabbing nearly as much as other players. What characters don't really rely on grab setups?

It happens in Melee because even the best characters have losing matchups to each other, and even then going solo Fox is still very viable. Who do Sheik and Diddy lose to?

 

[Antonykun]

@Nairo still believes Robin to be high tier. I think we should discuss how Robin could be high tier. I know it's not looking pretty for him/her now, but it could be possible that playing him/her 'safe' and read-based could make Robin safe enough to actually use. Nairo believes that you don't need to be fast or mobile to get reads and get the payoff associated with successful reads.

This goes back to my statement earlier in this thread that Robin must be played like a heavy, like Ganondorf and such. You don't have speed and your grab has a lot of endlag, so you've gotta be on-point with your reads and punishes.

I'm convinced @Nairo could pick up Mii Swordfighter and do really well if not actually win the tourney with them.
But I still think Robin is good, it's just that he's slow and needs precision ala Greninja. Also you seriously you don't have to be fast to make good reads. If we did then Ganon would be as bad as Brawl Ganon.

 

[Smog Frog]

am i the only one who gets incredibly stressed out when i fight a ganon?

 

[Tagxy]

Heavies are and probably always will be a huge pain in the rear end for pika even if he wins most/all of the MUs. I still think pikachu runs circles around charizard in neutral and can play safer and has safer tools then people realize, but like AA was saying Charizard still has things he can do and it also doesnt change the fact that a rage flare blitz when pikas at 70% can ruin his life. Pikachu can be safe with QA 9/10 times but that one time he isnt RIP. Charizard may not be fast by comparison (in terms of overall movement) but iirc he has some of the games best priority (as a lot of heavies do) so its a matter of speed vs power. Kind of like fox in melee Pikachu is the glass canon of smash 4.

My tier list:
S+
Sheik
Diddy Kong
Rosalina & Luma
Yoshi

S
Lucario
Sonic the Hedgehog
Zero Suit Samus
Greninja

A+
Cpt. Falcon
Marth
Ness
Robin
Link
Lucina
Fox McCloud

A
Duck Hunt
Dark Pit
Shulk
Toon Link
Mario
Pit
Little Mac
Pikachu

B
Ike
Peach
Jigglypuff
Palutena
Mega Man
R.O.B.
Samus Aran
Dr. Mario
Falco Lombardi
Mr. Game and Watch

C
Kirby
Villager
Pac-Man
Luigi
Koopalings
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Zelda
Ganondorf

D
Charizard
Wario
Bowser
Wii Fit Trainer
Olimar
Donkey Kong

Looks like opinionated tier lists are being constructed! Mind if I join in?

S-TIER


A-TIER


B-TIER


C-TIER


D-TIER


This should be fun...

Im down for having tier lists now since theyre more informed and can bring useful discussion, but can we please NOT have tier lists like this with NO information? As the posts after these show all they produced is comments like "What?!?! X character isnt Y Tier?"

 

[Runic_SSB]

am i the only one who gets incredibly stressed out when i fight a ganon?

He is intimidating.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ganon is terrifying, and it's only made worse by the realization, "****, I might lose to one of the worst characters in the game!"

 

[Nabbitnator]

Heavies are and probably always will be a huge pain in the rear end for pika even if he wins most/all of the MUs. I still think pikachu runs circles around charizard in neutral and can play safer and has safer tools then people realize, but like AA was saying Charizard still has things he can do and it also doesnt change the fact that a rage flare blitz when pikas at 70% can ruin his life. Pikachu can be safe with QA 9/10 times but that one time he isnt RIP. Charizard may not be fast by comparison (in terms of overall movement) but iirc he has some of the games best priority (as a lot of heavies do) so its a matter of speed vs power. Kind of like fox in melee Pikachu is the glass canon of smash 4. I also think 20XX pika might beat Diddy and Sheik which would make this more appropriate.


Im down for having tier lists now since theyre more informed and can bring useful discussion, but can we please NOT have tier lists like this with NO information? As the posts after these show all they produced is comments like "What?!?! X character isnt Y Tier?"

I've seen so many tier lists its just agitating to me. I'd rather see a match up chart that shows that X character has positive match ups against Y characters and poor match ups against Z characters. I find it better then just listing characters. Also if needed you could make a more accurate tier list stemmed from that.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, at this point, Matchup Charts are far, far more useful than anything resembling a tier list. Do we have a doc for that? Like, a spreadsheet we can work off of?

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah, at this point, Matchup Charts are far, far more useful than anything resembling a tier list. Do we have a doc for that? Like, a spreadsheet we can work off of?

Very difficult to do since there's 51 characters and not enough experienced minds to fill it out.

 

[Smog Frog]

cant you just PM it to people who main a character to fill out their row? (like i could give it to dabuz for him to fill out rosalina's/olimar's row, etc.)

 

[Luco]

For a while now the biggest thing I've been thinking about that likely hurts Ness' viability isn't actually his recovery (people really over-exaggerate how much of a weakness it is when in truth the risk v reward on it is enough to demand it some respect) but moreso his lacking defensive game in certain areas, most namely juggling. Ness hates being juggled, Dair just doesn't cut it and aside from the odd PKT2 straight into the ground (risky in so many ways and no Ness main really ever tries it for that reason alone), most Ness mains either have to AD and try to AD cancel into Nair to be safe-ish (eh) or try to get back to the ledge to reset. Bair on shield is great no doubt, the sweetspot on it is near unpunishable by most of the cast (due to the KB on the sweetspot when shielded, especially on chars like Luigi) and the fact that Ness lies down when he hits the ground using it making him very difficult to grab means its a fantastic landing option... but it's not enough really, and I feel this is one of the few cases where Ness' average mobility limits him in a significant way.

I don't think Ness will go lower than high tier (I personally believe he is still a massive threat) but I'm beginning to have doubts that he's only right below Diddy, Sheik and co.

He's still a fantastic character and I love him. <3

 

[Antonykun]

Yeah, at this point, Matchup Charts are far, far more useful than anything resembling a tier list. Do we have a doc for that? Like, a spreadsheet we can work off of?

Ammusingly I made an MU chart for villager yesterday but its super beta right now so I'm too shy to show it here.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Rarely when someone says they are about to make a BOLD CLAIM do I actually expect them to make a bold claim.

But then you rolled up the the boldest. Hats off, sir.

if bold means absolute lunacy then we are on the same page.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Heavies are and probably always will be a huge pain in the rear end for pika even if he wins most/all of the MUs. I still think pikachu runs circles around charizard in neutral and can play safer and has safer tools then people realize, but like AA was saying Charizard still has things he can do and it also doesnt change the fact that a rage flare blitz when pikas at 70% can ruin his life. Pikachu can be safe with QA 9/10 times but that one time he isnt RIP. Charizard may not be fast by comparison (in terms of overall movement) but iirc he has some of the games best priority (as a lot of heavies do) so its a matter of speed vs power. Kind of like fox in melee Pikachu is the glass canon of smash 4.

True. Just when you think you've beaten Ganon, he breaks out of his chains, punches you out in one hit, and pulls a sword out of his chest. Dude's a bad man. (This is actually a good analogy for most of Ganon's wins vs. Pika, so it's not off-topic.)

 

[M15t3R E]

I've seen so many tier lists its just agitating to me. I'd rather see a match up chart that shows that X character has positive match ups against Y characters and poor match ups against Z characters. I find it better then just listing characters. Also if needed you could make a more accurate tier list stemmed from that.

This player speaks the truth! Although it's true that we do not have the ability to make a well-informed MU chart yet either, I believe it is closer on the horizon than a full-blown tier list.

 

[FullMoon]

MUs are also very hard to pin down. It really depends from player to player a lot and it can be tough to reach a consensus, some people might find a MU difficult because they don't have much experience with it, some might find it easy because they either know the MU or have gone against people who don't know the MU very well. There's a lot of variables that makes a consensus on MUs pretty hard to reach.

And then there are cases like me where I'm utterly hopeless against R.O.B even though from what I've heard the MU is probably even or maybe even slightly in Greninja's favor, and I've gone against plenty of R.O.Bs

 

[M15t3R E]

MUs are also very hard to pin down. It really depends from player to player a lot and it can be tough to reach a consensus, some people might find a MU difficult because they don't have much experience with it, some might find it easy because they either know the MU or have gone against people who don't know the MU very well. There's a lot of variables that makes a consensus on MUs pretty hard to reach.

And then there are cases like me where I'm utterly hopeless against R.O.B even though from what I've heard the MU is probably even or maybe even slightly in Greninja's favor, and I've gone against plenty of R.O.Bs

I know most of the character boards are discussing match-ups currently. Perhaps once this process has gone on a while longer and we receive more big tournament results we'll be ready.

 

[Radical Larry]

am i the only one who gets incredibly stressed out when i fight a ganon?

If you keep getting Flame Choked on last stock and Wizard Footed when trying to combo constantly, as well as seeing multiple U-Tilts and Warlock Punches, that's me.

Ganondorf is a very, very intimidating and actually viable character. If he can land a grab on you (it's not that hard actually), he can D-Throw > F-Air, U-Throw > U-Air, etc. His throws have so much potential, and he has the most powerful throw in terms of damage, which is his F-Throw (13% damage and can lead up to combos). Sure, you may bring up the argument he has the worst grab in the game, but he doesn't, his grab game may be bad, but certainly not the worse (I miss more grabs with Falcon than I do Ganon). His grab game can extend further to his Flame Choke, specifically his non-techable aerial FC, which can lead up to some nasty roll chases. The most likely thing is that the opponent will indeed try to attack, so a good, quick SH D-Air should do the trick due to its slow, but reliable speed.

And his Wizard's Foot > Wizard's Foot ground combo, which leads off the edge, is amazing at moderate percents, and it's an entirely viable gimping move due to this fact: the first attack sends the opponent off stage, and if you time it right, the second attack should eat their second jump up and send them even further back. Now, this method definitely doesn't work with Fox, Falco, Kirby Cast, Jigglypuff or certain others, but to characters like Pit, Dark Pit and Rosalina, if Ganon gets back on the stage, he will edge-guard like no tomorrow on you until you're KO'd, and will NOT let you get back on the stage. Sometimes, on characters like Duck Hunt, he can trick the opponent by using U-Air and then recovering, just to ensure an insulting edge-guard. Oh, and don't get me started on the Sourspot of Ganondorf's D-Air; that thing's more of a sweetspot.

No one really knows the usefulness of the U-Tilt, other than being a very powerful vertical-horizontal KO tool and an instant shield breaker. However, it's perfect for certain characters trying to get back on the stage, especially those not careful enough to even recover correctly, and its range is beyond menacing, as it covers a lot of range horizontally and vertically. This is also a good tool for mind games, especially at the edge, again, since if an opponent is trying to recover, and gets up on the stage, Ganondorf can simply turn around and activate the U-Tilt.

His combos are plentiful, and a tad underrated. Like above, he has D-Throw > F-Air, and U-Throw > U-Air, but he has, like explained by everyone, Dash Combos. All of his aerials can be used with Dash Attack, especially the mainly used U-Air. There are many other ones, like D-Tilt > F-Tilt and such, but people have to experiment and implement. Ever tried Dash Attack > U-Air > F-Air? Quite useful for racking up the damage quickly.

Customs...where do I even begin; his 2nd N-Spec, Warlock Blade, is a great pressure tool, as well as a fast and efficient attack, with a chance of breaking the shields off opponents. This is especially deadly to Jigglypuff, obviously, but there is so much potential, such as the bettered use of the combo, N-Spec > U-Tilt, if the shield is broken, because the U-Tilt becomes the new Warlock Punch. Then there's his Wizard's Dropkick, which gives his shoddy recovery a better chance, as its horizontal distance goes well with his vertical recovery U-Spec. If Dark Fists is involved, he has a better and more powerful recovery and attack. I'd prefer that moveset over any other, unless I want early kills by the D-Spec 1.

I might try making an MU chart for Ganondorf myself, and I enjoy using him in the game; he's a very viable character to me, and you guys do not know what you are missing with him. He's a really great and steel-solid character. Sure, he lacks in range, but it's dangerous to go against him in Footsies, especially when he lands the hit. His range is compensated by certain customs, though. An annoying and a viable character, something I enjoy playing; not deserving of low tier.

What are your thoughts on Ganondorf?

 

[Ffamran]

am i the only one who gets incredibly stressed out when i fight a ganon?

Not really. When I fight Ganondorf, I take things slower and think more about what I'm doing. This might be because I play as Ganondorf, Ike, and Falco who aren't exactly fast, so I end up trying to stay more calm and punish heavy while also keeping pressure.

I guess it's the same thing about Greninja, Duck Hunt, Bowser, and Pac-Man. Take strides and figure out their game plan without screwing up. Greninja likes to ambush, Duck Hunt hides kill options by walling you out with projectiles, Bowser seems intimidatating with his dash speed, and Pac-Man's setups aren't that scary if you keep your cool.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

Is Zelda a good character? I know she has a bad design (tall and light) and her up smash was nerfed to hell, but I haven't heard/seen anyone analyze her competitive viability yet.

 

[dragontamer]

@Nairo still believes Robin to be high tier. I think we should discuss how Robin could be high tier. I know it's not looking pretty for him/her now, but it could be possible that playing him/her 'safe' and read-based could make Robin safe enough to actually use. Nairo believes that you don't need to be fast or mobile to get reads and get the payoff associated with successful reads.

This goes back to my statement earlier in this thread that Robin must be played like a heavy, like Ganondorf and such. You don't have speed and your grab has a lot of endlag, so you've gotta be on-point with your reads and punishes.

Robin is my secondary, so I'm not as good with him as my main. But in my experience, I do think Robin is being slept on. Like PacMan, Robin plays a very mean footsie game, and I rarely feel as if I have a disadvantaged fight. Instead, when I lose, I feel like I made a lot of mistakes. So my instinct whenever I lose is "blame myself" instead of the character.

Robin is played not like a heavy, but like a zoning character. Dhalsim from Street Fighter 4 comes to mind whenever I'm playing Robin, and Dhalsim is of course an excellent (if different) character in his own right.

The concept of Robin is "space control". Robin is all about just throwing out hitboxes, and watching the opponent run into them or around them. Robin forces the opponent to shield heavily on approaches, but also has a good command grab that can "deal" a 30% damage differential. (~15% heal, ~15% damage). It's a threat, and there really isn't any fully safe option against Robin. Robin is NOT played like a heavy. Heavies punish mistakes with powerful strikes, while Robin's punishes are often Jab, FTilt or DTilt. The difference: Gannondorf's FTilt actually kills you. LSSword attacks should be used only in cases of very hard reads and aerials.

Opponents are weakest when moving. When Robin, you're throwing out hitboxes to nullify their movement options. You need to be counting every jump the opponent does, threatening hitboxes on their landing forcing double-jumps, counting your opponent's reactions and seeing how they weave around your projectiles. Robin can play very safe and prevent grounded approaches with ElFire, Thunder, and ElThunder alone, leaving your mind open to counting your opponent's reactions and reading your opponent.

Seriously, I play Robin by throwing out attacks and then play a counting game. There's one roll, oh, two rolls. Third roll. That time he shielded. Hmm, four, five, a-hah, found the pattern. This opponent is a roller. Or a jumper. Or a shielder. Robin's projectiles are used to read the opponent, not to actually strike them

Speaking of Aerials, LSaerials are amongst the best attacks in the game in speed and power. Robin is a major threat in the air.

Here's Robin's basic gameplan:

1. Throw out a hitbox. Usually, its micro-thunder, El-Thunder, ArcThunder, ElFire, or toss a book. So many projectile options...
2. Opponent shields, rolls, or jumps. -- Robin's options force a reaction from the opponent.
3a. If your opponent shields too much: Nosfaratsu, ArcThunder, and ElFire. These all lead to heavy shield pressure and a severe advantage in Robin's favor.
3b. Rolls -- Roll punish with DSmash, FSmash (for forward rolls), and Elfire (Sidesteps), ElThunder / ArcThunder (Back Rolls)
3c. On jumps, beat out the opponent with LSUAir or LSFair. Seriously, those two moves win aerial combat alone.

If the opponent is very far away from you, charge up to Thoron (if in Killing Range) / ArcThunder (for combo damage). I promise you, they'll charge in on you if you smack them with those powerful electric attacks. It is a mistake for opponents to let you charge up.

Forward rolls beat ElFire, but conditioning your opponent to forward roll is super-dangerous due to Robin's powerful FSmash and DSmash (I don't think these are fast enough to be used in reaction to rolls unless you precharge, but the risk remains there). I use Jab, FTilt and DTilt (which can be used on reaction) until I'm confident that the opponent has made a bad habit out of forward rolls.

Robin is an excellent zoning character, and seems to have options regardless of the opponent's choices. He plays like Rosaluma or PacMan, with hitboxes all over the place covering the opponent's options. The main difference is his wtf-amazing aerials which really discourage opponents from jumping. (LSUair beats out damn near everything)

Even when Robin's projectile game is beat, his disjoints and range are quite large. I don't actually feel like I have a range disadvantage vs Marth in the Air as long as I got that Levin Sword available. And the wide sweeping arcs of LSFair (which acts like a DAir) and LSUAir (which is a BAir, UAir, and FAir simultaneously effectively) make Robin's air game just... really good.

Robin's LSUair makes Diddy's UAir look like some weaksauce. That move is _threatening_. I don't think there's any character that can safely attack "down" onto Robin's LSUair... especially when you consider how wide and disjointed the hitbox is.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

If you keep getting Flame Choked on last stock and Wizard Footed when trying to combo constantly, as well as seeing multiple U-Tilts and Warlock Punches, that's me.

Ganondorf is a very, very intimidating and actually viable character. If he can land a grab on you (it's not that hard actually), he can D-Throw > F-Air, U-Throw > U-Air, etc. His throws have so much potential, and he has the most powerful throw in terms of damage, which is his F-Throw (13% damage and can lead up to combos). Sure, you may bring up the argument he has the worst grab in the game, but he doesn't, his grab game may be bad, but certainly not the worse (I miss more grabs with Falcon than I do Ganon). His grab game can extend further to his Flame Choke, specifically his non-techable aerial FC, which can lead up to some nasty roll chases. The most likely thing is that the opponent will indeed try to attack, so a good, quick SH D-Air should do the trick due to its slow, but reliable speed.

And his Wizard's Foot > Wizard's Foot ground combo, which leads off the edge, is amazing at moderate percents, and it's an entirely viable gimping move due to this fact: the first attack sends the opponent off stage, and if you time it right, the second attack should eat their second jump up and send them even further back. Now, this method definitely doesn't work with Fox, Falco, Kirby Cast, Jigglypuff or certain others, but to characters like Pit, Dark Pit and Rosalina, if Ganon gets back on the stage, he will edge-guard like no tomorrow on you until you're KO'd, and will NOT let you get back on the stage. Sometimes, on characters like Duck Hunt, he can trick the opponent by using U-Air and then recovering, just to ensure an insulting edge-guard. Oh, and don't get me started on the Sourspot of Ganondorf's D-Air; that thing's more of a sweetspot.

No one really knows the usefulness of the U-Tilt, other than being a very powerful vertical-horizontal KO tool and an instant shield breaker. However, it's perfect for certain characters trying to get back on the stage, especially those not careful enough to even recover correctly, and its range is beyond menacing, as it covers a lot of range horizontally and vertically. This is also a good tool for mind games, especially at the edge, again, since if an opponent is trying to recover, and gets up on the stage, Ganondorf can simply turn around and activate the U-Tilt.

His combos are plentiful, and a tad underrated. Like above, he has D-Throw > F-Air, and U-Throw > U-Air, but he has, like explained by everyone, Dash Combos. All of his aerials can be used with Dash Attack, especially the mainly used U-Air. There are many other ones, like D-Tilt > F-Tilt and such, but people have to experiment and implement. Ever tried Dash Attack > U-Air > F-Air? Quite useful for racking up the damage quickly.

Customs...where do I even begin; his 2nd N-Spec, Warlock Blade, is a great pressure tool, as well as a fast and efficient attack, with a chance of breaking the shields off opponents. This is especially deadly to Jigglypuff, obviously, but there is so much potential, such as the bettered use of the combo, N-Spec > U-Tilt, if the shield is broken, because the U-Tilt becomes the new Warlock Punch. Then there's his Wizard's Dropkick, which gives his shoddy recovery a better chance, as its horizontal distance goes well with his vertical recovery U-Spec. If Dark Fists is involved, he has a better and more powerful recovery and attack. I'd prefer that moveset over any other, unless I want early kills by the D-Spec 1.

I might try making an MU chart for Ganondorf myself, and I enjoy using him in the game; he's a very viable character to me, and you guys do not know what you are missing with him. He's a really great and steel-solid character. Sure, he lacks in range, but it's dangerous to go against him in Footsies, especially when he lands the hit. His range is compensated by certain customs, though. An annoying and a viable character, something I enjoy playing; not deserving of low tier.

What are your thoughts on Ganondorf?

I think Ganondorf is a sleeper. Initially, due to him not getting buffs to the degree of Bowser as expected by many, it was thought that he would remain in the low or bottom tier.

However, I think Ganon is viable and has some winnable MUs. I've turned against customs recently, but if they were legal, that flying Wizard's Foot would fix Ganon's main problem, which is his lack of horizontal recovery options. Ganon is very easily gimped, and that alone gives most players the idea that he's bottom tier. His tournament results might show this too, since Smash 4's metagame involves heavy off-stage presence. That's something Ganon is forced to omit from his aggression because he's not safe at all once he leaves the stage.

What I think should happen to Ganon is a buff in power to Dark Dive. My friend OT said it best (and this is just a paraphrase): "How is Ganon latching onto you, electrocuting the **** out of you, and then causing you to ****ing explode not a kill move?" It makes no sense how weak Dark Dive is. If it got buffed, characters attempting to gimp him would constantly fear stage spikes and attempt fewer edgeguards.

Flame Choke can score sacrificial KOs but that's about as bad for Ganon as it is for the opponent unless you have 150+% and your opponent has barely any damage.

Have you ever tried ledge trump -> u-air? I feel like that would work really well for edgeguarding/gimping certain characters.

Imo Ganon is looking to be very solid. He has true combos (even if they involve only a few hits, they do incredible amounts of damage) and can confirm KOs, and if you know how to read with him and mix things up with Flame Choke, you'll wreck everyone's ****.

 

[Noa.]

I'll share how it seems that most Ness mains feel about our matchups against the higher tiered characters. Obviously it's really early in the game but this seems to be the impression for now.

-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:

Ness has a small disadvantage against what some would consider the best four characters in the game. These disadvantages aren't huge, but it can make it difficult to always play at a small disadvantage against other characters in bracket.

In terms of results the best Ness players are Nakat, FOW, and Shaky, and they all perform well in their respective regions. They all made it past the first wave of Apex pools, but only Nakat made it to top 16. At smaller local levels, Ness is very popular. There are lots of Ness players across the US that place very well with him at smaller events. You can just go through the submitted brackets on smashboards and see tons of Ness players in top 8 spots. So he's very popular and mid and lower levels. Just not as much in higher levels, though he stills see success there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think people overestimate Robin's control game.

ArcFire, ElThunder and ArcThunder can be dodged on reaction then Robin is open to punishment.

 

[Macchiato]

Is Zelda a good character? I know she has a bad design (tall and light) and her up smash was nerfed to hell, but I haven't heard/seen anyone analyze her competitive viability yet.

She's great like 50% kills, lots of combos, safe recovery. Mid is probably a safe guess for her

 

[Emblem Lord]

Zelda is certainly not mid tier.

Low tier easy.

Also...combos? What?

 

[Ffamran]

Fantastic... The feelings of the MUs that I started ended up with Falco being disadvantaged or even against , , , and. There hasn't been much besides back and forth explaining his and 's game plan and the and / threads are dated since they were created by someone else which makes me wonder how should I reignite the Dr. Mario and Mario MU discussions if they lumped together like that. With this trend, I swear if Falco ends up being at a disadvantage to ...

The sad part is it's probably true like how although Ganondorf will have disadvantaged MUs, the advantage state he has can override them. Falco doesn't have that, so... yeah...

 

[Sinister Slush]

Low % combos with Utilt and Dtilt

 

[Macchiato]

Zelda is certainly not mid tier.

Low tier easy.

Also...combos? What?

ugh, dthrow to bair
dtilt to fair
dtilt to uair
dthrow to uair
dtilt to dsmash
dthrow to nair
dtilt 3x to dthrow to nair/bair
dtilt to jab to dash attack
utilt to nair
jab to dthrow to nair/bair
uthrow to farore's wind
dtilt to JC farores wind
dair to utilt
dair to usmash
uthrow to usmash (fox only)

 

[dragontamer]

ArcFire, ElThunder and ArcThunder can be dodged on reaction then Robin is open to punishment.

Elfire yes. The *thunders, no. Not in my experience. It is a mistake for Robin to overuse Elfire. The "Thunder" series has very low cooldown, and opponents usually don't get strong "punishes" against me.

Opponents are usually in a "SH Fair" situation though, which is often a disadvantaged position for Robin. So Shiek, who's SH Fair seems to beat out Robin will force Robin into some major pressure when Shiek SH over an Elthunder. However, Thunder and ElThunder seem to come out too fast for reaction at the footsie distance I'm talking about... so a preemptive SH Fair from Robin is the strategy at that particular footsie distance IMO.

(Shiek SH over the ElThunder, Fairs the landing, forcing Robin to shield, and then Shiek has a Grab/Jab mixup to continue the pressure). The mental issue here however is very similar to Street Fighter Fireballs. Robin can beat out any SH game by preempting the opponent's attacks with powerful aerials of his own, or anti-air with (lulz) LSDSmash or UTilts, or a preemptive aerial (SH Nair, SH LSFair)

The opponent can spend a movement option to dodge out the *Thunder. Usually either a roll or a jump. From there on out, your opponent's movement is limited, and the favor is in Robin.

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As for Zelda... she is mid tier on my experience. She doesn't have much representation, but she has the 2nd most powerful FAir off of 9 frames. KOs at like 85%. Bair is KO at 81% and is off of 6-frames. The landing lag isn't that bad either.

I've got a buddy who can consistently land the Fair / Bair. Its... very threatening. Early Invincibility on neutral-B also causes issues for a lot of "pressure" characters. A full invincible attack + reflect is actually an amazing defense option. Up-B is a great KO option as well, and messes with my "Zoning" characters all too often.